NFL MVP

[Mile High Mania]

Interesting debates on these every year, here's one from ESPN.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12...demarco-murray

Peyton, Rodgers, Brady, Murray, Watt, Luck...

Where would you guys lean? I don't know, part of me tends to lean towards Murray quite honestly. I think Peyton's crazy 2013 year hurts the image of what he's done in 2014, especially when compared against the other QBs that are getting all the MVP talk. Peyton's right there with them.

Aside from all that, I think it's a pretty even race among the QBs in the discussion... I wouldn't give it Watt, I think my vote with be DeMarco.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Hootie 2.0

Oh I'm on record totally calling that a drop I'm just pointing things out to Amnorix who has every excuse in the book for Brady not winning anything meaningful in over a decade yet real quick to try and point out choke jobs from other QB's.

So you're on record calling it a drop, but now you're calling it an overthrow instead so you can win this argument? And you wonder why people wonder about you.

Brady has lost home playoff games to Joe Flacco and Mark Sanchez and has been abysmal in other wins in the postseason (see AFCCG against the Ravens in the Lee Evans game) and has played considerably worse football in the postseason than he has in the regular season for an entire decade now ...

I think he's used up all of his passes, and then probably about 100 more, at this point.

We both recognize what this is about. In the eternal battle of Manning v. Brady, you have to try to tear down Brady so your boy, Manning, will be recognized by everyone as the best NFL QB EVAH!

We can go round and round. In fact, we have many times before on this very topic. You can continue to spin the truth however you want to achieve your goal, but it doesn't change what the truth is.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

Manning's problem was he never had a complete team as often as Brady had during that run. (mainly looking at that IND defense) Right now, I dare say that Manning has one of the better teams around him that he's had in his career.

There's actually some data that undermines that.

First, let's start with the talent Brady vs. Manning has had to work with on their own side of the ball.

The all-decade 2000s team had two Colts on it other than the QB (Edgerring James and Marvin Harrison). The Patriots had Moss, who only played with Brady for three of those years, as opposed to most/all of the decade.

On defense, it was 2:1 Patriots (Seymour/Law vs. Freeney). While Manning had some years where his defense was not spectacular to say the least, he had many years where his defense was anywhere from very good to, in fact, great. Their Super Bowl run the year they won it was all about their defense FINALLY clicking (after an abysmal regular season) and performing very well in the playoffs.

The ultimate bottom line is that both are great QBs, but neither can win a SB by themself. Brady has typically done more with less, I think, than Manning, but Belichick also makes alot of that possible in terms of building a better TEAM even with what may be perceived as lesser talent.

To describe Brady as a choker, however, is ludicrous. He has won as much or more in every conceivable way of calculating it both regular season and playoffs than any other QB in history, except the actual Super Bowl, where he is ONE behind the all-time leader in wins.

[Mile High Mania]

The truth for me is that I believe while it makes for fun debates, it's rather pointless to try and brand any player the best ever at his position.

You have tiers of greatness and the eras in which they played the game matters. Put Manning and Brady in the 50s-70s and you likely have different thoughts, results, stats.

Put the greats of 4 decades ago into the game now and who knows.

So, I think it does everyone of them a disservice to rank them without taking the era they played into consideration. Now, you can compare Manning and Brady and say that one is better than the other. That's fine. You can look at stats, wins, rings and have no issue saying Brady is better than Manning, you'd be right. How can you argue the production?

But, when it comes to the greatest ever... I tapped out on that argument years ago.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

There's actually some data that undermines that.

.

Peyton Manning has played with plenty of strong, Super Bowl-caliber defenses

Manning played with really bad defenses in his rookie season of 1998 and again in 2001. Brady played with a strong defense in his debut season of 2001 and a great defense in 2003.

Those first impressions created storylines that linger today: the average fan says Manning's career has been burdened by terrible defenses, while Brady has benefited from the defensive genius of Bill Belichick.

The reality, the Cold, Hard Football Facts, are quite a bit different. The 2005 Colts boasted the No. 2 defense in football, surrendering just 15.4 PPG on their way to a 14-2 record.

The 2005 Colts, with Peyton Manning and an elite defense, went one-and-done in the playoffs, losing 21-18 at home when Manning and the offense struggled to get into gear and, indeed, had produced just a single field goal through three quarters.

Remember the 16-0 Patriots of 2007? Well, it was Peyton Manning's Colts which boasted the league's No. 1 defense that year, surrendering just 16.4 PPG. Those 2007 Colts, which paired Peyton Manning with the best defense in football, also failed to win a single playoff game. The heavily favored Colts lost at home 28-24 to the Chargers.

Manning in that game threw picks on consecutive possessions inside Chargers territory, including one with the ball sitting at the San Diego 4 yard line.

The 2012 Broncos paired Peyton Manning with the league's No. 4 scoring defense; yet again, that team failed to win a single playoff game. Manning threw a pick-six and an ugly overtime INT to seal Denver's fate in a 38-35 loss to the Ravens.

Including this season, Manning has played with seven different defenses that ranked in the Top 8 in scoring. Brady has played with eight different defenses that ranked in the Top 8 in scoring.

Manning's teams have surrendered an average of 21.4 PPG; Brady's teams 18.8 PPG. But Manning has played with Super Bowl-caliber defenses throughout his career, nearly as often as Brady.

Each quarterback has played once with the best defense in football. Brady rode that defense to 15 straight victories and a Super Bowl title during the 2003 season; Manning shit the bed with that defense and went one-and-done in the playoffs during the 2007 season.

[Mile High Mania]

Yeah, you wanna see a great QB carry a team with 'iffy' defenses, look at the late 80s and Denver.

IND had losses in 2003 and 2004 @ NE, one for the AFCC and another in the Div round.

This is no slight to NE, because you fight for home field advantage. Since 2001, they've played in (I believe) 26 playoff games. 5 were SBs ... so 21 games that would not be a neutral site, and only 6 of those were on the road.

15 home and 6 on the road - and they are 3-3 on the road.

They've done well.

[Hootie]

What a hypocrite. These guys post that one article from a website called 'coldhardfootballfacts' and treat it as gospel. It's a fanboy blog. Nothing more.

Please, explain to me Brady's postseason ineptitude the last 10 years. That's all I ask.

And the Brady overthrow / Welker drop never would have happened had Lee Evans caught a pass in the AFCCG where Brady was a total abortion.

Please, Annorix, try to not mention Peyton Manning in your rebuttal here:

Why has Tom Brady been awarded a decade of passes for abysmal postseason performance? Why does he get to lose home playoff games to guys like Mark Sanchez and Joe Flacco and continually underperform yet face no criticism for being a great regular season QB but a so so playoff QB?

Still waiting for an actual answer.

[Hootie]

And I didn't realize Tom Brady doubled as the kicker 10 years ago and made all of those clutch, Super Bowl winning kicks. That was a badass snow kick by him in the tuck rule game. Man, he used to be so clutch as a game managing QB / clutchest postseason kicker ever a decade ago

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Even if it is, which I don't view it as being, it would still be on the offensive line, not Brady.


Only in Hootie's world does Brady get penalized for winning MORE...

It's Hootie talking QBs. He's clueless on the subject.

[Hootie]

because I'm the one quoting 'coldhardfootballfacts.com' and acting like it is fact and not just some fanboy blog?

I mean, I've had like 5 different Patriots fans link me to that one article on that one website I've never even heard of.

Wow. Stunning.

ALL I WANT TO KNOW IS WHY TOM BRADY HAS GOTTEN 10 YEARS OF PASSES FOR POSTSEASON INEPTITUDE THAT INCLUDES BLOWING 19-0, LOSING TO MARK SANCHEZ AND JOE FLACCO, AT HOME (FLACCO MORE THAN ONCE), PLAYING PUTRID FOOTBALL AND ALMOST BLOWING ANTOHER AFCCG IF NOT FOR LEE EVANS DROPPING TWO TD PASSES ON THE RAVENS FINAL DRIVE WITH NO TIME REMAINING (AND THEN BLOWING ANOTHER SUPER BOWL THE FOLLOWING WEEK), BLOWING AN 18 POINT LEAD IN THE AFCCG TO PEYTON MANNING THAT INCLUDED A GAME ENDING PICK IN INDIANAPOLIS TERRITORY, ETC...

WHY DOES TOM BRADY GET EXCUSES ANYMORE?

HE HAS PLAYED HIS WORST FOOTBALL IN THE POSTSEASON FOR 10+ YEARS NOW. HE HAS LOST GAME AFTER GAME IN WHICH THEY WERE FAVORED TO WIN.

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME NEW ENGLAND WASN'T FAVORED IN THE POSTSEASON?

THEY WERE FAVORED TO BEAT THE GIANTS IN THE SUPER BOWL BY 13.5 POINTS AND BRADY PUT UP A WHOPPING 14 POINTS WITH RANDY MOSS, WES WELKER, DONTE STALLWORTH AND AN OFFENSE THAT BROKE EVERY RECORD ALL YEAR LONG AND NEVER LOST A SINGLE GAME AGAINST A SPREAD AND THEY WERE FAVORED EVERY GAME ALL YEAR LONG.

WHY IS HE STILL GETTING PASSES?

BECAUSE HE WAS A GREAT GAME MANAGER WHEN THE PATS HAD THE BEST DEFENSE IN THE NFL (ACCORDING TO THESE SAME PATRIOTS FANS) IN 2001, 2003 AND 2004 (NOT TO MENTION SPYGATE)?

HE GETS PASSES FOR BEING A GAME MANAGER 10+ YEARS AGO?

WHY?

WHY?

PLEASE, SOMEONE ANSWER THIS.

WHY IS TOM BRADY STILL GETTING PASSES FOR FAILING IN THE POSTSEASON 10 YEARS IN A ROW ... IN GAMES HE HAS BEEN FAVORED IN ALMOST EVERY SINGLE TIME?

I NEED AN ANSWER. I DON'T WANT THE ANSWER TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH PEYTON MANNING.

GIVE ME AN ANSWER.

[Hootie]

...didn't think so

[Mile High Mania]

I dunno, since winning their 3rd SB...

The Patriots are 11-9 in the playoffs.
0-2 in SuperBowls played
2-3 in AFC Championship games

So, since winning 3, they've played for the right to go again 5 times - getting there two more times. That's fairly impressive.

[Hootie]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

I dunno, since winning their 3rd SB...

The Patriots are 11-9 in the playoffs.
0-2 in SuperBowls played
2-3 in AFC Championship games

So, since winning 3, they've played for the right to go again 5 times - getting there two more times. That's fairly impressive.

What is Manning's playoff record since Brady's last Super Bowl?

[Hootie]

And when was the last time Manning lost to Brady in the playoffs?

Is it possible that Tom Brady fits the billing of playoff choker more than Peyton Manning since Tom could only win the big one when all he was asked to do was manage games?

[Mile High Mania]

Don't know and don't care quite honestly... I'm done looking at NE playoff stats.

[Just Passin' By]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

I dunno, since winning their 3rd SB...

The Patriots are 11-9 in the playoffs.
0-2 in SuperBowls played
2-3 in AFC Championship games

So, since winning 3, they've played for the right to go again 5 times - getting there two more times. That's fairly impressive.

Hootie is a Peyton ball washer who can't handle Manning's sidekick status, so he trolls on and on about the Patriots. It's sad and hilarious at the same time.