Lakers have fired Mike Brown

[L.A. Chieffan]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

The Tri can make the PG irrelevant, but doesn't have to.

All you do is essentially use Kobe in a SF role, rather than have him bringing the ball up. If you have Nash as the primary facilitator in the tri, you'd have a very dangerous setup with Kobe in wings cutting without the ball.

The only reason PG was irrelevant under the Triangle as we know it, is we know it as being run by Kobe and Jordan; guys that dominated the ball. That offense would absolutely work well with Nash facilitating and Kobe flashing through the wings.

That's not the triangle that's the Princeton which we just got rid of

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by L.A. Chieffan

That's not the triangle that's the Princeton which we just got rid of

The Triangle takes many of the same principles of the Princeton and actually develops them.

The Tri is an evolutionary Princeton concept. It's what the Princeton should be but isn't (because slow, unathletic, part-time athletes were the guys that used it in the past).

It's a watered down triangle, so to speak. When you take the best athletes in the world, with nothing but basketball to do all day and have them run the Princeton, it's giving Wolfgang Puck the task of grilling hot dogs.

The Triangle, on the other hand, is a Filet. It can absolutely utilize the PG position if you have guys that believe in it. The Lakers didn't believe in the Princeton system because it was a massive step back for the holdovers. Moreover, it's easily diagnosed and defended. I'm not even convinced that the Lakers 'didn't get it'; I think it's just too easy a system for this level and it was exposed as such.

[DaKCMan AP]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

When you take the best athletes in the world, with nothing but basketball to do all day and have them run the Princeton, it's giving Wolfgang Puck the task of grilling hot dogs.

Are we talking Hebrew National/Nathan's or Ball Park?

[mcaj22]

Originally Posted by L.A. Chieffan

You don't have to be a genius to learn the triangle but the triangle makes a pg irrelevant. We'd have arguably the best PG in the game the last 15 years standing around wishing he was in Toronto.

he has not been the best PG in the game the last 15 years

lol

[L.A. Chieffan]

Originally Posted by mcaj22

he has not been the best PG in the game the last 15 years

lol

Ok ten years

[Brooklyn]

Dwight will be garbage under Mike. His philosophy with the center is to be in position to get out on the fast break, not protect the rim. He'll keep him out on the wing chucking threes. That's how he likes his big men.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn

Dwight will be garbage under Mike. His philosophy with the center is to be in position to get out on the fast break, not protect the rim. He'll keep him out on the wing chucking threes. That's how he likes his big men.

Dwight Howard could also end up as Shawn Marion on Hulk juice.

Sure, there's a chance it goes poorly, I won't deny it. But it could also go extremely well. Anyone that claims to know either way is just guessing.

We've never seen D'Antoni use a guy with Howards athleticism.

And for the record, Stoudamire shot a total of 66 3-pointers in 364 games under D'Antoni (31 of them in Stoudamire's last year, when he was just being a petulant shit and chucking for giggles) while in PHX. Howard's going to be used in a substantially similar fashion, I would imagine. If you'll recall, Stoudamire was a force under the hoop for several years. Hell, Amare was even putting up 25 PPG in NY for a season when he was a shell of his PHX self.

Howard has more ability than Stoudamire ever did.

Dial it down a bit, sport. I feel like you're just something of a jilted Knicks fan at this point.

I think this is a mediocre hire at best, but only because the option was a much better one. Had Phil Jackson declined all interest in the Lakers, D'Antoni would have been seen as a nice replacement for Brown.

He's not Phil Jackson, but D'Antoni is still among the better basketball coaches out there.

[lcarus]

So what I've heard is that Phil wants to come back for 10 million a season, but doesn't want to travel to coach away games? Would that include the playoffs? That seems like a pretty steep request, to not want to be there for half their games.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by lcarus

So what I've heard is that Phil wants to come back for 10 million a season, but doesn't want to travel to coach away games? Would that include the playoffs? That seems like a pretty steep request, to not want to be there for half their games.

I'd be a little wary of 'the reports' right now.

Guys like Steve Broussard are going to do everything they can to not look like idiots that jumped the gun. Now they're going to try to paint a narrative of Phil Jackson just wanting way too much and that's what submarined it.

There's no way Jackson refused to coach for any away games and there's most certainly no way he said he wouldn't coach playoff games. At worse he would've asked for the travel schedule he had when he had his hip surgery which still had him coaching 70(ish) games.

Beware Broussard and the rest that have some ass to cover right now.

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I'd be a little wary of 'the reports' right now.

Guys like Steve Broussard are going to do everything they can to not look like idiots that jumped the gun. Now they're going to try to paint a narrative of Phil Jackson just wanting way too much and that's what submarined it.

There's no way Jackson refused to coach for any away games and there's most certainly no way he said he wouldn't coach playoff games. At worse he would've asked for the travel schedule he had when he had his hip surgery which still had him coaching 70(ish) games.

Beware Broussard and the rest that have some ass to cover right now.

LA Reporter chick on Dan Patrick Show today said it's all smoke to get LA fan not to give the Lakers heat for not picking up Phil, that in fact Lakers never got to the money talking phase with Phil and wanted D'toni as the better short-term option.

[-King-]

ESPN said that Phil was very shocked when he learned D'Antoni got the job.


I'd say it's half and half Phil asking for a lot and Jim Buss trying to distance himself from Phil.

I actually don't mind D'Antoni. We have enough defensive talent that we should be decent, and he'll make Nash/Howard/Pau shine in the pick and roll.

[DJ's left nut]

Here's a good article on the 'backlash' here:

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...ead-the-lakers

Spoiler!

Shawn Marion, fiercely proud and a little defensive, was fond of telling reporters during the height of the Seven Seconds or Less Era in Phoenix that players made “genius” coaches like Mike D’Antoni look good.

Marion is obviously oversimplifying. Head coaches are hugely important, maybe third on the importance hierarchy in any franchise, behind only the owner and the franchise superstar (if one is present). There are a few reasons why Chicago will rank among the three or five best defensive teams this season and going forward, but Tom Thibodeau’s presence is probably the biggest factor.

But a coach can only work with the players on hand, and the Lakers’ roster brings some structural issues — largely outlined here — that were going to challenge whomever the team named as Mike Brown’s in-season replacement. In a shocking reversal, they’ve chosen D’Antoni’s spread pick-and-roll system over the triangle and Phil Jackson, whose salary demands and requests for broader organization control were apparently too much for the Buss family, per the Los Angeles Times and others. Inking D’Antoni to a three-year deal, with an option for a fourth season, may also be a signal that the Lakers believe his style is a better fit for the only pieces — Steve Nash and Dwight Howard — on the books beyond 2013-14, assuming the Lakers convince Howard to re-sign this summer on a max deal.

The other stars, Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol, are Jackson acolytes and Triangle wizards, and Jackson’s 11 rings stand as evidence he may have been the very best choice for the 2011-12 Lakers. If D’Antoni was a second choice, he stands as a very fine one. You know his history with Nash. Those Phoenix teams were not just great offensive squads; they were some of the very best in basketball history. D’Antoni and Kobe Bryant are tight dating to Bryant’s childhood years in Italy, where D’Antoni was an elite player, and now to D’Antoni’s work as a longtime Team USA assistant. Howard may be the most efficient pick-and-roll big man in the world, and the Lakers will now build their offense around Howard and perhaps the greatest pick-and-roll point guard in NBA history. That will drive Bryant into a secondary role, but he has already shown that he can thrive finding easier buckets as an off-ball cutter and post-up beast against weaker defenders. Pau Gasol will find his spots, because he’s Pau Gasol and that’s what he does — all while making everyone else around him better with his next-level passing.

D’Antoni is a very smart guy. He will adapt his offense to fit the personnel here; Phoenix remained an elite offensive team despite some pretty major roster shakeups, including the loss of Joe Johnson to free agency; the absence of Amar’e Stoudemire for essentially the entire 2005-06 season; and the presence of a paint-clogging Shaquille O’Neal in the last part of the 2007-08 season, when the Suns ranked no. 2 overall in points per possession and scored just as efficiently with O’Neal on the court as off.

There are challenges, obviously:

• Nash turns 39 in February and has a small fracture in the fibula of his left leg. D’Antoni’s entire offense is based around Nash’s combination of historically great shooting and play-making, and if Nash can’t be 90 percent of himself when the games really matter, D’Antoni will have to adjust accordingly. Bryant is a solid pick-and-roll ball handler who has long worked as the team’s best off-the-dribble creator, but he can’t replicate what Nash does. Steve Blake gets into the paint off the bounce once or twice a week. Chris Duhon could barely cross half court last year without throwing the ball to the other team, though he played well under D’Antoni in New York. Darius Morris is an almost total NBA unknown.

Again: D’Antoni is smart enough to adjust for any long-term Nash limitations, and any team with Gasol and Howard could build an effective inside-out offense in a pinch. But Nash’s health is paramount if the Lakers want a realistic shot at getting through at least three very tough playoff series — and perhaps four, depending on their seeding.

• The same spacing issues are still here. Bryant is an average 3-point shooter. Nobody pays any attention to Metta World Peace on the perimeter, even as Peace has built himself into a league-average 3-point shooter, especially from the corners. He’s too slow now to replicate the Marion role as a weak-side kickout option capable of catching a skip pass as the defense wanders from him, and then driving hard into the lane for a layup or floater. Gasol’s range extends nicely to 20 feet, but he needs time to set his feet from there, and he won’t do much for you standing behind the 3-point arc.

As I wrote Friday, Gasol is a center who for the last two years has been forced into a square-peg-round-hole fit alongside another low-post center. Lamar Odom is no longer around to space the floor and break up the two-center effect. It was never ideal that three of the team’s four best players rarely played together as result of the spacing issues Odom presented as a small forward, but his versatility allowed the Lakers to maximize what they had.

You can pack the paint on these Lakers. Nash is by far the best shooter on the team, and one reason the Princeton offense made some sense was the idea that the Lakers could benefit by using Nash away from the ball as a spot-up threat to whom defenders could not yield even a sliver of space. Nash will be on the ball all the time now, meaning the four defenders away from it won’t have to worry about a single elite long-distance shooter.

There are remedies. Bryant has long been one of the best cutters in the league, a fact that made his determination to ball-hog all the more irritating. Antawn Jamison, one of the only useful players on a thin bench, might work as a capable long-range shooting power forward alongside Howard, instead of in the weird small forward role in which Brown used him. World Peace is in great shape, cuts well, and, like Kobe, can do damage in the post against the right defenders. Gasol’s passing makes a cramped floor feel less cramped.

Jodie Meeks is also here, though Brown sort of forgot about him. Bryant has often slid to small forward, especially when both Jordan Farmar and Shannon Brown were around and moderately productive; it would not be a surprise if D’Antoni took an extended look at a Nash/Meeks/Bryant/Gasol/Howard lineup.

But the roster is never going to be ideal, which is why Gasol trade rumors will never stop. D’Antoni’s system worked with everyone in Phoenix, but it worked best with Stoudemire as the lone inside force, diving to the rim in beautiful concert with Nash as shooters dotted the perimeter around them. D’Antoni has two inside-first bigs now and so-so outside shooting among his starters. This will be a challenge, but the Lakers should rank among the league’s 10 best offenses — as they do now — regardless of system. The talent is that good, and talent figures things out. But champions usually rank better than that, and they’ll need to find a top-five level of play on at least one side of the ball. Which brings us to:

• Defense. Spare me the nonsense that D’Antoni doesn’t coach defense, or that his Phoenix teams were terrible defensively. They ranked right around the league average in points allowed per possession during most of his tenure there. Our collective addiction to points per game and (declining) ignorance about pace made it appear the Suns were hemorrhaging points like the Warriors. They weren’t.

Nor were D’Antoni’s Knicks, at least the version that was actually trying to win games instead of engaging in a prolonged LeBron James roster tear-down. The Knicks ranked around ninth or 10th in points allowed per possession when D’Antoni resigned, and though they improved under the defense-first Mike Woodson, the absence of Stoudemire, and Carmelo Anthony’s sudden decision that earning $20 million meant he should actually try hard, had something to do with that improvement.

Please also spare me the dreck about how D’Antoni’s system “failed” in the playoffs or “can’t win” titles. Two conference finals berths in an ultracompetitive West is not a failure. The Suns suffered a disproportionate amount of bad luck in the postseason. Joe Johnson’s orbital fracture cost him the first two games of the 2005 conference finals. Stoudemire was out for the entirety of the 2006 postseason, and several other key guys, including Raja Bell and Kurt Thomas, were in street clothes for part of that run. The suspensions of Boris Diaw and Stoudemire for Game 5 of the conference semifinals against San Antonio in 2007 shifted the entire series.

Luck is a factor in every playoff run. So are injuries. You don’t have to go back even one year to realize that. You could also ask Jerry West about luck, health, and the difficulty of winning even one title despite a “clutch” reputation. The people who ignore luck, injuries, matchups, and a dozen other variables that help determine the league championship every season are the same people who said LeBron would never win one because of some internal weakness.

There are examples, too, of teams that won titles or nearly won them using the Phoenix model of fantastic offense and average defense. The 2010-11 Mavs blew the doors off everyone in the playoffs while allowing points at a league-average rate during their postseason run. That understates how good the Mavs were defensively, since they were top-10 in the regular season and faced some of the best scoring teams in the league during the small playoff sample size. The 1994-95 Rockets had a similar offense-first run, playing just good enough defense against four scoring machines.

But such runs are the exception. A top-10 defense is a borderline must-have for any team that wants the title. Even some of the very “worst” defensive teams to seriously contend for a ring or even win one — the 2001 Lakers, 1998 Jazz, and 1994 Rockets, for instance — turned mediocre regular-season defenses into stingy playoff juggernauts. Neil Paine’s essential research at Basketball-Reference has shown that an elite defense is slightly more important in winning a title than an elite offense, though both are crucial.

D’Antoni’s Phoenix way can work, but it is not ideal. The Heat were able to weather their own bad injury luck in part because, even without Chris Bosh, they could lean upon a very strong defense.

The idea that D’Antoni doesn’t coach defense is ridiculous. It’s all over Seven Seconds or Less, Jack McCallum’s must-read book about the 2005-06 Suns, and one conversation with the guy or a coach who has worked with him will reveal that D’Antoni talks a ton about defensive Xs and Os. He has a lot of ideas to guard Star Wing X, and he knows very well that Big Guy Y likes to spin baseline on post-ups.

But it isn’t his specialty, and he has never had a rock-solid system on which to fall back. He’s had a few assistants that specialized on that end; Marc Iavaroni helped in Phoenix, and Alvin Gentry brought some old-school “knock him on his ass” toughness. But neither brought anything close to Thibodeau-level tactical brilliance and fundamental soundness. It’s hard to imagine a coach from any really good defensive team saying what Gentry said before a 2006 conference finals game against Dallas (via McCallum’s book):

“I’ll be honest with you guys. If you asked me right now what we’re supposed to do if Jason Terry and somebody screen-and-roll, I wouldn’t know if we’re doubling, trapping, or doing nothing. I just think we’re getting too many things going on.”

D’Antoni is a tinkerer, but he’s not a defense-first guy, and he has lacked a systematic approach. He famously turned down a chance to hire Thibodeau in Phoenix as a defensive specialist.

Of course, he’ll now have Howard, the very best defensive player in the league when healthy. That may be all it takes; how good might Phoenix’s average defensive teams have been with Howard in Stoudemire’s place?

We’re going to find out as the latest Lakers’ mini-season — D’Antoni without Nash — begins shortly. Nash’s return will mark the start of another season in what promises to be a drama-filled campaign. D’Antoni, at least, is used to drama.

Again, D'Antoni may not be Jackson, but he's still a good coach and clearly the 2nd best option available. He could really do well with this team, especially with a guy like Howard that is essentially Stoudamire's equal offensively with a far higher level of commitment to the defensive side of the spectrum.

Give the hire some time. It's not Jackson, but it's still a good get.

[Mother****erJones]

Lakers are very stupid hahah!! Im a long time bulls fan. Should've never let Phil leave. Do whatever it took to keep him. D'Antoni's system wont win a championship. Phil has what 10?

[L.A. Chieffan]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--la...-11051709.html

Good woj article, Phil didn't just ask for every damn thing under the sun he wanted to embarrass Buss too

[DJ's left nut]

Again, I'd take absolutely everything that's coming out right now with a huge grain of salt.

There are a lot of very powerful, well connected people that are going to try to save face both as parties and as 3rd parties (reporters, etc...).

I'd say that the best you're going to get in any article here is a half truth.

Bottom line: The Lakers got a good coach that isn't quite as good as Jackson but is a HELL of a lot better than Brown. Hell, he's better than Spoelstra. This is ultimately a positive development when all is said and done for the Lakers.