Benefits of Socialism - Page 3

oleman47 · 06:32 AM

Public ownership of means of production of goods or services to be shared by all, socialism, arose as answer to the abuses of the industrial revolution and cartel unresponsiveness to public need. This was most prevalent in areas we now call public utilities. As an example, electricity providers refused to extend service to farmers. Water companies refused to extend services to new areas or suburbs. Almost all became regulated as monopolistic pricing was rampant.

We are in an energy crisis which is of corporate failure to provide. The international cartel is limiting crude oil production while wanting subsidies to acquire more. The cartel refuses to build refineries in order to enhance profit margins to drill for more of what they are limiting.

Conoco oil is located in Ponca City, Oklahoma. Not a bastion of left wing eco-wackos. Ponca Citians would love to have a few more refineries. The CEO says that to build more refineries will lower gas prices and therefore restrict their exploration program. While admitting their is more than enough oil, it is just that his company does not own it. This was very honest. And if you were a shareholder, music to your ears. For the consumer, we will screw you if we can.

In the past, the oil companies would not carry enough crude inventory so a national inventory was established for emergencies, which was helpful last summer to hit OPEC over the head with as they continue their eternal exercise in greed. I think we need the same thing now in energy production. Enough energy producing capacity to assure that monopolistic pricing and willful scarcity is blunted. Bush said he is sending 100 billion to some of us to buy gas with. Why not build a few refineries?

Frazod · 05-12-2001, 12:57 PM

Russ, I remember hearing or reading that in Canada, heart patients must wait around 2 years for live-saving operations. Is that true?

I guess this would have the advantage of shortening the wait for the others when everyone in line ahead of them dies...

I do think doctors are way, way overpaid. But socialism isn't the answer to any problem.

oleman47 · 05-12-2001, 01:03 PM

So you guys can get the argument straight!

Historically, in this country and others, when capitalism failed to provide a service or product of basic need, of universal benefit to the group, it has authorized gov't to provide. This may be Arrowhead stadium, a public golf course, Rural electricfication, bridges, water and sewage facilites, tornado sirens, airports, etc.

We are short of refineries and captalism has failed to provide a basic need, energy. Since they are not, we can as a people build out own, tell them to suck an egg. Why take this crap from them. Our forfathers sure as hell didn't.

You guys can hide out from the problem and defend semantical windmills, but we can build refineries, we can buy oil, there is nothing against that in our laws or in our bibles.. I would think some of you rugged individualists would see that letting some guy waiting out his holding period on a stock option deprive you what you can easily provide without him is more the American Way than kissing some corporate butt.

KCWolfman · 05-12-2001, 01:05 PM

Tim - When Canada runs out of healthcare money at the end of every year (which they have for several decades now) most crucial operations are put on hold as being too expensive. Special Dispensation can be given, but you have to earn it with form after form, and the money <b>must</b> be allocated from another government program before the dispensation is given.

Frankly, I believe in standard good old fair economics. If one doc is charging too much, another will earn his business by charging less.

Besides, I would rather have a doctor charging me too much and me being able to pay my bill six months later than having a doctor never operate on me and my family enjoying the savings of healthcare and burial expenses because the state covered them.

KCWolfman · 05-12-2001, 01:07 PM

Seems like you have a plan, Donald.

Go out, get a loan, start a refinery and start enjoying all those great tax breaks you keep telling us about.

Good luck

KCWolfman · 05-12-2001, 01:07 PM

Only Donald would refer to medical care and human lives as 'semantic windmills'.

Frazod · 05-12-2001, 01:11 PM

Russ, this is by no means an area of expertise for me, but again, it seems I've heard that one of the biggest reasons medical expenses are so high is because the AMA severelly restricts the number of applicants admitted to medical school, thereby effectively keeping the amount of doctors small (as opposed to lawyers, for example, who are graduating law school at a rate which far exceeds the need for new ones).

It seems that the best answer would be to somehow neuter the AMA, increase the number of practicing doctors, and that would have the effect of increasing competition and driving down medical costs.

oleman47 · 05-12-2001, 01:16 PM

If our forefathers had 5% of the list of things we can,t do as you guys we wouldn't be here, there would have. No industrial revolution, no moon shot, nothing --just people saying we can't do this, we can't do that. We can have health care, or whatever, we really can. If some HMO'S want to screw us we do not have to bend over and gush how good it was.
Trained corporate puppets. Throwing away their freedom.

KCWolfman · 05-12-2001, 01:23 PM

Tim - You mean eliminate the Government approved AMA?

Excellent idea. The less government the better.

Donald - If socialism is so much better, why are you not living in a socialist country? I hear France needs a new Jerry Lewis. (I am sorry about this comment, but a corporation has their hand up my butt and threw their voice)

**AustinChief** · 05-12-2001, 01:27 PM

Russ,

I'm all about capitalism... but the problem comes when "new" competition cannot enter the marketplace.

Right now, the oil companies are all doing well so they aren't competing amongst themselves enough... and the lines of distribution are so tightly held that it is virtually impossible for new players to enter the market...

The worst part is that I don't see an answer (even with govt. intervention... which I despise the thought of).

--Kyle

**AustinChief** · 05-12-2001, 01:30 PM

Russ,

My feelings exactly on the AMA ... I have alot of friends in medicine and I still feel that the AMA is a complete ethics nightmare... one of our great govt. sponsered monopolies!

--Kyle

KCWolfman · 05-12-2001, 01:30 PM

Kyle - While it sometimes takes awhile to even the field, it always evens on a fair market. Eventually someone else will have the bucks and enter the scene. Whether it be a bank, an individual, or another nation.

KCWolfman · 05-12-2001, 01:32 PM

Kyle - Our docs have several Anagramistic explanations for the letters AMA, most off which will be bleeped if I repeat them.

Frazod · 05-12-2001, 01:35 PM

Yeah, the oil companies have got us by the balls. Government intervention will only screw it up worse. I guess we wait until big oil executives grow souls (which will never happen), or just stop using their product to the point when prices come down. I've cut my driving down as much as I can, and I'm giving serious consideration to getting a more fuel-efficient car (which sucks, because I love the one I have).

I don't want the money I earned stolen from me by the government or big business. Of course, that's kind of the way it is. I have no easy answers. Guess I'll be driving a lot less.

KCWolfman · 05-12-2001, 01:42 PM

I just finished watching a program on the new Rosen Car. It was absolutely fascinating.

It uses airplane turbine technology to exponentially increase rpms of the flywheel and virtually uses drops of gas where gallons were used.

They expect to offer the engine to only one of the big three auto makers and let them have the advantage of the market, temporarily. All three have expressed a huge desire to be the one.

Thus the free market edge moves on.

This was written in 1996
[url]http://www.time.com/time/magazine/archive/1996/dom/960923/entre.html[/url]

This in 97
[url]http://www.columbia.edu/cu/business/botline/fall97/9_25/Benrosen.html[/url]

And this one even more recently
[url]http://www.aw.com/englishpages/tech_talking_hardware.htm[/url]

Each article has raised more and more interest from the Big 3

Harold Rosen is the modern day Edison.

yoswif · 05-12-2001, 01:51 PM

How does ending the socialist tax and regulatory policies and ending socialist judicial activism policies which protect large corporations from competition help the large corporations which give huge sums of money to the Republicrat (Demopublican)/Socialist Party to keep these socialist protections in place? It seems to me the supporters of socialist policies and the Republicrat (Demopublican)/Socialist Party are the corporate lackeys.

05-12-2001, 06:29 AM
oleman47 Starter Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Wichita Casino cash: $10004900	Public ownership of means of production of goods or services to be shared by all, socialism, arose as answer to the abuses of the industrial revolution and cartel unresponsiveness to public need. This was most prevalent in areas we now call public utilities. As an example, electricity providers refused to extend service to farmers. Water companies refused to extend services to new areas or suburbs. Almost all became regulated as monopolistic pricing was rampant. We are in an energy crisis which is of corporate failure to provide. The international cartel is limiting crude oil production while wanting subsidies to acquire more. The cartel refuses to build refineries in order to enhance profit margins to drill for more of what they are limiting. Conoco oil is located in Ponca City, Oklahoma. Not a bastion of left wing eco-wackos. Ponca Citians would love to have a few more refineries. The CEO says that to build more refineries will lower gas prices and therefore restrict their exploration program. While admitting their is more than enough oil, it is just that his company does not own it. This was very honest. And if you were a shareholder, music to your ears. For the consumer, we will screw you if we can. In the past, the oil companies would not carry enough crude inventory so a national inventory was established for emergencies, which was helpful last summer to hit OPEC over the head with as they continue their eternal exercise in greed. I think we need the same thing now in energy production. Enough energy producing capacity to assure that monopolistic pricing and willful scarcity is blunted. Bush said he is sending 100 billion to some of us to buy gas with. Why not build a few refineries? Last edited by oleman47; 05-12-2001 at 06:32 AM..
Posts: 512

05-12-2001, 12:57 PM	#31
Frazod WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $3045085	Russ, I remember hearing or reading that in Canada, heart patients must wait around 2 years for live-saving operations. Is that true? I guess this would have the advantage of shortening the wait for the others when everyone in line ahead of them dies... I do think doctors are way, way overpaid. But socialism isn't the answer to any problem.
Posts: 119,511

05-12-2001, 01:03 PM	#32
oleman47 Starter Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Wichita Casino cash: $10004900	So you guys can get the argument straight! Historically, in this country and others, when capitalism failed to provide a service or product of basic need, of universal benefit to the group, it has authorized gov't to provide. This may be Arrowhead stadium, a public golf course, Rural electricfication, bridges, water and sewage facilites, tornado sirens, airports, etc. We are short of refineries and captalism has failed to provide a basic need, energy. Since they are not, we can as a people build out own, tell them to suck an egg. Why take this crap from them. Our forfathers sure as hell didn't. You guys can hide out from the problem and defend semantical windmills, but we can build refineries, we can buy oil, there is nothing against that in our laws or in our bibles.. I would think some of you rugged individualists would see that letting some guy waiting out his holding period on a stock option deprive you what you can easily provide without him is more the American Way than kissing some corporate butt.
Posts: 512

05-12-2001, 01:05 PM	#33
KCWolfman Fall down 7 times, get up 8 Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10004900	Tim - When Canada runs out of healthcare money at the end of every year (which they have for several decades now) most crucial operations are put on hold as being too expensive. Special Dispensation can be given, but you have to earn it with form after form, and the money <b>must</b> be allocated from another government program before the dispensation is given. Frankly, I believe in standard good old fair economics. If one doc is charging too much, another will earn his business by charging less. Besides, I would rather have a doctor charging me too much and me being able to pay my bill six months later than having a doctor never operate on me and my family enjoying the savings of healthcare and burial expenses because the state covered them. __________________ How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words! Samuel Adams
Posts: 15,469

05-12-2001, 01:07 PM	#34
KCWolfman Fall down 7 times, get up 8 Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10004900	Seems like you have a plan, Donald. Go out, get a loan, start a refinery and start enjoying all those great tax breaks you keep telling us about. Good luck __________________ How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words! Samuel Adams
Posts: 15,469

05-12-2001, 01:11 PM	#36
Frazod WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $3045085	Russ, this is by no means an area of expertise for me, but again, it seems I've heard that one of the biggest reasons medical expenses are so high is because the AMA severelly restricts the number of applicants admitted to medical school, thereby effectively keeping the amount of doctors small (as opposed to lawyers, for example, who are graduating law school at a rate which far exceeds the need for new ones). It seems that the best answer would be to somehow neuter the AMA, increase the number of practicing doctors, and that would have the effect of increasing competition and driving down medical costs.
Posts: 119,511

05-12-2001, 01:16 PM	#37
oleman47 Starter Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Wichita Casino cash: $10004900	If our forefathers had 5% of the list of things we can,t do as you guys we wouldn't be here, there would have. No industrial revolution, no moon shot, nothing --just people saying we can't do this, we can't do that. We can have health care, or whatever, we really can. If some HMO'S want to screw us we do not have to bend over and gush how good it was. Trained corporate puppets. Throwing away their freedom.
Posts: 512

05-12-2001, 01:23 PM	#38
KCWolfman Fall down 7 times, get up 8 Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10004900	Tim - You mean eliminate the Government approved AMA? Excellent idea. The less government the better. Donald - If socialism is so much better, why are you not living in a socialist country? I hear France needs a new Jerry Lewis. (I am sorry about this comment, but a corporation has their hand up my butt and threw their voice) __________________ How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words! Samuel Adams Last edited by KCWolfman; 05-12-2001 at 01:29 PM..
Posts: 15,469

05-12-2001, 01:27 PM	#39
AustinChief Administrator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Austin Casino cash: $2589112	Russ, I'm all about capitalism... but the problem comes when "new" competition cannot enter the marketplace. Right now, the oil companies are all doing well so they aren't competing amongst themselves enough... and the lines of distribution are so tightly held that it is virtually impossible for new players to enter the market... The worst part is that I don't see an answer (even with govt. intervention... which I despise the thought of). --Kyle
Posts: 19,527

05-12-2001, 01:30 PM	#40
AustinChief Administrator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Austin Casino cash: $2589112	Russ, My feelings exactly on the AMA ... I have alot of friends in medicine and I still feel that the AMA is a complete ethics nightmare... one of our great govt. sponsered monopolies! --Kyle
Posts: 19,527

05-12-2001, 01:32 PM	#42
KCWolfman Fall down 7 times, get up 8 Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10004900	Kyle - Our docs have several Anagramistic explanations for the letters AMA, most off which will be bleeped if I repeat them. __________________ How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words! Samuel Adams
Posts: 15,469

05-12-2001, 01:35 PM	#43
Frazod WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $3045085	Yeah, the oil companies have got us by the balls. Government intervention will only screw it up worse. I guess we wait until big oil executives grow souls (which will never happen), or just stop using their product to the point when prices come down. I've cut my driving down as much as I can, and I'm giving serious consideration to getting a more fuel-efficient car (which sucks, because I love the one I have). I don't want the money I earned stolen from me by the government or big business. Of course, that's kind of the way it is. I have no easy answers. Guess I'll be driving a lot less.
Posts: 119,511

05-12-2001, 01:42 PM	#44
KCWolfman Fall down 7 times, get up 8 Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10004900	I just finished watching a program on the new Rosen Car. It was absolutely fascinating. It uses airplane turbine technology to exponentially increase rpms of the flywheel and virtually uses drops of gas where gallons were used. They expect to offer the engine to only one of the big three auto makers and let them have the advantage of the market, temporarily. All three have expressed a huge desire to be the one. Thus the free market edge moves on. This was written in 1996 [url]http://www.time.com/time/magazine/archive/1996/dom/960923/entre.html[/url] This in 97 [url]http://www.columbia.edu/cu/business/botline/fall97/9_25/Benrosen.html[/url] And this one even more recently [url]http://www.aw.com/englishpages/tech_talking_hardware.htm[/url] Each article has raised more and more interest from the Big 3 Harold Rosen is the modern day Edison. __________________ How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words! Samuel Adams
Posts: 15,469

05-12-2001, 01:51 PM	#45
yoswif Starter Join Date: Apr 2001 Casino cash: $10004900	How does ending the socialist tax and regulatory policies and ending socialist judicial activism policies which protect large corporations from competition help the large corporations which give huge sums of money to the Republicrat (Demopublican)/Socialist Party to keep these socialist protections in place? It seems to me the supporters of socialist policies and the Republicrat (Demopublican)/Socialist Party are the corporate lackeys.
Posts: 214