Would you consider the offseason FA period a success for the Chiefs?

[Mr_Tomahawk]

With the additions of Routt, Hillis, Boss, and now Winston; do you consider this a successful offseason thus far?


If no...who else would we need to sign (realistically) in order for you to consider it a success?

[L.A. Chieffan]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Carr is better. Don't be a Homer.

How? Show me. Dont be a homer.

[Deberg_1990]

Originally Posted by milkman

Bottom line here.

The Chiefs with Matt Cassel, and without Jamaal Charles, have avreraged 13 points a game.

The Chiefs with Kyle Ortan averaged 13 points a game.

Chiefs fans are so desperate for anything "Not Cassel"they are willing to be sold a different flavor of the same sh*tty recipe.

[Saul Good]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Let's face it, the good additions we made were for players you can find in the 2nd or 3rd round of the draft.

That's true. Instead of being forced to spend our 2nd and 3rd (and possibly 1st in Winston's case) picks on them, we got them for nothing but money...Clark's money...and we are still in great shape wrt the salary cap.

If Clark had somehow purchased a couple of second round picks just for cash, you would be fired up about what a shrewd move he made. That's exactly what he did, and he hit on the picks to boot.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by L.A.Chieffan

How? Show me. Dont be a homer.

At this point in time, I would agree that Carr is better, and had he stayed in KC under the tutelage of Emmit Thomas, he still had potential to continue to improve.

However, I don't think the droppoff from Carr to Routt is significant, and under the tutelage of Thomas, his first really good coach, he also has the chance to improve.

I have suppported Carr from his first day as a Chief, and no one has been more of a fan.

The reality is, though, that the contract he signed with Dallas was just not practical in KC, and he isn't 4 mil better than Routt.

[L.A. Chieffan]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Carr is better. Don't be a Homer.

Here, let me help you out. Football Outsiders CB charting for 2011 up through week 13:


Top 12 CB in Success Rate, 2011 (through Week 13)
Player Team Passes Suc% Yd/Pass Avg Dist YAC
D.Revis NYJ 30 73% 3.0 17.1 2.2
J.Greer NO 63 71% 5.6 11.2 7.1
I.Taylor PIT 72 70% 4.9 13.7 2.6
R.Sherman SEA 49 69% 6.1 13.4 3.0
A.Samuel PHI 55 67% 4.5 14.8 2.2
S.Routt OAK 58 67% 4.8 10.9 2.7
D.Patterson CLE 34 67% 5.9 9.3 4.7
J.Wilson WAS 53 66% 5.9 12.5 3.3
C.Finnegan TEN 40 65% 4.0 7.2 2.9
R.Mathis JAC 34 65% 9.1 13.3 5.9
B.Grimes ATL 44 64% 6.5 14.8 5.2
C.Gamble CAR 35 63% 6.8 11.7 3.1

Essentially, Routt is the 6th best CB in the league and that's while covering the opposing teams #1. Notice who's NOT on the list?

Also interestingly the other guy whos on the list Finnegan just signed for $10 mil so we got a better CB for cheaper there as well.

Check out what PFF says about the Carr signing:

"Brandon Carr to DAL: Carr is a good cornerback, but the Cowboys have spent an awful lot of money on potential as opposed to production. He is an upgrade for their secondary, but one that may struggle to live up to the price tag."

Now again, tell me why Carr is SO MUCH BETTER than Routt?

[Saul Good]

Originally Posted by milkman

The reality is, though, that the contract he signed with Dallas was just not practical in KC, and he isn't 4 mil better than Routt.

The difference in salary between Carr and Routt was basically Winston.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Saul Good

That's true. Instead of being forced to spend our 2nd and 3rd (and possibly 1st in Winston's case) picks on them, we got them for nothing but money...Clark's money...and we are still in great shape wrt the salary cap.

If Clark had somehow purchased a couple of second round picks just for cash, you would be fired up about what a shrewd move he made. That's exactly what he did, and he hit on the picks to boot.

Don't get me wrong. I love the moves.

But this front office has yet to prove they can make a good move at a core position. They continue to plug away at these support positions and they've done a great job at providing a supporting cast. But they are supports.

We can't stand here and applaud success at making support moves. We've been doing that for 4 years. We have to hit on a core position for us to consider this offseason a success.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Don't get me wrong. I love the moves.

But this front office has yet to prove they can make a good move at a core position. They continue to plug away at these support positions and they've done a great job at providing a supporting cast. But they are supports.

We can't stand here and applaud success at making support moves. We've been doing that for 4 years. We have to hit on a core position for us to consider this offseason a success.

There's your problem right there.

The Chiefs need to be drafting core positions, not trying to find those players in free agency.

Free agency should be used in exactly the manner in which the Chiefs have used it this offseason.

[007]

Originally Posted by milkman

There's your problem right there.

The Chiefs need to be drafting core positions, not trying to find those players in free agency.

Free agency should be used in exactly the manner in which the Chiefs have used it this offseason.

agreed. But we know the Chiefs won't draft a QB to build on. They will draft another ****ing project.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by Guru

agreed. But we know the Chiefs won't draft a QB to build on. They will draft another ****ing project.

And I'm not arguing that.

This poll asks specifically about this free agency period.

I am answering based solely on that.

[007]

Originally Posted by milkman

And I'm not arguing that.

This poll asks specifically about this free agency period.

I am answering based solely on that.

MM I'm not arguing with you. Just pointing out the Chiefs MO.

Your point is completely valid and I agree with it. Just saying the Chiefs have given us ZERO reason to think they will do it.

[L.A. Chieffan]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Carr is younger and better than routt. You are naive if you think otherwise.

...waiting...

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by milkman

There's your problem right there.

The Chiefs need to be drafting core positions, not trying to find those players in free agency.

Free agency should be used in exactly the manner in which the Chiefs have used it this offseason.

Well, you know I agree with you that great teams are built through the draft. But it's different when your team ignores those positions in both the draft and free agency for 3 years. Those core positions take 2-3 years to develop. So by the time those guys develop, we're in year 6 of the Pioli era. If we had been filling our roster with some nice potential guys at those positions for 3 years, I'd feel differently.

That's why I'm harping on the Orton over Cassel thing. I know Orton isn't the answer. But when your front office completely ignores the QB position for 3 years (except for one guy who is clearly not the answer), then you have to use free agency to bring in a stopgap. Those stopgaps don't kill your cap, but they at least give you some reasonable chance at winning and it allows you to be more selective about young QBs as well as give them time to develop and grow. Orton is significantly better than Cassel. He allows your team to start running an offense you believe you can run for 5 years (with the hope that in 1-2 years, you have a new QB running that same system). Cassel doesn't do that. And by the way, whereas Cassel makes you complete non-contenders, at least Orton makes you a longshot.

So yeah, downgrading at CB, downgrading at QB, and making less than optimal decisions at coach... those balance out the good moves we made at support positions. We can't call this offseason anything close to success if we don't make any moves, whether free agency or the draft, to address some unbelievably critical core positional needs.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Well, you know I agree with you that great teams are built through the draft. But it's different when your team ignores those positions in both the draft and free agency for 3 years. Those core positions take 2-3 years to develop. So by the time those guys develop, we're in year 6 of the Pioli era. If we had been filling our roster with some nice potential guys at those positions for 3 years, I'd feel differently.

That's why I'm harping on the Orton over Cassel thing. I know Orton isn't the answer. But when your front office completely ignores the QB position for 3 years (except for one guy who is clearly not the answer), then you have to use free agency to bring in a stopgap. Those stopgaps don't kill your cap, but they at least give you some reasonable chance at winning and it allows you to be more selective about young QBs as well as give them time to develop and grow. Orton is significantly better than Cassel. He allows your team to start running an offense you believe you can run for 5 years (with the hope that in 1-2 years, you have a new QB running that same system). Cassel doesn't do that. And by the way, whereas Cassel makes you complete non-contenders, at least Orton makes you a longshot.

So yeah, downgrading at CB, downgrading at QB, and making less than optimal decisions at coach... those balance out the good moves we made at support positions. We can't call this offseason anything close to success if we don't make any moves, whether free agency or the draft, to address some unbelievably critical core positional needs.

You still fail to understand the only thing that matters in this discussion.

The question is, "Would you consider the offseason FA period a success for the Chiefs?".

It doesn't ask how this FA period is affected by any other period or decision of Pioli's that is not a part of this FA period.

In and of itself, this FA period, standing apart from every other issue, is a success.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by L.A.Chieffan

Here, let me help you out. Football Outsiders CB charting for 2011 up through week 13:


Top 12 CB in Success Rate, 2011 (through Week 13)
Player Team Passes Suc% Yd/Pass Avg Dist YAC
D.Revis NYJ 30 73% 3.0 17.1 2.2
J.Greer NO 63 71% 5.6 11.2 7.1
I.Taylor PIT 72 70% 4.9 13.7 2.6
R.Sherman SEA 49 69% 6.1 13.4 3.0
A.Samuel PHI 55 67% 4.5 14.8 2.2
S.Routt OAK 58 67% 4.8 10.9 2.7
D.Patterson CLE 34 67% 5.9 9.3 4.7
J.Wilson WAS 53 66% 5.9 12.5 3.3
C.Finnegan TEN 40 65% 4.0 7.2 2.9
R.Mathis JAC 34 65% 9.1 13.3 5.9
B.Grimes ATL 44 64% 6.5 14.8 5.2
C.Gamble CAR 35 63% 6.8 11.7 3.1

Essentially, Routt is the 6th best CB in the league and that's while covering the opposing teams #1. Notice who's NOT on the list?

Also interestingly the other guy whos on the list Finnegan just signed for $10 mil so we got a better CB for cheaper there as well.

Check out what PFF says about the Carr signing:

"Brandon Carr to DAL: Carr is a good cornerback, but the Cowboys have spent an awful lot of money on potential as opposed to production. He is an upgrade for their secondary, but one that may struggle to live up to the price tag."

Now again, tell me why Carr is SO MUCH BETTER than Routt?

Routt is not the NFL's 6th best CB. You can't look at statistics and even begin to suggest these are parallel situations. Brandon Carr did in fact grade in the top 10 in 2010, and that's despite the fact that the Chiefs had a horrendous pass rush which leaves your corners on your man for longer and that allows your QB to patiently step into throws.

There's plenty of reasons why statistically Carr rates as worse. The Chiefs had a horrendous pass rush for most of this season. The pass rush didn't step up until Houston started to emerge later in the season. The Chiefs had horrendous safety help all of this season. For most of the season, especially during the Palko era, the Chiefs' defense was on the field for entirely too long. That drains the hell out of your defense. That tires out Carr. More importantly, it tires out your pass rushers, which again goes back to the problem of Carr having to cover for longer.

Carr is a better player and his upside makes him even better. In 2012, getting Berry back and having Houston all year long as well as getting great coaching, he'd only get much better.