Any fishkeepers here? Saltwater or freshwater

[The Bunk]

Originally Posted by The Bunk

I made my frist major mistake in reef tanks a few weeks ago, and became the poster boy for QT tanks. I bought a fish that had ich (unbeknownst to me) and put him directly in my tank. Within two weeks all but two fish in my tank were dead. I'm fighting an uphill battle to save the last two I'm afraid. I won't be buying another fish until I get my QT tank setup.

Quick update on my situation. The garlic treatment I've been using seems to have worked. The goby and the blenny have really made a turn around, and no more signs of the ich anywhere. I only wish I would have gotten it sooner, and possibly saved my other fish.

I didn't reach the point of using the treatment that htismaqe recommended, so I'm keeping it in my back pocket in case of another outbreak.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by The Bunk

Quick update on my situation. The garlic treatment I've been using seems to have worked. The goby and the blenny have really made a turn around, and no more signs of the ich anywhere. I only wish I would have gotten it sooner, and possibly saved my other fish.

I didn't reach the point of using the treatment that htismaqe recommended, so I'm keeping it in my back pocket in case of another outbreak.

That's great!

[Iowanian]

Fish are a bigger pain in the ass than I anticipated.

I've been changing out a couple of gallons a week and vacuuming the bottom. I'm using the conditioning drops before putting in the new water. No fish have died in the making of this video, however 1 snail apparently did.

So...there has been a clear "slime" dispersed in the water that has plugged the intake of the filter twice. WTF is it and how do I kill it?

I'm starting to hate the plecco. He may find himself on a flathead hook in the spring.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Iowanian

Fish are a bigger pain in the ass than I anticipated.

I've been changing out a couple of gallons a week and vacuuming the bottom. I'm using the conditioning drops before putting in the new water. No fish have died in the making of this video, however 1 snail apparently did.

So...there has been a clear "slime" dispersed in the water that has plugged the intake of the filter twice. WTF is it and how do I kill it?

Can you take a pic? Generally a "slime" would be algae, it's most likely not clear if you look at it closely. But it could also be a bacterial bloom or fungus.

Originally Posted by Iowanian

I'm starting to hate the plecco. He may find himself on a flathead hook in the spring.

Yeah, I've never been a fan.

[htismaqe]

FYI on cycling your tank:

DO NOT use AMMO-LOCK or any other "ammonia neutralizer" when cycling your tank. It actually does more harm than good. It binds ammonia in a non-toxic form, so your fish won't die, but the molecule is not digestible by nitrifying bacteria, so they STARVE. Ultimately, your tank will never cycle or you'll have ammonia problems off and on for the life of the tank.

Not only that but the natural processes that occur in a fish tank can lower pH over time and at some point, the acidity will break the bonds and release all of that ammonia into your tank at ONCE - instantaneous fish kill.

One thing I strongly recommend is a reagent-based ammonia test. It can test for both bound and un-bound ammonia. This is important because while only the former can kill your fish, the presence of EITHER suggests your tank is not fully-cycled.

I also strongly recommend using only Seachem Prime as a dechlorinator/ammonia detoxifier. It detoxifies ammonia in a way that won't interrupt the cycling process.

[Predarat]

Maybe the Chiefs will get this fish:

[DJ's left nut]

I've used Ich attack - meh.

For 150 gallons, that !@#$ gets expensive in a hurry. It makes your tank smell like crap and I'm not sure it does anything more than just feeding them does.

An interesting bit of info re: Copper - as bad as that crap is, you'll find trace of it in a lot of 'essential elements' style water additives. It's more common than we think.

Oh, and in a QT, never EVER use prime, stress coat or any of that stuff. Chelated copper can essentially be 'transformed' into a super-toxic form of copper through those de-chorinators and ammonia reducers. You essentially spin offer copper ions and you end up with some nasty stuff.

If you're going to run a QT, you just need to be prepared to do a daily small water change in it to reduce ammonia levels. You can't built up nitrifying bacteria in it because you don't want the media in there for the ich to take refuge in. Some people will keep a sponge in their sump to build up the bacteria, then introduce it to the QT when they put a fish in there, but I think I'd prefer go bare-bottom with it. You also don't want to use prime because of its impact on the copper medications.

QTs are a bit of a pain in the ass.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I've used Ich attack - meh.

Really? I've used it for both Ich and FW Velvet and it works great. Just as good as copper without the side effects.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

For 150 gallons, that !@#$ gets expensive in a hurry.

The same can be said for almost any medication, fertilizer, or tank additive. It can be an expensive hobby, especially for someone who doesn't know any better (I've been through it myself).

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

An interesting bit of info re: Copper - as bad as that crap is, you'll find trace of it in a lot of 'essential elements' style water additives. It's more common than we think.

Even more interesting is that invertebrates like shrimp NEED copper for proper function of the blood and circulatory system. It really isn't different than iron, which is also toxic in high concentrations.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Oh, and in a QT, never EVER use prime, stress coat or any of that stuff. Chelated copper can essentially be 'transformed' into a super-toxic form of copper through those de-chorinators and ammonia reducers. You essentially spin offer copper ions and you end up with some nasty stuff.

That is true. The better solution is just to not use copper.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

If you're going to run a QT, you just need to be prepared to do a daily small water change in it to reduce ammonia levels. You can't built up nitrifying bacteria in it because you don't want the media in there for the ich to take refuge in. Some people will keep a sponge in their sump to build up the bacteria, then introduce it to the QT when they put a fish in there, but I think I'd prefer go bare-bottom with it. You also don't want to use prime because of its impact on the copper medications.

I find that bringing over nitrifying bacteria is often completely wasted effort because the use of quarantine tank is most often necessary when using antibiotics to treat things like Aeromonas or dropsy. Those antibiotics will kill all of your nitrifying bacteria (the reason you need a QT in the first place) so bringing over bio media is a waste of time.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

QTs are a bit of a pain in the ass.

They are.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Really? I've used it for both Ich and FW Velvet and it works great. Just as good as copper without the side effects.

The fact is that it still can't kill ich. Ich Attack can essentially nurse your fish through an infection, but anything that 'kills' ich is going to wipe out a reef.

So all you're doing is taking something like my selcon/garlic soak (plus the elements added by water changes), dilluting it in water, adding some phosphate to it and then dumping it directly into your tank as opposed to having them ingest it.

It just seems like surgery with a shotgun to me.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

The fact is that it still can't kill ich. Ich Attack can essentially nurse your fish through an infection, but anything that 'kills' ich is going to wipe out a reef.

If it doesn't actually kill the ich, why would it remove any trace of an infection 2-3 times faster than raising the temperature (which essentially just speeds up the ich lifecycle)?

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

If it doesn't actually kill the ich, why would it remove any trace of an infection 2-3 times faster than raising the temperature (which essentially just speeds up the ich lifecycle)?

It doesn't, apart from the fact that it makes your fish healthier and their slime coat kicks off the parasites and prevents re-attachment. There may not be 'traces' of the infection, but the ich is still there.

Do an experiment - treat your display tank with ich-attack for the proscribed period. Then go the the LFS and buy a new fish. Put him in quarantine for however long you'd like and treat however you'd like to get him 'clean'.

I can virtually guarantee you that the moment you put him in your display, he'll show ich. The ich in your display tank was never dead; it was simply dormant or otherwise kept under control by the immune system of the fish in the tank.

Anything, absolutely anything, that can truly kill a parasite that amounts to nothing more than a microscopic crustacean, is going to obliterate more than just said parasite.

If there was a truly reef-safe method to kill ich, it wouldn't be a 'recommendation' by anyone; it would be an order. There wouldn't be 'suggested' forms of treatment like QT or hypo-salinity; you'd just use that stuff. It would completely revolutionize the fishkeeping industry.

It simply doesn't exist. There is nothing on the market, and IMO never will be, that can kill ich in a reef tank without annihilating your invertebrate population and destroying your live-rock. There's no way to target-kill ich without also irreparably damaging your biological system, mobile and sessile invertebrates.

[Lumpy]

I'm quite impressed w/ the responses on here! And here I thought I was the only fish nerd.

Silock, any of the cycling methods the others suggested will work. But honestly, no matter what method you choose, seriously consider doing it the humane way w/o the use of fishes... trust me! We thought that our tank was cycled, (false reading from the test strips), and added a few fishes. Next thing we knew they began jumping out of the tank. From that point on, I never put my trust in the test strips and bought the API Freshwater Master Test Kit. It's a lot more work, but is way more accurate.

In regards to a QT... I have a spare 10g that I use and it's fairly easy to set-up. I have a small HOB filter on my 55g that I move to that tank and add my extra heater. Then, when I'm done w/ the treatment, I sanitize all of the equipment thoroughly and toss out the filter media.

The last time I used the 10g, I was treating 2 of my fishes that had Columnaris. I used MaracynII and my bacteria was still intact. I think as long as you use meds that don't alter your cycle, you will be fine. Otherwise, it's a waste to move filter media over if the meds are going to mess w/ your bacteria. I also use Prime when adding new water, (to my main tanks, and my QT).

Rid Ich worked really well when I had my Ich outbreaks, (luckily I've only had 3... thanks to not using a QT when I got new fishes). I think as long as you catch Ich in the early stages, (when the fishes are flashing against objects), it works better. Otherwise, like someone else mentioned, when you notice any visual proof that your fishes have Ich, (white "salty" substance), you're pretty much hosed.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

Silock, any of the cycling methods the others suggested will work. But honestly, no matter what method you choose, seriously consider doing it the humane way w/o the use of fishes... trust me!

It might seem inhumane to have a couple of fish suffer through the cycle but the alternatives are far less humane. Any other type of cycling just isn't "natural" and while the outcome may be okay most of the time, the times that it isn't usually result in tearing the whole thing down, sterilizing, and starting over. Saprolegnia fungus, for example, is nearly impossible to get rid of once it gets established.

Originally Posted by Lumpy

The last time I used the 10g, I was treating 2 of my fishes that had Columnaris. I used MaracynII and my bacteria was still intact. I think as long as you use meds that don't alter your cycle, you will be fine. Otherwise, it's a waste to move filter media over if the meds are going to mess w/ your bacteria. I also use Prime when adding new water, (to my main tanks, and my QT).

Columnaris and some other infections respond to Maracyn, which won't harm your bio filtration. Aeromonas, on the other hand, won't likely respond to Maracyn and drugs like Erythromycin (which should be a last resort) will destroy your biofilter. I'm not a biologist but it has to do with gram-positive vs. gram-negative bacteria.

[Silock]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

It might seem inhumane to have a couple of fish suffer through the cycle but the alternatives are far less humane. Any other type of cycling just isn't "natural" and while the outcome may be okay most of the time, the times that it isn't usually result in tearing the whole thing down, sterilizing, and starting over. Saprolegnia fungus, for example, is nearly impossible to get rid of once it gets established.

Most fishless cycles advocate just using straight up ammonia. What's wrong with that, if the idea is just to grow the beneficial bacteria?

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Silock

Most fishless cycles advocate just using straight up ammonia. What's wrong with that, if the idea is just to grow the beneficial bacteria?

Because there's no bacteria. Without the presence of some biological entity to "infect" the tank, the NH3 just sits there and does nothing. Ultimately, the bacteria has to come from the air, etc.. You have to be really patient with the ammonia method because it takes much longer than most other methods.

The other advantage of using fish is that, as you add them over time, your bacterial bed adjusts the population to support the bio-load of your tank. People that cycle with ammonia (or fish food or shrimp) often find that they have to re-cycle when they add fish because they didn't use enough to get a big enough biofilter to accomodate the number of fish they added.

Now the big advantage of pure ammonia over fish food or shrimp is that there's virtually zero chance of introducing Saprolegnia fungus.