These "parents" should face criminal charges - Page 3

**DaneMcCloud** · 03-27-2008, 07:12 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/...s_death_prayer

Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies

WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

mikey23545 · 03-27-2008, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a1na2

Nice comeback, you don't have anything productive to say so you insult and throw out information that has no base. These people were not doing anything against the law.

Let it play out and see if the authorities do it. I doubt that they will, it's a no win situation.

Did you even read my post? Do you not have a shred of decency or compassion in you, or has your "loving" God ripped the last vestiges of humanity right out of you?

As I said, if adults want to be so reeruned as to sentence themselves to death, fine. Are you saying that you feel it is also fine for them to do the same to children who themselves are too young to know what is right?

What a sick faith you follow....

a1na2 · 03-27-2008, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigVE

Dude, I'm a christian, I'm religious and I agree with you to a point but one thing needs to be addressed with your statement here: the American "way" with our rights and freedoms is NOT the only "right" way. What are you saying...God is AMERICAN and supports OUR bill or rights???? dont think so.

I'm not sure where you got that, but what I'm saying is that we AS AMERICANS, have some undeniable rights and one of those rights is to practice our religion as we see fit. This has nothing to do with the religion part of the equation but the freedoms that we enjoy as Americans.

Jenson71 · 03-27-2008, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a1na2

We can argue all night but you are not going to convince me that those people should be punished for exercising their right to believe in their religion.

Maybe you should sleep on this over the night. Because this is not sane. This is stupidity and a disregard for any good common sense, decency and humanity. A little girl is dead because her parents sat around and did not call a doctor and get help for her when she was clearly sick. Unbelievable!! No one would support them just walking away!!! NO SANE PERSON!!! This is not a freedom of religion argument. This is watching a child die!!

MIAdragon · 03-27-2008, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a1na2

I'm not sure where you got that, but what I'm saying is that we AS AMERICANS, have some undeniable rights and one of those rights is to practice our religion as we see fit. This has nothing to do with the religion part of the equation but the freedoms that we enjoy as Americans.

Not if it leads to DEATH!?!?

a1na2 · 03-27-2008, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikey23545

Did you even read my post? Do you not have a shred of decency or compassion in you, or has your "loving" God ripped the last vestiges of humanity right out of you?

As I said, if adults want to be so reeruned as to sentence themselves to death, fine. Are you saying that you feel it is also fine for them to do the same to children who themselves are too young to know what is right?

What a sick faith you follow....

Considering your statement you wouldn't know faith if it came up and kicked you in the balls.

You have no concept of what is being discussed. All you can do is lower insults and call people names. Try, just this once, to explain what you think you know so we can all understand your basis of belief.

What is my faith? You seem to have the thought that you know exactly where I am. Spill it out dude. I want to know just what you feel is fact about what I believe and what I do not believe.

a1na2 · 03-27-2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MIAdragon

Not if it leads to DEATH!?!?

I'm sure that nobody in this country has ever died because of a mis-belief or a mistake.

You guys are trying to levy criminal law against someone that was living their life the way we all have the opportunity to do.

All I can see here is another stair step for those that have no religion, or do not have the capacity to understand religion, to jump on their soapbox and decry the whole concept.

a1na2 · 03-27-2008, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenson71

Maybe you should sleep on this over the night. Because this is not sane. This is stupidity and a disregard for any good common sense, decency and humanity. A little girl is dead because her parents sat around and did not call a doctor and get help for her when she was clearly sick. Unbelievable!! No one would support them just walking away!!! NO SANE PERSON!!! This is not a freedom of religion argument. This is watching a child die!!

Do you believe that God can heal a human being? If so, why is it that a family that has a sick child cannot believe the same thing for that child?

BigVE · 03-27-2008, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a1na2

I'm not sure where you got that, but what I'm saying is that we AS AMERICANS, have some undeniable rights and one of those rights is to practice our religion as we see fit. This has nothing to do with the religion part of the equation but the freedoms that we enjoy as Americans.

Dude, that is exactly what the issue is. They have been brought together by these people and by you thus the comparison. Using our "rights' to support your religious faith brings this into question.

a1na2 · 03-27-2008, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DenverChief

Faith-Healing Couple Sentenced

Dennis and Lorie Nixon were sentenced in early June to 2-1/2 to 5 years each in prison for the death of their daughter, Shannon, 16, who succumbed to treatable complications from diabetes in June 1996 when her parents followed their church's faith-healing doctrine rather than summoning medical help.
The Nixons were convicted of involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment in April for the death of their second child due to faith-healing practices. The Nixons previously pleaded no contest and were given probation for the 1991 death of their son, Clayton, 8, who died of an untreated ear infection.

Mrs. Nixon, 44, was due to give birth to her eleventh child in July. Blair County Judge Norman Callan has ordered social workers to visit the Nixons' home monthly to protect the remaining children.

Link?

Jenson71 · 03-27-2008, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a1na2

You guys are trying to levy criminal law against someone that was living their life the way we all have the opportunity to do.

And glad to do so!! We actually don't all have the opportunity to go around letting our children die when we could be saving their lives. Because you get thrown in jail for a long time because of that. For instance, if my wife and I had a baby, we could not thrown it in the crib and pray that God takes care of it while we are on vacation. That's just wrong. And other adjectives.

a1na2 · 03-27-2008, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigVE

Dude, that is exactly what the issue is. They have been brought together by these people and by you thus the comparison. Using our "rights' to support your religious faith brings this into question.

Either we have freedom to practice our religion as we see fit or we don't. If we don't the constitution is null and void. This country was founded on the basis of freedom of religion. You might want to go back and check the original documents to verify that.

MIAdragon · 03-27-2008, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a1na2

I'm sure that nobody in this country has ever died because of a mis-belief or a mistake.

You guys are trying to levy criminal law against someone that was living their life the way we all have the opportunity to do.

All I can see here is another stair step for those that have no religion, or do not have the capacity to understand religion, to jump on their soapbox and decry the whole concept.

Brother Im about as relgious as they come but come on now this is nothing more than nelgect as a parent religous or not you HAVE to explore every option when it comes to your children.

Swanman · 03-27-2008, 08:28 PM

Under our current system of laws in many states, those parents do have the right to withhold medical care because of their wacky-ass religious beliefs. But that doesn't make them any less moronic. They have a right to exercise their freedom of religion, and at the same time I'll exercise my freedom of speech and call them idiotic shitheads for what they did.

Jenson71 · 03-27-2008, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a1na2

Do you believe that God can heal a human being? If so, why is it that a family that has a sick child cannot believe the same thing for that child?

They can pray to God just fine. I'm all for it. But they can not physically neglect their child with the care the child needs. And that's what they did.

Third Eye · 03-27-2008, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a1na2

I don't think that goes into the family unit. I agree with what you say, but inside your own family I don't think there is precedent for arguing that in court. It wouldn't even take a good lawyer to win a case like that.

Waco comes to mind.

03-27-2008, 07:12 PM
DaneMcCloud Supporter Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Hollywood, CA Casino cash: $10053648	These "parents" should face criminal charges http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/...s_death_prayer Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor. An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said. She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney. The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors. She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently. "We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering." Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said. The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body. Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl. "My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith." The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent. "Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now." The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital. But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead. She is survived by her parents and three older siblings. "We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time." The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway. Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."
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03-27-2008, 08:28 PM	#43
Swanman It's a league game, Dude Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Itasca, IL Casino cash: $9967354	Under our current system of laws in many states, those parents do have the right to withhold medical care because of their wacky-ass religious beliefs. But that doesn't make them any less moronic. They have a right to exercise their freedom of religion, and at the same time I'll exercise my freedom of speech and call them idiotic shitheads for what they did.
Posts: 4,719