Game of Thrones *Spoiler* Thread

[keg in kc]

There's been some recent confusion with the old spoiler thread, so I'm kicking off a new one for tonight's premiere. This is going to be the one for folks who've read all the books. So anything anybody might want to talk about is in bounds. Suffice to say, if you haven't read the books, you'll probably want to stay out of here until you do...

I'll bump the old spoiler-free thread shortly in case anybody's interested. For future reference the link to that one is here

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by keg in kc

Yeah. And in doing so he's made her storyline boring, which seemed impossible after book 3.

GRRM sometimes gets too focused on trying to make his characters real at the expense of story-telling. Dany is a perfect example. In the books she is a 14 or 15 year old girl, it's only natural she would moon over some dreamy guy and lose focus, so she does. With Tyrion, killing his dad and shae really screws up his psyche and makes him less fun to read about in book 5. The good news is they both got interesting again at the very end, so hopefully book 6 will be awesome.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

Catelyn has done her share of stupid/awful things. She convinced/forced Ned to accept the position of Hand.

This was forseeably stupid or awful? Really?? It may have been unwise, but at the very least all she did was try to be persuasive. She didn't force Ned into doing anything.

She took Tyrion hostage without any proof of guilt, resulting in Ned being attacked and injured, and his guards being killed, as well as giving Tywin a reason to burn the Riverlands.

Again, unwise. Not evil. Not badly intentioned. Just a very poor job of foreseeing consequences for her actions. Also possibly based on a lack of understanding of just how much power/influence the Lannisters had at King's Landing, compared to the Hand himself. Also unforeseeable was Ned's resignation as Hand, which rendered him far more vulnerable to attack by Jaime.

She allowed her crazy sister to take over the entire trial situation, resulting in her entire family looking like fools.

Now you're really out there. Lysa controlled the Eyrie, and wasn't exactly excited that Cat had brought Tyrion there to begin with. She had little or no leverage over the entire situation.

She convinced Robb to place Roose Bolton in a position of authority. She undermined Robb's authority and weakened his strategic position by releasing Jaime. Crossing over to the blatantly evil side, she currently presides as judge, jury and executioner over extremely biased trials.

Yet, she's a good guy because of who her kids are.

I think she's a good guy with poor strategic vision and a serious inability to foresee the consequences of her actions.

I wouldn't hold Undead Cercei's actions against her if she should become so, and it's rather absurd to hold Undead CAt's actions against her when alive. Lady Stoneheart isn't really Catelyn Stark at all.

Apparently you just have a crush on Lena Headey or something, because, no seriously, I think most of what you're saying above to be reaalllly far out there.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

This was forseeably stupid or awful? Really?? It may have been unwise, but at the very least all she did was try to be persuasive. She didn't force Ned into doing anything.



Again, unwise. Not evil. Not badly intentioned. Just a very poor job of foreseeing consequences for her actions. Also possibly based on a lack of understanding of just how much power/influence the Lannisters had at King's Landing, compared to the Hand himself. Also unforeseeable was Ned's resignation as Hand, which rendered him far more vulnerable to attack by Jaime.



Now you're really out there. Lysa controlled the Eyrie, and wasn't exactly excited that Cat had brought Tyrion there to begin with. She had little or no leverage over the entire situation.




I think she's a good guy with poor strategic vision and a serious inability to foresee the consequences of her actions.

I wouldn't hold Undead Cercei's actions against her if she should become so, and it's rather absurd to hold Undead CAt's actions against her when alive. Lady Stoneheart isn't really Catelyn Stark at all.

Apparently you just have a crush on Lena Headey or something, because, no seriously, I think most of what you're saying above to be reaalllly far out there.

Unwise is a great descriptor for Catelyn. Cercei gets blamed for making poor decisions, but everything Catelyn touches literally kills her family.

Stoneheart isn't Catelyn, but just happens to take revenge out on Catelyn's enemies?

I've been sympathetic towards Cercei since before I ever saw the show, so it's not Headey. Honestly, it may be because Robert is by far the character I hate the most. I don't see how Cercei could have turned out any differently, considering Tywin is her father and Robert was her husband.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by raybec 4

I wonder if they'll try to yurn her into something less than a monster. I don't seee them allowing her to burn the Tower, or take the walk if they make her a sympathetic character.

Those are major plot points in the books. Surely they won't whitewash or just not include those major events in the TV series because the actress wants to not play such a cold hard bitch.

In no shape or form did GRR ever write a scene like they showed on TV last night. I was flabbergasted. WTF? Cersi should be tearing into her telling her she's the queen running things until he comes of age, not her.

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Those are major plot points in the books. Surely they won't whitewash or just not include those major events in the TV series because the actress wants to not play such a cold hard bitch.

In no shape or form did GRR ever write a scene like they showed on TV last night. I was flabbergasted. WTF? Cersi should be tearing into her telling her she's the queen running things until he comes of age, not her.

Totally thought the same thing on your last point...

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Hawk

With Tyrion, killing his dad and shae really screws up his psyche and makes him less fun to read about in book 5.

With the way they have treated cersi in the TV series no way they don't also make life a little easier and more sympathetic for Tyrion. He's probably the most popular person on the show.

[KcMizzou]

Lena Heady seems to expect Cersei's "walk" to happen.

In the fifth book, A Dance with Dragons, Cersei's numerous machinations, both political and sexual, finally catch up with her and she is forced to do a Penance Walk, in which her head is shaved and she is stripped naked and forced to walk across King's Landing through jeering crowds. With the show's producers freely reordering events from the books for the series, I asked Headey if she'll take that little stroll this season.

"I think that's going to be next season," she speculated, adding that she is quite aware of what the Penance Walk entails and has spoken about it with showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss.

"We talk about it a lot because I love her...you kind of grab David and Dan and you’re like, 'What are you thinking?' And they love to tease you. They love to wind you up. Sometimes you think, 'oh, they’re being serious,' because it’s terrifying."

As for how she expects the Penance Walk will be handled, Headey said she thinks it will be staged in typically "raw" fashion.

"I think, you know, it's interesting, that part for me. I've been very adamant about keeping her kind of clothed because I think that's part of her power. And she can still be sort of sexual and weird and female, but she doesn't have to be naked. And I think it makes for a more shocking disempowering moment when this happens. So, we'll see. I'm a little scared."

http://www.blastr.com/2014-3-6/exclu...g-cersei-scene

[NewChief]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Those are major plot points in the books. Surely they won't whitewash or just not include those major events in the TV series because the actress wants to not play such a cold hard bitch.

In no shape or form did GRR ever write a scene like they showed on TV last night. I was flabbergasted. WTF? Cersi should be tearing into her telling her she's the queen running things until he comes of age, not her.

They can completely make her take the walk. Hell, it would be more powerful if she's sympathetic. Now it's a heartwrenching moment where you feel sorry for her and sympathy for her instead of a moment of vindication.

[KcMizzou]

Originally Posted by NewChief

They can completely make her take the walk. Hell, it would be more powerful if she's sympathetic. Now it's a heartwrenching moment where you feel sorry for her and sympathy for her instead of a moment of vindication.

Or the viewer is left conflicted (almost always a good thing)

Sure she's been mainly horrible, and probably got herself into this mess... but she's still human.

Very few people if any are 100% good or evil.

[keg in kc]

I don't mind her being humanized but Headey has always played her like she's just a heroic victim of circumstance and a woman to be admired. That's not Cersei. I don't think she ever truly 'got' the character and because of her portrayal neither have any unread viewers. And her tone is more wrong now than it's ever been.

I was surprised when they had Tyrion straight up say to Pod she was plotting against him for the trial and I hope they play that up in the coming weeks. The sympathetic character out of all this has to be the imp. She needs to be vindictive and manipulative and bribing everyone against Tyrion. This should be the point of universal hatred for her.

[KcMizzou]

Pretty good bit about Cesei from Grantland.

“First of His Name” was the best showcase for Cersei — and Lena Headey, the brilliant actress who plays the character the way a lightning bolt plays a tree — in some time. Though her actions were, as ever, limited to the Red Keep, Cersei’s wine-stained fingerprints were present in nearly every scene. This was an episode that dealt explicitly with one of the series’ central conceits: that the stories we tell children offer no preparation for the unscripted harshness of life. As the narrative winged, like a three-eyed raven, from point to point on the map, we saw again and again how the aspirations of the youngest characters — which is to say the most hopeful; which is also to say the most naive — are continually tested by the unexpected depths of the world they’ve been born into. Arya with her dance routines, Sansa with her pastries, Jon with his honor, Daenerys with her noble obstinance: All were smacked in the face last night by something heavier than the back of the Hound’s hand: reality.

Cersei, by contrast, has no illusions left to lose. Moments after watching her second son take the Iron Throne, she made it clear that she knew all too well just who and what her firstborn was. It was an amazing scene, there in the Sept: Margaery making kitten eyes at the cat-fancying Tommen, then holding her ground like a mean girl as her once and future mother-in-law brushed up beside her. But for once, Cersei came in peace. The cynical part of me — a.k.a. the part that would survive five minutes longer in Westeros than the rest of me (thus bringing my total survival time to five minutes) — knew that this was just Phase 1 in Cersei’s three-point plan to butter up Tyrion’s judges like a pie dish. But I was also transfixed at the way Cersei seemed to be undertaking such a cynical task without the slightest trace of cynicism: She really does want Tommen to succeed; she truly believes that he will need help from someone other than herself. Margaery misread the overture as kindness — “sister” is not necessarily a cool thing to call Cersei; just ask the guy rotting in the dungeon — but that’s to be expected: She’s basically a child herself. Though she has buried two husbands before sleeping with either of them, Margaery still seems to possess a youthful confidence that things will eventually work out. Did you notice the way she subtly backed away from Cersei as they spoke? It didn’t seem like fear. Rather, her clenched body language reminded me of a healthy person during hospital visiting hours. It was as if Margaery feared that Cersei’s poisonous nature was contagious. Little did she know that venom is the only thing keeping Cersei alive.

In the end, the Queen Regent played all the judges expertly, like a wedding band strumming “The Rains of Castamere.” Sympathy from the Tyrells was easy enough; all it cost her was a child she’d already lost. And she had nothing to fear from Oberyn, a sun-stroked warrior-poet who gets to keep all of his children, **** anyone in sight, and never change out of his pajamas. More impressive was Cersei’s approach to her father. Up until now, the biggest saps on Game of Thrones weren’t the Starks, they were anyone foolish enough to cross Tywin Lannister from across the Iron Desk. But Cersei drew blood by reminding her father of her own. With Tyrion in chains and Jaime in self-imposed exile, the circumstance was right for Cersei to play the loyal daughter. And so without even finishing her wine, she parroted her father’s bromides about family (“The Lannister legacy is the only thing that matters”) and even feigned interest in his hobbies. I found Tywin’s explanation of the Iron Bank of Braavos fascinating. Cersei had the look of someone at a cocktail party having model trains explained to them. (Sidebar: Do you think Tywin is going to regret his family’s cool motto? “The Lannisters are rarely late with their quarterly interest payments” doesn’t inspire much fear, but nor does it make irony-appreciating bill collectors salivate.) Either way, Tywin seemed charmed. Like Cersei, he wants to believe the best about his children, even when all evidence points to the contrary.

Two weeks later, Jaime’s raping of his twin sister continues to fuel articles and argument. But I think it’s best to consider it as only the latest horrific act of violence to be visited on a woman who has been violated, in one way or another, her entire life. Dooming Tyrion isn’t about the truth. It’s about asserting control. While Margaery schemes and Tywin smirks and Prince Oberyn dips his quill at his leisure, Cersei sacrifices her pride and quite possibly more for a purely selfish desire. The justice she craves isn’t for Joffrey; it’s for herself. I’m haunted by the words she said by the harbor, staring out at the fairy-tale boat built for the daughter she was forced to give up: “Everywhere in the world they hurt little girls.”

http://grantland.com/hollywood-prosp...i-season-four/

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

Unwise is a great descriptor for Catelyn. Cercei gets blamed for making poor decisions, but everything Catelyn touches literally kills her family.

Well, no, that's an exaggeration really. Ned didn't die because Cat took Tyrion captive. Rob and Cat didn't die because of anything Cat did. In fact, she advised Rob to go the other way, right?

And no other member of the family is dead...yet.

Stoneheart isn't Catelyn, but just happens to take revenge out on Catelyn's enemies?

So you think Undead Cat is the same as Living Cat? You think her actions would be the same even if she hadn't died? Yeah, I don't. Stoneheart is just that -- basically a revenant whose sole purpose is to revenge the wrongs done to her and her family when alive. She's no longer human, and her thought processes aren't either.

I've been sympathetic towards Cercei since before I ever saw the show, so it's not Headey. Honestly, it may be because Robert is by far the character I hate the most. I don't see how Cercei could have turned out any differently, considering Tywin is her father and Robert was her husband.

Of all the characters on this show, you hate Robert the most? All he is was is a drinking, whoring, fighter who sort of tripped into getting the crown. He also never recovered from having his betrothed stolen from him. I agree he's not all that sympathetic, but "hate the most"? Compared to Joffrey?!? Gregor Clegane and his boys? Weird.

[Swanman]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Well, no, that's an exaggeration really. Ned didn't die because Cat took Tyrion captive. Rob and Cat didn't die because of anything Cat did. In fact, she advised Rob to go the other way, right?

So you think Undead Cat is the same as Living Cat? You think her actions would be the same even if she hadn't died? Yeah, I don't. Stoneheart is just that -- basically a revenant whose sole purpose is to revenge the wrongs done to her and her family when alive. She's no longer human, and her thought processes aren't either.

Cat gave Robb a great gameplan by creating an allegiance with the Freys and was horrified when he screwed that up.

Stoneheart is vengeance incarnate. Also, since she was dead so long, there wasn't much left to revive. Beric made mention (in the show at least) that each time he was resurrected, he was different in some way and he was normally resurrected right after he died. Cat was in the river for a while.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

WeIl, no, that's an exaggeration really. Ned didn't die because Cat took Tyrion captive. Rob and Cat didn't die because of anything Cat did. In fact, she advised Rob to go the other way, right?

And no other member of the family is dead...yet.




So you think Undead Cat is the same as Living Cat? You think her actions would be the same even if she hadn't died? Yeah, I don't. Stoneheart is just that -- basically a revenant whose sole purpose is to revenge the wrongs done to her and her family when alive. She's no longer human, and her thought processes aren't either.




Of all the characters on this show, you hate Robert the most? All he is was is a drinking, whoring, fighter who sort of tripped into getting the crown. He also never recovered from having his betrothed stolen from him. I agree he's not all that sympathetic, but "hate the most"? Compared to Joffrey?!? Gregor Clegane and his boys? Weird.

She and Robb were killed by the exact person she convinced Robb to trust.

Beric came back each time as what, 95% his old self? It seems presumptuous to think that would not hold true with Catelyn. The main difference is her inability to talk, and that is a result of her injury, not of her resurrection.

Yes, I hate Robert the most. Joff, Gregor, Qyburn, etc are certainly bad guys, but Robert was the most powerful man in the world, but only did as he liked, no matter the consequences for his family or those he was over. At least Cersei and Tywin cared for their family, Robert literally only loved himself and could not suffer the slightest inconvenience to benefit anyone else. Yet, he's a good guy.

[MagicHef]

Oh, also- Robert is really the only person in the books who believes Lyanna was stolen from him. Even Ned doesn't hold ill will toward Rhaegar.