Royals (New) 2013 Kansas City Royals Repository - Page 58

duncan_idaho · 08-15-2013, 08:13 AM

New thread, this time with more burst.

Proposed 2013 Slogan: Tigers: They're what's for dinner
Actual 2013 Slogan: Come to Play
A better, more accurate, or alternative slogan: All in, no panic, we promise.

Dayton Moore has pushed all his chips in and is riding on King/Jack suited, hoping it comes together, he gets some good luck, and he hits the nuts by the river card. There's potential, oh yes, there's potential. There's also risk.

At the midway point, Dayton is left counting on the river card. The flop and turn didn't help him, and he's looking at the Tigers holding a pair of Queens and the Indians holding a pair of 9s. His 2013 plan hasn't failed - yet - but the odds are not in his favor.

Burning questions updates below.

Burning Questions for 2013:

1) Will the improve rotation be improved enough? Does James Shields pitch like a fringe No. 1 away from Tampa Bay? Does Ervin Santana pitch to his highest upside in his walk year? Can Jeremy Guthrie build on his strong performance as a Royal in 2012? Can Wade Davis bring his new mentality- and velocity - back to the rotation?

Midseason check-in: Yes, the rotation is certainly improved enough. Shields has pitched like a fringe No. 1 and Santana is having his best season. Guthrie has horrible peripherals but has continued to perform well at his home park and eat innings on the road. Davis brought neither his kick-ass mentality or improved velocity back to the rotation and is in Luke Hochevar/Hiram Davies territory.

2) When will Luke Hochevar be shown the door?
Midseason check-in: It appears, never, at this point. Hochevar has been solid in non-leverage situations, though pretty much every time he has been used with men on base in an inning, it has been a disaster.

3) Does Hosmer bounce back?
Midseason check-in: It took some time, but Hosmer's performance from June 1 on is probably the most encouraging thing about the 2013 season so far.
4) Can Moustakas hit for a whole season like he did in the first half of 2012?
Midseason check-in: Nope. Moustakas was god-awful, then great for about 3 weeks, then god-awful again. He has been better since he started working with Brett and Grafol but still has a long way to go.
5) Who regresses?
Midseason check-in: Welp, Alicides Escobar is not a surprising name here (though Yost's stubborn insistence on hitting him second is ridiculous). Billy Butler is a surprise. He isn't having a terrible year - still contributing a lot to the offense - but he's not hitting for the average or power he has displayed over the past several years.
6) Who plays 2B?
Midseason check-in: A whole bunch of people, and not that great. Gio is at least getting a shot, though he once again is not doing much with it.
7) Can Jeff Francoeur be at least replacement level, rather than epic horrible level?
Midseason check-in: Hahahahahahahahahahaha
8) Will Dayton Moore survive to see 2014?
Midseason check-in: Outlook uncertain. Probably still around, unless the team completely tanks in the second half and he does something foolish. My guess - he sacrifices Ned Yost this offseason and gets one more shot with a new manager in 2014.
9) Will Danny Duffy come back healthy? And if he does, is he the same, better or worse?
Midseason check-in: Yes. Velocity looks the same, and it looks likely he is the same guy as before.
10) And the big one: Has KC added enough to run down the big-money Detroit Tigers?
Midseason check-in: Doesn't look like it, does it?

siberian khatru · 09-15-2013, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nzoner

"So in September, in a pennant race, with ELEVEN relievers on hand, in a tie game, in the 8th inning, with his #4 starter (at best) having thrown 102 pitches, and having allowed 12 hits already, Yost sent him back to the mound. Even though he had only asked his starting pitcher to work that hard twice all season, and one of those two decisions proved disastrous.

And that's the bottom line: You don't NEED to push Guthrie, to save the bullpen. No reason WHATSOEVER. It's not like Guthrie was pitching a 2-hit shutout. He had a dozen options at his disposal, and he ignored every one of them, thinking Guthrie thru 8 was his best option ... or really, according to his presser, he wanted to keep Guthrie in the game to get him a win, which is absolutely inexcusable. INEXCUSABLE.

Maybe he brings in Crow or Collins or whoever and HE gives up a HR. That would suck. But it's the thinking behind the move, the logic of keeping Guthrie in, that is indefensible and bodes very poorly for down the road.

**alnorth** · 09-15-2013, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raiderhader

So you would disagree that Francona is the reason the Indians have been successful all season?

yep, I would disagree with that.

The team is what they are, regardless of the manager, and simple dumb luck also plays into it. Sometimes teams win more than they should for no particular reason, and the manager should get almost zero credit for that.

Regarding Guthrie, if he would have gotten the three outs without a HR, no one would have remembered it. Ned may have even been seen as a genious for sticking with "the hot hand". People only remember the negative, never remember the positive, they give way too much blame/credit to the manager and way too little blame/credit to the only guy who actually should be held accountable: the GM.

Getting this crazy-angry at Ned for a few selected games and decisions strikes me as primitive mobs wanting to burn a witch.

The players, and only the players, are going to determine a team's season, along with a large amount of blind dumb luck, presuming the manager doesn't sabotage them with pitching injuries or small-ball. If the players fail, then blame the guy who brought those players together: Dayton Moore.

If the Royals do not make the playoffs in 2014, I will not care about Ned at all. I'll instead be calling for DM to be fired.

siberian khatru · 09-15-2013, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alnorth

yep, I would disagree with that.

The team is what they are, regardless of the manager, and simple dumb luck also plays into it. Sometimes teams win more than they should for no particular reason, and the manager should get almost zero credit for that.

Regarding Guthrie, if he would have gotten the three outs without a HR, no one would have remembered it. Ned may have even been seen as a genious for sticking with "the hot hand". People only remember the negative, never remember the positive, they give way too much blame/credit to the manager and way too little blame/credit to the only guy who actually should be held accountable: the GM.

Getting this crazy-angry at Ned for a few selected games and decisions strikes me as primitive mobs wanting to burn a witch.

The players, and only the players, are going to determine a team's season, along with a large amount of blind dumb luck, presuming the manager doesn't sabotage them with pitching injuries or small-ball. If the players fail, then blame the guy who brought those players together: Dayton Moore.

If the Royals do not make the playoffs in 2014, I will not care about Ned at all. I'll instead be calling for DM to be fired.

It's the thought process behind the move (or non-move) that is aggravating.

Chiefspants · 09-15-2013, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alnorth

yep, I would disagree with that.

The team is what they are, regardless of the manager, and simple dumb luck also plays into it. Sometimes teams win more than they should for no particular reason, and the manager should get almost zero credit for that.

Regarding Guthrie, if he would have gotten the three outs without a HR, no one would have remembered it. Ned may have even been seen as a genious for sticking with "the hot hand". People only remember the negative, never remember the positive, they give way too much blame/credit to the manager and way too little blame/credit to the only guy who actually should be held accountable: the GM.

Getting this crazy-angry at Ned for a few selected games and decisions strikes me as primitive mobs wanting to burn a witch.

The players, and only the players, are going to determine a team's season, along with a large amount of blind dumb luck, presuming the manager doesn't sabotage them with pitching injuries or small-ball. If the players fail, then blame the guy who brought those players together: Dayton Moore.

If the Royals do not make the playoffs in 2014, I will not care about Ned at all. I'll instead be calling for DM to be fired.

Are you really suggesting it was acceptable for Ned to stick with Guthrie so our pitcher could get an all-mighty W?

You've stated in the past that you believe that Ned is the most competent manager we've had in the last decade. While that might be true, he's proven time and time again that he has no business overseeing a contender.

Finally, considering that Ned often uses small-ball to the point where the Royals seem like an NL team, I do not understand how you're using that as an argument to defend him.

tk13 · 09-15-2013, 08:32 PM

I do think baseball fans tend to remember and keep track of the games the manager loses but rarely remember the games where a decision or two might have helped win a game. I think that's pretty common across the board. It's the nature of being a baseball manager I guess.

That said I do think Yost cost us the game today. Guthrie had actually pitched well the last couple innings before the 8th. It's funny though... the move just didn't feel right. For all the stats and metrics... it just gave you a gut feeling that it was a bad move, regardless of anything else. It's a shame in such a big game Yost didn't turn to this team's biggest strength. Hard to justify that.

**Nzoner** · 09-15-2013, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alnorth

yep, I would disagree with that.

The team is what they are, regardless of the manager, and simple dumb luck also plays into it. Sometimes teams win more than they should for no particular reason, and the manager should get almost zero credit for that.

Regarding Guthrie, if he would have gotten the three outs without a HR, no one would have remembered it. Ned may have even been seen as a genious for sticking with "the hot hand". People only remember the negative, never remember the positive, they give way too much blame/credit to the manager and way too little blame/credit to the only guy who actually should be held accountable: the GM.

Getting this crazy-angry at Ned for a few selected games and decisions strikes me as primitive mobs wanting to burn a witch.

The players, and only the players, are going to determine a team's season, along with a large amount of blind dumb luck, presuming the manager doesn't sabotage them with pitching injuries or small-ball. If the players fail, then blame the guy who brought those players together: Dayton Moore.

If the Royals do not make the playoffs in 2014, I will not care about Ned at all. I'll instead be calling for DM to be fired.

The hot hand??

Seriously?

**Reaper16** · 09-15-2013, 08:34 PM

I get what alnorth is saying. But that doesn't change the fact that there is not a single cogent argument for sticking with Guthrie.

Chiefspants · 09-15-2013, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nzoner

The hot hand??

Seriously?

This. Guthrie had given up 13 baserunners in seven innings. I really am struggling to grasp your continued defense of Ned here, Al.

**lewdog** · 09-15-2013, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alnorth

yep, I would disagree with that.

The team is what they are, regardless of the manager, and simple dumb luck also plays into it. Sometimes teams win more than they should for no particular reason, and the manager should get almost zero credit for that.

Regarding Guthrie, if he would have gotten the three outs without a HR, no one would have remembered it. Ned may have even been seen as a genious for sticking with "the hot hand". People only remember the negative, never remember the positive, they give way too much blame/credit to the manager and way too little blame/credit to the only guy who actually should be held accountable: the GM.

Getting this crazy-angry at Ned for a few selected games and decisions strikes me as primitive mobs wanting to burn a witch.

The players, and only the players, are going to determine a team's season, along with a large amount of blind dumb luck, presuming the manager doesn't sabotage them with pitching injuries or small-ball. If the players fail, then blame the guy who brought those players together: Dayton Moore.

If the Royals do not make the playoffs in 2014, I will not care about Ned at all. I'll instead be calling for DM to be fired.

I really do get what you're saying but management of pitching is so much different and he's clearly been wrong more than right.

Look at the dumbass moves with Collins, pitching him like a typical pitcher even though his split against hitters is reverse of typical, yet Ned uses him wrong ALL year. Or the continued use of Herrera in 8th inning spots even when he was struggling.

And in the case of starting pitchers, none of them are going to say they need to come out. They all think they've still got it at any point in the game. It makes NO sense to leave Guts in there today. He'd already given up way to many base runners and was lucky with the score where it was.

I'm not one that only focuses on negatives like many here, but Ned's management of pitching the past few weeks has not been good. I think we're all just frustrated with how close we are.

Nightfyre · 09-15-2013, 08:35 PM

So alnorth, by that standard, no manager should ever be held accountable for the performance of their team.

Raiderhater · 09-15-2013, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alnorth

yep, I would disagree with that.

The team is what they are, regardless of the manager, and simple dumb luck also plays into it. Sometimes teams win more than they should for no particular reason, and the manager should get almost zero credit for that.

Regarding Guthrie, if he would have gotten the three outs without a HR, no one would have remembered it. Ned may have even been seen as a genious for sticking with "the hot hand". People only remember the negative, never remember the positive, they give way too much blame/credit to the manager and way too little blame/credit to the only guy who actually should be held accountable: the GM.

Getting this crazy-angry at Ned for a few selected games and decisions strikes me as primitive mobs wanting to burn a witch.

The players, and only the players, are going to determine a team's season, along with a large amount of blind dumb luck, presuming the manager doesn't sabotage them with pitching injuries or small-ball. If the players fail, then blame the guy who brought those players together: Dayton Moore.

If the Royals do not make the playoffs in 2014, I will not care about Ned at all. I'll instead be calling for DM to be fired.

Yes, the GM acquires the players. Yes, the players are the ones actually playing the game. BUT..... It is the manager's job to put those players in situations where they are most likely to succeed. He blew that, in a very costly manner, with JGuts today. He has blown that responsibility in similar fashion several times before. He has routinely blown that responsibility in regards to the line up. He has routinely blown that with his ridiculous bunting fetish.

The manager has a bigger impact than you are giving him credit for.

ChiefsCountry · 09-15-2013, 08:47 PM

You guys need to read the Cardinal thread on here nightly. They bitch and moan all the time about Mathney, hell they did with LaRussa as well. Its not just a Ned Yost thing.

Raiderhater · 09-15-2013, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry

You guys need to read the Cardinal thread on here nightly. They bitch and moan all the time about Mathney, hell they did with LaRussa as well. Its not just a Ned Yost thing.

LaRussa still won World Series. Please do not compare Ned to him.

KCGal · 09-15-2013, 08:49 PM

So Nost left Guthrie out there today to help him get a win. Do you think Yost has been taking a similar approach with hitting? That is putting an emphasis on letting batters swing away to get practice on trying to hit home runs (that is, fire Seitzer because we need to hit more home runs). There have been so many times this year where the royals just needed good situational hitting (sac fly, etc) and they just can't execute. The announcers on the game today (Ripken etc) were commenting on how Lorenzo Cain looked like he was swinging for the fences with men on 2nd and 3rd. And that he just needed to shorten swing and focus on an RBI. I have wondered all season if Yost has not put a focus on situational hitting in an effort to "get more home runs."

I am not sure I'm making sense but hopefully.

**alnorth** · 09-15-2013, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefspants

Are you really suggesting it was acceptable for Ned to stick with Guthrie so our pitcher could get an all-mighty W?

Your acting as if the HR was a foregone conclusion. It was not, even when you are given a batting practice fastball in the State Farm home run derby by your personal pitcher who wants you to hit it out, you usually fail.

The 3 outs Guthrie recorded looked pretty routine to me, he just ran into someone who got a hold of one. It could have happened in the 5th instead of the 8th.

08-15-2013, 08:13 AM
duncan_idaho M-I-Z-Z-O-U Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Kansas City Casino cash: $1760308	(New) 2013 Kansas City Royals Repository New thread, this time with more burst. Proposed 2013 Slogan: Tigers: They're what's for dinner Actual 2013 Slogan: Come to Play A better, more accurate, or alternative slogan: All in, no panic, we promise. Dayton Moore has pushed all his chips in and is riding on King/Jack suited, hoping it comes together, he gets some good luck, and he hits the nuts by the river card. There's potential, oh yes, there's potential. There's also risk. At the midway point, Dayton is left counting on the river card. The flop and turn didn't help him, and he's looking at the Tigers holding a pair of Queens and the Indians holding a pair of 9s. His 2013 plan hasn't failed - yet - but the odds are not in his favor. Burning questions updates below. Burning Questions for 2013: 1) Will the improve rotation be improved enough? Does James Shields pitch like a fringe No. 1 away from Tampa Bay? Does Ervin Santana pitch to his highest upside in his walk year? Can Jeremy Guthrie build on his strong performance as a Royal in 2012? Can Wade Davis bring his new mentality- and velocity - back to the rotation? Midseason check-in: Yes, the rotation is certainly improved enough. Shields has pitched like a fringe No. 1 and Santana is having his best season. Guthrie has horrible peripherals but has continued to perform well at his home park and eat innings on the road. Davis brought neither his kick-ass mentality or improved velocity back to the rotation and is in Luke Hochevar/Hiram Davies territory. 2) When will Luke Hochevar be shown the door? Midseason check-in: It appears, never, at this point. Hochevar has been solid in non-leverage situations, though pretty much every time he has been used with men on base in an inning, it has been a disaster. 3) Does Hosmer bounce back? Midseason check-in: It took some time, but Hosmer's performance from June 1 on is probably the most encouraging thing about the 2013 season so far. 4) Can Moustakas hit for a whole season like he did in the first half of 2012? Midseason check-in: Nope. Moustakas was god-awful, then great for about 3 weeks, then god-awful again. He has been better since he started working with Brett and Grafol but still has a long way to go. 5) Who regresses? Midseason check-in: Welp, Alicides Escobar is not a surprising name here (though Yost's stubborn insistence on hitting him second is ridiculous). Billy Butler is a surprise. He isn't having a terrible year - still contributing a lot to the offense - but he's not hitting for the average or power he has displayed over the past several years. 6) Who plays 2B? Midseason check-in: A whole bunch of people, and not that great. Gio is at least getting a shot, though he once again is not doing much with it. 7) Can Jeff Francoeur be at least replacement level, rather than epic horrible level? Midseason check-in: Hahahahahahahahahahaha 8) Will Dayton Moore survive to see 2014? Midseason check-in: Outlook uncertain. Probably still around, unless the team completely tanks in the second half and he does something foolish. My guess - he sacrifices Ned Yost this offseason and gets one more shot with a new manager in 2014. 9) Will Danny Duffy come back healthy? And if he does, is he the same, better or worse? Midseason check-in: Yes. Velocity looks the same, and it looks likely he is the same guy as before. 10) And the big one: Has KC added enough to run down the big-money Detroit Tigers? Midseason check-in: Doesn't look like it, does it?
Posts: 21,087

09-15-2013, 08:32 PM	#860
tk13 ... Join Date: Nov 2001 Casino cash: $1992500	I do think baseball fans tend to remember and keep track of the games the manager loses but rarely remember the games where a decision or two might have helped win a game. I think that's pretty common across the board. It's the nature of being a baseball manager I guess. That said I do think Yost cost us the game today. Guthrie had actually pitched well the last couple innings before the 8th. It's funny though... the move just didn't feel right. For all the stats and metrics... it just gave you a gut feeling that it was a bad move, regardless of anything else. It's a shame in such a big game Yost didn't turn to this team's biggest strength. Hard to justify that.
Posts: 54,946

09-15-2013, 08:35 PM	#865
Nightfyre MVP Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Helena, MT Casino cash: $3648849	So alnorth, by that standard, no manager should ever be held accountable for the performance of their team.
Posts: 18,552

09-15-2013, 08:47 PM	#867
ChiefsCountry The Insider Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Lake of the Ozarks Casino cash: $2328752	You guys need to read the Cardinal thread on here nightly. They bitch and moan all the time about Mathney, hell they did with LaRussa as well. Its not just a Ned Yost thing.
Posts: 49,605

09-15-2013, 08:49 PM	#869
KCGal Starter Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Overland Park KS Casino cash: $10005020	So Nost left Guthrie out there today to help him get a win. Do you think Yost has been taking a similar approach with hitting? That is putting an emphasis on letting batters swing away to get practice on trying to hit home runs (that is, fire Seitzer because we need to hit more home runs). There have been so many times this year where the royals just needed good situational hitting (sac fly, etc) and they just can't execute. The announcers on the game today (Ripken etc) were commenting on how Lorenzo Cain looked like he was swinging for the fences with men on 2nd and 3rd. And that he just needed to shorten swing and focus on an RBI. I have wondered all season if Yost has not put a focus on situational hitting in an effort to "get more home runs." I am not sure I'm making sense but hopefully.
Posts: 213