I think I understand the new defense.

[Chris Meck]

Ok.
So, I've been confused like everyone else, but I think I now understand what we're going to be doing defensively and how the personnel will fit.

In what our version of the 3-4 will be:

the left outside linebacker will line up on the outside shoulder of the tackle to head up on the TE . This is more like a classic LDE in terms of responsibilities. Outside containment/pass rush type stuff. This is where Hali fits as an OLB. Basically pretty much the same as his role in the 4-3. He can play a little lighter if he likes, as he won't be singled up on the Tackle pretty much ever because:

the LDE will line up on the outside shoulder of the RG (B gap). His job is to shoot that gap between the guard and tackle, attacking the line of scrimmage, disrupting the blocking scheme. This is where you'd use Glenn Dorsey. The role is very similar to what a penetrating DT in a 4-3 scheme would be doing. This is what Haley said they'd do with Dorsey in the PC yesterday. Magee is probably a rotational player at both DE spots. So no more 'Dorsey is a bad fit at NT' talk. That's not the plan, because:

Ron Edwards and Tank Tyler are your NT. However, they're not going to be traditional NT's in the Ted Washington mold. They too will have one gap responsibility, usually shading to the strong side on the center's outside shoulder, (A gap) but not always. They don't need to be 350 pound space eaters, as they're not playing two gap. Personally, I think Tyler is the most promising guy at this spot physically.

Your RILB would be the player that is basically lined up on the center/LG gap (albeit a few yards off the ball) in what would be nearly identical to a classic MLB role (this is what Zach Thomas meant about playing MLB).

Your LILB (Derrick Johnson's spot) is your 'flow to the ball' playmaker. He's covered by the LOLB outside and the LDE right in front of him. On a running play up the gut, for example, the center would take on ONE of the ILB's, but not likely get both, so this guy will probably rack up a ton of tackles.

Your RDE (Jackson) will be on the LG's outside shoulder, with one gap responsibility there. If the guard can't handle him alone, they're in real trouble, because outside the tackle is the ROLB (or rush-backer). Outside containment responsibilities, yes-and rush the passer. This is what Vrabel fits in. he's only a year removed from double digit sacks, and that's because he was injured. He needs only to require the Tackle's full attention to be successful, because that means the LDE has got a single man to beat. The whole point of a 6-5 295 monster DE with long arms is that you HAVE to double him. So choose your poison.

Safeties will play a more prominent role in run support than they did in cover 2 (at least our version, in which they were basically non-existant) and corners will probably play some man. I'm not worried about our secondary, actually, I feel pretty good about it and not too much is different for them.

I think I'm pretty accurate about the responsibilities and the personnel I named is based on the interviews with Pioli and/or Haley.

Did I get it right?

[Chris Meck]

I'm bumping this back to the front page as there are new posts about NT's, and why we didn't draft one, etc. and I think there was some pretty good info passed around here. Not by me neccessarily, but in general.

as you were.

[booger]

Scheme flexibility

Do the Cardinals run a 3-4 or 4-3 defense? The answer is, well, yes

By Eric Edholm
Jan. 30, 2009


TAMPA, Fla. — Cardinals LB coach Bill Davis leaned back in his seat, exhaled and tried to remember a conversation he had five years and two jobs ago.

“I have been so many places, you tend to forget what you did when and when things happened,” Davis said. “It all blends together.”

Indeed. In 17 NFL seasons, Davis has worked for eight clubs and has run or been a part of just about every kind of defensive scheme there is. He has been around long enough to have seen the 3-4 defense go out of style and subsequently come back as, what Steelers offensive coordinator Bruce Arians calls it, “the vogue defense right now,” including his own team’s superior unit.


But do the Cardinals run a 3-4 also? The answer might surprise you.
“Everybody puts us in that 3-4 category, but what we are is an ‘under’ front, a 4-3 ‘under’ defense,” Davis explains. “The ‘under’ is almost a 3-4. As 3-4 [defenses] go, it’s not really what we do here.”

An “under” defense slants toward the tight end. Likewise, an “over” front shifts away from the tight end. As he explains the workings of the Cardinals’ defense, Davis starts talking, then does as any good coach or teacher would: He grabs a pen and paper. “Well, here, let me show you what I mean …”

Pretty soon, he’s scratching out the defensive scheme on paper, the same one the Cardinals will use to try to stop the Steelers on Sunday. He also, for comparison, sketches out the traditional 3-4 defense and the 4-3 “even” front, both of which he has taught and coached in the NFL.

“When you’re talking about the 3-4 team, you have the three D-linemen,” Davis said. “Then you have [two] outside ’backers; then [the inside linebackers] bubble on the guards.”

Bubbling, in defensive terms, is to line up across from an uncovered offensive lineman. In a 3-4, it’s the two offensive guards that most often don’t have a defensive lineman in front of them. The two defensive ends are lined up in five-techniques, or on the outside shoulder of the offensive tackles. The nose tackle is head up across from the center.

Said Davis: “These guys [defensive linemen] are supposed to two-gap, and these outside [linebackers] are interchangeable rush-or-pass guys. And that’s the dynamic of the 3-4.”

But in the 4-3 “under” front, like the Cardinals use as their base defense, which looks similar to the 3-4 to the naked eye, the biggest difference is in the outside linebackers. The strong-side linebacker is still outside the tight end. But the other outside guy — the Cardinals call this player their “Predator” — is almost always rushing the passer, although the Cards will occasionally drop him into coverage to mix things up. Other differences: The nose tackle shades to the A-gap (in between the center and guard) on the tight end side, and the end on that side moves between the tackle and tight end.

Davis explained that the 3-4 defense creates the most confusion for the offense in terms of which outside linebacker is doing what, and the standard 4-3 offers the least unpredictability. The Cardinals’ 4-3 “under” scheme is somewhere in between the two in terms of causing the offense to guess who is rushing and who is dropping.

The only player in the 4-3 “under” who is left uncovered is the “Mike,” or middle linebacker. In the Cardinals’ scheme, that’s usually Gerald Hayes. “That’s my thumper, more of a thick guy,” Davis said, circling the capital M on his piece of paper. “In the ‘over’ front, when I was in Atlanta [2001 to 2003], we put Keith Brooking — we were actually playing an even scheme, too – but we stacked Keith right behind the three [technique] and he got to run and make plays and use his athleticism, and he made his first Pro Bowl playing behind the three.”

But in this scheme Hayes, listed at 249 pounds (“or a little less than that,” he admits with a wink and a smile), is the only uncovered linebacker. That means he often will be taking on 300-pound guards head on. On Sunday, it could be Steelers ORG Darnell Stapleton and his 305 pounds that will meet Hayes more than once. “You don’t think about it,” Hayes says, “you just do it. You can’t worry about taking those guys on. It comes with the territory.”

Antonio Smith and Darnell Dockett are the ends in this system, backed up by rookies Kenny Iwabema and Calais Campbell. Bryan Robinson and Gabe Watson are the nose tackles. Chike Okeafor is the primary strong-side linebacker, now that Clark Haggans is out with an injury.

Karlos Dansby is the weak-side linebacker. The way the defense is set up, he has a nice protective shield to keep potential blockers at bay. “What we’ve done with Karlos is put him behind a three-technique, so basically — we call these anchor points — he’s got a wall in front of him,” Davis said. “So he can run and use his athleticism. The center can’t get him because the nose is on him. The guard can’t get him because the end is on him. And the tackle can’t get him because the predator is on him. So this is your athlete that can run, go cover ground and make plays.”

The “Predator” position is manned by Bertrand Berry and Travis LaBoy, assuming LaBoy is healthy enough to play Sunday. Both guys really are defensive ends by trade, but Davis considers them his guys.

“At the end of the day, I have these guys [the “Predators”] in my meeting room, so that puts us closer to this scheme [the 4-3 under],” he said. “And I put them in a two-point stance. This is the key right here: This guy right here [the three-technique weakside end] almost makes us have to rush the passer. As soon as you move him inside [from a five-technique], his responsibility in this is to play this very same gap.”

Davis has coached this scheme with the Giants and 49ers, but this is the first time in a while one of his defenses has used it as their base grouping. He has picked up pieces of different schemes from a bunch of different schools around the league and likes the flexibility of what he and other defenses have discovered in the 4-3 “under” formation.

“The [Bill] Belichicks, [Dom] Capers, the [Bill] Parcells, that whole group … they play the ‘under’ front most of the time, but they move to it,” Davis said. “So are we a 3-4? Almost.”

It just depends on how you look at it. Or under it.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW...wwhi013009.htm

I keep refering back at this article and think it comes in handy.

BTW, Good post/thread Chris.

[Ralphy Boy]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

the left outside linebacker will line up on the outside shoulder of the tackle to head up on the TE . This is more like a classic LDE in terms of responsibilities. Outside containment/pass rush type stuff. This is where Hali fits as an OLB. Basically pretty much the same as his role in the 4-3. He can play a little lighter if he likes, as he won't be singled up on the Tackle pretty much ever because:

I thought this part was interesting, so I went back and found Hali's draft info from 2006 and saw this quote from
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo...yers/4660.html

Offers possibilities as a pass-rushing end in a conventional defense or could stand up over tackle in a 34.

Much like Merriman in terms of position and size only. Merriman was quite a bit quicker coming out of college with a 4.65 40 compared to 4.75 on Hali. There are similarities in terms of size. Hali 6'3" 275, Merriman 6'4" 272.

Wishful thinking on my part.

Interestingly, CNNSI had Merriman graded as a 4.2 and Hali as a 4.19.

[booger]

I also think back to Todd Bowles, the asst. HC/DB coach in Miami, who was a hot HC candidate and many on here thought highly of him as a DC candidate.

When he interviewed in Detroit for the head job he mentioned that he was a 34 guy but didn't see a problem with a potential scheme change in detroit because they could always ease into things by going with a hybrid D in the first year or two.

That coming from a Parcells guy who like most all the parcells guys, like the 34.

Like pendergast did the first 2 seasons under Whiz in AZ, I see him doing the same here. After that who knows?

It's just to big of an adjustment to attempt a true/Steeler 34 and expect to compete if completely changing instead of gradually adjusting things.

[DRU]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

Outside containment responsibilities,

Did I get it right?

Yup, and I'm glad you did. All of those dumb ass TV announcers drive me crazy saying "outside contain."

[OctoberFart]

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

You think they are going to play a 34 one gap defense?

It's really a 50 4-3 defense ran with 3-4 personel. It is traditionally used when a team transitions to a full blown 3-4 like NE and is much easier to mask weaknesses. They did the same thing in NE and Balt when they transitioned.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by AutumnWind

It's really a 50 4-3 defense ran with 3-4 personel. It is traditionally used when a team transitions to a full blown 3-4 like NE and is much easier to mask weaknesses. They did the same thing in NE and Balt when they transitioned.

That may be your FIRST semi-intelligent post I've seen you make here.

[T-post Tom]

Nice post.