RAINMAN: Death by religion versus atheistic ideology

[BucEyedPea]

I said I'd be back with what you asked on this, remember?
I have the info compiled now.

The Angry Atheist - Is it true? Thread

Then I'll be back later...gotta' go now.

I use Rummel’s study/site on how power kills. He is professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii. He has spent his career assembling data on collective violence and war with a view toward helping their resolution or elimination. I don’t agree fully with his conclusions however.

It’s difficult to see the atheistic versus the religion numbers for a comparison on just those two. So I did my own pages separating out these two. However, I will footnote the site for reference.

Rummel seems to have some changes in his numbers from table to table, as he updates. I was only able find the reason for some in a footnote somehere on a page. He also ranges numbers from hi to low for handling disputes on numbers. Still, it's a great site and is where I orginally got the idea for what I said in that thread the other day: which was that more people have died at the hands of atheistic communism, than from any religion. This is my back up for that statement which you took a bet with me on. K?





(1) Pre 20th Century Democide
(2) Religion Facts:Basis of Roman Persecutions

(3) 20th Century Mortatocracies
(4) 20th Century Democides

(5) Democide
For those who prefer Wikipedia

[Rain Man]

I think we should start adding in a few more religious ones. Let's start with a couple of obscure ones:

1. Hitler killing 6,000,000 Jews.
2. The partition of India in 1947.
3. Everything that has happened in the Middle East for the past thousand years.
4. The occupation of Tibet

Also, I question the inclusion of some of the "athiestic" deaths in this guy's lists. A lot of the people killed in Cambodia, China, and Russia were killed in part because of their religious beliefs. I would include parts of these under the "religious" deaths category.

Maybe we should get a third party to referee this grand debate.

[stumppy]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

Maybe we should get a third party to referee this grand debate.

Good luck with that invitation to snoozville.

[RedDread]

Perhaps those deaths should also be compared to the world population at the time



GO CRUSADES

[BucEyedPea]

I knew beforehand what was going to be challenged.

Originally Posted by Rain Man

I think we should start adding in a few more religious ones. Let's start with a couple of obscure ones:
1. Hitler killing 6,000,000 Jews.

Hitler is in there on the site as a killer but I decided he does fit this category.
That was RACIALLY motivated democide, not religious.

Jews are both an ethnic group and religion...but were killed due to their race. However 80% of them claim to be atheists. Hitler killed about 21,000,000 people overall if you read the site and 3 million were Catholics. He also killed the feeble minded etc.

There is also a question as to whether he was really a Christian or not too.

2. The partition of India in 1947.

Good point. Was that due to religion?
My understanding was that it was more than that or it'd be on the site.
My understanding is that Great Britain agitated the two groups to convince them that they needed to stay to administer the area.
Give me the numbers and add it in.

Rummel does include Pakistan. I could add it.
The site did not include Roman persecutions for some reason.

3. Everything that has happened in the Middle East for the past thousand years.

That's in there. Crusades cover most of that.
Current ME conflict did not start over religion it started over land and broken promises by the British.Let's face it this is the crux of that matter over there. Further 80% of Jewish today don't even claim to be religious. They are also an ethnic group...in fact they are also semites just like the Arabs.

4. The occupation of Tibet
A lot of the people killed in Cambodia, China, and Russia were killed in part because of their religious beliefs. I would include parts of these under the "religious" deaths category.

They are in there. Did you read it?

Also, I question the inclusion of some of the "athiestic" deaths in this guy's lists.

Specifically?
You’d have to give me all your numbers to really see, no?

I highly doubt anyone could ever match the atheistic communists alone as a group. Their numbers ARE UNMATCHED in history especially for such a short period of time. But give me the numbers to see.

[BIG_DADDY]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

I think we should start adding in a few more religious ones. Let's start with a couple of obscure ones:

1. Hitler killing 6,000,000 Jews.
2. The partition of India in 1947.
3. Everything that has happened in the Middle East for the past thousand years.
4. The occupation of Tibet

Also, I question the inclusion of some of the "athiestic" deaths in this guy's lists. A lot of the people killed in Cambodia, China, and Russia were killed in part because of their religious beliefs. I would include parts of these under the "religious" deaths category.

Maybe we should get a third party to referee this grand debate.

Um, you better come up with considerably higher numbers before that will be necessary.

[Rain Man]

And how does he include Tito's Yugoslavia, and then forget the whole Bosnian/Serb thing?

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

And how does he include Tito's Yugoslavia, and then forget the whole Bosnian/Serb thing?

That was promoted as ethnic cleansing.
I did think of it but decided it was ethnic.
Also if you read his site, he is not separating out by religion but by lack of freedom and democracy. That's one of his conclusions I don't agree with.
Democracy does not equal freedom nor does it guarantee less violence. I used to think that but I've changed my mind.

[Rain Man]

I nominate stumppy to be our referee.

[Eleazar]

How do you figure that Hitler should go in the religious side?

I mean, those people were killed because of their ethnicity, perhaps their religion by extension, but it's not like the other side's religion was compelling them to commit the act. It was the Nietzschean philosophies of their ruling class.

At any rate, the two societies that worked to become the most devoid of religion of all are the biggest offendors, and make Hitler look like a rank amateur anyways.

[Brock]

Uh....Ottoman Empire?

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Brock

Uh....Ottoman Empire?

That is on the site.
But my comparison is being killed by religion versus atheistic communism.

Ottomans had dhimmi discrimination towards Jews and Christians
but they allowed religious practice.

[Brock]

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

That is on the site.
But my comparison is being killed by religion versus atheistic communism.

Ottomans had dhimmi discrimination towards Jews and Christians
but they allowed religious practice.

Yeah, if you consider mass beheadings to be "discrimination".

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Brock

Yeah, if you consider mass beheadings to be "discrimination".

Then give me the numbers....not generalities.
They are on his site. And only include the ones killed due to their faith.
Ottoman persecution of Jews is NOTHING compared to Christian Europe. IN fact many Jews attained great wealth under the Ottomans.

Generally, I take the Ottoman conquest to be more a quest for overall empire, no different than others in the ME: Egyptians,Greek, Persians, Romans, Mongols, Huns etc.