****OFFICIAL 2013 NBA PLAYOFFS THREAD****

[-King-]

2012-2013 NBA Champions:

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by AdumbGuy

what games were you watching last two years? lebron over deng in the chicago series 2 years ago, like 10 straight points to blow open a tie game to close out boston 2 years ago. those are just off the top of my head. Lebron's been the "closer" for some time now.

As for the jordan comparisons, lebron averaged 38,9, and 9 in a 6 game series against orlando - the best defensive team in the league. Not exactly a slouch

You're putting words into my mouth. I didn't say he was a slouch.

You are comparing him to a guy who averaged 33 points per game in the playoffs, and a guy who hit 50% of his game winning shots. You are comparing him to a guy who three-peated TWICE. You are comparing him to the greatest player to play any professional sport, ever.

So no, pulling a few games here and there isn't good enough when you're making this comparison. LeBron has played in the past 2 seasons, unbelievably lackluster playoff competition and up until the Pacers series, it's largely been dominating performances followed by strong enough late game performances with some unbelievable flashes sprinkled in. You can feel free to look at late game logs of close games and see how many turnovers, missed shots, passes, and missed free throws he committed. Again, these are not saying he's a slouch, but let me repeat for the billionth time. You are comparing him to Michael Jordan.

[AdumbGuy]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

You're putting words into my mouth. I didn't say he was a slouch.

You are comparing him to a guy who averaged 33 points per game in the playoffs, and a guy who hit 50% of his game winning shots. You are comparing him to a guy who three-peated TWICE. You are comparing him to the greatest player to play any professional sport, ever.

So no, pulling a few games here and there isn't good enough when you're making this comparison. LeBron has played in the past 2 seasons, unbelievably lackluster playoff competition and up until the Pacers series, it's largely been dominating performances followed by strong enough late game performances with some unbelievable flashes sprinkled in. You can feel free to look at late game logs of close games and see how many turnovers, missed shots, passes, and missed free throws he committed. Again, these are not saying he's a slouch, but let me repeat for the billionth time. You are comparing him to Michael Jordan.

Not trying to say that you're calling him a bum, just saying that as "greatest of all time" potential, lebron is pretty heady competition for Jordan as opposed to say a Kobe.

Lebron's playoff averages are about 28, 9, and 7. Jordan's were about 33, 6, and 6. comparable.

As far as lackluster competition, Lebron has gone up against the top defensive team in the league almost every year in the playoffs.

Game logs? I'm watching the games. You saw the 48 special in detroit, I'm assuming? Even Jordan never had a game like that.

It's too early in his career to say, but the possibility that Lebron might be better than Jordan when all is said and done is very, very real.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by AdumbGuy

Not trying to say that you're calling him a bum, just saying that as "greatest of all time" potential, lebron is pretty heady competition for Jordan as opposed to say a Kobe.

Lebron's playoff averages are about 28, 9, and 7. Jordan's were about 33, 6, and 6. comparable.

As far as lackluster competition, Lebron has gone up against the top defensive team in the league almost every year in the playoffs.

Game logs? I'm watching the games. You saw the 48 special in detroit, I'm assuming? Even Jordan never had a game like that.

It's too early in his career to say, but the possibility that Lebron might be better than Jordan when all is said and done is very, very real.

I'm not comparing him to Kobe. Other people are bringing him up when I've already acknowledged LeBron is past him.

And no, I doubt LeBron passes MJ. And based on what we've seen, it is not very, very real unless he plays every playoff series the way he has against the Pacers. And no, his road to the playoffs the past 2 years is outrageously bad, especially when you consider how cold and unprepared OKC was.

LeBron has nothing to put him up against Jordan yet. You are talking about a guy who was regularly putting up 30's, 40's, and often times 50's, and won 6 championships (against much tougher competition). He has a VERY long way to go to beat Jordan.

[AdumbGuy]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I'm not comparing him to Kobe. Other people are bringing him up when I've already acknowledged LeBron is past him.

And no, I doubt LeBron passes MJ. And based on what we've seen, it is not very, very real unless he plays every playoff series the way he has against the Pacers. And no, his road to the playoffs the past 2 years is outrageously bad, especially when you consider how cold and unprepared OKC was.

LeBron has nothing to put him up against Jordan yet. You are talking about a guy who was regularly putting up 30's, 40's, and often times 50's, and won 6 championships (against much tougher competition). He has a VERY long way to go to beat Jordan.

Not sure what you're talking about. These games aren't sustainable. You can't do that in every playoff game. He breaks these games out when they're needed. Against indy last year, he had a 40, 19, 9 game after bosh went out; the 45 point outburst came when the whole world was getting ready to kill him and the heat for getting eliminated. Dude stepped up, and stepped up BIG.

OKC had durant/westbrook/harden - that's 3 superstar talents + the defensive player of the year and they got spanked.

By what metric are you suggesting "tougher" competition? Last I checked, the thibodeau style defenses common in the nba now that specialize in making it hard for individual scorers to go off weren't exactly common in Jordan's era.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by AdumbGuy

Not sure what you're talking about. These games aren't sustainable. You can't do that in every playoff game. He breaks these games out when they're needed. Against indy last year, he had a 40, 19, 9 game after bosh went out; the 45 point outburst came when the whole world was getting ready to kill him and the heat for getting eliminated. Dude stepped up, and stepped up BIG.

And yet Jordan did. You keep talking about a few big games sprinkled in with a lot of consistently very good games. Jordan was dominant the vast majority of playoff games he played.

OKC had durant/westbrook/harden - that's 3 superstar talents + the defensive player of the year and they got spanked.

I don't think there is a single person that would doubt that Westbrook and Harden and everyone not named Kevin Durant was ice cold for pretty much the entire series. They were unready for the big stage. And that's only one series out of 8. I think most would agree that if the Spurs play their game, it is by a mile the best team they'll see all postseason.

By what metric are you suggesting "tougher" competition? Last I checked, the thibodeau style defenses common in the nba now that specialize in making it hard for individual scorers to go off weren't exactly common in Jordan's era.

By the metric that the Eastern Conference the past 2 years has been absolute dogshit and everybody knows it. And you've got to be kidding me, comparing LeBron's defenders against Jordan's. Jordan played in an era of massive handchecking and squared off regularly against elite defenders like Bryon Russell and Joe Dumars and Gerald Wilkins.

[-King-]

Originally Posted by unnecessary drama

dude LeBron has like 3 all-time great playoff performances in the last two years alone

Kobe Bryant has never done anything like this...that much is certain.

How exactly do you define all time great performances?

[tredadda]

Originally Posted by ARROW2

Oh, the no help thing again...stop...I guess I just imagined seeing Haslem not missing shit.....

And had Lebron not played lights out this entire series, Indiana would have swept the Heat.

[lcarus]

Off-topic, but I hope my Magic draft McLemore. I'm thinking Cleveland will draft Noels, and supposedly Orlando wants to pick between McLemore and Trey Burke. I'm thinking they will go with Mac, since A) Jacque Vaughn is the head coach and B) they locked up Jameer Nelson to a contract.

I hope they pick up Thomas Robinson if Houston lets him go to clear up space for a run at Dwight. That would mean they'd have a starting lineup of Jameer Nelson/Tobias Harris/Ben McLemore/Thomas Robinson/Nikola Vucevic. That's also assuming Big Baby is gone.

/end pointless speculation and hopes about my team nobody here gives a shit about

[AdumbGuy]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

And yet Jordan did. You keep talking about a few big games sprinkled in with a lot of consistently very good games. Jordan was dominant the vast majority of playoff games he played.


I don't think there is a single person that would doubt that Westbrook and Harden and everyone not named Kevin Durant was ice cold for pretty much the entire series. They were unready for the big stage. And that's only one series out of 8. I think most would agree that if the Spurs play their game, it is by a mile the best team they'll see all postseason.


By the metric that the Eastern Conference the past 2 years has been absolute dogshit and everybody knows it. And you've got to be kidding me, comparing LeBron's defenders against Jordan's. Jordan played in an era of massive handchecking and squared off regularly against elite defenders like Bryon Russell and Joe Dumars and Gerald Wilkins.

Talking about the big games, because I don't want to sit here and list every game he had. you said jordan averaged 33 per game. lebron averages 28 and about 1 assist more. By your logic, jordan's consistently dominant play was worth about 3 more points per game? I'm pretty sure Lebron has led his teams in points, assists, and rebounds. He averages nearly a 30 point triple double. What exactly is your definition of dominant at this point?

Did you watch the finals? If not for one boneheaded play at the end, Westbrook's 43 almost won them game 4. This is the same OKC that beat a very very similar spurs team that you just mentioned. Regardless. I'm failing to see how you're discounting Lebron's competition. Like I said, he's gone up against the best defense in the league nearly every year in the playoffs. That detroit team he dropped 48 on wasn't just a good defense, it was one of the most elite defenses in the history of the nba. As for the last two years, best defenses in the nba belonged to... chicago, indiana, boston, and philly, also known as Lebron's playoff opponents.

Yes, they had handchecking in Jordan's era, but they also had nothing like the strong side shading defenses which means the whole team can focus on keeping a guy out of the paint. And yes, handchecking meant some of the stronger guys could basically guide the offensive player where they wanted them to go, but still, with how easy it was to iso, and with the rudimentary double teaming techniques, basically, if you could get by your man, the defense was toast. Those scarce "elite" defenders were nowhere near as effective as the elite team defenses currently in the NBA.

Also, of those three you mentioned, only dumars was an elite defender, russell was just an athletic guy comparable to a richard jefferson, and wilkins was just an unfortunate nickname. Remember who was guarding Jordan during "the shot?" Freak athlete, defensive stalwart, Craig ****ing Ehlo. With a few exceptions, the league was nowhere near as athletic then as it is now.

And I'm not saying this to denigrate what Jordan did, I'm just saying Lebron's clearly in the conversation in a way that nobody else in our generation has been before.

[lcarus]

Comparing Lebron to MJ or any other great is so pointless right now. In the end, they'll all be compared by championships. Lebron's book is still open on that. I seriously doubt he'll end up with 6 or more, but who knows.

[AdumbGuy]

Originally Posted by lcarus

Off-topic, but I hope my Magic draft McLemore. I'm thinking Cleveland will draft Noels, and supposedly Orlando wants to pick between McLemore and Trey Burke. I'm thinking they will go with Mac, since A) Jacque Vaughn is the head coach and B) they locked up Jameer Nelson to a contract.

I hope they pick up Thomas Robinson if Houston lets him go to clear up space for a run at Dwight. That would mean they'd have a starting lineup of Jameer Nelson/Tobias Harris/Ben McLemore/Thomas Robinson/Nikola Vucevic. That's also assuming Big Baby is gone.

/end pointless speculation and hopes about my team nobody here gives a shit about

McLemore reminds me a bit of rudy gay's situation. Lots of tools to work with but disturbing lack of production. Maybe not in a few years, but that lineup looks incredibly underwhelming right now. Tanking for Wiggins?

[Hootie]

I think championships comparison holds more weight in the NBA than it does in the NFL but it's still ridiculous.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

The Cavs should pick Nerlens and sit him for his rookie year. With the strength of the 2014 draft, that would allow him to get completely healthy and give them a better shot at a high pick when there are going to be a ton of studs available.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

The Cavs should pick Nerlens and sit him for his rookie year. With the strength of the 2014 draft, that would allow him to get completely healthy and give them a better shot at a high pick when there are going to be a ton of studs available.

The problem with Noels is he's way too much like Tristan Thompson, who's turning into a very good player. And he's just not good enough to be a "can't miss" prospect.

Their best option is to either trade for a Small Forward or trade down to #3 to get Otto Porter. If they don't find a Small Forward with a 1.1 or 1.3, they won't find one anywhere. Meanwhile at Center, you have a shitload of options at 1.19 (especially if they trade up) and potentially free agent or trade options.

I hate the idea that they're exploring a Demarcus Cousins trade with the 1.1, but a Kevin Love (move Tristan Thompson permanently to Center) or an Al Jefferson trade could make sense, even if both are pipe dreams.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by AdumbGuy

Talking about the big games, because I don't want to sit here and list every game he had. you said jordan averaged 33 per game. lebron averages 28 and about 1 assist more. By your logic, jordan's consistently dominant play was worth about 3 more points per game? I'm pretty sure Lebron has led his teams in points, assists, and rebounds. He averages nearly a 30 point triple double. What exactly is your definition of dominant at this point?

LeBron's series against Indiana has looked Jordan-esque. The last 2 playoffs from LeBron looked like a superstar player playing with a great supporting cast. It was a Paul Pierce or Kobe like dominance, which is not on the same level as MJ dominance. MJ's final PPG was 33. At the peak of his career it was somewhere around 35, which is outrageous for any player. He has a 50% success rate with buzzer beaters. He has a shitload of 40+ and 50+ games on his resume. And he did all this while averaging about 7 Assists, 6-7 Rebounds, and 2 Steals per game. Jordan pretty much played every series in the dominant way LeBron is playing Indiana. If he plays every series like Chicago, that's still excellent, but it's not what compares you to the greatest athlete of all time.

Did you watch the finals? If not for one boneheaded play at the end, Westbrook's 43 almost won them game 4. This is the same OKC that beat a very very similar spurs team that you just mentioned. Regardless. I'm failing to see how you're discounting Lebron's competition. Like I said, he's gone up against the best defense in the league nearly every year in the playoffs. That detroit team he dropped 48 on wasn't just a good defense, it was one of the most elite defenses in the history of the nba. As for the last two years, best defenses in the nba belonged to... chicago, indiana, boston, and philly, also known as Lebron's playoff opponents.

Yes, I did. Miami played excellent, LeBron played excellent, and his role players were unstoppable. Wade and Bosh were superb, and Mike Miller/Battier somehow got red hot. But OKC played absolutely terrible, and it wasn't all because of a suffocating defense. Harden was shooting about 25% on mostly open shots. Apart from 2 games, Westbrook was pretty terrible. The Spurs, to me, are a much better benchmark of the kind of team you want to see the Heat play.

Yes, they had handchecking in Jordan's era, but they also had nothing like the strong side shading defenses which means the whole team can focus on keeping a guy out of the paint. And yes, handchecking meant some of the stronger guys could basically guide the offensive player where they wanted them to go, but still, with how easy it was to iso, and with the rudimentary double teaming techniques, basically, if you could get by your man, the defense was toast. Those scarce "elite" defenders were nowhere near as effective as the elite team defenses currently in the NBA.

Also, of those three you mentioned, only dumars was an elite defender, russell was just an athletic guy comparable to a richard jefferson, and wilkins was just an unfortunate nickname. Remember who was guarding Jordan during "the shot?" Freak athlete, defensive stalwart, Craig ****ing Ehlo. With a few exceptions, the league was nowhere near as athletic then as it is now.

Now you're starting to get ridiculous. 1) Ehlo was a solid defender and "the shot' was a tremendous offensive play. It had little to do with poor defense; 2) hand-checking rules made it very difficult to play Guard in the same way it made it harder to play receiver with tighter pass interference rules; 3) you are completely misinformed if you're going to make the laughable claim that defenses are better today than they were back then. Back then, you had great team defenses because most coaches valued players who could play at least a little defense. The 80's was an elite era for defensive guards. In the 90's, you had absolutely elite defenders guarding Jordan in almost every playoff series. YOu had either John Starks or Gerald Wilkins. Dan Majerle. Clyde Drexler. Gary Payton / Nate McMillan. Joe Dumars. I'm sorry, but most of these guys run circles around Paul George or Jimmy Butler, especially with handchecking rules in place; 4) Bryon Russell was an excellent defender and he got beat, as most players did, on a very well defended play where Jordan made a shot that was just unguardable; 5) Jordan played in one of the most balanced eras in the NBA and a stacked Eastern Conference. Every year, he played the Pat Riley Knicks, the Lenny Wilkens Cavs, the Bad Boy Pistons, and in the finals he squared off against a stacked Jazz team, a stacked Suns team, and the Magic-led Lakers.

And I'm not saying this to denigrate what Jordan did, I'm just saying Lebron's clearly in the conversation in a way that nobody else in our generation has been before.

LeBron is the best of our generation. I've already said that. But he's got a long, long way to be MJ and again, he has to play every series like he has Indiana. It's even more crazy to think about what Jordan could have accomplished if he went straight to the NBA and didn't try out baseball. He could have won 8 in a row.