Have you ever used steroids, HGH, etc.?

[Saul Good]

Just curious to see who uses or has used these types of products and what your experiences were.

Did you have a specific reason for using them?

Did they work?

Did you experience any side effects?

[Easy 6]

An honest question for those of you who've used on some kind of regular basis... how much of the muscle mass that steroids produce are you actually able to keep once you stop using?

If you continue to lift on a good program, can you keep most of it? I ask because i read an Esquire article a long time ago where the author cycled on it several times, rapidly got huge and freakishly strong, but once he stopped the mass melted away no matter what he did to try and keep it... is that pretty much how it goes or have some of you had different results?

[BigCatDaddy]

Originally Posted by scott free

An honest question for those of you who've used on some kind of regular basis... how much of the muscle mass that steroids produce are you actually able to keep once you stop using?

If you continue to lift on a good program, can you keep most of it? I ask because i read an Esquire article a long time ago where the author cycled on it several times, rapidly got huge and freakishly strong, but once he stopped the mass melted away no matter what he did to try and keep it... is that pretty much how it goes or have some of you had different results?

That has been my experience, but I've heard others stay other wise.

[TheGuardian]

Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD

Honestly the level of dipshit in this thread has increased exponentially mostly run by internet 'experts' who don't actually know what they're talking about but since they read it on some steroid board they think they do. I could dismiss the purely asinine claims being made lately but honestly it's not worth my time. Frankly after I post here I'll put this shit on thread ignore because if people want to keep talking out their asses about it being safe by all means go right ahead.

Here are the issue with steroid abuse. The first set is ones in all honesty I don't think anyone will argue about...

QUOTE]Anabolic steroid abuse in athletes has been associated with a wide range of adverse conditions, including hypogonadism, testicular atrophy, impaired spermatogenesis, gynaecomastia, and psychiatric disturbance[/QUOTE

Hypogonadism, testicular atrophy, impaired spermatogenesis....in short issues with your balls. This one is really not rocket science if you add external testosterone then your body is going to stop producing the natural supply. The problem is your balls don't only produce testosterone, they produce other factors too some of which we may not measure well or understand the health implications of stopping production. One that is obvious is that your sperm can get all ****ed up because if your body doesn't produce test it can fool with the production of sperm also. Stopping steroids usually reverses many of these conditions(and people take other drugs to try to restart natural production). But if you keep cycling on and off there is no certainty that the body will always bounce back. Every time you shut it off it might not restart. Short term use probably less of an issue but long term it's all unknown.

gynaecomastia - affectionately known as bitch tits...in short you have too much estrogen which stimulates the growth of breast tissue. There are drugs that can help reduce some of the effects of this(i.e. the anti-estrogens etc). This one is probably the least damaging of the side affects and worst case you can get it removed with surgery.

psychiatric disturbance - otherwise known as roid rage, etc. Steriods can also trigger things like bipolar disorder etc. In short it can **** up your head ask Chris Benoit about this one. The magnitude depends of course on the individual but this is always a real risk.

Frankly I don't think even users are going to argue about any of above issues. They are issues but outside of the last one probably relatively modest to health outside of reproductive health.

But the bigger issue which they are still researching to understand why is the associated risk between steroids and what they call "Left ventricular hypertrophy". While ventricular hypertrophy itself is not a bad thing(it is when the heart gets bigger/stronger and pumps more...other wise known as athletes heart).

However in the case of "Left ventricular hypertrophy" the adding of heart muscle is detrimental to heart health. For whatever reason, most often due to things like hypertension or damage from heart attacks the left ventricular thickens increasing the risk of a host of heart problems. In some cases the LVH can be reversed, in others it cannot.

The exact pathology is unclear at this point but they have done studies on people who have and have not used anabolic steroids and those who have know and show a significantly larger incidence of 'Left ventricular hypertrophy'.

Honestly it's not terribly surprising what could be going on here. Heart hypertrophy is not in itself a bad thing, it helps the heart pump more blood. Both endurance athletes and strength athletes experience it. It is the strengthening of the heart muscle.

For whatever reason the data is showing that people who abuse anabolic steroids don't just have good heart muscle growth but also dysfunctional heart muscle growth. Now is this surprising? Given steroids help stimulate muscle growth it's not surprising they would also help grow the muscle in the heart too. The problem is that extra growth appears to go wrong and actually manifest as LVH. Frankly the fact the the growth goes wrong shouldn't be surprising either. If you're running at 2-3X normal body testosterone level who knows how your body is going to respond to levels that high.

This is the big issue, I don't believed they determined the exact reason this happens in steroids but they can show that LVH occurs significantly more even when you compare people that are exercising at the same levels(just some with steroids and some without).

Again everyone has know about the possible link between steroids and heart damage due to the deaths of NFLs from the 70s-80s with things like premature heart attacks and pro wrestlers too. The difference is they've been able to show now that there is 'bad' heart muscle growth in steroid users.

Steroids can be great at helping you build muscle the problem is they also appear to help the heart add muscle in a dysfunctional way. I suspect it has less to do with steroids and more to due with how much you are using. Use steroids to boost your T levels by a smallish amount there is probably minimal risk. But the more you take and the longer you do it the greater your risk for long term heart damage.

You may not see it today or even 10 years from now but it could show up as an early heart attack at a future point in life. There are pluses to using steroids but lets not pretend they are safe. They help build muscle, but not all muscle they build may be healthy(i.e. the LVH) in you heart. You may not see it today but that risk is always there. You have to decide if it's worth it to you.

Ok I'm out of this thread....

It's good that you're out because you just did a copy and paste that was full of ****ing fail.

LVH can be many things. It could be "athletic heart syndrome" which is seen in a lot of athletes that lift heavy, or ask the heart to perform under very hard conditions. Or it could be cardiomyopathy. The only way to know this is to get the measurement done in a pretty consistent basis and/or do things to let the muscle atrophy a bit.

The point is, why do you ****ing care? Even if that is the case, whose body is it? Yours? No. So why do you care? No one can ever answer that question.

[Easy 6]

Originally Posted by BigCatDaddy

That has been my experience, but I've heard others stay other wise.

That makes me want to reconsider trying it, i would think it would be too easy to want to keep that pump and end up doing one too many cycles to the point of doing some permanent damage.

[TheGuardian]

Originally Posted by scott free

An honest question for those of you who've used on some kind of regular basis... how much of the muscle mass that steroids produce are you actually able to keep once you stop using?

If you continue to lift on a good program, can you keep most of it? I ask because i read an Esquire article a long time ago where the author cycled on it several times, rapidly got huge and freakishly strong, but once he stopped the mass melted away no matter what he did to try and keep it... is that pretty much how it goes or have some of you had different results?

Pretty much that would happen yes. You have to remember you are altering your hormones, thus, altering the entire endocrine system. You synthesize protein more efficiently, you heal and recovery faster, everything gets "sped up". Yes, even some bad things if you aren't careful. But you can't go on cycle, come off, and retail anything really. That's why it's best to not come off. That's what it's meant to "blast and cruise". You go a term, say 10-12 weeks at high doses, then come down to low doses. You will retain everything on the low dose, but give your body a break from the higher doses of the androgens and anabolics.

[salame]

[Easy 6]

Originally Posted by TheGuardian

Pretty much that would happen yes. You have to remember you are altering your hormones, thus, altering the entire endocrine system. You synthesize protein more efficiently, you heal and recovery faster, everything gets "sped up". Yes, even some bad things if you aren't careful. But you can't go on cycle, come off, and retail anything really. That's why it's best to not come off. That's what it's meant to "blast and cruise". You go a term, say 10-12 weeks at high doses, then come down to low doses. You will retain everything on the low dose, but give your body a break from the higher doses of the androgens and anabolics.

Solid info, thanks man

[lewdog]

Some great info in this thread. Really surprised we have a handful of juicers here. So fed up with the bullshit that anyone who takes steroids is cheating. It won't make you elite anything and won't work nearly what it should if your training and diet isn't in check already. I have never jumped in the waters but have nothing against those who do. Most people who call it cheating for average joe's to use are just haters rooting for everyone else to fail so they themselves feel better.

I won't mess with any of it until after I have kids, if I even choose to do so. But after that, I could give two shits how my balls hang or if my boys can even swim.

[Fish]

There's a good sized study being done right now, should have results in a few years...

http://rt5.cceb.upenn.edu/portal/pag...PublicPageMain

Are Testosterone Supplements Worth the Risk?

A study published in the New England Journal of Medicine raised another potential risk: cardiovascular problems. The study tracked 200 men age 65 and older whose health concerns included difficulty walking and high blood pressure. The patients were prescribed a testosterone gel, which delivered significant improvement in their ability to lift weights and climb stairs, compared to men using a placebo. But the men also had four times the risk of chest pain, heart attack and stroke. The incidence of cardiovascular ailments was so high that the trial was called to a halt.

Given the apparently expanding list of known testosterone supplement risks, are they worth the trouble?

Geriatrician Thomas Gill, director of the Yale School of Medicine’s Program on Aging, is not ready to give up on the supplements. “It would be sending the wrong message if the recommendation is that all men stop treatment because of this study,” he says. He points out that it was the first (and, so far, only) trial to show an association between testosterone gel and heart problems. Moreover, the research was on a relatively small number of especially frail men who were given unusually high doses of the hormone. “If I were an older male without prior cardiovascular disease,” he says, “I wouldn’t lose much sleep over this one study.”

Detecting a link between testosterone gel and cardiovascular disease was not the mission of the New England Journal of Medicine study, but it raised enough questions that other researchers are now investigating it directly. Gill and his research team are working with the National Institutes of Health on a larger study of 800 men, known as “The T Trial,” designed to examine the effects of testosterone on the heart. “We are setting things up to carefully evaluate the cardiovascular effects of testosterone,” he says, adding that he will have results in about three years.

But Dr. Shalender Bhasin, chief of endocrinology at Boston University School of Medicine and a co-author of the New England Journal of Medicine study, believes we know enough already to at least consider testosterone supplements with a more critical eye. Doctors already know, for example, that water retention, which can put a strain on the heart and is associated with blood clots and tissue inflammation, is a potential side effect. So the link to cardiovascular disease is not especially surprising.

In general, Bhasin says, doctors should give more information to patients considering the treatments. For example, he says, "doctors don’t tell you that testosterone supplements may end up a long-term proposition." When men begin using a supplement, he explains, they typically lose the ability to create testosterone on their own. So if a health problem should arise that forces them to stop taking the supplements, it may take months or years to recover the ability to create adequate levels of testosterone naturally, during which time they may experience withdrawal symptoms like poor mood and low vitality.

“I find it very distressing that testosterone is used in middle-aged men — when we don’t know whether it’s even safe — for something that may be a normal physiologic adaptive mechanism to aging," he says.

Both experts agree that men with a history of heart attack or stroke should steer clear of testosterone supplements. They also agree that there are scenarios in which the benefits of testosterone therapy nearly always outweigh the risks, like hypogonadism, a disease in which the body produces little or no hormone due to poorly functioning testes or pituitary or hypothalamus glands.

Many men report feeling stronger and more vital, and thinking more clearly, on testosterone supplements. That may make it worth the risk if your testosterone count is low. But you should also give some thought to why you're pursuing a supplement, and its risks, despite what the late-night commercials promise.

Full article: http://www.nextavenue.org/article/20...nts-worth-risk

[lead_block]

Originally Posted by BigCatDaddy

Yes, you can purchase Anabolic Steroids at some stores legally. Epistane, Ultradrol, and RPN Havoc to name a few of the popular ones. Superdrol was the king of legal steroids. Freakish gains in about 3 weeks, but it would shut you down like a bitch. It just became illegal in 2012.

I could get M-Drol on Amazon right now...same stuff?

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by lewdog

Some great info in this thread. Really surprised we have a handful of juicers here. So fed up with the bullshit that anyone who takes steroids is cheating.

I believe they're cheating only if the rule book says they're cheating.

When McGuire and Sosa broke the home run record, they weren't cheating because it hadn't been deemed illegal by MLB.

Same goes for Bonds. I was at the Dodgers game when he was stuck on 714. I wanted to see history. I went the following night, only to see him hitless again. The very next night in San Diego, he tied Hank Aaron and broke the record thereafter.

I should have gone to San Diego.

That said, if some of the league is using performance enhancing drugs and some aren't, it doesn't make for a very level playing field. I'd prefer it to be either completely illegal or completely legal.

[Carlota69]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Come, Carlota. That's because 95% of those "hot" women are willing to be with a heavier/older man because it often comes with perks of not needing to work, or to have a job to support herself, among other things.

That's especially prevelant in places like Vegas, so your perception is probably skewed.



It's seen on TV but very rarely these days. While "King of Queens" was certainly the most obvious offender, for the most part, couples are generally equal in terms of looks and size.



I don't think it's more socially acceptable. I just think that most people don't care. Go to a beach in Florida and tell me you won't see equal overweight men and women. Go to Santa Monica beach and tell me you don't see overweight men and women in bathing suits on the beach.

The issue is that being overweight and obese is more prevalent than lean, fit people, especially among older adults.

Wow, you are not in tune with society at all are you? I see commercial after commercial with fat balding goofy guy with hot petite woman. It's way more common than the other way. And it has been for awhile. I can't even believe for a second that men are under the same scrutiny that women are when it comes to weight and looks and the value attached. It's not even close. I'm not saying men aren't scrutinized, but not nearly as heavily as women. I can't tell you how many times I've come across a bunch of fat, sloppy dudes putting down a woman because she has a muffin top, or her tits aren't perfect enough.

Men like Sean Connery can win sexist man alive at age 70, but I can't even think of woman who won Sexiest woman alive that was over 40. Woman are scrutinized more and we know it. I can't go to a beach and tell you how many fat women are there vs hot women, but I can tell you that women are more conscience of their fat hanging out and are more apt not to go to a pool party, whereas guys have no issue with it typically because no one cares, as you say. They don't care because its more socially acceptable. Plain and simple.

Again, I know men have their own issues with body image, vanity etc...but to say its equal is ridiculous.

[Carlota69]

Originally Posted by Saul Good

People get pissed off about this subject, and I can't figure out why.

Our football has sucked for too long...people are testy these days.

[Carlota69]

Originally Posted by BigCatDaddy

I think it's a stereo type issue. I'm getting the impression people view all users as guys like Jersey Shore douche bags, when in reality every day people with every day jobs like security guards, cops, firemen, teachers and computer programmers. I like my gym members better than your average guy walking the street. I can relate more to people that are busting their ass(yes even users bust their ass) and trying to better themselves then some slob at a bar stool. From my experience most of the guys I know in the gym and very cool guys and love helping out the novice lifters, but maybe that is just more of the midwest values. There is a level of respect given to each other.

Lots of stereotyping when it comes to this subject for sure.

[Carlota69]

Originally Posted by BigCatDaddy

Ahh, I see. That's usually jealousy to a point and again it's perceived that they might be attention whores even if that's not the case. I see hard work and dedication even if chemically enhanced, but I saw Hamas used the term "lazy" earlier and those guys are anything but so there is a perception problem. I busted my ass before TRT and I bust my ass after TRT I just now see better results. Walking 45 minutes on a step mill is damn tough no matter what you are taking.

Right? As if you just inject it and sit on the couch and the shit works...lol