Should steroid use determine who is in the HOF?

[whoman69]

With the recent Roger Clemens decision, whether players that have been involved with steroids should be part of the baseball HOF has come back into the discussion. Thus far the writers have sent a resounding no to that answer.

Keep in mind that part of the criteria for the baseball hall deals with off the field issues as well. Players like Orlando Cepeda were kept out of the hall for years because of their connections to drugs while borderline players like Keith Hernandez did not even come close to election. The All-time hits king is not even eligible because of betting on baseball.

BTW, there is no Gaz option. If you don't like baseball or don't care about this issue, why are you even reading this?

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Originally Posted by blaise

From the steroid era?

LOL well I'd have to look that up but I'm sure Bonds wouldn't be the first. That's not my point anyway. I'm saying I don't believe if Bonds doesn't make it, it will be because he's black. He was an asshole to the media... and they have a vote. The "perception that he cheated" is strong so others who vote won't likely like that. Pete Rose cheated and he's not in... is that racist?

It wouldn't surprise me if Bonds played the race card if he doesn't get in but really who takes that seriously anymore except for the one accusing people of it?

[Deberg_1990]

Originally Posted by whoman69

There was an interesting argument on Dan Patrick this morning. He essentially torpedoes the argument that players like Bonds and Clemens were HOF worthy before they started taking. He said that if you're worthy, you don't cheat. Pretty convincing argument IMO. He pointed out that these players made a choice because the union nixed testing all those years so they couldn't get caught. The players who made the choice to take steroids did so in the hopes of making more money. Clemens career earnings before coming to the Blue Jays, which is when most agree that if he used that is when he started, was $30 million. He earned $120 million after that. Bonds earned $7 million prior to coming to the Giants, and $180 million after.

I think this is a pretty interesting take.....

Is it any coincidence that the Roids era took off at the same time as salaries started to skyrocket??

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Originally Posted by blaise

He wasn't associated with Balco or steroids. I'm using Bonds as a standard for guys whose careers have been associated with steroids.

But you also said he'd get in so it doesn't look like racism kept him out. That's what changed the arguement.

[blaise]

Originally Posted by Dr. Johnny Fever

LOL well I'd have to look that up but I'm sure Bonds wouldn't be the first. That's not my point anyway. I'm saying I don't believe if Bonds doesn't make it, it will be because he's black. He was an asshole to the media... and they have a vote. The "perception that he cheated" is strong so others who vote won't likely like that. Pete Rose cheated and he's not in... is that racist?

It wouldn't surprise me if Bonds played the race card if he doesn't get in but really who takes that seriously anymore except for the one accusing people of it?

My initial point is that there's going to be steroid era guys that come up for vote. If a voter now says no to McGwire there's no real risk of any backlash. Even with Clemens there wouldn't be.
But I remember when Bonds was going for the HR record under a cloud of steroids use. The radio conversation was largely about race. If a HOF voter says no to Bonds he may open himself up to a discussion about race, or someone saying he's racist. Especially if he's a guy like Richard Justice that does radio and has fans call in the show. I think some of them may just say, "You know what? He was a HOFer already. I don't want to get into a racial debate. I'm just going to vote him in." Then once that happens, how do you say no to Clemens?
Pete Rose is banned from baseball and therefore not eligible for the HOF anyway.

[blaise]

Originally Posted by Dr. Johnny Fever

But you also said he'd get in so it doesn't look like racism kept him out. That's what changed the arguement.

I think he'll get in because his numbers are good enough and partly because some won't want to be accused of racism, yes. I don't see why that has anything to do with Griffey. The topic of the thread is steroid use and the HOF.

[Dr. Johnny Fever]

Fair enough blaise, we'll just have to agree to disagree about the race thing. I don't think it'll be a big player but you could end up being right.

The point about Griffey being in is that he DIDN'T break the rules and gets in, and he's black. So Bonds really doesn't have a leg to stand on imo if he plays race because he doesn't get in. No... he's a suspicious charactor to most people so they're uncomfortable voting for him.

Of course since he obviously does have the resume and was NOT proven to have used steroids that could make it a little dicier. I guess they could use the excuse that he was convicted of lying to congress if they wanted to.

[whoman69]

Originally Posted by tredadda

Bonds. He will be eligible before Clemens.

Clemens is eligible next year. Bonds never officially retired, but may retroactively retire if that is allowed.

[Rain Man]

If the eliminate all the steroid users, we'll end up with busts of Brodie Croyle and Todd Pinkston in Canton.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by Reaper16

Yes, but not an eliminating factor.

Name me an old-school Hall of Famer from the '30s on who you can reasonably say WASN'T using amphetamines. You can't.

Baseball players have been taking things to improve bodily performance for the entire history of the game. Players will always be looking to whatever they can get away with to get an edge.

All of this, except I don't see any good reason for it to be a factor at all (especially with players like Clemens and Bonds who are clearly among the best players of all time).

I can't say I've ever cared about baseball players wanting to use PEDs to improve their chances of success at this sport. As for the HOF, if you're going to keep out all steroid users (which include some of the best players in baseball history), you'll also have to take out all the amphetamine users from the past, too. And that's a long, long list.

[cosmo20002]

Originally Posted by blaise

Bonds will get in because the writers don't want to be called racists.

That is a bizarre opinion.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by whoman69

There was an interesting argument on Dan Patrick this morning. He essentially torpedoes the argument that players like Bonds and Clemens were HOF worthy before they started taking. He said that if you're worthy, you don't cheat. Pretty convincing argument IMO.

In what world is keeping up with your competition by taking drugs that weren't against the rules "cheating?"

The only thing Bonds and Clemens are guilty of is being that much better than everyone else while taking the same drugs. They shouldn't be punished for that.

[cosmo20002]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

In what world is keeping up with your competition by taking drugs that weren't against the rules "cheating?"

The only thing Bonds and Clemens are guilty of is being that much better than everyone else while taking the same drugs. They shouldn't be punished for that.

They were against the rules. Illegal use of controlled substances was against the rules.

And Clemens I don't believe has ever been convicted of nor admitted steroid use. Bonds has admitted use.

[Mama Hip Rockets]

It's called the Hall of FAME. Not the Hall of Good Citizens.

Barry Bonds is famous. He should be in the Hall of Fame.

[beach tribe]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Steroids or not, those people still went out and did what they did against others using the same shit.

Steroids obviously do not help out pitchers quite as much as they help out batters. There are some players out there who absolutely would have not made it into the HOF without them, and they are mostly the ones who didn't get caught. Clemons would have gotten into the Hall without Steroids.

[beach tribe]

Originally Posted by thurman merman

It's called the Hall of FAME. Not the Hall of Good Citizens.

Barry Bonds is famous. He should be in the Hall of Fame.

Bonds is another guy who would have gotten into the Hall either way. His #s wouldn't have been so gaudy, and he wouldn't hold the records (Maris , and Aaron would actually still have em') but to exclude him from the hall would be ridiculous IMO.