Male activists want say in unplanned pregnancy - Page 9

Hammock Parties · 03-09-2006, 08:24 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/08/fa....ap/index.html

Male activists want say in unplanned pregnancy

Lawsuit seeks right to decline financial responsibility for kids

NEW YORK (AP) -- Contending that women have more options than they do in the event of an unintended pregnancy, men's rights activists are mounting a long shot legal campaign aimed at giving them the chance to opt out of financial responsibility for raising a child.

The National Center for Men has prepared a lawsuit -- nicknamed Roe v. Wade for Men -- to be filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Michigan on behalf of a 25-year-old computer programmer ordered to pay child support for his ex-girlfriend's daughter.

The suit addresses the issue of male reproductive rights, contending that lack of such rights violates the U.S. Constitution's equal protection clause.

The gist of the argument: If a pregnant woman can choose among abortion, adoption or raising a child, a man involved in an unintended pregnancy should have the choice of declining the financial responsibilities of fatherhood. The activists involved hope to spark discussion even if they lose.

"There's such a spectrum of choice that women have -- it's her body, her pregnancy and she has the ultimate right to make decisions," said Mel Feit, director of the men's center. "I'm trying to find a way for a man also to have some say over decisions that affect his life profoundly."

Feit's organization has been trying since the early 1990s to pursue such a lawsuit, and finally found a suitable plaintiff in Matt Dubay of Saginaw, Michigan.

Dubay says he has been ordered to pay $500 a month in child support for a girl born last year to his ex-girlfriend. He contends that the woman knew he didn't want to have a child with her and assured him repeatedly that -- because of a physical condition -- she could not get pregnant.

Dubay is braced for the lawsuit to fail.

"What I expect to hear [from the court] is that the way things are is not really fair, but that's the way it is," he said in a telephone interview. "Just to create awareness would be enough, to at least get a debate started."

State courts have ruled in the past that any inequity experienced by men like Dubay is outweighed by society's interest in ensuring that children get financial support from two parents. Melanie Jacobs, a Michigan State University law professor, said the federal court might rule similarly in Dubay's case.

"The courts are trying to say it may not be so fair that this gentleman has to support a child he didn't want, but it's less fair to say society has to pay the support," she said.

Feit, however, says a fatherhood opt-out wouldn't necessarily impose higher costs on society or the mother. A woman who balked at abortion but felt she couldn't afford to raise a child could put the baby up for adoption, he said.
'This is so politically incorrect'

Jennifer Brown of the women's rights advocacy group Legal Momentum objected to the men's center comparing Dubay's lawsuit to Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling establishing a woman's right to have an abortion.

"Roe is based on an extreme intrusion by the government -- literally to force a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want," Brown said. "There's nothing equivalent for men. They have the same ability as women to use contraception, to get sterilized."

Feit counters that the suit's reference to abortion rights is apt.

"Roe says a woman can choose to have intimacy and still have control over subsequent consequences," he said. "No one has ever asked a federal court if that means men should have some similar say."

"The problem is this is so politically incorrect," Feit added. "The public is still dealing with the pre-Roe ethic when it comes to men, that if a man fathers a child, he should accept responsibility."

Feit doesn't advocate an unlimited fatherhood opt-out; he proposes a brief period in which a man, after learning of an unintended pregnancy, could decline parental responsibilities if the relationship was one in which neither partner had desired a child.

"If the woman changes her mind and wants the child, she should be responsible," Feit said. "If she can't take care of the child, adoption is a good alternative."

The president of the National Organization for Women, Kim Gandy, acknowledged that disputes over unintended pregnancies can be complex and bitter.

"None of these are easy questions," said Gandy, a former prosecutor. "But most courts say it's not about what he did or didn't do or what she did or didn't do. It's about the rights of the child."

Matt Dubay contends his ex-girlfriend assured him she was unable to get pregnant.

Simplex3 · 03-09-2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katipan

Far too many health risks due to pregnancy to allow anyone else control over it.

How about guys who earn their living doing dangerous jobs? High stress jobs?

Far too many health risks involved in working to allow anyone else control over it.

jspchief · 03-09-2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

There are so many things that can be debated... especially when you put the argument out there about "it's a woman's body, she can do as she wishes concerning abortion."

If you're a guy, you have 3 very simple options...

1) Don't have sex
2) If you have sex, wrap it up
3) If you have sex, pull out well before anything happens

If you dance on the wildside carelessly then it's time for both parties to own up to it. Abortion is still legal in this country and you can't force a woman to do it or not to do it if you're the potential daddy.

The guy has all the control he needs to have prior to dropping his pants. After that, you deal with the cards you get.

And this folks, is how men end up as daddies....

Pulling out before you nut is playing russian roulette. Pre-ejaculatory excretions contain sperm too.

Nothing like some nice misinformation in a lecture on how to not get a girl pregnant.

Katipan · 03-09-2006, 02:38 PM

you first

Katipan · 03-09-2006, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simplex3

How about guys who earn their living doing dangerous jobs? High stress jobs?

Far too many health risks involved in working to allow anyone else control over it.

Yes but see thats the punishment both parents have for having sex.

Having to work for their child for the rest of their lives.

Only one person has to be pregnant. Only one person gets to make all the choices.

Don't want us to make all your choices? Choose a different sex, or a different method of sex.

Simplex3 · 03-09-2006, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katipan

you first

The last time I fell for that I was 10.

Katipan · 03-09-2006, 02:47 PM

I don't honestly know one woman who would unjustifiably deny visitation to a father.

keg in kc · 03-09-2006, 02:49 PM

The solution here is just for everyone to stop having sex.

Sadly, I'm on the front line of that movement.

stevieray · 03-09-2006, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katipan

Yes but see thats the punishment both parents have for having sex.

Having to work for their child for the rest of their lives.

Only one person has to be pregnant. Only one person gets to make all the choices.

Don't want us to make all your choices? Choose a different sex, or a different method of sex.

I've never looked at my girls as punishment, more like a blessing.

And in that I believe lies part of the problem..too many people look at children as a burden, and not as a gift.

Why does it seem that you only hear about abstinence when it applies to men? Let's not pretend that women don't control what happpens sexually in a relationship.

Simplex3 · 03-09-2006, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katipan

I don't honestly know one woman who would unjustifiably deny visitation to a father.

You must be kidding. Either you don't know any divorced couples or your definition of "justifiable" needs work.

Katipan · 03-09-2006, 02:53 PM

I said it negatively because of his whine about high stress jobs.

We've established over and over that it's both parties fault. The premise of the thread however is men wanting more rights over it.

bkkcoh · 03-09-2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

The solution here is just for everyone to stop having sex.

Sadly, I'm on the front line of that movement.

Is that self-imposed or other?????

Katipan · 03-09-2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simplex3

You must be kidding. Either you don't know any divorced couples or your definition of "justifiable" needs work.

All the divorced couples I know either share custody or have custody arrangements.

Of the close male friends in my life, 2 are raising their daughters by themselves, and the other is raising 3 kids that aren't even his.

And justifiable would mean to me what it would mean to most women. Abuse. Court orders. I'm sure you can follow along.

Hammock Parties · 03-09-2006, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg in kc

The solution here is just for everyone to stop having sex.

Sadly, I'm on the front line of that movement.

*salutes*

Simplex3 · 03-09-2006, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katipan

I said it negatively because of his whine about high stress jobs.

We've established over and over that it's both parties fault. The premise of the thread however is men wanting more rights over it.

What we've established is that the responsibility for pregnancy is equal but after conception the woman gets to make all the life and death decisions while the man holds the financial responsibilities.

keg in kc · 03-09-2006, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkkcoh

Is that self-imposed or other?????

Yes.

03-09-2006, 08:24 AM
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $4630478	Male activists want say in unplanned pregnancy http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/03/08/fa....ap/index.html Male activists want say in unplanned pregnancy Lawsuit seeks right to decline financial responsibility for kids NEW YORK (AP) -- Contending that women have more options than they do in the event of an unintended pregnancy, men's rights activists are mounting a long shot legal campaign aimed at giving them the chance to opt out of financial responsibility for raising a child. The National Center for Men has prepared a lawsuit -- nicknamed Roe v. Wade for Men -- to be filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Michigan on behalf of a 25-year-old computer programmer ordered to pay child support for his ex-girlfriend's daughter. The suit addresses the issue of male reproductive rights, contending that lack of such rights violates the U.S. Constitution's equal protection clause. The gist of the argument: If a pregnant woman can choose among abortion, adoption or raising a child, a man involved in an unintended pregnancy should have the choice of declining the financial responsibilities of fatherhood. The activists involved hope to spark discussion even if they lose. "There's such a spectrum of choice that women have -- it's her body, her pregnancy and she has the ultimate right to make decisions," said Mel Feit, director of the men's center. "I'm trying to find a way for a man also to have some say over decisions that affect his life profoundly." Feit's organization has been trying since the early 1990s to pursue such a lawsuit, and finally found a suitable plaintiff in Matt Dubay of Saginaw, Michigan. Dubay says he has been ordered to pay $500 a month in child support for a girl born last year to his ex-girlfriend. He contends that the woman knew he didn't want to have a child with her and assured him repeatedly that -- because of a physical condition -- she could not get pregnant. Dubay is braced for the lawsuit to fail. "What I expect to hear [from the court] is that the way things are is not really fair, but that's the way it is," he said in a telephone interview. "Just to create awareness would be enough, to at least get a debate started." State courts have ruled in the past that any inequity experienced by men like Dubay is outweighed by society's interest in ensuring that children get financial support from two parents. Melanie Jacobs, a Michigan State University law professor, said the federal court might rule similarly in Dubay's case. "The courts are trying to say it may not be so fair that this gentleman has to support a child he didn't want, but it's less fair to say society has to pay the support," she said. Feit, however, says a fatherhood opt-out wouldn't necessarily impose higher costs on society or the mother. A woman who balked at abortion but felt she couldn't afford to raise a child could put the baby up for adoption, he said. 'This is so politically incorrect' Jennifer Brown of the women's rights advocacy group Legal Momentum objected to the men's center comparing Dubay's lawsuit to Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court ruling establishing a woman's right to have an abortion. "Roe is based on an extreme intrusion by the government -- literally to force a woman to continue a pregnancy she doesn't want," Brown said. "There's nothing equivalent for men. They have the same ability as women to use contraception, to get sterilized." Feit counters that the suit's reference to abortion rights is apt. "Roe says a woman can choose to have intimacy and still have control over subsequent consequences," he said. "No one has ever asked a federal court if that means men should have some similar say." "The problem is this is so politically incorrect," Feit added. "The public is still dealing with the pre-Roe ethic when it comes to men, that if a man fathers a child, he should accept responsibility." Feit doesn't advocate an unlimited fatherhood opt-out; he proposes a brief period in which a man, after learning of an unintended pregnancy, could decline parental responsibilities if the relationship was one in which neither partner had desired a child. "If the woman changes her mind and wants the child, she should be responsible," Feit said. "If she can't take care of the child, adoption is a good alternative." The president of the National Organization for Women, Kim Gandy, acknowledged that disputes over unintended pregnancies can be complex and bitter. "None of these are easy questions," said Gandy, a former prosecutor. "But most courts say it's not about what he did or didn't do or what she did or didn't do. It's about the rights of the child." Matt Dubay contends his ex-girlfriend assured him she was unable to get pregnant.
Posts: 278,131

03-09-2006, 02:38 PM	#123
Katipan MER Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Colorado Casino cash: $2720351	you first __________________ "Loving him is red."
Posts: 22,640

03-09-2006, 02:47 PM	#126
Katipan MER Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Colorado Casino cash: $2720351	I don't honestly know one woman who would unjustifiably deny visitation to a father. __________________ "Loving him is red."
Posts: 22,640

03-09-2006, 02:49 PM	#127
keg in kc oxymoron Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: OP/KC/Whatever Casino cash: $9556299	The solution here is just for everyone to stop having sex. Sadly, I'm on the front line of that movement.
Posts: 58,682

03-09-2006, 02:53 PM	#130
Katipan MER Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Colorado Casino cash: $2720351	I said it negatively because of his whine about high stress jobs. We've established over and over that it's both parties fault. The premise of the thread however is men wanting more rights over it. __________________ "Loving him is red."
Posts: 22,640