These "parents" should face criminal charges

[DaneMcCloud]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/...s_death_prayer

Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies

WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

[BigVE]

Originally Posted by a1na2

All that tells me is that you don't have an argument that can stand. There were no written laws broken.

I always have a nice day. I live, I am blessed and I am an American!

Cool. Do you thank God for that or do you thank a veteran that helped preserve that freedom??

[DenverChief]

Originally Posted by mikey23545

I was gonna pos rep ya but I'm all out

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Third Eye

If Koresh had just been a guy with a lot of guns and messianic complex, we would never have went near him. It was all the reports of child molestation (which turned out not to be true) that got the ball rolling.

I don't think I can agree with that. He did break biblical law by fathering children by the wives of his "church". At any rate, it's a moot point with him, he is taking the permanent dirt nap.

[mikey23545]

Originally Posted by DenverChief

I was gonna pos rep ya but I'm all out

It's all good, bro!

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by mikey23545

Great comeback. Did you read the link? It's very upright and clear of all biases and agenda's.

[DenverChief]

HOUSE BILL 01-1286 [Digest]

BY REPRESENTATIVE(S) Alexander, Borodkin, Boyd, Coleman, Garcia, Grossman, Hefley, Lawrence, Mace, Romanoff, Saliman, Tochtrop, Veiga, and Williams S.;

also SENATOR(S) Hagedorn, Hernandez, Linkhart, and Teck.



AN ACT

CONCERNING FAITH HEALING IN THE CRIME OF CHILD ABUSE.



Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the State of Colorado:

SECTION 1. Repeal. 18-6-401 (6), Colorado Revised Statutes, is repealed as follows:

18-6-401. Child abuse. (6) A parent, guardian, or legal custodian who chooses and legitimately practices treatment by spiritual means through prayer in accordance with section 19-3-103, C.R.S., shall not be considered to have injured or endangered the child and to be criminally liable under the laws of this state solely because he fails to provide medical treatment for the child, unless such person inhibits or interferes with the provision of medical treatment for the child in accordance with a court order, or unless there is an additional reason, other than health care, to consider the said child to be injured or endangered.

SECTION 2. Effective date - applicability. This act shall take effect July 1, 2001, and shall apply to offenses committed on or after said date.

SECTION 3. Safety clause. The general assembly hereby finds, determines, and declares that this act is necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health, and safety.

Approved: April 16, 2001

[Adept Havelock]

Originally Posted by a1na2

All I can see here is another stair step for those that have no religion, or do not have the capacity to understand religion, to jump on their soapbox and decry the whole concept.

That's all you see, because that's all you want to see.

The parents have a right to their faith. They do not have the right to allow their child to die due to indifference towards proper medical care for that child.

If these same parents had let the child starve to death because they felt he could be fed spiritually by prayer, they would be just as culpable.

Denverchief, bravo to Colorado for that law. I hope we will see something similar here in MO from the fallout of a similar case in Lee's Summit.

Tom, if freedom of religion is such an absolute with you, unless you're a hypocrite you should also support the right of anyone who claims and practices the faith of Rastifarianism to smoke as much wacky weed as they want with no legal repercussions whatsoever. Or for a "Christian Identity" whackjob to enslave another human being because of their color, as their faith teaches them the Children of Ham (which they interpret as pretty much anyone not Aryan) are fit only to be "hewers of wood and drawers of water." and there is nothing wrong with treating them as property.

My point with the latter two examples is we as a society have already drawn a line at which "Freedom of Religion" isn't an absolute because it infringes on other laws or rights. Thankfully, most people have the common sense to include allowing a child to die from medical inattention to that list.

Every state has laws against child endangerment and neglect, and this certainly qualifies.

[BigVE]

Originally Posted by a1na2

I don't think I can agree with that. He did break biblical law by fathering children by the wives of his "church". At any rate, it's a moot point with him, he is taking the permanent dirt nap.

According to WHOSE faith? HIS or YOURS????

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by BigVE

Cool. Do you thank God for that or do you thank a veteran that helped preserve that freedom??

Both, God gives me life, those that I served with and all of those before us gave us all that freedom.

If you don't know that it all works together there could be problems.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by BigVE

According to WHOSE faith? HIS or YOURS????

I believe the Bible covered that and they claimed to use the same one that I do.

[DenverChief]

http://www.post-gazette.com/regionst...0601faith5.asp

HOLLIDAYSBURG, Pa. -- Dennis and Lorie Nixon went to prison yesterday, convicted of letting their teen-age daughter die, giving her prayers when the law said they should have gotten her medical help.

It is the start of a 2 1/2-to-five-year prison sentence, and it's a day that prosecutors asked for but that nobody really relished.

Here were the parents of a big, mannerly, tight-laced family -- easy-going folks who worked hard, shunned television and lived from the Bible -- and now, they were going to state prison.

At home, the Nixons leave 10 children, with two of them in their 20s tending a clutch ages 3 to 17.

"With the children, I don't think it's sunk in yet," said Dennis Nixon Jr., 25, suddenly head of a household that he will run with sister Jennifer, 20. "I'll need God's help. I've never run a family before."

Bewildering it might be, but not enough to make him let go of a resolute grip on the family beliefs.

"Why didn't we seek medical treatment? The answer is we didn't feel it's right because of our religion," he said yesterday in one of the few times during a five-year legal odyssey that family members have spoken publicly. "I'm not trying to persuade anybody to see things my way. I just have my beliefs, and I want to be accepted for them."

Then, quietly, came the assurance that his parents would be safe in so foreign a world as a state prison. Officials have not said in which prisons the Nixons will serve their sentences.

"If God has a reason for them being there," Nixon said, "God's going to take care of them."

The beliefs are a mainstay for members of Faith Tabernacle Congregation, a low-profile, closely-bound congregation in which Dennis and Lorie Nixon -- he's 45, she's 49 -- grew up. Dennis Nixon's father is pastor there.

A decade ago, those beliefs meant the death of the Nixon's 8-year-old son, consumed by what doctors testified was a treatable ear infection. Dennis and Lorie Nixon pleaded no contest to endangering the welfare of a child and were sentenced to 125 hours of community service.

In 1996, daughter Shannon Nixon, 16, died of diabetes acidosis, a treatable condition in which her blood sugar levels soared twelvefold. She opted for prayer over medicine, fell into a coma and died.

Prosecutors put the blame on Shannon's parents, rejecting arguments that the girl was old enough to make her own medical decisions and winning convictions for manslaughter and endangering the welfare of children.

[BigVE]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Both, God gives me life, those that I served with and all of those before us gave us all that freedom.

If you don't know that it all works together there could be problems.

A persons faith and religion SHOULD be universal...our freedoms as Amercians are not.

[irishjayhawk]

Tom -

If you cannot infringe on religious belief (and therefore the absence of belief) can you explain to me whether I could simply start my own belief system that indulged in every illegal activity except murder and claim religious protection? Would that be allowed?

What about religious systems that decided that murder was the best form of loyalty? Could they claim religious protection?

Where do you draw the line?

[MIAdragon]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Tell me what law is on the books in the United States of America, or any individual state that forces you to see a doctor for any reason.

give me some time. This is from a study by the Committee on Bioethics.

"...the constitutional guarantees of freedom of religion do not sanction harming another person in the practice of one's religion, and they do not allow religion to be a legal defense when one harms another."

"Two important sets of interests are in apparent opposition - those of children in the benefits of proven medical and health care and those of parents in making a decision about their children's well-being. Some parents believe that a constitutionally protected freedom of religion allows them to deny their children some or all of the benefits of standard medical intervention. However, this interpretation of the US constitution is in contradiction to important court rulings to the effect that parents may not martyr their children based on parental beliefs and that children cannot be denied essential health care."

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Adept Havelock

That's all you see, because that's all you want to see.

The parents have a right to their faith. They do not have the right to allow their child to die due to indifference towards proper medical care.

If these same parents had let the child starve to death because they felt he could be fed spiritually by prayer, they would be just as culpable.

Denverchief, bravo to Colorado for that law. I hope we will see something similar here in MO from the fallout of a similar case in Lee's Summit.

Tom, if freedom of religion is such an absolute with you, unless you're a hypocrite you should also support the right of anyone who claims and practices the faith of Rastifarianism to smoke as much wacky weed as they want with no legal repercussions whatsoever. Or for a "Christian Identity" whackjob to enslave another human being because of their color, as their faith teaches them the Children of Ham are fit only to be "hewers of wood and drawers of water." and there is nothing wrong with treating them as property.

My point with the latter two examples is we as a society have already drawn a line at which "Freedom of Religion" isn't an absolute because it infringes on others laws or rights. Thankfully, most people have the common sense to include allowing a child to die from medical inattention to that list.

I think that you are floating way off track. I don't care what you are smoking. I don't have to be responsible for your actions, only my own. I don't belong to a wackjob religion that enslaves others because of their color. And for the record color has no play in what we have on this earth. In my belief God created Mankind (it doesn't say white, black, brown, yellow or any other color). There is only one race on this earth, the Human Race. If you ever get a grip on that you may live life easier.

As far as you last comment. By the way you wrote your comment you felt that they intentionally let the kid die. You don't know what efforts they put into the care of that kid while they were sick. When my kids were young and sick I didn't rush them to the emergency room when they had a hangnail. There are health issues that we all handle on a day to day basis. If you honestly feel that this couple did intentionally let their kid die I hope that you never have to be near a kid or family member when they come to that part of their life. You would be useless.