Cardinals ***OFFICIAL*** 2013 STL Cardinals Thread - Page 63

**BigRedChief** · 08:16 PM

From Bernie's column:

People have asked me why we’re not more emotional,” Matheny said in his office after Sunday’s game. “They say that we look subdued, always intense. That our actions are methodical, robotic at times. That’s what got us here. This isn’t the time to change it.”

It’s hard to argue with the manager’s assessment. The Cardinals finished with 97 victories, most by a Cards team since 2005, and tied with Boston for No. 1 in the majors this year.

Their 54-27 showing at Busch Stadium matches the 1985 team for the best single-season home winning percentage (.667) by the Cardinals since 1944.

A postseason theme has emerged, and it echoes the mantra that surfaced before the start of 2013: remember the fall of 2012. Remember falling to San Francisco in the NLCS.

The Cardinals’ veterans still haven’t forgotten. They still aren’t over it. It’s why Matheny resists GM John Mozeliak’s urgings to smile and put on a happier face.

Here's the most impressive aspect of the Cardinals' division championship: they prevailed over two other outstanding teams, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati.

The 97-win Cardinals were better this year (regular season) than they were in 2011, when they won 90 games, and 2012, when they won 88.
Here are a few numbers that help put the Cardinals' Central title and No. 1 NL seed in perspective:

* Since MLB switched to a three-division format in each league in 1994, this was only the sixth time that a division had three 90-plus win teams. St. Louis won 97, Pittsburgh 94, and Cincinnati 90.
* Since the format change, this was only the second time that an NL division had three 90-win teams. In 2002 the NL West had Arizona (98 wins), San Francisco (95) and Los Angeles (92).
* The 2013 Cardinals faced more esteemed and difficult competition at the top of the division than any of the division-winning teams managed by Tony La Russa.

The Pirates were hardly pushovers; the Cardinals had to work like mad and kick in with a strong finish to put the division away, and didn't clinch until Game No. 160.

The Cardinals went 9-10 against Pittsburgh this season and were 11-8 vs. Cincinnati.

The Cardinals won only three of 10 games at PNC Park in Pittsburgh and split the 10 games at Cincinnati. The Cardinals were 6-3 against both teams at Busch Stadium.

The Cardinals (1st), Pirates (3rd) and Reds (5th) ranked among the top five in wins in the NL. The three teams were among the top 11 in wins in MLB. All three teams finished in the top five in the majors for best overall ERA, and each were in the top five MLB for best starting-pitching ERA.

The original purpose to this piece was to point out that the Cardinals managed to finish with the league's best record while competing in a division that had three 90-win teams for only the second time in the last 19 years of National League baseball.

The Cardinals really earned this.
Thanks for reading ...
— Bernie

Jewish Rabbi · 05-24-2013, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

So you still think I'm overrating Rosenthal? Since about this time you posted this lecture for me on Rosenthal, that he shouldn't be in the majors and developing in the minors...........

In his last 16 appearances Cardinals’ eighth-inning reliever Trevor Rosenthal has allowed one run in 14.1 innings, with 24 strikeouts. That’s an 0.63 ERA. And has walked only two of the last 39 batters he’s faced.

Rosenthal’s strikeout rate of 13.5 per nine innings is fifth-highest among qualifying NL relievers. According to STATS LLC, Rosenthal has the fourth-best swing-miss rate (34.2 percent) among qualified NL relievers.

I guess I'm confused. You want Rosenthal to be a starter next year, but are happy that he won't have anywhere near the innings this year to accomplish that feat?

**BigRedChief** · 05-24-2013, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi

I guess I'm confused. You want Rosenthal to be a starter next year, but are happy that he won't have anywhere near the innings this year to accomplish that feat?

I'm evolving.We don't have a closer that we can count on for 2 years. It takes 2 years for Tommy John pitchers to return to 100% of their previous success. Waino is just the latest example.

Mott will not be ready next year. If he is, great.Does anyone think he is going to come out of spring training firing 98 mph fastballs all season without any issues?

Mujica works out, great. Can we really count on him continuing his current success for 2 years? Rosenthal is the only option that I can see that could have success for the next 2 years. Our future starting rotations can be great without Rosenthal.

We will trade some of our pitching. I disagree with that option but its reality. Young stud cost controlled pitching is how we can compete with $2 BILLION TV contracts. But, again realistically it will happen.

I count 12 possible starters in the pitching pipeline, not counting future draft picks.

Waino
Miller
Wacha
Martinez
Lynn
Garcia
Jenkins
Maness
Lyons
Gast
Swaggerty
Westbrook (too many young arms. Mo may tolerate 3 youngsters but not 4 in a 5 man rotation next season.)

VAChief · 05-24-2013, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

I'm evolving.We don't have a closer that we can count on for 2 years. It takes 2 years for Tommy John pitchers to return to 100% of their previous success. Waino is just the latest example.

Mott will not be ready next year. If he is, great.Does anyone think he is going to come out of spring training firing 98 mph fastballs all season without any issues?

Mujica works out, great. Can we really count on him continuing his current success for 2 years? Rosenthal is the only option that I can see that could have success for the next 2 years. Our future starting rotations can be great without Rosenthal.

We will trade some of our pitching. I disagree with that option but its reality. Young stud cost controlled pitching is how we can compete with $2 BILLION TV contracts. But, again realistically it will happen.

I count 12 Possible Starters, not counting future draft picks.

Waino
Miller
Wachau
Martinez
Lynn
Garcia
Jenkins
Maness
Lyons
Gast
Swaggerty
Westbrook (too many young arms. Mo may tolerate 3 youngsters but not 4 in a 5 man rotation next season.)

Garcia is toast. Swaggerty projects more as middle to set up reliever, but the rest are viable options at this time.

**BigRedChief** · 05-24-2013, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VAChief

Garcia is toast. Swaggerty projects more as middle to set up reliever, but the rest are viable options at this time.

Thats still 10 for 5 spots. Waino, Miller and Wacha have 3 of those 5 locked up. And where is Martinez? Thats really 6 for 1 spot. Would you still use Rosenthal as a starter?

'Hamas' Jenkins · 05-24-2013, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

So you still think I'm overrating Rosenthal? Since about this time you posted this lecture for me on Rosenthal, that he shouldn't be in the majors and developing in the minors...........

In his last 16 appearances Cardinals’ eighth-inning reliever Trevor Rosenthal has allowed one run in 14.1 innings, with 24 strikeouts. That’s an 0.63 ERA. And has walked only two of the last 39 batters he’s faced.

Rosenthal’s strikeout rate of 13.5 per nine innings is fifth-highest among qualifying NL relievers. According to STATS LLC, Rosenthal has the fourth-best swing-miss rate (34.2 percent) among qualified NL relievers.

While he's obviously turned into a good reliever, his success as a reliever does not necessarily excuse not stretching him out as a starter.

You could make a fair case that the team would have been better off had they stretched him out and given him a starter's setup at the beginning of the season, calling him up when Gast got the call.

I think we'd all also feel more comfortable about our rotation going forward, although the bullpen would be a ****ing disaster.

With that said, I think that having him pitch a year in the pen isn't necessarily a bad thing for his development. It worked perfectly well for Wainwright in 2006, and although he isn't getting stretched out, he is getting used to major league hitting, and he's slowly learning how to pitch rather than throw.

tl;dr: both viewpoints have merit.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 05-24-2013, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

I'm evolving.We don't have a closer that we can count on for 2 years. It takes 2 years for Tommy John pitchers to return to 100% of their previous success. Waino is just the latest example.

Mott will not be ready next year. If he is, great.Does anyone think he is going to come out of spring training firing 98 mph fastballs all season without any issues?

Mujica works out, great. Can we really count on him continuing his current success for 2 years? Rosenthal is the only option that I can see that could have success for the next 2 years. Our future starting rotations can be great without Rosenthal.

We will trade some of our pitching. I disagree with that option but its reality. Young stud cost controlled pitching is how we can compete with $2 BILLION TV contracts. But, again realistically it will happen.

I count 12 possible starters in the pitching pipeline, not counting future draft picks.

Waino
Miller
Wacha
Martinez
Lynn
Garcia
Jenkins
Maness
Lyons
Gast
Swaggerty
Westbrook (too many young arms. Mo may tolerate 3 youngsters but not 4 in a 5 man rotation next season.)

Lyons and Maness are not major league starters. The organization will even tell you that. They really like Lyons in the role Rzep was supposed to fill: lefty with breaking pitches that are hell on LHB, but who can go multiple innings/batters.

Gast is just a touch over replacement level as a starter, IMO, but he'll never be a great LHR because he doesn't have an effective breaking ball.

**** Garcia in his labia meat shoulder.

Wainwright
Lynn
Miller
Wacha

That leaves a fifth spot for Martinez, Rosenthal, Jenkins, or Swagerty.

Swagerty is coming off of TJ surgery (still hasn't appeared in a game since '11) and is a 24 year old in ****ing A ball. Stop it.

Jenkins is getting his ****ing teeth kicked in at A ball.

Realistically, you have six legitimate guys for five spots, and that assumes that Martinez can continue to develop as a starter (and can handle the workload), and that Rosenthal can develop as a starter.

**BigRedChief** · 05-24-2013, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Lyons and Maness are not major league starters. The organization will even tell you that. They really like Lyons in the role Rzep was supposed to fill: lefty with breaking pitches that are hell on LHB, but who can go multiple innings/batters.

Gast is just a touch over replacement level as a starter, IMO, but he'll never be a great LHR because he doesn't have an effective breaking ball.

**** Garcia in his labia meat shoulder.

Wainwright
Lynn
Miller
Wacha

That leaves a fifth spot for Martinez, Rosenthal, Jenkins, or Swagerty.

Swagerty is coming off of TJ surgery (still hasn't appeared in a game since '11) and is a 24 year old in ****ing A ball. Stop it.

Jenkins is getting his ****ing teeth kicked in at A ball.

Realistically, you have six legitimate guys for five spots, and that assumes that Martinez can continue to develop as a starter (and can handle the workload), and that Rosenthal can develop as a starter.

I would mostly agree with your evaluations. But, you are making my point also.

We have realistic options. We can use Rosenthal as a closer.
We have no business trading our young pitchers. You can never have enough pitching.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 05-24-2013, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

I would mostly agree with your evaluations. But, you are making my point also.

We have realistic options. We can use Rosenthal as a closer.
We have no business trading our young pitchers. You can never have enough pitching.

1. Having only six legitimate options for five spots at SP should not point to you using the sixth guy as a permanent reliever. Look at the attrition rates in modern pitching staffs. You're effectively moving your entire army to the front line. If the enemy penetrates it at all, you're risking an encirclement.

2. Who argued differently?

**BigRedChief** · 05-24-2013, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

2. Who argued differently?

wasnt saying someone was thinking different. Just that its an obvious conclusion. But, watch, we will trade one of our studs at the trade deadline.

Jewish Rabbi · 05-24-2013, 08:52 PM

Unless Westbrook just doesn't recover from injury, I would be surprised if we didn't pick up his option next year. Too many rookies/unknowns in the rotation going forward.

Jewish Rabbi · 05-24-2013, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

wasnt saying someone was thinking different. Just that its an obvious conclusion. But, watch, we will trade one of our studs at the trade deadline.

For what? This team is fairly stacked with position players. We're also going to add Carp and Wacha to the pitching staff (bullpen?) by the end of the year.

**BigRedChief** · 05-24-2013, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jewish Rabbi

For what? This team is fairly stacked with position players. We're also going to add Carp and Wacha to the pitching staff (bullpen?) by the end of the year.

Bullpen or maybe a top of the line SS?

I'd bet real money by the trading deadline next year that one of our young stud pitchers is traded.

JFC. I'm strongly against trading any pitchers.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 05-24-2013, 09:09 PM

I'd be perfectly content with them moving Jenkins. I just don't see that kid ever developing, and I don't see them getting much of anything for him. I have no idea how he made the top 100 list this year.

**BigRedChief** · 05-24-2013, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

I'd be perfectly content with them moving Jenkins. I just don't see that kid ever developing, and I don't see them getting much of anything for him. I have no idea how he made the top 100 list this year.

Sounds like a loser trade for us.

We don't get shit in the trade and we give up on a pitcher that one day could possibly be a #3-#5 MLB pitcher. Why not just hang on to him and see if it ever clicks?

**BigRedChief** · 05-24-2013, 09:21 PM

You guys watching the game. Here's a stat I heard scully say...........

When Lynn pitches and the Cardinals score 3 or more runs, he is 22-4 for his career.

Seems massively good to me. Hamas, is that a high winning % for a #3 pitcher with 3 runs of support?

01-25-2013, 05:27 PM
BigRedChief Has a particular set of skills Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: On the water Casino cash: $3159627 VARSITY	*OFFICIAL* 2013 STL Cardinals Thread From Bernie's column: People have asked me why we’re not more emotional,” Matheny said in his office after Sunday’s game. “They say that we look subdued, always intense. That our actions are methodical, robotic at times. That’s what got us here. This isn’t the time to change it.” It’s hard to argue with the manager’s assessment. The Cardinals finished with 97 victories, most by a Cards team since 2005, and tied with Boston for No. 1 in the majors this year. Their 54-27 showing at Busch Stadium matches the 1985 team for the best single-season home winning percentage (.667) by the Cardinals since 1944. A postseason theme has emerged, and it echoes the mantra that surfaced before the start of 2013: remember the fall of 2012. Remember falling to San Francisco in the NLCS. The Cardinals’ veterans still haven’t forgotten. They still aren’t over it. It’s why Matheny resists GM John Mozeliak’s urgings to smile and put on a happier face. Here's the most impressive aspect of the Cardinals' division championship: they prevailed over two other outstanding teams, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati. The 97-win Cardinals were better this year (regular season) than they were in 2011, when they won 90 games, and 2012, when they won 88. Here are a few numbers that help put the Cardinals' Central title and No. 1 NL seed in perspective: * Since MLB switched to a three-division format in each league in 1994, this was only the sixth time that a division had three 90-plus win teams. St. Louis won 97, Pittsburgh 94, and Cincinnati 90. * Since the format change, this was only the second time that an NL division had three 90-win teams. In 2002 the NL West had Arizona (98 wins), San Francisco (95) and Los Angeles (92). * The 2013 Cardinals faced more esteemed and difficult competition at the top of the division than any of the division-winning teams managed by Tony La Russa. The Pirates were hardly pushovers; the Cardinals had to work like mad and kick in with a strong finish to put the division away, and didn't clinch until Game No. 160. The Cardinals went 9-10 against Pittsburgh this season and were 11-8 vs. Cincinnati. The Cardinals won only three of 10 games at PNC Park in Pittsburgh and split the 10 games at Cincinnati. The Cardinals were 6-3 against both teams at Busch Stadium. The Cardinals (1st), Pirates (3rd) and Reds (5th) ranked among the top five in wins in the NL. The three teams were among the top 11 in wins in MLB. All three teams finished in the top five in the majors for best overall ERA, and each were in the top five MLB for best starting-pitching ERA. The original purpose to this piece was to point out that the Cardinals managed to finish with the league's best record while competing in a division that had three 90-win teams for only the second time in the last 19 years of National League baseball. The Cardinals really earned this. Thanks for reading ... — Bernie Last edited by BigRedChief; 10-02-2013 at 08:16 PM..
Posts: 79,001

05-24-2013, 08:52 PM	#940
Jewish Rabbi What's up braj? Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Placencia, Belize Casino cash: $2138320	Unless Westbrook just doesn't recover from injury, I would be surprised if we didn't pick up his option next year. Too many rookies/unknowns in the rotation going forward.
Posts: 15,553

05-24-2013, 09:09 PM	#943
'Hamas' Jenkins Now you've pissed me off! Join Date: Jan 2006 Casino cash: $8009572	I'd be perfectly content with them moving Jenkins. I just don't see that kid ever developing, and I don't see them getting much of anything for him. I have no idea how he made the top 100 list this year. __________________ "When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty – to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.”--Abraham Lincoln
Posts: 74,825

05-24-2013, 09:21 PM	#945
BigRedChief Has a particular set of skills Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: On the water Casino cash: $3159627 VARSITY	You guys watching the game. Here's a stat I heard scully say........... When Lynn pitches and the Cardinals score 3 or more runs, he is 22-4 for his career. Seems massively good to me. Hamas, is that a high winning % for a #3 pitcher with 3 runs of support? __________________ Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. -YODA
Posts: 79,001