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View Poll Results: If you had to choose only one of these, which would it be?
Democracy 20 35.09%
Free market capitalism 37 64.91%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-06-2007, 03:03 PM  
jAZ jAZ is offline
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If you were forced to choose between democray and free market capitalism...

... which would it be?

I know it may seem like an odd juxtaposition of beliefs that in this country typically go hand in hand... but I've noticed a trend in discussions lately that caused me to consider the question in this way.

Seems like an interesting discussion.

If you were forced to choose between living in a society defined by democracy (but for instance, the people voted for communism/socialism) or one defined by capitalism (but public policy is dictated by an autocratic government) which would you choose and why?
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Old 06-17-2013, 01:42 PM   #61
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And were you suggesting his thread starting privileges be revoked? Because I thought you were one of the ones suggesting that about CC. Or am I mistaken?
You are mistaken.
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Old 06-17-2013, 02:23 PM   #62
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Free Market Capitalism is a form of democracy.
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Old 06-17-2013, 02:38 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco View Post
Free Market Capitalism is a form of democracy.
In the market, itself, this is true. It is very democratic. ( Just don't say that to a leftist.) But as a form of govt it's another category of thing entirely. Because govt is force.
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Old 06-17-2013, 03:03 PM   #64
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Yes, I know that. As I'm sure Rand Paul knew that when he chose to use "democracy" instead of "Representative Republic" since it was indeed a "Representative Republic" that "Gave Us Jim Crow".
"Us" Well that refers to a collective "we" which implies the federal govt and it was a Progressive named Wilson that brought Jim Crow to DC. But why the obsession with race when we've made such strides? I'll never understand that.

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What he should have said, in order to be precise was "democratically elected representative republic" but Rand shortened it.
In a true democracy, the people make the laws. It is not done by representatives. That was the original meaning of the word and it got changed for political convenience.

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Now that we are all on the same semantic page, appreciating the key distinctions between representative democracy and outright democracy, can we dispense with the side-bars?
No we're not on the same page. Democracy is one of the worst forms of govt because it's not based on rule of law to protect natural rights. They are profligate and full of contention. I think what your saying is the people can vote for things that violate natural rights.

Democracy is not freedom. It's eating lunch with a greater amount of wolves than any other group.

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Jefferson said "democracy" was "nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/9496
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Democracy (in various flavors) is effectively antithetical at a root level to the fully free market capitalism because both are voting mechinisms.
It's "mechanisms"

The free market is a sort of voting mechanism—just NOT in a political or govt sense. It's a private sector vote using ones feet or dollars by not buying. Consumers drive what companies will offer and at what price. That's democratic. Businesses not doing so, go out of business.

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To me they both serve purposes and should exist together in a mixed environment. But and I think most all people feel the same way.
I don't. A mixed economy is less efficient than a free one but having some rules does not make a market unfree either.
But "feeling" is the right word because it's emotion-based due to ignorance of free-market economics courtesy of the progressive movement which lied back in the day and is still lying now.

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I've just never heard anyone but message-board ranters outright question the institution of democracy so boldly.
Well, you're late to the party. Madison and Jefferson did it. Those guys didn't think so highly of "democracy." I've seen some here do it and I've done it plenty of times.

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I'm shocked, actually.
Well, you're a democrat. Not a traditional one because they did believe in free-markets, state's rights, and no central bank. Ya' know classical liberalism. Your party used to be the opposite of the Republican party which was started by Whigs. Now it's not an alternative because it's the party of socialism aka the corporatist kind mixed with the welfare-state and allows for less and less free markets.
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Old 06-17-2013, 03:17 PM   #65
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Oh I'd like to add, I would not want an autocratic govt dictating policy while having a free-market—even if that's an oxymoron.
I would want a free-market, with a constitutionally restrained Federal govt for the most part and even in the states.
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Old 06-17-2013, 05:02 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
It's "mechanisms"

The free market is a sort of voting mechanism—just NOT in a political or govt sense. It's a private sector vote using ones feet or dollars by not buying. Consumers drive what companies will offer and at what price. That's democratic. Businesses not doing so, go out of business.
For me, this is the heart of this thread and discussion. There is an inherent conflict between the 1-man-1-vote decision process and the 1-man-as-many-votes-as-you-have-dollars decision process.

Much of what we debate in politics is about where we want the line drawn between these 2 mechanisms of group decision making. As an example that has been discussed here over the years, some have made the point that slavery and civil rights issues were better left to the free market forces. As to avoid the "some people say" problem, and not to single him out, I recall TJ articulating this point (if not specifically saying he opposed the laws and wars). This is one of the earliest memories I have of talking to TJ, so I'm going back into the cobwebs on this one. So please, TJ, correct my recollection on this if necessary.
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Old 06-17-2013, 07:45 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by jAZ View Post
For me, this is the heart of this thread and discussion. There is an inherent conflict between the 1-man-1-vote decision process and the 1-man-as-many-votes-as-you-have-dollars decision process.

Much of what we debate in politics is about where we want the line drawn between these 2 mechanisms of group decision making.
Where I disagree is that there are only these two choices. It's have vs have-nots or class warfare leaning argument.

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As an example that has been discussed here over the years, some have made the point that slavery and civil rights issues were better left to the free market forces.
No not on slavery...just that slavery wouldn't have lasted because it ended with the stroke of a pen in just about every country except here. So Americans slaughtering one another over it was not necessary. At least that's my stand as well as many of the Rothbardian libertarians. However this point was due to a change in ideas in the world. Ideas do change things — not just markets. They are more powerful than bullets at times. Markets forces eventually would have ended slavery but much later. Actually, it was dying out before the cotton gin was invented, which as a market force increased the need for slave labor to feed the gins. So it increased again for awhile.

The argument on civil rights being handled by market forces is when selling and buying is involved. There were businesses that wanted to desegregate, it was state govts that forced it via law.

I don't see what any of these arguments have to do with democracy though. Slavery violates natural rights, but was allowed in the original Constitution or there would never have been one. As the 19th century wore in it was being done away with in other countries peacefully. It was done using compensated emancipation.

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As to avoid the "some people say" problem, and not to single him out, I recall TJ articulating this point (if not specifically saying he opposed the laws and wars). This is one of the earliest memories I have of talking to TJ, so I'm going back into the cobwebs on this one. So please, TJ, correct my recollection on this if necessary.
I don't recall and it may have preceded me. However, I think you have some omitted understandings in those arguments. I am familiar with libertarian claims.
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Old 06-17-2013, 08:29 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Where I disagree is that there are only these two choices. It's have vs have-nots or class warfare leaning argument.
No one is saying that there are only two choices. There are lots of choices along the spectrum. But as I've pointed out before, these two approaches to decision making do lie along the ends of a continuum where democracy is at one end and capitalism is on the other end.

It might be an uncomfortable realization, but that doesn't make it any less real.

We as citizens make decisions about which issues we leave to the forces of the free market system and which we seek to have direct control over via our democracy. (And for the record, when I use that term, I mean it to describe our democratically elected representative republic system. You are welcome to declare and use another term of your own choosing)

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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
No not on slavery...just that slavery wouldn't have lasted because it ended with the stroke of a pen in just about every country except here. So Americans slaughtering one another over it was not necessary. At least that's my stand as well as many of the Rothbardian libertarians. However this point was due to a change in ideas in the world. Ideas do change things — not just markets. They are more powerful than bullets at times.
As much as I like ideas, they are just that. There has to be a mechanism to deliver the change. The idea of abolishing slavery existed at the time of the writing of the constitution. But those ideas didn't have a MEANS to make the change except through acts of civil disobedience like the underground railroad, legislation, war, or market forces. Among those, market forces are effectively the weakest which is why, as you say, they would have taken the longest.

Democracy (via government regulatory policy) is a powerful force and in the case of slavery, it was used powerfully for good. It can clearly move timelines as well as policy, and break through during the times when markets fail. And slavery is clearly an example where markets failed enormously.
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Old 06-18-2013, 06:47 AM   #69
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There has to be a mechanism to deliver the change. The idea of abolishing slavery existed at the time of the writing of the constitution. But those ideas didn't have a MEANS to make the change except through acts of civil disobedience like the underground railroad, legislation, war, or market forces. Among those, market forces are effectively the weakest
Slavery in Brazil ended peacefully in 1890, exclusively because of market forces.

Look around the planet and see where slavery still exists--- There is a complete abscence of free market enterprise.
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Old 06-18-2013, 06:53 AM   #70
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Look around the planet and see where slavery still exists--- There is a complete abscence of free market enterprise.
Yeah, that's because there's different kinds of slavery.
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Old 06-18-2013, 07:24 AM   #71
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You are mistaken.
Oh right. It was just that you wanted "C) Lock him from all threads but his very own "Look what I just dug out of my ass" thread."

Did you want the same for Wickedson? Just curious because you seem dead set on any kind of partisan double standards.
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Old 06-18-2013, 08:41 AM   #72
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Old 06-18-2013, 08:42 AM   #73
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No, you guys prefer to the "pile on bitch and moan sans banning." Others just prefer banning so we don't have to bitch again a few months later.
Why don't you go crawl back under your rock? You have no credibility or integrity. Nobody wants to read your lies and bullshit.
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:13 AM   #74
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FWIW,

A) CC was bumping old threads with posts that were totally unrelated to the OP (i.e. bumping a "teacher who loves Obama" thread with an article about a gay man who was assaulted)

B) jAZ said why he was bumping this (even though he didn't need to as his post was obviously related to the OP)

C) jAZ hasn't been doing this multiple times per day for a week.

It's not a double standard when these two's behavior is hardly similar.

Lastly, just as you said, there's outcry on both sides. When Direkshun & Wickedson post things the right doesn't like, there are those that shoot the messenger, same goes for idiots like CC & Pete.
hey whiny guy- why don't you just ignore it?
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:23 AM   #75
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There are several issues on which I agree with Ron Paul, there are several issues on which I disagree with him. I agree with his sentiment on this one. Democracy doesn't work. That's why we don't use it in America.
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