These "parents" should face criminal charges - Page 15

**DaneMcCloud** · 03-27-2008, 07:12 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/...s_death_prayer

Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies

WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

Brock · 03-28-2008, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hydrae

I do want to be clear, this is not something I would allow to happen to my children and I do not even agree with their stance. However I also do not think that they should be prosecuted for their belief system which is what the OP was advocating.

Their "belief system" caused harm to an innocent person. They sure as hell should be prosecuted for child abuse.

BucEyedPea · 03-28-2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock

Their "belief system" caused harm to an innocent person. They sure as hell should be prosecuted for child abuse.

What about those who belief system support abortion, particularly in the last trimester or even partial birth. Wonder how many folks in this thread who would condemn these people's beliefs are in that camp?

BucEyedPea · 03-28-2008, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sure-Oz

But but common sense wasn't part of those people's religions....

In your opinion.

Jenson71 · 03-28-2008, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

And where do we draw the line?

When an eleven year old girl is now dead because the parents refused to get her medical help, some line has been crossed.

BucEyedPea · 03-28-2008, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla

That isn't true. If your religion tells you to molest your kids, it will still be against the law. Similarly, even if your religion requires you to sacrifice one of your family members, you'll probably still go to jail. I'm not sure you've thought this through.

Those are acts of commission on another. One is a an assault defined under law. The other is an act of physical aggression. This is an act of omission or not doing something.

BucEyedPea · 03-28-2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenson71

When an eleven year old girl is now dead because the parents refused to get her medical help, some line has been crossed.

Where that line crosses is an opinion. It may be an agreed upon opinion by the group but it is still an opinion.

Hydrae · 03-28-2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenson71

When an eleven year old girl is now dead because the parents refused to get her medical help, some line has been crossed.

So you do not believe that God could have saved her and cured her if it was his will?

a1na2 · 03-28-2008, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenson71

When an eleven year old girl is now dead because the parents refused to get her medical help, some line has been crossed.

Again, that is your opinion based on your emotions.

Wait and see if the courts even touch this.

Is it bad that the girl died? Yes it is.

Were the parents criminally negligent? No, I don't think so.

a1na2 · 03-28-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hydrae

So you do not believe that God could have saved her and cured her if it was his will?

Jenson cannot answer that right now. His emotions are overriding his common sense and even his Catholic faith.

What gets me about his opinion is that he can condone partial birth abortions but crys out for the blood of the parents here.

Jenson71 · 03-28-2008, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a1na2

This thread is more about trying to put criminal charges against a family that broke no written law regarding their child. I'm guessing that you have totally overlooked the premise of the thread.

Care to try again?

You don't think endangering the life of a child is against the law?

Sure-Oz · 03-28-2008, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

In your opinion.

So if your religion called upon not seeing dr's etc, you would go ahead and tell little billy that god wants him to die cause there is nothing else that can be done and thats his will? In reality there was...

Jenson71 · 03-28-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hydrae

So you do not believe that God could have saved her and cured her if it was his will?

That isn't entirely relevant to this story, but like other issues in the thread, I will answer this.

My short answer is that, I believe there is nothing God cannot do.

Jenson71 · 03-28-2008, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a1na2

What gets me about his opinion is that he can condone partial birth abortions but crys out for the blood of the parents here.

What makes you say that?

Brock · 03-28-2008, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hydrae

So you do not believe that God could have saved her and cured her if it was his will?

He gave them everything they needed to cure their daughter. Waiting for god to do things that you can do for yourself is for fools.

BucEyedPea · 03-28-2008, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sure-Oz

So if your religion called upon not seeing dr's etc, you would go ahead and tell little billy that god wants him to die cause there is nothing else that can be done and thats his will? In reality there was...

Well you're coloring things by saying telling little billy god wants him to die. That's not what these types do, they believe god will intervene to heal.I guess they also believe it's god's will too if they die. But religious folks believe life on earth is temporary and eternal life exists afterwards. Which is why this is a religious pov. I wouldn't do it.

The more I think about this though, it is really more a state issue. But I believe most states also have freedom of religion in their constitutions.

03-27-2008, 07:12 PM
DaneMcCloud Supporter Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Hollywood, CA Casino cash: $10053648	These "parents" should face criminal charges http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/...s_death_prayer Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor. An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said. She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney. The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors. She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently. "We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering." Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said. The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body. Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl. "My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith." The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent. "Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now." The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital. But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead. She is survived by her parents and three older siblings. "We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time." The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway. Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."
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