If Jesus were to ever return... how would anyone know it was him? - Page 3

**jAZ** · 02-20-2007, 12:02 AM

I'm pretty sure this guy isn't it, but there's a sizeable group that seems to think he is. Seems like all you have to do is be believable and with enough followers... you create your own "reality".

If that's the case, how in the world would we ever know objectively that someone is Jesus returned?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/16/mia...her/index.html

Pastor with 666 tattoo claims to be divine
POSTED: 2:08 p.m. EST, February 19, 2007

By John Zarrella and Patrick Oppmann
CNN

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- The minister has the number 666 tattooed on his arm.

But Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda is not your typical minister. De Jesus, or "Daddy" as his thousands of followers call him, does not merely pray to God: He says he is God.

"The spirit that is in me is the same spirit that was in Jesus of Nazareth," de Jesus says.

De Jesus' claims of divinity have angered Christian leaders, who say he is a fake. Religious experts say he may be something much more dangerous, a cult leader who really believes he is God. (Watch followers get 666 tattoos for their leader )

"He's in their heads, he's inside the heads of those people," says Prof. Daniel Alvarez, a religion expert at Florida International University who has debated some of de Jesus' followers.

"De Jesus speaks with a kind of conviction that makes me consider him more like David Koresh or Jim Jones."

Is de Jesus really a cult leader like David Koresh, who died with more than 70 of his Branch Davidian followers in a fiery end to a standoff with federal authorities, or Jim Jones, the founder of the Peoples Temple who committed mass suicide with 900 followers in 1978?

Prophets 'spoke to me'
De Jesus and his believers say their church -- "Creciendo en Gracia," Spanish for "Growing in grace" -- is misunderstood. Followers of the movement say they have proof that their minister is divine and that their church will one day soon be a major faith in the world.

But even de Jesus concedes that he is an unlikely leader of a church that claims thousands of members in more than 30 countries.

De Jesus, 61, grew up poor in Puerto Rico. He says he served stints in prison there for petty theft and says he was a heroin addict.

De Jesus says he learned he was Jesus reincarnate when he was visited in a dream by angels.

"The prophets, they spoke about me. It took me time to learn that, but I am what they were expecting, what they have been expecting for 2,000 years," de Jesus says.

The church that he began building 20 years ago in Miami resembles no other:

Followers have protested Christian churches in Miami and Latin America, disrupting services and smashing crosses and statues of Jesus.

De Jesus preaches there is no devil and no sin. His followers, he says, literally can do no wrong in God's eyes.

The church calls itself the "Government of God on Earth" and uses a seal similar to the United States.

Doing God's work with a Lexus and Rolex
If Creciendo en Gracia is an atypical religious group, de Jesus also does not fit the mold of the average church leader. De Jesus flouts traditional vows of poverty.

He says he has a church-paid salary of $136,000 but lives more lavishly than that. During an interview, he showed off a diamond-encrusted Rolex to a CNN crew and said he has three just like them. He travels in armored Lexuses and BMWs, he says, for his safety. All are gifts from his devoted followers.

And what about the tattoo of 666 on his arm?

Although it's a number usually associated with Satan, not the son of God, de Jesus says that 666 and the Antichrist are, like him, misunderstood.

The Antichrist is not the devil, de Jesus tells his congregation; he's the being who replaces Jesus on Earth.

"Antichrist is the best person in the world," he says. "Antichrist means don't put your eyes on Jesus because Jesus of Nazareth wasn't a Christian. Antichrist means do not put your eyes on Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Put it on Jesus after the cross."

And de Jesus says that means him.

So far, de Jesus says that his flock hasn't been scared off by his claims of being the Antichrist. In a show of the sway he holds over the group, 30 members of his congregation Tuesday went to a tattoo parlor to have 666 also permanently etched onto their skin.

He may wield influence over them, but his followers say don't expect them to go the way of people who believed in David Koresh and Jim Jones. Just by finding de Jesus, they say, they have achieved their purpose.

"If somebody tells us drink some Kool-Aid and we'll go to heaven, that's not true. We are already in heavenly places," follower Martita Roca told CNN after having 666 tattooed onto her ankle.

jidar · 02-20-2007, 08:51 AM

You'll know it's the real Jesus, he'll be the make-believe guy.

Megbert · 02-20-2007, 09:07 AM

I just realized that I am not Jesus last night actually. I was thinking about it and I'd be over at a party and you know how friends can be 'Jesus make us some wine, prove to us you are the son of god' so I would. Then 1 of em would piss me off so I'd leave but not before turning the wine back into water.

Sully · 02-20-2007, 10:23 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmviHBCqKow

NSFW- language.

Psyko Tek · 02-20-2007, 12:30 PM

How will we know it's jesus?

Easy, he'll be the guy on the cross

wilas101 · 02-20-2007, 12:47 PM

I haven't read every post in what I'm sure is a grade A theological discussion but it cracks me up that the "christian community" all jump up at once and proclaim this guy a fake.

Do they have private access to God's myspace page or something? How do they immediately know this dude ain't who he says he is? I say give the dude the benefit of the doubt.... have him walk on water or give a 3 legged dog another leg or something and verify his claims.

it's only fair.

El Jefe · 02-20-2007, 01:13 PM

We (that is us who have accepted Jesus into our hearts) will know who Jesus is because he will come in a twinkling of an eye and take us back with him to heaven. The rest of you will be Left Behind just like the movie. After Jesus takes us home there will be an anti-christ that comes and unites the world under one religion. This guy they are talking about is nothing more than a joke and he is not the anti-christ or anywhere near it. Stupid Mexican.

Sully · 02-20-2007, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcchiefsfanGoLJ

We (that is us who have accepted Jesus into our hearts) will know who Jesus is because he will come in a twinkling of an eye and take us back with him to heaven. The rest of you will be Left Behind just like the movie. After Jesus takes us home there will be an anti-christ that comes and unites the world under one religion. This guy they are talking about is nothing more than a joke and he is not the anti-christ or anywhere near it. Stupid Mexican.

Ultra Peanut · 02-20-2007, 01:15 PM

Quote:

De Jesus, or "Daddy" as his thousands of followers call him, does not merely pray to God: He says he is God.

Nobody ****s with De Jesus!

Stewie · 02-20-2007, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcchiefsfanGoLJ

We (that is us who have accepted Jesus into our hearts) will know who Jesus is because he will come in a twinkling of an eye and take us back with him to heaven. The rest of you will be Left Behind just like the movie. After Jesus takes us home there will be an anti-christ that comes and unites the world under one religion. This guy they are talking about is nothing more than a joke and he is not the anti-christ or anywhere near it. Stupid Mexican.

Weren't you supposed to catch a ride behind a comet a few years back?

InChiefsHeaven · 02-20-2007, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcchiefsfanGoLJ

We (that is us who have accepted Jesus into our hearts) will know who Jesus is because he will come in a twinkling of an eye and take us back with him to heaven. The rest of you will be Left Behind just like the movie. After Jesus takes us home there will be an anti-christ that comes and unites the world under one religion. This guy they are talking about is nothing more than a joke and he is not the anti-christ or anywhere near it. Stupid Mexican.

The Left Behind series is bad theology, as is the Rapture in general.

Sully · 02-20-2007, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InChiefsHell

The Left Behind series is bad theology, as is the Rapture in general.

But I do think I found something that makes me laugh harder than bumper sticker theology....

...straight to video theology.

chagrin · 02-20-2007, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sully

But I do think I found something that makes me laugh harder than bumper sticker theology....

...straight to video theology.

Speaking of laughable, how 'bout them Penguins, their one good season for the next 10 years, eh? hyuk hyuk hyuk

Sully · 02-20-2007, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chagrin

Speaking of laughable, how 'bout them Penguins, their one good season for the next 10 years, eh? hyuk hyuk hyuk

You know I'm a Wings fan at heart (until we get a KC team). I'm just pimping them in case they move here.

Ebolapox · 02-20-2007, 02:50 PM

he'd be the guy sitting on the bus trying to find his way home

nobody to call him on the phone, 'cept for the pope, maybe, in rome

InChiefsHeaven · 02-20-2007, 02:53 PM

He'd be the guy who looks like Ted Nugent.

02-20-2007, 12:02 AM
jAZ Supporter Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Tucson, AZ Casino cash: $9847493	If Jesus were to ever return... how would anyone know it was him? I'm pretty sure this guy isn't it, but there's a sizeable group that seems to think he is. Seems like all you have to do is be believable and with enough followers... you create your own "reality". If that's the case, how in the world would we ever know objectively that someone is Jesus returned? http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/16/mia...her/index.html Pastor with 666 tattoo claims to be divine POSTED: 2:08 p.m. EST, February 19, 2007 By John Zarrella and Patrick Oppmann CNN MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- The minister has the number 666 tattooed on his arm. But Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda is not your typical minister. De Jesus, or "Daddy" as his thousands of followers call him, does not merely pray to God: He says he is God. "The spirit that is in me is the same spirit that was in Jesus of Nazareth," de Jesus says. De Jesus' claims of divinity have angered Christian leaders, who say he is a fake. Religious experts say he may be something much more dangerous, a cult leader who really believes he is God. (Watch followers get 666 tattoos for their leader ) "He's in their heads, he's inside the heads of those people," says Prof. Daniel Alvarez, a religion expert at Florida International University who has debated some of de Jesus' followers. "De Jesus speaks with a kind of conviction that makes me consider him more like David Koresh or Jim Jones." Is de Jesus really a cult leader like David Koresh, who died with more than 70 of his Branch Davidian followers in a fiery end to a standoff with federal authorities, or Jim Jones, the founder of the Peoples Temple who committed mass suicide with 900 followers in 1978? Prophets 'spoke to me' De Jesus and his believers say their church -- "Creciendo en Gracia," Spanish for "Growing in grace" -- is misunderstood. Followers of the movement say they have proof that their minister is divine and that their church will one day soon be a major faith in the world. But even de Jesus concedes that he is an unlikely leader of a church that claims thousands of members in more than 30 countries. De Jesus, 61, grew up poor in Puerto Rico. He says he served stints in prison there for petty theft and says he was a heroin addict. De Jesus says he learned he was Jesus reincarnate when he was visited in a dream by angels. "The prophets, they spoke about me. It took me time to learn that, but I am what they were expecting, what they have been expecting for 2,000 years," de Jesus says. The church that he began building 20 years ago in Miami resembles no other: Followers have protested Christian churches in Miami and Latin America, disrupting services and smashing crosses and statues of Jesus. De Jesus preaches there is no devil and no sin. His followers, he says, literally can do no wrong in God's eyes. The church calls itself the "Government of God on Earth" and uses a seal similar to the United States. Doing God's work with a Lexus and Rolex If Creciendo en Gracia is an atypical religious group, de Jesus also does not fit the mold of the average church leader. De Jesus flouts traditional vows of poverty. He says he has a church-paid salary of $136,000 but lives more lavishly than that. During an interview, he showed off a diamond-encrusted Rolex to a CNN crew and said he has three just like them. He travels in armored Lexuses and BMWs, he says, for his safety. All are gifts from his devoted followers. And what about the tattoo of 666 on his arm? Although it's a number usually associated with Satan, not the son of God, de Jesus says that 666 and the Antichrist are, like him, misunderstood. The Antichrist is not the devil, de Jesus tells his congregation; he's the being who replaces Jesus on Earth. "Antichrist is the best person in the world," he says. "Antichrist means don't put your eyes on Jesus because Jesus of Nazareth wasn't a Christian. Antichrist means do not put your eyes on Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Put it on Jesus after the cross." And de Jesus says that means him. So far, de Jesus says that his flock hasn't been scared off by his claims of being the Antichrist. In a show of the sway he holds over the group, 30 members of his congregation Tuesday went to a tattoo parlor to have 666 also permanently etched onto their skin. He may wield influence over them, but his followers say don't expect them to go the way of people who believed in David Koresh and Jim Jones. Just by finding de Jesus, they say, they have achieved their purpose. "If somebody tells us drink some Kool-Aid and we'll go to heaven, that's not true. We are already in heavenly places," follower Martita Roca told CNN after having 666 tattooed onto her ankle.
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02-20-2007, 08:51 AM	#31
jidar MVP Join Date: May 2005 Location: a Casino cash: $10004900	You'll know it's the real Jesus, he'll be the make-believe guy.
Posts: 5,502

02-20-2007, 09:07 AM	#32
Megbert New and shiny. Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: KC KS Casino cash: $9270260	I just realized that I am not Jesus last night actually. I was thinking about it and I'd be over at a party and you know how friends can be 'Jesus make us some wine, prove to us you are the son of god' so I would. Then 1 of em would piss me off so I'd leave but not before turning the wine back into water.
Posts: 10,198

02-20-2007, 10:23 AM	#33
Sully It Goes On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Lees Summit Casino cash: $10026331	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmviHBCqKow NSFW- language. __________________ "And I don't wish that girl any bad luck," he said, "but I hope she gets hit with a car." - Tommy Lasorda
Posts: 18,295

02-20-2007, 12:30 PM	#34
Psyko Tek special teams Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Mesa AZ Casino cash: $10015665	How will we know it's jesus? Easy, he'll be the guy on the cross __________________ Psyko Tek The keyboard has been drinking,
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02-20-2007, 12:47 PM	#35
wilas101 Starter Join Date: Mar 2005 Casino cash: $8449487	I haven't read every post in what I'm sure is a grade A theological discussion but it cracks me up that the "christian community" all jump up at once and proclaim this guy a fake. Do they have private access to God's myspace page or something? How do they immediately know this dude ain't who he says he is? I say give the dude the benefit of the doubt.... have him walk on water or give a 3 legged dog another leg or something and verify his claims. it's only fair.
Posts: 775

02-20-2007, 01:13 PM	#36
El Jefe Don't tread on me. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Where the peaches grow Casino cash: $9030572	We (that is us who have accepted Jesus into our hearts) will know who Jesus is because he will come in a twinkling of an eye and take us back with him to heaven. The rest of you will be Left Behind just like the movie. After Jesus takes us home there will be an anti-christ that comes and unites the world under one religion. This guy they are talking about is nothing more than a joke and he is not the anti-christ or anywhere near it. Stupid Mexican.
Posts: 8,540

02-20-2007, 02:50 PM	#44
Ebolapox remember, remember Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: como Casino cash: $2059903	if jesus were to ever return... he'd be the guy sitting on the bus trying to find his way home nobody to call him on the phone, 'cept for the pope, maybe, in rome
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02-20-2007, 02:53 PM	#45
InChiefsHeaven Rockin' yer FACE OFF! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Omaha, Nebraska Casino cash: $3844937	He'd be the guy who looks like Ted Nugent. __________________ We have a million reasons for failure, but not one excuse... Die Donks, DIE!! Holy Crap fellas!!! We did it!!! THREE TIMES!!!
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