Life What's fair? (Water Damage Question) - Page 2

**Rain Man** · 07:18 PM

Thank you in advance for your wise counsel (bowing with hands in prayer position).

What's the fair thing in this situation?

We're on the fifth floor of an office building, and have a kitchen in our space. The sink is clogged for some reason, and the maintenance guy pulled the little u-shaped pipe off and put a bucket under the drain. Supposedly they're going to do the anti-clog thing on Monday. I think this happened Thursday morning, but don't recall.

We put a note on the sink not to use it.

Now, the dishwasher is next to the sink, and one of our administrative people started it up. I don't think she knew that the dishwasher drained into into the same drain, so when the dishwasher drained it dumped the water out under the sink, which then ran around on the floor and made its way down to the fourth floor. At that point it set off a fire alarm, so the fire department came out. I don't know the extent of the damage on the fourth floor. I would suspect it's not major considering this is your typical office building with cheapish walls and ceiling tiles, but I don't know if there's also any kind of fire department bill for a false alarm.

The maintenance guy just came up and told me that the landlord is planning to hold us responsible for water damage.

I want to be fair about this, but don't want to pay a bunch of money if it's a landlord deal. What thinks you?

**Bugeater** · 06-24-2011, 08:55 PM

I blame maintenance, I always try to get drains cleared the same day, or the next day at the VERY latest. If they knew about the clog on Thursday morning there's no ****ing way in hell they should've put off clearing the drain until Monday.

**Rain Man** · 06-24-2011, 09:05 PM

We've got decent insurance, I think, but I sure hope it's not at that level.

We're on the 5th floor, and the 6th floor is a health club. We frequently have minor leaks from them and have had significant leaks a couple of times. It's never really been bad damage, just some ceiling tiles and maybe some paint in the worst cases. They're saying it damaged one of the fire alarms, and I have no idea what that costs.

**Bugeater** · 06-24-2011, 09:10 PM

The maintenance guy also should've known to disable the dishwasher...as far as I'm concerned, once they knew about the problem, anything further that happens is on them.

06-24-2011, 09:46 PM

It's absolutely a maintenance problem. There's absolutely no excuse for leaving a drain in that condition. There's no excuse for not disabling the dishwasher if he's going to leave a commercial office space drain unhook 4 business days. If the maintenance guy is on the landlord's payroll, I would fight it. If he's contracted to the landlord then his own liability insurance should cover the accident. This is 100% negligence as far as I'm concerned. You can't leave drains open without a disaster prevention strategy. I'd stop paying rent until the landlord pulls his head out. You're looking for new space anyway.

Simplex3 · 06-24-2011, 10:54 PM

I'm with Phil. No way in hell they should have left the drain trap off for more than a few minutes. What's the down side to cleaning out the current one, putting it back on, then replacing it a week later when you get the new super-part?

Additionally you said that your and your staff put the note on the sink, not the plumber. Screw them.

stlchiefs · 06-24-2011, 11:01 PM

Maintenance all the way. Who pulls a trap and doesn't replace it for days??? If it's a maintenance guy that works for the LL or was hired by the LL you have a better argument as well. Worst case scenario you turn it into insurance and they try to subro against the maintenance company.

**alnorth** · 06-24-2011, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stlchiefs

Worst case scenario you turn it into insurance and they try to subro against the maintenance company.

This actually may be the best choice. Ask your insurance guy if you'll be raped for turning in a claim. If not, then great, your insurance company wont have any qualms about fighting the claim or subrogating on your behalf if they think its worth it. They have no relationship with your landlord, they dont have to worry about keeping him happy, so they wont care if your landlord is pissed.

If the damage is financially insignificant, then just pay it. If the damage is big, your insurance wont hammer you too bad for the claim, that type of claim is covered if its your fault, and the insurance company is taking a "oh hell no" attitude, then fine. Its not your fault the landlord isn't getting paid, you turned in the claim, if the insurer seems to be unconvinced that its your fault, then tell them to yell at the insurance company. Either way, your landlord has no reason to be pissed at you.

**Bugeater** · 06-24-2011, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simplex3

I'm with Phil. No way in hell they should have left the drain trap off for more than a few minutes. What's the down side to cleaning out the current one, putting it back on, then replacing it a week later when you get the new super-part?

Additionally you said that your and your staff put the note on the sink, not the plumber. Screw them.

There is no "super part", it's a drain trap, and any maintenance shop should have at least a half-dozen of them on hand. If the clog was simply in the trap (which it rarely is) then there's absolutely no freaking excuse whatsoever for not having the problem completely resolved within an hour of it being reported and the maintenance guy is a drooling reerun and should be fired on the spot.

DanT · 06-24-2011, 11:26 PM

I don't know what the law says, but in my opinion if the plumber didn't make it clear that you are not to use the dishwasher, then it's his fault. If he did make it clear but he failed to apologize for not being sufficiently competent to turn the water off to all of the fixtures that would be draining into the sink, then he's only 75% to blame. If he did apologize for being so incompetent, then I would put the plumber at only 50% blame.

blaise · 06-24-2011, 11:28 PM

I agree, if the LL hires the maintenance guy it's on them. The plumbing, I assume, is owned by the landlord. You don't own the pipes. You probably aren't allowed to work on the plumbing. The dishwasher didn't cause the problem, the faulty plumbing did.

**Shaid** · 06-24-2011, 11:39 PM

You're screwed but I do like to run through sprinklers.

blaise · 06-24-2011, 11:45 PM

Honestly, I wouldn't pay a dime and I would make him sue me for it. And I wouldn't offer him any money towards it, either. Unless he gets a court judgement against you, how would it even adversely affect you, monetarily?

**alnorth** · 06-24-2011, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blaise

how would it even adversely affect you, monetarily?

The problem here is this isn't some random Joe off the street who may or may not have been wronged. Its the landlord of the property where his business is located. Thats not a guy you usually wanna piss off by taking a stand for something marginal. If its big money, sure, go do what you gotta do, but this might be one of those irritating cases where its not worth it to fight.

**Bugeater** · 06-24-2011, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alnorth

The problem here is this isn't some random Joe off the street who may or may not have been wronged. Its the landlord of the property where his business is located. Thats not a guy you usually wanna piss off by taking a stand for something marginal. If its big money, sure, go do what you gotta do, but this might be one of those irritating cases where its not worth it to fight.

What's the landlord going to do to him? Granted, I have no idea how commercial real estate works, but a residential tenant can piss you off all he wants and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. If you retaliate in any way you're at risk of having a fair housing lawsuit slapped on your ass.

**alnorth** · 06-25-2011, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater

What's the landlord going to do to him? Granted, I have no idea how commercial real estate works, but a residential tenant can piss you off all he wants and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. If you retaliate in any way you're at risk of having a fair housing lawsuit slapped on your ass.

Well yeah, his landlord probably wont do something that can later be proven in a courtroom to be illegal.

View Poll Results: Who pays for any damage or charges in a fair world?
Rain Man, Inc. pays all damage. Bad dishwasher move.	14	26.92%
Rain Man, Inc. pays most damage. Some shared blame.	8	15.38%
Split it down the middle.	3	5.77%
Landlord pays most damage. Some shared blame.	5	9.62%
Landlord pays all damage. Should've fixed the damn pipe.	17	32.69%
I like running in sprinklers.	5	9.62%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

06-24-2011, 07:09 PM
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $3338491 VARSITY	What's fair? (Water Damage Question) Thank you in advance for your wise counsel (bowing with hands in prayer position). What's the fair thing in this situation? We're on the fifth floor of an office building, and have a kitchen in our space. The sink is clogged for some reason, and the maintenance guy pulled the little u-shaped pipe off and put a bucket under the drain. Supposedly they're going to do the anti-clog thing on Monday. I think this happened Thursday morning, but don't recall. We put a note on the sink not to use it. Now, the dishwasher is next to the sink, and one of our administrative people started it up. I don't think she knew that the dishwasher drained into into the same drain, so when the dishwasher drained it dumped the water out under the sink, which then ran around on the floor and made its way down to the fourth floor. At that point it set off a fire alarm, so the fire department came out. I don't know the extent of the damage on the fourth floor. I would suspect it's not major considering this is your typical office building with cheapish walls and ceiling tiles, but I don't know if there's also any kind of fire department bill for a false alarm. The maintenance guy just came up and told me that the landlord is planning to hold us responsible for water damage. I want to be fair about this, but don't want to pay a bunch of money if it's a landlord deal. What thinks you? Last edited by Rain Man; 06-24-2011 at 07:18 PM..
Posts: 141,343

06-24-2011, 08:55 PM	#16
Bugeater The Maintenance Guy Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Renovated Bugeater Estate Casino cash: $6252680	I blame maintenance, I always try to get drains cleared the same day, or the next day at the VERY latest. If they knew about the clog on Thursday morning there's no ****ing way in hell they should've put off clearing the drain until Monday.
Posts: 70,443

06-24-2011, 09:05 PM	#17
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $3338491 VARSITY	We've got decent insurance, I think, but I sure hope it's not at that level. We're on the 5th floor, and the 6th floor is a health club. We frequently have minor leaks from them and have had significant leaks a couple of times. It's never really been bad damage, just some ceiling tiles and maybe some paint in the worst cases. They're saying it damaged one of the fire alarms, and I have no idea what that costs. __________________ I'm putting random letters here as a celebration of free speech: xigrakgrah misorojeq rkemeseit.
Posts: 141,343

06-24-2011, 09:10 PM	#18
Bugeater The Maintenance Guy Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Renovated Bugeater Estate Casino cash: $6252680	The maintenance guy also should've known to disable the dishwasher...as far as I'm concerned, once they knew about the problem, anything further that happens is on them.
Posts: 70,443

06-24-2011, 09:46 PM	#19
Phobia Guest Casino cash: $	It's absolutely a maintenance problem. There's absolutely no excuse for leaving a drain in that condition. There's no excuse for not disabling the dishwasher if he's going to leave a commercial office space drain unhook 4 business days. If the maintenance guy is on the landlord's payroll, I would fight it. If he's contracted to the landlord then his own liability insurance should cover the accident. This is 100% negligence as far as I'm concerned. You can't leave drains open without a disaster prevention strategy. I'd stop paying rent until the landlord pulls his head out. You're looking for new space anyway.
Posts: n/a

06-24-2011, 10:54 PM	#20
Simplex3 MVP Join Date: Sep 2003 Casino cash: $10004900	I'm with Phil. No way in hell they should have left the drain trap off for more than a few minutes. What's the down side to cleaning out the current one, putting it back on, then replacing it a week later when you get the new super-part? Additionally you said that your and your staff put the note on the sink, not the plumber. Screw them.
Posts: 28,527

06-24-2011, 11:01 PM	#21
stlchiefs Veteran Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: St. Loser, MO Casino cash: $10005674	Maintenance all the way. Who pulls a trap and doesn't replace it for days??? If it's a maintenance guy that works for the LL or was hired by the LL you have a better argument as well. Worst case scenario you turn it into insurance and they try to subro against the maintenance company.
Posts: 4,160

06-24-2011, 11:26 PM	#24
DanT Veteran Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Davis, CA Casino cash: $4521711	I don't know what the law says, but in my opinion if the plumber didn't make it clear that you are not to use the dishwasher, then it's his fault. If he did make it clear but he failed to apologize for not being sufficiently competent to turn the water off to all of the fixtures that would be draining into the sink, then he's only 75% to blame. If he did apologize for being so incompetent, then I would put the plumber at only 50% blame.
Posts: 4,225

06-24-2011, 11:28 PM	#25
blaise In Search of a Life Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Plano, TX Casino cash: $9999900	I agree, if the LL hires the maintenance guy it's on them. The plumbing, I assume, is owned by the landlord. You don't own the pipes. You probably aren't allowed to work on the plumbing. The dishwasher didn't cause the problem, the faulty plumbing did.
Posts: 22,188

06-24-2011, 11:39 PM	#26
Shaid Supporter Join Date: Nov 2006 Casino cash: $3115783	You're screwed but I do like to run through sprinklers. __________________
Posts: 5,689

06-24-2011, 11:45 PM	#27
blaise In Search of a Life Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Plano, TX Casino cash: $9999900	Honestly, I wouldn't pay a dime and I would make him sue me for it. And I wouldn't offer him any money towards it, either. Unless he gets a court judgement against you, how would it even adversely affect you, monetarily?
Posts: 22,188