Official 2017 STL Cardinals Thread

[BigRedChief]

My as well get it started. Here's my "Matheny" lineup.....

Fowler CF
Diaz SS
Carpenter 1B
Piscotty RF
Grichuk LF
Molina C
Peralta 3B
Wong 2B
Pitcher

My "Matheny" Starting rotation

Martinez
Reyes
Wainwright
Lynn
Leake

[BigRedChief]

Morsi from mlb says this is on the table. What's a comparable offer from the Cardinals?

Giancarlo Stanton trade development: Source says #Marlins likely would accept offer of Panik, Beede and Shaw for Stanton alone -- if #SFGiants committed to paying at least $250 million of the $295 million left on Stanton’s contract. @MLB @MLBNetwork

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Morsi from mlb says this is on the table. What's a comparable offer from the Cardinals?

Giancarlo Stanton trade development: Source says #Marlins likely would accept offer of Panik, Beede and Shaw for Stanton alone -- if #SFGiants committed to paying at least $250 million of the $295 million left on Stanton’s contract. @MLB @MLBNetwork

Alcantara, Bader and Hudson would DESTROY that offer. If for no other reason than the Marlins don't need Panik at all; if they move Stanton they can/should keep Gordon.

But the Marlins could damn sure use a replacement OFer, a high ceiling power arm and a high floor arm with plenty of polish.

Which is why I'm absolutely certain that the Cardinals are more interested in APPEARING to want Stanton than they are actually acquiring him. If they offered that deal, it wouldn't be a fly on the ass of this system and they'd have their opportunity to talk to Stanton and try to sell him on the organization. Then if he says no, so be it. But Stanton is said to have warmed on the idea of STL and the Marlins have said they'd grant a discussion window. Yet here we sit and no conversations have taken place.

Why? Because the Cardinals aren't even remotely serious. They know the fans are tired of Mozeliak's 'dry powder' bullshit so they want to appear to have interest, but they don't want to pay what it costs for a great player.

The entire industry knew exactly what it would take to get Luis Robert in here - the Cardinals insisted they were interested and would push hard to get him. Shocker of shockers, he got exactly what most thought he would and the Cardinals ended up just short. Why? Because they knew how close they could get without winning. Mozeliak's gotten awfully good at appearing to want players that require risk and offering just enough to ensure that they don't have to actually take said risk.

This ****ing organization...

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Alcantara, Bader and Hudson would DESTROY that offer. If for no other reason than the Marlins don't need Panik at all; if they move Stanton they can/should keep Gordon.

But the Marlins could damn sure use a replacement OFer, a high ceiling power arm and a high floor arm with plenty of polish.

Which is why I'm absolutely certain that the Cardinals are more interested in APPEARING to want Stanton than they are actually acquiring him. If they offered that deal, it wouldn't be a fly on the ass of this system and they'd have their opportunity to talk to Stanton and try to sell him on the organization. Then if he says no, so be it. But Stanton is said to have warmed on the idea of STL and the Marlins have said they'd grant a discussion window. Yet here we sit and no conversations have taken place.

Why? Because the Cardinals aren't even remotely serious. They know the fans are tired of Mozeliak's 'dry powder' bullshit so they want to appear to have interest, but they don't want to pay what it costs for a great player.

The entire industry knew exactly what it would take to get Luis Robert in here - the Cardinals insisted they were interested and would push hard to get him. Shocker of shockers, he got exactly what most thought he would and the Cardinals ended up just short. Why? Because they knew how close they could get without winning. Mozeliak's gotten awfully good at appearing to want players that require risk and offering just enough to ensure that they don't have to actually take said risk.

This ****ing organization...

if Morsei info is true, then we should be able to beat that offer without Reyes and our top position players. l would definitely make that trade you mentioned above for 3 years of Stanton.

If he's as good at the end of those 3 years as he has been the last 3 years, he's going to opt out. Downside is if he drops off a cliff, we are out $175 million?

I was okay with the Cardinals payroll till this year. We stay in the top ten payroll teams list, we can compete. We will never be a top 5 payroll team but we can be a top 7-10 team. Whether they spend that money correctly is a different issue. The reason the players are getting these mega contracts are because baseball is flush with cash. The Cardinals start the new cable contract this year, its time to take a risk of having dead money on the books.

[The Franchise]

Dude has his #1 team as the Dodgers and we aren't going to make an offer. ****.

[raybec 4]

Originally Posted by Pestilence

Dude has his #1 team as the Dodgers and we aren't going to make an offer. ****.

Good the Doyers don't need more help.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Pestilence

Dude has his #1 team as the Dodgers and we aren't going to make an offer. ****.

Not Freidman's style.

It's a little strange to me that he'd want to go there, though. The Dodgers have built an identity around Kershaw, Bellinger and Seager.

I've never gotten the impression that Stanton was a gutless beta male like Heyward who just wants to fly under the radar and be part of an ensemble cast. I kinda felt like he enjoyed being the star of the show, he just wishes he had better supporting players.

In SF he'd be the top dog on a shitty team; the Giants are a year or 2 away from being the 2012 Phillies with an aging squad and no earthly idea how to get out of the hole. Their system is barren and if Stanton's there, they don't have the financial wherewithal to just spend to surround him.

In LAD he'd be a big name, sure, but I still don't think it would truly be his squad.

In St. Louis he'd be revered as a ****ing GOD. That town will swoon over the guy the first time he bounces one off the damn arch. And hell, if they'd just name me the GM, that team would win 95 games/season for the 3 seasons until his opt-out and then he can decide if he has enjoyed his stay long enough to stick around.

Alas, we're both ****ed. Your organization appears to want to get below the luxury tax before they get fisted by the inevitable Kershaw extension and my organization wants to win as many games as they can, so long as it's cheap. So he's going to the Giants for a bucket of balls and a case of big league chew.

Sorry man - I'd have done y'all a solid were it my circus...

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Not Freidman's style.

It's a little strange to me that he'd want to go there, though. The Dodgers have built an identity around Kershaw, Bellinger and Seager.

I've never gotten the impression that Stanton was a gutless beta male like Heyward who just wants to fly under the radar and be part of an ensemble cast. I kinda felt like he enjoyed being the star of the show, he just wishes he had better supporting players.

In SF he'd be the top dog on a shitty team; the Giants are a year or 2 away from being the 2012 Phillies with an aging squad and no earthly idea how to get out of the hole. Their system is barren and if Stanton's there, they don't have the financial wherewithal to just spend to surround him.

In LAD he'd be a big name, sure, but I still don't think it would truly be his squad.

In St. Louis he'd be revered as a ****ing GOD. That town will swoon over the guy the first time he bounces one off the damn arch. And hell, if they'd just name me the GM, that team would win 95 games/season for the 3 seasons until his opt-out and then he can decide if he has enjoyed his stay long enough to stick around.

Alas, we're both ****ed. Your organization appears to want to get below the luxury tax before they get fisted by the inevitable Kershaw extension and my organization wants to win as many games as they can, so long as it's cheap. So he's going to the Giants for a bucket of balls and a case of big league chew.

Sorry man - I'd have done y'all a solid were it my circus...

It's the thought that counts, man.

Now if only the Irish would pull their heads out of their asses. But that's for another thread.

[jd1020]

I wouldn't call the Giants offer a bucket of balls. Trading a GG second baseman with 3 more years of control and 2 fringe top 100 prospects in AAA. Still not what you would think a MVP would return but dumping his contract seems to be more important to the Marlins.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by jd1020

I wouldn't call the Giants offer a bucket of balls. Trading a GG second baseman with 3 more years of control and 2 fringe top 100 prospects in AAA. Still not what you would think a MVP would return but dumping his contract seems to be more important to the Marlins.

A 2 WAR 2b (gold glove in name only; he has limited range and there's pretty much nothing to support him as being even an above average defensive player; let alone a truly good one), a 23 yr old who was picking on guys in AA before he struck out 5 times as often as he walked in AAA and a 24 yr old who put up an ERA near 5 in the minors and projects as a #4 starter (maybe).

I didn't say it was a bucket of balls. I said it was a bucket of balls AND a case of big league chew. Don't sleep on the Chew, man.

That ain't much. At all. And if the Cardinals were even remotely interested in paying what it takes to compete, they'd wax that offer without batting an eye.

Fortunately for you, Bill DeWitt just likes to chill at his vacation homes and recall whistfully the days when the NL Central was infested with idiots and the big money teams in the NL couldn't get out of their own way. Now he has to actually take chances and hire people that are good at their jobs to win.

He seems disinclined to do so. Congrats on about 5 more consecutive division titles before maybe Flores puts enough cheap talent in the pool that the Cardinals can win 90 games on a bottom 20 salary again. Dollar Bill's really excited about 2024; he sees big things on the horizing for Ballpark Village...er...I mean, the St. Louis Cardinals.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by jd1020

I wouldn't call the Giants offer a bucket of balls. Trading a GG second baseman with 3 more years of control and 2 fringe top 100 prospects in AAA. Still not what you would think a MVP would return but dumping his contract seems to be more important to the Marlins.

taking on a $250 million debt no matter what even in a cash flush MLB team is a lot. You can buy some good players with that money.

[duncan_idaho]

I also don't think the Giants long term outlook is quite so dire. They have a lot of money coming off the books after this year and drop to $70 million in total commitments in 2019.

They could afford to spend to build around Stanton and Posey.

They also have premium picks in the upcoming draft and will infuse a bunch of talent in the farm system.

And on Stanton's end, because of his opt-out, he may be looking only three years down the road, anyway.

With health from Cueto and Bumgarner and more typical performances from them, as well as adding serious power to the middle of the lineup, they could be right back in the mix in 18 and 19.


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[DJ's left nut]

I've been waiting on the wheels to come of Cueto for awhile now. It's possible that last year was just a stumble, but as a small, slider heavy righthander who was ridden hard by Dusty in his younger years, he's had the look of a ticking timebomb to me for awhile now. I liked the Royals acquisition of him because he was pitching well and looked to be able to help that year.

I didn't think the Giants made a smart investment, though. Honestly, if I were gonna count on anyone in that rotation bouncing back next season, it would probably be Samardzija.

As for the picks - if Stanton's pondering that opt-out, those aren't going to help much in the 3 years Stanton is there. They won't even be selected until the latter part of year 1 and unless they're absolute superstars, you're unlikely to even see them as rookies before he's gone. Sitting at #2, they should have plenty of capital but this looks like a pitchers draft and man, you've gotta be one hell of a pitcher to make an impact with only a year or two in the minors under your belt.

It happens, but it's few and far between. Meanwhile, Posey and Crawford are only getting older. Granted, the Cards don't have much in the way of young impact players either, but that's why they'd need to be more creative than they appear willing to be if they're going to convince Stanton to come to STL.

As for salary, they're already at $160 committed for '18. Pence, Moore and Span drop off for '19 but they don't really have anyone in the system they can count on to replace them - they're going to need to go to the market again in '19. I don't see them being able to spend their way back to relevance.

That's not to say that I don't think Stanton can make them relevant - he can. But I think Stanton (and a return to form from Madbum) makes them a .500 team. I think Stanton gets the Cardinals to around 88-90 and the Cardinals have more internal options that will allow them to make cost-effective trades and/or replacements to further supplement that roster, not to mention substantially more financial flexibility this year before their major cable deal boosts revenue.

The Cardinals aren't the Dodgers or Astros, to be sure. But I'd say their system and their revenue increase puts them in a position to be easily among the 10 best situated teams going forward (provided their management grows a pair). Meanwhile I'd say the Giants are among the 10 worst.

Their biggest advantage, however, is that people will want to play for their manager because he knows his ass from a hole in the ground. I think Matheny's a problem here that few are alluding to. I think this has less to do with where he sleeps for 1/2 the year than it does the guy he'd have to answer to on a daily basis.

[jd1020]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

taking on a $250 million debt no matter what even in a cash flush MLB team is a lot. You can buy some good players with that money.

Sure you can buy a lot of players with the money but at the GM meetings GM's were saying that was probably market value for Stanton and in a year when Harper and shit hit the market that $250M is going to look like chump change.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by jd1020

Sure you can buy a lot of players with the money but at the GM meetings GM's were saying that was probably market value for Stanton and in a year when Harper and shit hit the market that $250M is going to look like chump change.

Right?

Machado and Harper are about to break the damn market and Mo is acting like he needs to flip over couch cushions to come up with an eminently reasonable amount of money for a dude that damn near hit 60 HRs this year and would change the entire feel of a ballclub.

As a Cubs fan, wouldn't you be at least a little concerned if the Cardinals got Stanton for a couple of their more expendable pitching prospects and his contract?

That should really say all that needs be said. Take on the !@#$ing deal, Mozeliak. He's going to opt out anyway.

[jd1020]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

As a Cubs fan, wouldn't you be at least a little concerned if the Cardinals got Stanton for a couple of their more expendable pitching prospects and his contract?

Maybe a little, but that all depends on what the Cubs make happen this offseason. They have a lot of pitching to find and still need to figure out some way to manufacture runs with a proper lead off hitter and the answer isn't ****ing Schwarber.

Sources have been saying the Cubs were ready to deal from their MLB depth by potentially offering a Baez, Russell, Schwarber, or Happ, but now sources are saying that they may not. So who the **** knows any more.