Movies and TV The Official "Lost" the series discussion - Page 409

Deberg_1990 · 10-06-2004, 04:29 PM

I figured I would start a thread for this and see what happens....there seemed to be quite a few viewers on the board for this show the past few weeks.....I like the direction the show is taking so far......episode 3 tonight at 7 central on ABC....

**Reaper16** · 06-19-2010, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

What it means that people who work in the "industry" understand screenwriting.

I've read forever throughout this thread that the producers had absolutely no idea where this show was going, and I repeatedly said that they did.

It's not an insult. I wouldn't begin to try to tell an expert in auto mechanics or physics or nuclear engineering or any number of professions that they don't know what they're talking about.

But I DO work in film & TV and I DO understand screenwriting and it's process and I DO understand just about everything about this business.

I understand writing. And you know what? I pretty much agree with you on this. I think that once the show was given a set end date that the show did nothing but forward progress to the general endgame that was always known. The messy bits of seasons 2 & 3 seem to me to be directly related to the problem of writing with no idea how long they have to delay the endgame, how long ABC might want the show to run.

Red Brooklyn · 06-19-2010, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper16

I understand writing. And you know what? I pretty much agree with you on this. I think that once the show was given a set end date that the show did nothing but forward progress to the general endgame that was always known. The messy bits of seasons 2 & 3 seem to me to be directly related to the problem of writing with no idea how long they have to delay the endgame, how long ABC might want the show to run.

I would absolutely second this. Though, I loved those messy bits of Season 2.

**DaneMcCloud** · 06-19-2010, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Brooklyn

And...

Are solid posts, Reaper.

I apologize if I've offended. As I said, I'm sure you didn't mean it exactly the way it was interpreted.

Believe me, sir, I also understand screenwriting. Very well. Since we both understand screenwriting and it's process so well, and we can't see eye to eye on this... what does that mean?

With all due respect, you've yet to finish the series.

As I've said repeatedly, you can either believe in an island, in a purgatory constructed by the main characters of the show, etc.

Or you can believe that none of it really happened.

It's your choice.

irishjayhawk · 06-19-2010, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

What it means that people who work in the "industry" understand screenwriting.

I've read forever throughout this thread that the producers had absolutely no idea where this show was going, and I repeatedly said that they did.

It's not an insult. I wouldn't begin to try to tell an expert in auto mechanics or physics or nuclear engineering or any number of professions that they don't know what they're talking about.

But I DO work in film & TV and I DO understand screenwriting and its process and I DO understand just about everything about this business.

Again, I didn't mean to insult anyone but I'm kinda ****ing sick of being railed at for my understanding.

For the most part, you're getting railed on for two reasons:

1) Lack of evidence
2) Lack of consistency (ie. dream v flash before eyes, show is about Jack v Jack constructs it in nanosecond before death)

You've never really addressed point 1 other than saying things are to fantastical (Egyptians, monsters, polar bears, etc) to be "real".

As for 2, you've constantly seemed to move the goal posts. Flashing before death would be filed under "dream sequence" in any logical method of ending categorizations. Not to mention that a show can be about a character and yet not have the entire show hinge on that character's death. That is, LOST can be about Jack (which I agree with) but that fact doesn't mean that he constructed it while dying. Those are two different ideas that CAN be related but also can be SEPARATE.

**DaneMcCloud** · 06-19-2010, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishjayhawk

For the most part, you're getting railed on for two reasons:

1) Lack of evidence
2) Lack of consistency (ie. dream v flash before eyes, show is about Jack v Jack constructs it in nanosecond before death)

You've never really addressed point 1 other than saying things are to fantastical (Egyptians, monsters, polar bears, etc) to be "real".

As for 2, you've constantly seemed to move the goal posts. Flashing before death would be filed under "dream sequence" in any logical method of ending categorizations. Not to mention that a show can be about a character and yet not have the entire show hinge on that character's death. That is, LOST can be about Jack (which I agree with) but that fact doesn't mean that he constructed it while dying. Those are two different ideas that CAN be related but also can be SEPARATE.

Lack of evidence?

It's right before your eyes.

If you can't see it, there's nothing I can say or do to change your mind.

You have your perception of what happened, I have mine.

**DaneMcCloud** · 06-19-2010, 08:26 PM

Oh, and one more thing: The producer made a massive error in judgment by having the coffin empty when Jack arrived at the church.

It should have been Jack in that coffin because it was his "funeral".

The final ten minutes was a Mongolian cluster****.

Red Brooklyn · 06-19-2010, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

With all due respect, you've yet to finish the series.

As I've said repeatedly, you can either believe in an island, in a purgatory constructed by the main characters of the show, etc.

Or you can believe that none of it really happened.

It's your choice.

Well, just to clarify, with all due respect, I have have finished the series. In fact, I've seen every episode of the series (except The End, which I've still only seen once as it aired) at least 3 times. In many cases, many more than that. Not that I'm claiming to be more informed or more of an "expert" than others. Just that I've had ample time to form my opinions and I do, to that end, know what I'm talking about, and try to support my own ideas thusly.

And I chose to believe in the former. Because if none of it really happened, I don't see the point. That idea worked fine in 1939, with technicolor to distruct the audience. But in the modern decade, not only is it cheap and unimaginative, it's irresponsible and cowardly to tell the audience "none of it really happened." There's just no way that's what Damon, Carlton, JJ et al were trying to communicate. I really can't see it that way.

So, again, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Red Brooklyn · 06-19-2010, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Oh, and one more thing: The producer made a massive error in judgment by having the coffin empty when Jack arrived at the church.

It should have been Jack in that coffin because it was his "funeral".

The final ten minutes was a Mongolian cluster****.

I didn't get (or rather take it) that it was Jack's funeral. Also, it was Christian's coffin. Des had it delivered to the church. I think showing Jack in Christian's coffin would have gummed up the works and made little sense to me.

Though, I do enjoy the phrase "Mongolian cluster****." That's nice.

**DaneMcCloud** · 06-19-2010, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Brooklyn

So, again, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree.

When I say "none of it really happened", I mean that none of it happened outside of Jack's final flash.

If I'm to believe that they were actually taken to this magical place and were able to construct a parallel universe for theirselves to come to some sort of "realization", independently of each other, I'd need a lot more of an explanation than just a few minutes of exposition by Christian Shepard.

But again, that's just me.

**DaneMcCloud** · 06-19-2010, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Brooklyn

I didn't get (or rather take it) that it was Jack's funeral. Also, it was Christian's coffin. Des had it delivered to the church. I think showing Jack in Christian's coffin would have gummed up the works and made little sense to me.

Though, I do enjoy the phrase "Mongolian cluster****." That's nice.

That's the thing: It WASN'T Christian's funeral because Christian was long dead.

Jack "died". Everyone else was dead already. They were all waiting for him before moving on. IMO, that says that it was all about Jack and all in Jack's flash.

Otherwise, why in the hell would all of those people hang around waiting for Jack? It just doesn't make sense and quite honestly, there's way too much that doesn't make sense (at least to me) on a literal level.

Red Brooklyn · 06-19-2010, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

That's the thing: It WASN'T Christian's funeral because Christian was long dead.

Jack "died". Everyone else was dead already. They were all waiting for him before moving on. IMO, that says that it was all about Jack and all in Jack's flash.

Otherwise, why in the hell would all of those people hang around waiting for Jack? It just doesn't make sense and quite honestly, there's way too much that doesn't make sense (at least to me) on a literal level.

Sure. I can understand that.

But, I don't think it was anyone's funeral. Not Christian's. Not Jack's. Not anyone's. The church (which happened to be the same church that housed The Lamp Post Station) was just a meating place.

And they were all already dead. Jack included. He died long ago. The others were just waiting for Jack to "wake up" to the reality of the situation. That's why they were all hanging around waiting for him. They weren't waiting for him to "die" or arrive or anything like that. They were waiting for him to realize the truth. To let go. They were waiting because they couldn't move on without him. He was the last piece.

In a large way the show was about Jack. It was his quest. He was Luke Skywalker. He was Oddessyus. He was The Hero With A Thousand Faces. Absolutley, yes. I agree with that. But he needed the rest of them too. And they needed him. I, personally, don't like to trivialize the rest of the group. They were all there for a reason.

**Reaper16** · 06-19-2010, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Brooklyn

Sure. I can understand that.

But, I don't think it was anyone's funeral. Not Christian's. Not Jack's. Not anyone's. The church (which happened to be the same church that housed The Lamp Post Station) was just a meating place.

And they were all already dead. Jack included. He died long ago. The others were just waiting for Jack to "wake up" to the reality of the situation. That's why they were all hanging around waiting for him. They weren't waiting for him to "die" or arrive or anything like that. They were waiting for him to realize the truth. To let go. They were waiting because they couldn't move on without him. He was the last piece.

In a large way the show was about Jack. It was his quest. He was Luke Skywalker. He was Oddessyus. He was The Hero With A Thousand Faces. Absolutley, yes. I agree with that. But he needed the rest of them too. And they needed him. I, personally, don't like to trivialize the rest of the group. They were all there for a reason.

And Dane is saying that, yes, they were there for a reason. Jack did need them. Only they were imagined personas of Jack's planemates, constructed by Jack's mind.

Red Brooklyn · 06-19-2010, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

If I'm to believe that they were actually taken to this magical place and were able to construct a parallel universe for theirselves to come to some sort of "realization", independently of each other, I'd need a lot more of an explanation than just a few minutes of exposition by Christian Shepard.

That's fair. I, personally, don't. But I totally understand why you would want/need more of an explanation.

I don't completely agree with your characterization above, however. For example, I do believe they crashed on a "magical" island. However, I think, like The X-Files, they tried to provide a scientific (albiet psuedo-scientific at times) explanation for the magic. I do believe they constructed a place, but I don't think it was parallel to anything. I think it was an after life. And they didn't need to come to some sort of realization indepedently of each other. The island - life - was about reaching the realizations, finding the redemptions, etc. The after-life was about reuniting and letting go. And they certainly didn't do that independently of each other. The whole point was that they needed each other to do it.

Again, just my take. But I think it's an informed and supported (by the episode) opinion.

Red Brooklyn · 06-19-2010, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper16

And Dane is saying that, yes, they were there for a reason. Jack did need them. Only they were imagined personas of Jack's planemates, constructed by Jack's mind.

Right. Though, I wonder what he needed them for if they were imagined... maybe it was just to help him have his anagnorisis?

Which doesn't ring true to me. Or make a lot of creative sense. But I can understand why someone coming from that point of view would be frustrated by the show.

**DaneMcCloud** · 06-19-2010, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Brooklyn

Right. Though, I wonder what he needed them for if they were imagined... maybe it was just to help him have his anagnorisis?

It's called "rationalization"

Jack needed for everything that occurred on the island to happen so that he could move on.

Science versus Faith.

Since he was dead, there was no time limit. Thematically, Jack's eyes opened and Jack's eyes closed, signifying the beginning and end of his journey.

Once again, I'm not stating unequivocally that everyone should see or believe what I believe about the "true meaning" of the series.

But I just don't appreciate being told that I'm "wrong" without anyone giving me specific reasons, based on 122 hours of television.

10-06-2004, 04:29 PM
Deberg_1990 In Search of a Life Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Antonio Tx. Casino cash: $3914454	The Official "Lost" the series discussion I figured I would start a thread for this and see what happens....there seemed to be quite a few viewers on the board for this show the past few weeks.....I like the direction the show is taking so far......episode 3 tonight at 7 central on ABC....
Posts: 66,914

06-19-2010, 08:26 PM	#6126
DaneMcCloud Supporter Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Hollywood, CA Casino cash: $10053648	Oh, and one more thing: The producer made a massive error in judgment by having the coffin empty when Jack arrived at the church. It should have been Jack in that coffin because it was his "funeral". The final ten minutes was a Mongolian cluster****.
Posts: 88,960