Is there more wrong with the defense than the secondary?

Red Dawg · 11-18-2004, 02:32 PM

The pash rush has been better despite being with out Junior to take up blockers and we are stopping the run alot better. 16th in the league I think. We've been hurt at MLB alot without Maz but to me Woods and Wesley have been major problems. Most of our bad plays have come over the middle and deep. If those two had played like NFL players we'd all be singing a different tune with a winning record.

Gaz · 11-18-2004, 02:38 PM

Linebackers.

The new pass coverage rules hurt. And if you watch the replays, the Safeties are leaping on run support, which leaves them out of position on the long plays. IMO, that is because our LBs are weak.

That does not mean that I am excited about our secondary. I am not. But we are not a good D with a bad secondary.

xoxo~
Gaz
Wonders what will happen to the run D if the Safeties stay back.

**Mr. Kotter** · 11-18-2004, 02:39 PM

Yes.

We don't have a TRUE Pash Rushing DE....and we need a dominating LB, preferably a MLB....

In the Secondary, ironically....if we get those I think all we need is an upgrade at corner--I'm convinced our safeties are tryin' to compensate for the LBs. I'd take Bartee or even McCleon as a nickle....but without a shutdown corner, there's too much pressure on the unit.

So, there you go....three players, IMHO. I'd guess we'd field a top ten "D" or close with that.

Of course, we already knew that LAST year, didn't we!!!

Coogs · 11-18-2004, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddy T

The pash rush has been better despite being with out Junior to take up blockers and we are stopping the run alot better. 16th in the league I think. We've been hurt at MLB alot without Maz but to me Woods and Wesley have been major problems. Most of our bad plays have come over the middle and deep. If those two had played like NFL players we'd all be singing a different tune with a winning record.

Think for a moment who our best defender has been this year. Lional Dalton has to be near the top of the list. He wasn't even wanted by his last two teams. 'nuff said about the talent level. It ain't here, with or without Maz.

**Lzen** · 11-18-2004, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coogs

Think for a moment who our best defender has been this year. Lional Dalton has to be near the top of the list. He wasn't even wanted by his last two teams. 'nuff said about the talent level. It ain't here, with or without Maz.

I don't think you can use that as a good case that the Chiefs defense has no talent. If Dalton had played as well when he was in Denver or Washington, they would not have let him go.

I tend to agree with SDChiefsfan. I don't believe the whole defense is a bunch of hacks. We really need a pass rusher badly and a shutdown corner. Obviously, our LBs are young and inexperienced for the most part but, I think they'll get much better as they go along. And Woods really needs to start playing like a real NFL player.

MOhillbilly · 11-18-2004, 03:22 PM

lack of speed and a nose for the football coupled w/ bad play from bad players who lack the talent to be starters in the NFL.

Coogs · 11-18-2004, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lzen

I don't think you can use that as a good case that the Chiefs defense has no talent. If Dalton had played as well when he was in Denver or Washington, they would not have let him go.

I didn't really say Dalton was playing well. I just said he was one of our best players. I have seen quite a few missed plays from Dalton thru the first 9 games too.

el borracho · 11-18-2004, 03:36 PM

Our starting Defensive Ends are well below average.

I actually have some faith in our linebackers. Our linebackers are young/ inexperienced but may grow to be good.

I'm not sure what Woods problem is this year but he has been out of position, afraid to hit and slow.

jspchief · 11-18-2004, 03:58 PM

I'm going to put it all on our secondary. And specifically the play of our safeties. They offer little help in passing plays and seem to be caught out of position often. They also take the blame on the majority of our run D. A large portion of our games where we perform poorly against the run (statistically), it's due to one or two big runs. Not 15 yards big, 40+ yards big. To me, your safety is the guy that stops a run at 15 yards instead of letting it continue to 40+. It's like they're getting burnt on pass plays because they always bite on run fakes, yet when it is a run, they aren't there to make the stop anyway.

That doesn't mean that I don't think our LB situation is bad. They are very mediocre. But with better safety support, most of the games where we played poorly against the run wouldn't have been as bad. Besides, we have suffered a lot of injuries at the LB spot, and specifically at MLB (a position that I feel is important to have a field captain at).

The D-line I'll go easy on. We do get solid pressure, and play well against north/south run plays for the most part. Many of the damaging pass plays are not due to lack of pressure, but instead lack of downfield coverage. QBs know that they can get a ball off quickly in the direction of some of our poor secondary players.

I honestly believe that with better safety play we could be much more effective on defense. We wouldn't be top ten, but we might be a legit top 15.

ROYC75 · 11-18-2004, 04:11 PM

Everybody knows how I feel, but I'm going to chime in anyways.

This is year 1 of a new scheme, it is going to take some time for the guys to adjust as a unit of what the other is doing. Rest assure, we see guys still out of place, either by biting on a fake or overunning the play.

The secondary can not cover like a blanket and there is no such thing as a shutdown corner. There are corners better than others, it happens to be we have the others. We need upgrade at CB's positions.

The DL is better, but still lack the one dominate guy to build around. Can Dalton or Jr. be that one is the question that will be answered in time. Jr has been injured most of this year, kinda the way Sims has started. Jr has shown more than Sims has his 1st year. We need more upgrade here in the DL.

The linebackers are not as bad as many think, here's why. We are young and they will learn if coached properly and they have the ability to pay attention to learn.We have upgraded with more speed by getting Fox. He is Barbers replacement in the future,but since he is injured, now is the time to get his feet wet.

We are OK with Scott on the OLB, Fox and Biesel will compete for that other OLB spot.

Jones is nothing more than a backup OLB and a ST player.

The MLB is a major problem, get this problem straighten out and the others will come along much quicker. We need somebody who is tough, mean, smart and can make tackles when gets to the hole, not getting blocked out of the way. A good run stuffing MLB is crucial in allowing the secondary to help with the pass coverage. When you lack a runn stuffing DT's and MLB's, your safeties have to play up to help with both pass and run support, leaving them open to the long pass plays.

Mitchell has not been the answer, and IMHO is not going to be.IMHO, he can be a quality backup and ST's player.

Can Maz come back ? IMHO, I don't see this, he will probally be slower than before, age is catching up with him. He might get another year or 2 as a backup and ST's player.

You know how I feel about Rich, he meets all the things I mentioned above for what we need in a MLB. I beleive he is very capable of being that run stuffing MLB we need to help the secondary,espicially the safties.

Get the middle straighten out, DT's and MLB. It's just like baseball, you have to be solid up the middle, SS,2nd base and CF.

philfree · 11-18-2004, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Jr has been injured most of this year,

He's been out since the game against the Falcons. What I find ammusing is he was injured by a leg-whip but when he was whipped he didn't even go down. He just kinda stood there and looked at the guy like WTF? After a year in our offseason program he should become a monster DT. We can only hope......

PhilFree

Deberg_1990 · 11-18-2004, 05:38 PM

I found this on ESPN's page. Its from Pascarelli Morning After Column. This may be why our D sucks so bad.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...morning/week10

In the mind of Bucs defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin and former head coach Tony Dungy -- and that means, in the mind of Rich McKay, too, we're guessing -- you've got to have three positions which feature superior performers. The weak-side linebacker. Strong safety. And, yep, "under" tackle, an interior force who aligns in the gap, who can penetrate, who gets into the backfield and wreaks all sorts of havoc and disruption.

From our notes, and McKay's quotes of this summer: "The nose tackle-type guys, the guys who just plug the middle, you can find them. But 'under' tackles, those are hard to come by, and it's tough to play without them." Talk about a self-fulfilling prophesy. Atlanta found a superior "under' tackle this spring, when it added former Oakland Raiders standout Rod Coleman as an unrestricted free agent.

And now, nine games into the year, the Falcons know precisely what it means to play with Coleman and to play without him in the lineup. Coleman returned on Sunday, in the Falcons' victory over Tampa Bay, after missing three games with shoulder and knee injuries he sustained in the Oct. 16 one-vehicle accident. And we're thinking it wasn't just coincidence that, with Coleman on the field again, Atlanta registered a season-high seven sacks. Despite being triple-teamed at times, Coleman had two sacks, giving him six in six appearances this year.

Left end Patrick Kerney, who had seven sacks in his first four games but had gone four games without a sack (including all three contests in which Coleman was sidelined), got back in the sack column again.

Want some number-crunching? In the six games Coleman played, the Falcons have allowed an average of 276.5 yards and 13.3 points, totaled 25 sacks and registered 12 takeaways. Four times in those games, the defense held opponents to less than 300 yards, and three times the Falcons unit permitted fewer than 250 yards. Atlanta didn't permit more than 20 points in any of those contests.

In the three games Coleman missed, the defense surrendered an average of 475 yards and 34.7 points, recorded one measly sack and five takeaways. Opponents scored 20 or more points in all three of those outings and that included 84 points the past two weeks.

Not that we didn't buy into Rich McKay's sermon this summer about the significance of the "under' tackle spot. But if anyone needed graphic evidence -- and McKay, by trade, is an attorney -- it was more than sufficiently provided with Coleman as Exhibit A.

11-18-2004, 02:32 PM
Red Dawg Going home eventually Join Date: Dec 2002 Casino cash: $4712858	Is there more wrong with the defense than the secondary? The pash rush has been better despite being with out Junior to take up blockers and we are stopping the run alot better. 16th in the league I think. We've been hurt at MLB alot without Maz but to me Woods and Wesley have been major problems. Most of our bad plays have come over the middle and deep. If those two had played like NFL players we'd all be singing a different tune with a winning record.
Posts: 30,441

11-18-2004, 02:38 PM	#2
Gaz Defense Homer Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Rancho Gaz Casino cash: $10010793	Yes... Linebackers. The new pass coverage rules hurt. And if you watch the replays, the Safeties are leaping on run support, which leaves them out of position on the long plays. IMO, that is because our LBs are weak. That does not mean that I am excited about our secondary. I am not. But we are not a good D with a bad secondary. xoxo~ Gaz Wonders what will happen to the run D if the Safeties stay back.
Posts: 5,911

11-18-2004, 02:39 PM	#3
Mr. Kotter The Dude Abides Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Dakota Country Casino cash: $5805285	Yes. We don't have a TRUE Pash Rushing DE....and we need a dominating LB, preferably a MLB.... In the Secondary, ironically....if we get those I think all we need is an upgrade at corner--I'm convinced our safeties are tryin' to compensate for the LBs. I'd take Bartee or even McCleon as a nickle....but without a shutdown corner, there's too much pressure on the unit. So, there you go....three players, IMHO. I'd guess we'd field a top ten "D" or close with that. Of course, we already knew that LAST year, didn't we!!! __________________ "I've always said I worry about legacy and winning rings more than making money at this moment...We see what's going on around the league, but at the same time, I'll never do anything that's going to hurt us from keeping the great players around me.”
Posts: 46,352

11-18-2004, 03:22 PM	#6
MOhillbilly Mama Tried Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Missouri Casino cash: $9949903	lack of speed and a nose for the football coupled w/ bad play from bad players who lack the talent to be starters in the NFL.
Posts: 23,371

11-18-2004, 03:36 PM	#8
el borracho In Pat We Trust Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Albuquerque, NM Casino cash: $6279148	Our starting Defensive Ends are well below average. I actually have some faith in our linebackers. Our linebackers are young/ inexperienced but may grow to be good. I'm not sure what Woods problem is this year but he has been out of position, afraid to hit and slow.
Posts: 11,837

11-18-2004, 03:58 PM	#9
jspchief BAMF Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Your Face Casino cash: $9998710	I'm going to put it all on our secondary. And specifically the play of our safeties. They offer little help in passing plays and seem to be caught out of position often. They also take the blame on the majority of our run D. A large portion of our games where we perform poorly against the run (statistically), it's due to one or two big runs. Not 15 yards big, 40+ yards big. To me, your safety is the guy that stops a run at 15 yards instead of letting it continue to 40+. It's like they're getting burnt on pass plays because they always bite on run fakes, yet when it is a run, they aren't there to make the stop anyway. That doesn't mean that I don't think our LB situation is bad. They are very mediocre. But with better safety support, most of the games where we played poorly against the run wouldn't have been as bad. Besides, we have suffered a lot of injuries at the LB spot, and specifically at MLB (a position that I feel is important to have a field captain at). The D-line I'll go easy on. We do get solid pressure, and play well against north/south run plays for the most part. Many of the damaging pass plays are not due to lack of pressure, but instead lack of downfield coverage. QBs know that they can get a ball off quickly in the direction of some of our poor secondary players. I honestly believe that with better safety play we could be much more effective on defense. We wouldn't be top ten, but we might be a legit top 15. __________________ Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all.
Posts: 27,207

11-18-2004, 04:11 PM	#10
ROYC75 Time For Your Wake Up Call !!! Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Barn Yard Casino cash: $5589400	Everybody knows how I feel, but I'm going to chime in anyways. This is year 1 of a new scheme, it is going to take some time for the guys to adjust as a unit of what the other is doing. Rest assure, we see guys still out of place, either by biting on a fake or overunning the play. The secondary can not cover like a blanket and there is no such thing as a shutdown corner. There are corners better than others, it happens to be we have the others. We need upgrade at CB's positions. The DL is better, but still lack the one dominate guy to build around. Can Dalton or Jr. be that one is the question that will be answered in time. Jr has been injured most of this year, kinda the way Sims has started. Jr has shown more than Sims has his 1st year. We need more upgrade here in the DL. The linebackers are not as bad as many think, here's why. We are young and they will learn if coached properly and they have the ability to pay attention to learn.We have upgraded with more speed by getting Fox. He is Barbers replacement in the future,but since he is injured, now is the time to get his feet wet. We are OK with Scott on the OLB, Fox and Biesel will compete for that other OLB spot. Jones is nothing more than a backup OLB and a ST player. The MLB is a major problem, get this problem straighten out and the others will come along much quicker. We need somebody who is tough, mean, smart and can make tackles when gets to the hole, not getting blocked out of the way. A good run stuffing MLB is crucial in allowing the secondary to help with the pass coverage. When you lack a runn stuffing DT's and MLB's, your safeties have to play up to help with both pass and run support, leaving them open to the long pass plays. Mitchell has not been the answer, and IMHO is not going to be.IMHO, he can be a quality backup and ST's player. Can Maz come back ? IMHO, I don't see this, he will probally be slower than before, age is catching up with him. He might get another year or 2 as a backup and ST's player. You know how I feel about Rich, he meets all the things I mentioned above for what we need in a MLB. I beleive he is very capable of being that run stuffing MLB we need to help the secondary,espicially the safties. Get the middle straighten out, DT's and MLB. It's just like baseball, you have to be solid up the middle, SS,2nd base and CF. __________________ Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it. John Lennon
Posts: 37,000

11-18-2004, 05:38 PM	#12
Deberg_1990 In Search of a Life Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Antonio Tx. Casino cash: $3914454	I found this on ESPN's page. Its from Pascarelli Morning After Column. This may be why our D sucks so bad. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...morning/week10 In the mind of Bucs defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin and former head coach Tony Dungy -- and that means, in the mind of Rich McKay, too, we're guessing -- you've got to have three positions which feature superior performers. The weak-side linebacker. Strong safety. And, yep, "under" tackle, an interior force who aligns in the gap, who can penetrate, who gets into the backfield and wreaks all sorts of havoc and disruption. From our notes, and McKay's quotes of this summer: "The nose tackle-type guys, the guys who just plug the middle, you can find them. But 'under' tackles, those are hard to come by, and it's tough to play without them." Talk about a self-fulfilling prophesy. Atlanta found a superior "under' tackle this spring, when it added former Oakland Raiders standout Rod Coleman as an unrestricted free agent. And now, nine games into the year, the Falcons know precisely what it means to play with Coleman and to play without him in the lineup. Coleman returned on Sunday, in the Falcons' victory over Tampa Bay, after missing three games with shoulder and knee injuries he sustained in the Oct. 16 one-vehicle accident. And we're thinking it wasn't just coincidence that, with Coleman on the field again, Atlanta registered a season-high seven sacks. Despite being triple-teamed at times, Coleman had two sacks, giving him six in six appearances this year. Left end Patrick Kerney, who had seven sacks in his first four games but had gone four games without a sack (including all three contests in which Coleman was sidelined), got back in the sack column again. Want some number-crunching? In the six games Coleman played, the Falcons have allowed an average of 276.5 yards and 13.3 points, totaled 25 sacks and registered 12 takeaways. Four times in those games, the defense held opponents to less than 300 yards, and three times the Falcons unit permitted fewer than 250 yards. Atlanta didn't permit more than 20 points in any of those contests. In the three games Coleman missed, the defense surrendered an average of 475 yards and 34.7 points, recorded one measly sack and five takeaways. Opponents scored 20 or more points in all three of those outings and that included 84 points the past two weeks. Not that we didn't buy into Rich McKay's sermon this summer about the significance of the "under' tackle spot. But if anyone needed graphic evidence -- and McKay, by trade, is an attorney -- it was more than sufficiently provided with Coleman as Exhibit A.
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