Vermeil Isn't Sure Holmes Is The Answer... - Page 2

NaptownChief · 05-30-2001, 03:08 PM

This is anything but a positive article about Holmes...I hate to say I told you so before they hit the field so I will hold off but this is starting to smell a lot like my earlier predictions about the Priest:

According to Adam Teicher of the Kansas City Star, after watching newly signed running back Priest Holmes go through the paces during last week's mini-camp, Chiefs head coach Dick Vermeil and isn't convinced the 205-pounder is capable of carrying the entire load. And even though they'd love to see the former Raven to emerge as a legitimate feature back, the Chiefs are already planning on giving 235-pound fullback Tony Richardson a whole lot of carries.
"Tony will be a fullback and a halfback," Vermeil said, adding that Richardson is the likely candidate to play in the one-back formations his team is expected to rely on more than half the time. ...

The Chiefs are also said to be working on ways to get rookie Derrick Blaylock, Frank Moreau and Mike Cloud involved too, if need be.

Hmmm. ... Sounds suspiciously like a "committee" if you ask me. ...

And my guess says that ain't what the Chiefs had in mind when they handed Holmes a five-year, $8 million deal -- including a $2 million signing bonus -- last month.

It's certainly not what Vermeil had in mind.

"Anytime you have somebody you think is the best at his position, when you take him out of the game you shift into a second gear," the coach explained recently. "As I did with Wilbur Montgomery (in Philadelphia) and Marshall Faulk (in St. Louis), I leave them in the game and let them play. If they get tired, we take them out for a snap, then put them back in."

According to offensive coordinator Al Saunders, "The best teams that I have been associated with in the running game have had a marquee back who's been able to rush for 1,200 to 1,300 yards. ...

"Chuck Muncie rushed for over 1,000 yards (in San Diego) and Christian Okoye here in the early '90s was a tremendous rusher for us. When you look around the league, the teams that have been very successful have a back that they can count on to deliver the goods."

Yeah. ... Just like Holmes did as a Raven in 1998 when he rushed for 1,008 yards and seven touchdowns and caught 43 passes.

So. ... How long did it take the Chiefs to realize their expectations might be less-than-realistic?

I'd say Vermeil caught on right away.

"None of this will fully define itself until we get in full pads and go through training camp and get into the preseason games," he told reporters after the team's first workout last week. "If there's one clearly better, he'll carry the load. The other one gives him a breather if he needs it.

"I think we've added a high-quality football player. I think he brings a lot to the table and will be very tough to beat out. But if it happens, it happens. That will only make us a better football team."

Which is "coachspeak" for "Why did we give this guy a $2 million signing bonus?"

In fact, the only person who sounded more disappointed than Vermeil was Holmes. ... After all, he could have stayed in Baltimore and backed up Jamal Lewis as the Ravens defended their Super Bowl title this season. ... Or he could have gone to Philadelphia as well-paid insurance policy for Duce Staley.

But he went with the Chiefs -- in large part because he saw a gaping hole at running back in Kansas City.

"That's one reason I had my eye on this situation," Holmes said. "I wrote down goals on a piece of paper and matched them up to this situation. It wasn't a matter of me going out and just saying, `This is where I want to play.' I compared the teams to the goals, and KC came out on top.

"But it's not just that. This offense really complements the type of back I am. We're going inside, we're going outside. Right now, I'm just concentrating on running the ball, knowing the formations and getting the system down. Once that's done, I'll really get in the routine."

But that was then; this is now. ... And all the former University of Texas star can do now is put up a brave front. ...

"In the last couple years you've seen how successful teams have slowly switched the load as far as having two runners who can pull the load," Holmes explained. "As coach Vermeil stated, we'll have different types of attacks that we can come at teams with. The key is having a number of different players who can pull the load at any time.

"I think we can be hot because of what we call the three-headed monster. When you have a quarterback, some good receivers and running backs, you can kill (an opponent) slow or kill them fast. I think with the receivers and quarterback we have here, we can kill them fast. At the same time, we can kill them slow with Tony Richardson and myself."

Positives?

Here's the best I can do: Holmes racked up his 1,000 yards in 1998 on an average of 15 carries per game. ...

In the meantime, Vermeil continues to talk up Richardson, whose 5.7-yard per touch average ranked third in the league behind Faulk and Tiki Barber.

"He's a different-style runner and a very good football player," the former UCLA boss noted. "I don't think people hold Tony in as high esteem as they should. I think the combination of these two guys in the same backfield, or any one of these guys in the backfield, makes our running game better."

Bottom line?

"We'll be in a lot of one-back," Vermeil said.

What about the other guys?

According to SportsLine.com senior writer Len Pasquarelli, Blaylock, a fifth-round pick from Stephen F. Austin, posted the fastest 40 time at this year's scouting combine in Indianapolis (he was clocked at a blistering 4.34 second).

The 5-10, 190-pounder catches the ball well and could make an excellent change-of-pace back. Blaylock could also contribute as a punt returner.

Assessing the youngster's first mini-camp, Vermeil told reporters: "They're not wearing pads this weekend, so we won't learn anything we don't already know about Blaylock. ... We know he can run and has good hands. We'll see that again. But we don't know how his running instincts will be. You can't see those kinds of things in this environment."

Teicher wrote last week that the new staff is impressed with Moreau; but the second-year man will have to prove he's capable of protecting the ball before they give him many carries. ... After opening camp as the starting halfback last season, spot duty appears to be the best Cloud can hope for. ...

One last note out of Kansas City tonight. ...

According to Pro Football Weekly, Trent Green says he would like to be ready to go by the team’s June 11 mini-camp, but nothing has been etched in stone.

The fact is, Green continues to experience pain and swelling in his left knee after undergoing surgery earlier this year to remove scar tissue left over from reconstructive surgery performed in 1999. His failure to bounce back from this latest procedure kept him from working out for team officials in Kansas City prior to the trade from the Rams.

But Vermeil says he knows what he has in Green after coaching him in St. Louis, and he’s prepared to give him as long as he needs to get back to 100 percent. ... Green figures to assume an advisory role during mini-camps in an attempt to pick up the intricacies of the system and his new teammates.

BIG_DADDY · 05-30-2001, 04:10 PM

Great, just what we need another expensive mistake. What is it with RBs on this team? Is it really THAT hard to get someone signed in that position? Denver seems to pick up GREAT backs consistently without much effort at all. For that matter, everyone in our freaking division doesn't seem to have a problem picking up good backs.

BIG DADDY

If Preist sucks I am going to be pissed.:mad:

HC_Chief · 05-30-2001, 04:16 PM

BD - well, everyone else in our division was smart enough to know you pick ONE guy to carry the load. If he cannot do it, then you find someone who can. The key: players given the OPPORTUNITY to succeed or fail.

If we start fucking around with another committee approach, I'll go effing postal. I sh*t you not.

keg in kc · 05-30-2001, 04:30 PM

Ditto on that, HC.

I can deal with Holmes not panning out if he's given a legit chance. If T-Rich beats him out in TC, that's fine. So long as he was given an opportunity to show his stuff. I can deal with losing 1.6 million next offseason if Holmes doesn't pan out.

What I [i]can't[/i] deal with is any more of this bogus RBbC crap. No more unintelligent shuffling of backs in meaningless personnel groupings. No more taking guys out of the game just when they get their rhythm. If Holmes doesn't pan out because he's RB #1, 2, 3 or whatever in the KC committee 2001, then I will destroy things.

Many things.

In other words, the committee dying is infinitely more important to me than whether or not Priest Holmes is our starting RB on opening day.

DaWolf · 05-30-2001, 05:18 PM

Now wait. The winner of our division last year used a "committee" and will continue to do so this year. And the other team didn't even have a running back until they traded away the right to draft Michael Vick.

Even had we picked up Charlie Garner we'd be having the same conversation, because frankly TRich is too good to never give him the ball.

And to start drawing conclusions as to what Vermiel and Saunders will have their offense looking like at this point in the offseason is ludicrous.

We have what Vermiel feels are definitely two good backs. In all likelihood Holmes will be the starter, and TRich will be the fullback. When we are in a one back set, Vermiel has stated he feels TRich is best suited for that role, at this point. That may change. Many of those one back sets will be passing plays. TRich is an outstanding blocker. It makes sense. He can catch the ball. His versatility is a good thing. Being able to use both guys, assuming they are effective, is a good thing. If Priest Holmes is doing his thing, we'll probably keep feeding him the ball. If he isn't having a good game but a TRich can do solid things like against a Denveresque team, we feed him the ball. I have no problem with that. The difference between this type of committee and previous incarnations wil be defined in how often these guys get the ball. For example, if it is mainly Holmes and TRich and then they sprinkle some other guys in for a couple of plays, fine, Holmes and TRich can get in a groove and provide their 1-2 punch. If it is like in previous years where Shehee carries it 3 times, then Cloud comes in, then Anders comes in, then they give it to Richardson, then Moreau has to get a carry or two, then they have to pound it with Bennett, that would suck. But we'll have to wait and see. I'm not pushing the panic button just because some fantasy reporter is drawing what I feel are bogus assumptions from some harmless quotes during minicamp where they had zero pad work...

redsurfer11 · 05-30-2001, 05:38 PM

I have no problems with Tony Richardson sharing the carries with Priest Holmes,throw Blaylock and Cloud into the mix on third downs.The Chiefs will have plenty of running backs to make the offense work.

keg in kc · 05-30-2001, 05:41 PM

To compare the committee in Oakland to the one used in Kansas City is ridiculous. Although Oakland did use a number of backs, Wheatley was the clear-cut #1, and the numbers clearly reflect that:

Wheatley 232 carries for 1046 yards (also had 20 receptions)
Kaufman 93 carries for 499 yards (13)
Jordan 46 carries for 213 yards (27)
Crockett 43 carries for 130 yards (10)

A committee like that, where a single runner is the focus and where players are used intelligently is fine. That's not the committee we've seen here lately, though...

I want both the halfback and the fullback to be used. I just don't want to see 5 different guys getting carries every game, and playing in different packages which serve only hinder the offensive flow of the game.

DaWolf · 05-30-2001, 05:52 PM

[quote]To compare the committee in Oakland to the one used in Kansas City is ridiculous. Although Oakland did use a number of backs, Wheatley was the clear-cut #1, and the numbers clearly reflect that:[/quote]

Yes I know, I've watched Oakland firsthand for the past 11 years. And to compare our committees of the past to theirs is ludicrous. I'm not doing that. I am saying that if we use our backs in a way like they did, then I don't see the problem. If you go back to when Kaufman was healthy, there would be a bit more of a split in carries I believe. They'll probably go back to that this year with Wheatley and Garner. I'm saying that if we use our backs like that, there is no reason to start bitching about the "committee", and that's why I put the committee in quotation marks, because while it is a committee, that committee has a chairman, a vice chairman, and some other members that sometimes contribute. If we go back to the Gunther committee, we are screwed. But I doubt we'll be going to that mess of running backs we've seen in the past. It will probably be a lot more well defined and streamlined here.

[quote]That's not the committee we've seen here lately, though...[/quote]

This is an entirely different coaching staff, so I'm not basing my view of the committee on the mess we've seen here in the past. Dick Vermiel says that his philosophy is to maximize the touches playmakers get on the field. That means no more screens to a Donnell Bennett type back. Holmes will be fed the ball, TRich will be fed the ball, Blaylock if he proves he can make plays will occasionally get some plays, and the other guys will probably rarely see the field if the main guys are playing the way we need them to play. So until we see the Shehee/Bennett/Anders/Richardson/Cloud/Moreau backfield, I'm not worried...

keg in kc · 05-30-2001, 05:59 PM

I assumed as much, but thanks for the clarification. ;)

"Committee" and "Kansas City committee" are separate beasts altogether, although I will go further and say I want a single back to handle the load, no grey area for me in that. The question is, of course, whether or not we have someone who can do it...

DaWolf · 05-30-2001, 06:14 PM

I believe we have someone who can carry the ball 15-20 times a game. And realistically, this someone may wear down as the season goes on if he does have to be the main man, much like Charlie Garner has over the past 2 years. That is why I believe that if TRich does have these skills many of us feel he does have, we should go ahead and utilize him in conjunction with Holmes, and have a two headed monster, IF it is effective. And frankly we just don't know.

I mean sure, I'd prefer to have an Edgerrin James too. But we gotta make due with what we have. No back out there was an Edgerrin James. Heck, even Deuce McAllister, who I would have liked to have drafted, had his durability in question. He'll be splitting time with Ricky Williams.

My bottom line is this though: If we are going to even closely resemble the wide open style of the Rams offense, we are going to be a pass first team anyway. I anticipate while we're trying to score or build a lead, Holmes and TRich will both be in the backfield and Holmes will be the one getting the ball more because he has more moves and can make more plays. When we have a lead, TRich will be the one in there late in games in our one back set trying to use his strength against a hopefully worn down defense trying to protect the lead. If we can effectively use our backs in that capacity, then I'll be happy. We need to give our players their role and let them perform. The problem with Dumbther is that most times he kept guys in the dark as to what exactly they were supposed to be doing, and that leads to confused, unhappy players who will not perform as well.

But as with all things, we'll have to wait and see what actually materializes out there. Who knows, maybe both Holmes and TRuch suck and we'll be back to throwing it 50 times a game...

Recker24 · 05-30-2001, 06:29 PM

This article says nothing we didn't already know about our running back situation. Your title for this thread is very misleading. We all knew that Tony Richardson would be getting carries out of the one back set. This article that starts the thread, is a couple of different article jumbled together. The part about Holmes talking about the 3 headed monster is from [url]www.KCchiefs.com.[/url] It had nothing to do with Vermiel saying he didn't believe in Holmes this early. CHIEFS FANS, don't read in to this one. Holmes will be our featured back, who gets 20+ carries a game, with Richardson getting a handful as well. Richardson deserves some carries. The part in the article about Vermiel meaning that he spent to much money on Holmes is ridiculous. This thread is garbage. Sorry for being negative.

NaptownChief · 05-30-2001, 06:41 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Recker24 [/i]
[B]Your title for this thread is very misleading. [/B][/QUOTE]

The title of the thread is the title of the article....and again I say, I didn't write the damn article...

NaptownChief · 05-30-2001, 06:46 PM

Kegger,

Here is the news wire item that said Vermeil wants TRich running the 1 back set:

Chiefs | Team Notes - from KFFL ([url]http://nfl.kffl.com[/url])
April 28, 2001 4:34:05 ET The Kansas City Star reports the Kansas City Chiefs running game for the 2001 season, despite the recent signing of Priest Holmes, remains uncertain at this time. The team would still like to keep FB Tony Richardson involved in the running game and could mix in another back as a third-down specialist. However, head coach Dick Vermeil noted that if one running back steps up and shows he can get the job done, then he'll be the team's featured back and carry the load for the squad. Vermeil stated nothing will be shown for sure until the players go through training camp and pre-season games. The team plans to run a lot of one-back sets this year and Vermeil said they'd like to work Richardson into that formation.

NaptownChief · 05-30-2001, 07:16 PM

I will say this, if Holmes doesn't win the feature back role then it was mistake signing him...He was given starter money and 8 mil is way too much for a back up RB...Granted it wasn't franchise back type money, thank god, but it was a substantial chunk of change that could have bought some nice defensive FA's that will hit the market this week.

My gut feeling is that he is not as good as TRich...If TRich ends up our feature back it won't be a bad thing...He can play at a very high level with his size and speed...As most of you know, when I was busy pounding my Dan Morgan drum I said we would be in good shape with TRich as our feature back as long as they get rid of the stupid a$$ committee. He may not have the "wiggle" that everyone was quick to point out, but he has everything else. Okoye didn't have "wiggle"either but he worked out just fine when he was healthy and on the field.

Mark M · 05-31-2001, 06:01 AM

This doesn't make me nearly as upset as I thought it would. Why?

1. If either TRich or Holmes gets hurt, there is a backup waiting. This is a good insurance policy.
2. $8 million isn't chump change, but the signing bonus is relatively small in NFL terms, thus we can cut him without a huge cap hit. It's not as expensive as we think.
3. The team hasn't even taken the field yet. Let's not get our panties in a bunch until the games begin. Some players are different in practice than they are on the field. The guy may emerge as a heckuva player.

Now, I still like the idea of TRich in 1-back sets, mainly due to his catching ability (somewhere Blaylock shines as well) and his ability to pick-up the blitz. But Holmes can work in that capacity as well. The guy is a 1,000 yard rusher afterall ... and that was when Baltimore sucked.

Just my thoughts. Hate to hit and run, but need to get before I get caught. :(

MM
~~Refining the art of the hit-and-run post.

keg in kc · 05-31-2001, 08:15 AM

Nap,
I've gotta say there's a big difference between Vermeil being on record as saying T-Rich will "most likely be the back used in our 1 back sets" to what I read in that statement. All that says is that they want to "work Richardson into that formation" and Vermeil "noted that if one running back steps up and shows he can get the job done, then he'll be the team's featured back and carry the load for the squad" followed up by a statement that "nothing will be shown for sure until the players go through training camp and pre-season games."

Looks like to me it's just more of the statements to the effect of Vermeil seeing that Richardson is better than he thought (i.e. the one about "Everyone says T-Rich has weaknesses but I don't see one" or something like that). Nothing in there says that Holmes doesn't look good, etc., and more recent statements seem to indicate that Priest is looking good to the coaching staff, but that the job will be won by the guy who shows he can play at the highest level, which I see no problem with.

DaWolf's assessment in the third paragraph of reply 24 pretty much covers what I think, by the way, about how this will all shape out, and Mark's right, too, as much as folks complain about paying for Holmes, we have at worst a quality backup for roughly the same amount we're paying T-Rich, and combined that's less than what some teams are paying for a single back. We really could have a 2 headed monster here if things pan out. And, at worst, if Holmes doesn't pan out, then we're out 1.6 million against next year's salary cap (or that amount divided between 2002 and 2003), so it's not really that huge of a hit. We're not exactly talking about a Chet-type screw-up here...

05-30-2001, 03:08 PM
NaptownChief Football Pimp Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Indianapolis,IN Casino cash: $9974900	Vermeil Isn't Sure Holmes Is The Answer... This is anything but a positive article about Holmes...I hate to say I told you so before they hit the field so I will hold off but this is starting to smell a lot like my earlier predictions about the Priest: According to Adam Teicher of the Kansas City Star, after watching newly signed running back Priest Holmes go through the paces during last week's mini-camp, Chiefs head coach Dick Vermeil and isn't convinced the 205-pounder is capable of carrying the entire load. And even though they'd love to see the former Raven to emerge as a legitimate feature back, the Chiefs are already planning on giving 235-pound fullback Tony Richardson a whole lot of carries. "Tony will be a fullback and a halfback," Vermeil said, adding that Richardson is the likely candidate to play in the one-back formations his team is expected to rely on more than half the time. ... The Chiefs are also said to be working on ways to get rookie Derrick Blaylock, Frank Moreau and Mike Cloud involved too, if need be. Hmmm. ... Sounds suspiciously like a "committee" if you ask me. ... And my guess says that ain't what the Chiefs had in mind when they handed Holmes a five-year, $8 million deal -- including a $2 million signing bonus -- last month. It's certainly not what Vermeil had in mind. "Anytime you have somebody you think is the best at his position, when you take him out of the game you shift into a second gear," the coach explained recently. "As I did with Wilbur Montgomery (in Philadelphia) and Marshall Faulk (in St. Louis), I leave them in the game and let them play. If they get tired, we take them out for a snap, then put them back in." According to offensive coordinator Al Saunders, "The best teams that I have been associated with in the running game have had a marquee back who's been able to rush for 1,200 to 1,300 yards. ... "Chuck Muncie rushed for over 1,000 yards (in San Diego) and Christian Okoye here in the early '90s was a tremendous rusher for us. When you look around the league, the teams that have been very successful have a back that they can count on to deliver the goods." Yeah. ... Just like Holmes did as a Raven in 1998 when he rushed for 1,008 yards and seven touchdowns and caught 43 passes. So. ... How long did it take the Chiefs to realize their expectations might be less-than-realistic? I'd say Vermeil caught on right away. "None of this will fully define itself until we get in full pads and go through training camp and get into the preseason games," he told reporters after the team's first workout last week. "If there's one clearly better, he'll carry the load. The other one gives him a breather if he needs it. "I think we've added a high-quality football player. I think he brings a lot to the table and will be very tough to beat out. But if it happens, it happens. That will only make us a better football team." Which is "coachspeak" for "Why did we give this guy a $2 million signing bonus?" In fact, the only person who sounded more disappointed than Vermeil was Holmes. ... After all, he could have stayed in Baltimore and backed up Jamal Lewis as the Ravens defended their Super Bowl title this season. ... Or he could have gone to Philadelphia as well-paid insurance policy for Duce Staley. But he went with the Chiefs -- in large part because he saw a gaping hole at running back in Kansas City. "That's one reason I had my eye on this situation," Holmes said. "I wrote down goals on a piece of paper and matched them up to this situation. It wasn't a matter of me going out and just saying, `This is where I want to play.' I compared the teams to the goals, and KC came out on top. "But it's not just that. This offense really complements the type of back I am. We're going inside, we're going outside. Right now, I'm just concentrating on running the ball, knowing the formations and getting the system down. Once that's done, I'll really get in the routine." But that was then; this is now. ... And all the former University of Texas star can do now is put up a brave front. ... "In the last couple years you've seen how successful teams have slowly switched the load as far as having two runners who can pull the load," Holmes explained. "As coach Vermeil stated, we'll have different types of attacks that we can come at teams with. The key is having a number of different players who can pull the load at any time. "I think we can be hot because of what we call the three-headed monster. When you have a quarterback, some good receivers and running backs, you can kill (an opponent) slow or kill them fast. I think with the receivers and quarterback we have here, we can kill them fast. At the same time, we can kill them slow with Tony Richardson and myself." Positives? Here's the best I can do: Holmes racked up his 1,000 yards in 1998 on an average of 15 carries per game. ... In the meantime, Vermeil continues to talk up Richardson, whose 5.7-yard per touch average ranked third in the league behind Faulk and Tiki Barber. "He's a different-style runner and a very good football player," the former UCLA boss noted. "I don't think people hold Tony in as high esteem as they should. I think the combination of these two guys in the same backfield, or any one of these guys in the backfield, makes our running game better." Bottom line? "We'll be in a lot of one-back," Vermeil said. What about the other guys? According to SportsLine.com senior writer Len Pasquarelli, Blaylock, a fifth-round pick from Stephen F. Austin, posted the fastest 40 time at this year's scouting combine in Indianapolis (he was clocked at a blistering 4.34 second). The 5-10, 190-pounder catches the ball well and could make an excellent change-of-pace back. Blaylock could also contribute as a punt returner. Assessing the youngster's first mini-camp, Vermeil told reporters: "They're not wearing pads this weekend, so we won't learn anything we don't already know about Blaylock. ... We know he can run and has good hands. We'll see that again. But we don't know how his running instincts will be. You can't see those kinds of things in this environment." Teicher wrote last week that the new staff is impressed with Moreau; but the second-year man will have to prove he's capable of protecting the ball before they give him many carries. ... After opening camp as the starting halfback last season, spot duty appears to be the best Cloud can hope for. ... One last note out of Kansas City tonight. ... According to Pro Football Weekly, Trent Green says he would like to be ready to go by the team’s June 11 mini-camp, but nothing has been etched in stone. The fact is, Green continues to experience pain and swelling in his left knee after undergoing surgery earlier this year to remove scar tissue left over from reconstructive surgery performed in 1999. His failure to bounce back from this latest procedure kept him from working out for team officials in Kansas City prior to the trade from the Rams. But Vermeil says he knows what he has in Green after coaching him in St. Louis, and he’s prepared to give him as long as he needs to get back to 100 percent. ... Green figures to assume an advisory role during mini-camps in an attempt to pick up the intricacies of the system and his new teammates.
Posts: 4,357

05-30-2001, 04:10 PM	#16
BIG_DADDY THE RED MENACE Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Texas Casino cash: $5098410	Great, just what we need another expensive mistake. What is it with RBs on this team? Is it really THAT hard to get someone signed in that position? Denver seems to pick up GREAT backs consistently without much effort at all. For that matter, everyone in our freaking division doesn't seem to have a problem picking up good backs. BIG DADDY If Preist sucks I am going to be pissed.:mad: __________________ The diabolical genius of Marxism-Socialism is that it provides the emotional and intellectual road map for autocrats to persuade millions of people to support their own enslavement to government. ~Mark Levin April 15, 2019
Posts: 32,384

05-30-2001, 04:16 PM	#17
HC_Chief That's just f***in' stupid Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: suburbia Casino cash: $3687107	BD - well, everyone else in our division was smart enough to know you pick ONE guy to carry the load. If he cannot do it, then you find someone who can. The key: players given the OPPORTUNITY to succeed or fail. If we start fucking around with another committee approach, I'll go effing postal. I sh*t you not.
Posts: 12,355

05-30-2001, 04:30 PM	#18
keg in kc oxymoron Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: OP/KC/Whatever Casino cash: $9556299	Ditto on that, HC. I can deal with Holmes not panning out if he's given a legit chance. If T-Rich beats him out in TC, that's fine. So long as he was given an opportunity to show his stuff. I can deal with losing 1.6 million next offseason if Holmes doesn't pan out. What I [i]can't[/i] deal with is any more of this bogus RBbC crap. No more unintelligent shuffling of backs in meaningless personnel groupings. No more taking guys out of the game just when they get their rhythm. If Holmes doesn't pan out because he's RB #1, 2, 3 or whatever in the KC committee 2001, then I will destroy things. Many things. In other words, the committee dying is infinitely more important to me than whether or not Priest Holmes is our starting RB on opening day.
Posts: 58,682

05-30-2001, 05:18 PM	#19
DaWolf Cry havoc... Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10007725	Now wait. The winner of our division last year used a "committee" and will continue to do so this year. And the other team didn't even have a running back until they traded away the right to draft Michael Vick. Even had we picked up Charlie Garner we'd be having the same conversation, because frankly TRich is too good to never give him the ball. And to start drawing conclusions as to what Vermiel and Saunders will have their offense looking like at this point in the offseason is ludicrous. We have what Vermiel feels are definitely two good backs. In all likelihood Holmes will be the starter, and TRich will be the fullback. When we are in a one back set, Vermiel has stated he feels TRich is best suited for that role, at this point. That may change. Many of those one back sets will be passing plays. TRich is an outstanding blocker. It makes sense. He can catch the ball. His versatility is a good thing. Being able to use both guys, assuming they are effective, is a good thing. If Priest Holmes is doing his thing, we'll probably keep feeding him the ball. If he isn't having a good game but a TRich can do solid things like against a Denveresque team, we feed him the ball. I have no problem with that. The difference between this type of committee and previous incarnations wil be defined in how often these guys get the ball. For example, if it is mainly Holmes and TRich and then they sprinkle some other guys in for a couple of plays, fine, Holmes and TRich can get in a groove and provide their 1-2 punch. If it is like in previous years where Shehee carries it 3 times, then Cloud comes in, then Anders comes in, then they give it to Richardson, then Moreau has to get a carry or two, then they have to pound it with Bennett, that would suck. But we'll have to wait and see. I'm not pushing the panic button just because some fantasy reporter is drawing what I feel are bogus assumptions from some harmless quotes during minicamp where they had zero pad work...
Posts: 6,798

05-30-2001, 05:38 PM	#20
redsurfer11 Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Casino cash: $10004900	I have no problems with Tony Richardson sharing the carries with Priest Holmes,throw Blaylock and Cloud into the mix on third downs.The Chiefs will have plenty of running backs to make the offense work.
Posts: 2,581

05-30-2001, 05:41 PM	#21
keg in kc oxymoron Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: OP/KC/Whatever Casino cash: $9556299	To compare the committee in Oakland to the one used in Kansas City is ridiculous. Although Oakland did use a number of backs, Wheatley was the clear-cut #1, and the numbers clearly reflect that: Wheatley 232 carries for 1046 yards (also had 20 receptions) Kaufman 93 carries for 499 yards (13) Jordan 46 carries for 213 yards (27) Crockett 43 carries for 130 yards (10) A committee like that, where a single runner is the focus and where players are used intelligently is fine. That's not the committee we've seen here lately, though... I want both the halfback and the fullback to be used. I just don't want to see 5 different guys getting carries every game, and playing in different packages which serve only hinder the offensive flow of the game.
Posts: 58,682

05-30-2001, 05:52 PM	#22
DaWolf Cry havoc... Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10007725	[quote]To compare the committee in Oakland to the one used in Kansas City is ridiculous. Although Oakland did use a number of backs, Wheatley was the clear-cut #1, and the numbers clearly reflect that:[/quote] Yes I know, I've watched Oakland firsthand for the past 11 years. And to compare our committees of the past to theirs is ludicrous. I'm not doing that. I am saying that if we use our backs in a way like they did, then I don't see the problem. If you go back to when Kaufman was healthy, there would be a bit more of a split in carries I believe. They'll probably go back to that this year with Wheatley and Garner. I'm saying that if we use our backs like that, there is no reason to start bitching about the "committee", and that's why I put the committee in quotation marks, because while it is a committee, that committee has a chairman, a vice chairman, and some other members that sometimes contribute. If we go back to the Gunther committee, we are screwed. But I doubt we'll be going to that mess of running backs we've seen in the past. It will probably be a lot more well defined and streamlined here. [quote]That's not the committee we've seen here lately, though...[/quote] This is an entirely different coaching staff, so I'm not basing my view of the committee on the mess we've seen here in the past. Dick Vermiel says that his philosophy is to maximize the touches playmakers get on the field. That means no more screens to a Donnell Bennett type back. Holmes will be fed the ball, TRich will be fed the ball, Blaylock if he proves he can make plays will occasionally get some plays, and the other guys will probably rarely see the field if the main guys are playing the way we need them to play. So until we see the Shehee/Bennett/Anders/Richardson/Cloud/Moreau backfield, I'm not worried... Last edited by DaWolf; 05-30-2001 at 05:55 PM..
Posts: 6,798

05-30-2001, 05:59 PM	#23
keg in kc oxymoron Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: OP/KC/Whatever Casino cash: $9556299	I assumed as much, but thanks for the clarification. ;) "Committee" and "Kansas City committee" are separate beasts altogether, although I will go further and say I want a single back to handle the load, no grey area for me in that. The question is, of course, whether or not we have someone who can do it...
Posts: 58,682

05-30-2001, 06:14 PM	#24
DaWolf Cry havoc... Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10007725	I believe we have someone who can carry the ball 15-20 times a game. And realistically, this someone may wear down as the season goes on if he does have to be the main man, much like Charlie Garner has over the past 2 years. That is why I believe that if TRich does have these skills many of us feel he does have, we should go ahead and utilize him in conjunction with Holmes, and have a two headed monster, IF it is effective. And frankly we just don't know. I mean sure, I'd prefer to have an Edgerrin James too. But we gotta make due with what we have. No back out there was an Edgerrin James. Heck, even Deuce McAllister, who I would have liked to have drafted, had his durability in question. He'll be splitting time with Ricky Williams. My bottom line is this though: If we are going to even closely resemble the wide open style of the Rams offense, we are going to be a pass first team anyway. I anticipate while we're trying to score or build a lead, Holmes and TRich will both be in the backfield and Holmes will be the one getting the ball more because he has more moves and can make more plays. When we have a lead, TRich will be the one in there late in games in our one back set trying to use his strength against a hopefully worn down defense trying to protect the lead. If we can effectively use our backs in that capacity, then I'll be happy. We need to give our players their role and let them perform. The problem with Dumbther is that most times he kept guys in the dark as to what exactly they were supposed to be doing, and that leads to confused, unhappy players who will not perform as well. But as with all things, we'll have to wait and see what actually materializes out there. Who knows, maybe both Holmes and TRuch suck and we'll be back to throwing it 50 times a game...
Posts: 6,798

05-30-2001, 06:29 PM	#25
Recker24 Starter Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Iowa Casino cash: $10004900	This article says nothing we didn't already know about our running back situation. Your title for this thread is very misleading. We all knew that Tony Richardson would be getting carries out of the one back set. This article that starts the thread, is a couple of different article jumbled together. The part about Holmes talking about the 3 headed monster is from [url]www.KCchiefs.com.[/url] It had nothing to do with Vermiel saying he didn't believe in Holmes this early. CHIEFS FANS, don't read in to this one. Holmes will be our featured back, who gets 20+ carries a game, with Richardson getting a handful as well. Richardson deserves some carries. The part in the article about Vermiel meaning that he spent to much money on Holmes is ridiculous. This thread is garbage. Sorry for being negative.
Posts: 69

05-30-2001, 06:41 PM	#26
NaptownChief Football Pimp Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Indianapolis,IN Casino cash: $9974900	[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Recker24 [/i] [B]Your title for this thread is very misleading. [/B][/QUOTE] The title of the thread is the title of the article....and again I say, I didn't write the damn article... __________________ "We weren't worth a damn," the Kansas City Chiefs head coach said, shaking his head. "I'm not worth a damn. No one's worth a damn..." Former President of the Eric Downing Fan Club and Current President of the Kris"Secret Weapon"Wilson Fan Club
Posts: 4,357

05-30-2001, 06:46 PM	#27
NaptownChief Football Pimp Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Indianapolis,IN Casino cash: $9974900	Kegger, Here is the news wire item that said Vermeil wants TRich running the 1 back set: Chiefs \| Team Notes - from KFFL ([url]http://nfl.kffl.com[/url]) April 28, 2001 4:34:05 ET The Kansas City Star reports the Kansas City Chiefs running game for the 2001 season, despite the recent signing of Priest Holmes, remains uncertain at this time. The team would still like to keep FB Tony Richardson involved in the running game and could mix in another back as a third-down specialist. However, head coach Dick Vermeil noted that if one running back steps up and shows he can get the job done, then he'll be the team's featured back and carry the load for the squad. Vermeil stated nothing will be shown for sure until the players go through training camp and pre-season games. The team plans to run a lot of one-back sets this year and Vermeil said they'd like to work Richardson into that formation. __________________ "We weren't worth a damn," the Kansas City Chiefs head coach said, shaking his head. "I'm not worth a damn. No one's worth a damn..." Former President of the Eric Downing Fan Club and Current President of the Kris"Secret Weapon"Wilson Fan Club
Posts: 4,357

05-30-2001, 07:16 PM	#28
NaptownChief Football Pimp Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Indianapolis,IN Casino cash: $9974900	I will say this, if Holmes doesn't win the feature back role then it was mistake signing him...He was given starter money and 8 mil is way too much for a back up RB...Granted it wasn't franchise back type money, thank god, but it was a substantial chunk of change that could have bought some nice defensive FA's that will hit the market this week. My gut feeling is that he is not as good as TRich...If TRich ends up our feature back it won't be a bad thing...He can play at a very high level with his size and speed...As most of you know, when I was busy pounding my Dan Morgan drum I said we would be in good shape with TRich as our feature back as long as they get rid of the stupid a$$ committee. He may not have the "wiggle" that everyone was quick to point out, but he has everything else. Okoye didn't have "wiggle"either but he worked out just fine when he was healthy and on the field. __________________ "We weren't worth a damn," the Kansas City Chiefs head coach said, shaking his head. "I'm not worth a damn. No one's worth a damn..." Former President of the Eric Downing Fan Club and Current President of the Kris"Secret Weapon"Wilson Fan Club
Posts: 4,357

05-31-2001, 06:01 AM	#29
Mark M What time is it? Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: You tell me ... Casino cash: $9884900	After thinking about it ... This doesn't make me nearly as upset as I thought it would. Why? 1. If either TRich or Holmes gets hurt, there is a backup waiting. This is a good insurance policy. 2. $8 million isn't chump change, but the signing bonus is relatively small in NFL terms, thus we can cut him without a huge cap hit. It's not as expensive as we think. 3. The team hasn't even taken the field yet. Let's not get our panties in a bunch until the games begin. Some players are different in practice than they are on the field. The guy may emerge as a heckuva player. Now, I still like the idea of TRich in 1-back sets, mainly due to his catching ability (somewhere Blaylock shines as well) and his ability to pick-up the blitz. But Holmes can work in that capacity as well. The guy is a 1,000 yard rusher afterall ... and that was when Baltimore sucked. Just my thoughts. Hate to hit and run, but need to get before I get caught. :( MM ~~Refining the art of the hit-and-run post. __________________ ChiefsPlanet -- n. The place where brilliant minds assemble to willfully pool ignorance with questionable logic in order to reach absurd conclusions.
Posts: 4,687

05-31-2001, 08:15 AM	#30
keg in kc oxymoron Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: OP/KC/Whatever Casino cash: $9556299	Nap, I've gotta say there's a big difference between Vermeil being on record as saying T-Rich will "most likely be the back used in our 1 back sets" to what I read in that statement. All that says is that they want to "work Richardson into that formation" and Vermeil "noted that if one running back steps up and shows he can get the job done, then he'll be the team's featured back and carry the load for the squad" followed up by a statement that "nothing will be shown for sure until the players go through training camp and pre-season games." Looks like to me it's just more of the statements to the effect of Vermeil seeing that Richardson is better than he thought (i.e. the one about "Everyone says T-Rich has weaknesses but I don't see one" or something like that). Nothing in there says that Holmes doesn't look good, etc., and more recent statements seem to indicate that Priest is looking good to the coaching staff, but that the job will be won by the guy who shows he can play at the highest level, which I see no problem with. DaWolf's assessment in the third paragraph of reply 24 pretty much covers what I think, by the way, about how this will all shape out, and Mark's right, too, as much as folks complain about paying for Holmes, we have at worst a quality backup for roughly the same amount we're paying T-Rich, and combined that's less than what some teams are paying for a single back. We really could have a 2 headed monster here if things pan out. And, at worst, if Holmes doesn't pan out, then we're out 1.6 million against next year's salary cap (or that amount divided between 2002 and 2003), so it's not really that huge of a hit. We're not exactly talking about a Chet-type screw-up here...
Posts: 58,682