The Hobbit

[mnchiefsguy]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Yes, without question. The real question is how?

What happened in the immediate aftermath of Gandalf battling the Balrog is hard to understand/explain, and open to interpretation. The way I usually explain it is that Gandalf also died (at least his body did -- he's a demi-God -- he's older than the planet he's walking on) -- and when his spirit returned to the West, the Gods pretty much picked him up, brushed him off, made him a bit more powerful (dont' ask how, other than making him the head of the Order of Wizards) and sent him back. Like Tom Bombadil (who is in the books, but not the movies), there's really no good explanation, but that's how I think of it.

The idea of the body of a god/demigod (Valar/Maiar is the formal name) beign lost but the spirit continuing appears repeatedly in the books. Sauron loses his body (which was attractive and used to fool men/elves) in the drowning of Numenor. He then takes shape again during the Second Age, before he is overthrown by Men and Elves (the opening scene of the Lord of the Rings movies, when you see his ring cut from his hand. Likewise, Morgoth himself was previously able to take whatever physical form he wished, but ultimately lost that power and became trapped, if you will, in the body that he had.

Note also that Sauron never had ANY actual physical manifestation in the Lord of the Rings books. In the movie he is this big, physical glowing Eye. In the books, the Eye is his SYMBOL only, and he has no physical shape at all. Presumably, if he had been able to recover the One Ring, which held much of his power, he could perhaps have physically manifested again. Until then, in the books at least, it is his SPIRIT that is active in the world, controlling his minions, etc.

I agree with this...but in addition, I also have always thought that when Gandolf returned to the West, Sauramon's betrayal was also fully revealed...and at that time he lost his ranking as Sauramon the White (even though he did not know it yet). The Gods, in turn, promoted Gandolf and sent him back to do what Sauramon would not.

This is part of what makes Tolkien's works so great....they are written in a way that challenges the mind, and are open to vastly different interpretations.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy

I agree with this...but in addition, I also have always thought that when Gandolf returned to the West, Sauramon's betrayal was also fully revealed...and at that time he lost his ranking as Sauramon the White (even though he did not know it yet). The Gods, in turn, promoted Gandolf and sent him back to do what Sauramon would not.

Yes, right. That is when Gandalf was "elevated" to the White. Part of the power boost he got (however that happened, exactly).

Here's a power boost, oh, and now you're the White. Go do Saruman's job since he's failed so utterly...

This is part of what makes Tolkien's works so great....they are written in a way that challenges the mind, and are open to vastly different interpretations.

Yes, he wasn't terribly interested in tying off every loose end.