Quiz: how much money has Stairway to Heaven made in royalty payments?

[Rain Man]

It's the honor system. Make your guess and then check out the number from this article about the Taurus lawsuit: http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/15/medi...ial/index.html

Spoiler!

Condé Nast Portfolio estimated in 2008 that "Stairway to Heaven" had earned more than $562 million in publishing royalties and record sales since it's 1971 release.

And recognize that that number is nine years old. The song was released in 1971, so $562 million only covers 37 years of its 45 year history.

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

http://consequenceofsound.net/2015/0...usic-industry/

A month ago, news came that revenue from streaming services had surpassed CD sales for the first time in history. Now, The Wall Street Journal is reporting that after securing $400 million in fresh funding, Spotify is now worth more than the entire US recorded music industry.

The deal pushed the streaming service up to a net value of $8.4 billion, more than double that of its nearest competitor Pandora, which sits at around $3.5 billion. According to the Recording Industry Association of America, the revenue of the entire industry as of 2014 was $6.97 billion, which accounts for physical sales, digital purchases, and yes, streaming.

Streaming income, which includes paid subscriptions and ad earnings, accounted for 27% of the recorded music industry’s $6.97 billion earnings. Yet Spotify, just one company that makes up that percentage, is actually worth more than every single US retail music revenue source combined. Given, Spotify is an international company, but either way the math is fascinating.

Of course, the data is actually comparing two different things, in that one is value (Spotify’s 8.4 billion) and the other is revenue (RIAA’s $6.97 billion). The thing is, valuation is determined by an estimate of future profits, but Spotify has never actually turned a profit. Essentially, the report is suggesting that with the way things are trending, the US music industry’s valuation could eventually equal its revenue, with Spotify being more valuable overall.

In the good news column, the 25% increase in streaming revenue more than offset the 8.7% drop in permanent digital download sales. So while the industry as a whole has remained pretty stagnant for the last five years (there was a 0.5% drop from 2013 to 2014), at least it’s not getting much worse.

Ah, valuation. Still, I had no idea. The times they are a changin'.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by vailpass

Ah, valuation. Still, I had no idea. The times they are a changin'.

That's why the record companies have invested as much as 20% in the past few years.

It's really scary for artists and composers, however.

[Rain Man]

Have we figured out yet what Page's hourly rate was for composing it?

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

Have we figured out yet what Page's hourly rate was for composing it?

How quickly did he and Plant compose the song?

$56k in mechanical publishing royalties divided by time would equal the hourly rate.

Page could have created the structure of the song in two minutes or two days or two weeks or two months. The lyrics might have come that quickly or taken months.

Edit: According to Wiki, it took Page a long period of time to write the song, which first began in 1970.

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

How quickly did he and Plant compose the song?

$56k in mechanical publishing royalties divided by time would equal the hourly rate.

Page could have created the structure of the song in two minutes or two days or two weeks or two months. The lyrics might have come that quickly or taken months.

Edit: According to Wiki, it took Page a long period of time to write the song, which first began in 1970.

Hmm, let's make a guess. First, let's assume that Led Zeppelin was a 50 hour a week gig for Page. You want to be good, you're not clocking out at 40 hours.

Now, they were touring in 1970, so that took some time, along with promotions and other activities. Let's assume that perhaps they were spending half their time, 25 hours a week, working on Led Zeppelin IV.

Led Zeppelin IV has eight songs, but about one-sixth of the running time is Stairway to Heaven. 25 hours per week x 52 weeks = 1,300 hours of Page's labor, so I would estimate perhaps 220 hours on Stairway.

So his base fee would be $56,000/220 hours, or $255 per hour. However, those 220 hours produced a whole lot of high-rate income since he makes money every time the song is played now even though he's not having to get up there with a guitar and play it.

I think his time on this is worth far more than $255 per hour. I think it should also include a significant share of his residuals because that money is rewarding both his playing and his composing.

[lawrenceRaider]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

The Performing Rights Organizations collect money of behalf of composers in the United States. BMI, ASCAP and SESAC are all non-profit organizations. They collect money from radio airplay, restaurant, nightclub and gym airplay along with television airplay. They pay out 97% of all revenues collected.

Spotify is a completely different beast. They're For Profit and due to loopholes in our laws, are granted a Compulsory License in which they can choose to pay whatever they want to pay composers and artists. The same goes for iHeartRadio, Pandora, etc.

When Spotify, a company that owns nothing, is valued at more than the entire music business, something is wrong.

While good information. It still does nothing to address my original point and question. What does an artist get paid for each time a song is played on radio?

So only the song writer gets paid in the US for radio plays. That's horse crap. Still, makes it even more pointless for the whining about streaming royalties.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by lawrenceRaider

While good information. It still does nothing to address my original point and question. What does an artist get paid for each time a song is played on radio?

My apologies, I didn't see your question.

In the United States, Artists do not receive compensation for Radio Play, only the composers.

Outside the US, Artists receive compensation.

[Otter]

$100 million

Never understood the appeal of that song for the record.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

I think his time on this is worth far more than $255 per hour. I think it should also include a significant share of his residuals because that money is rewarding both his playing and his composing.

As I explained earlier, the "Artist" (in this case Led Zepplin, which consisted of four members) would receive compensation from the record company, which is generally 14% of retail price. That 14% is then split among the four members, their management, lawyer(s), etc. so in the end, it's quite a paltry number.

Since the Stat Rate in 1971 was 2 cents, the songwriter's share of publishing income (i.e., mechanical album and single sales) would have been .015 cents per song, which in this case would have been shared 50/50 with Robert Plant, so Page's share would have been .0075 per unit sale.

The Performance Income, which is income from radio play, restaurants, bars, gyms, etc. would have risen over the years with inflation, advertising spending, etc. and so on. Since those statements aren't accessible, it's really difficult to ascertain just how much money Stairway To Heaven has earned since it's release. As I mentioned earlier, I find it extremely hard to believe that it's earned $10 million per year, which is the figure it would have needed to earn to reach the different between the total album sales and the number provided in the article that was linked. I was at Uni when Alanis sold 28 million records, with her song was blasting on the radio in heavy rotation for years and never saw anything near that number. It was closer to $800k for a year, no where near $10 million.

For perspective, in the Film & TV world, we're generally paid to compose Per Music Minute. That fee can vary anywhere from $100 Dollars Per Music Minute to John Williams & Hans Zimmer's $5,000 Per Music Minute. We receive Performance Income from Local, Cable and OTA airings, Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, et al but generally speaking, no money from radio. Even Radio pays zero money for commercial advertising, so the only money I see when licensing music for a Radio Ad spot is the initial Sync Fee.

Anyway, it's difficult to put a dollar value on Page & Plants per hourly rate for creating Stairway To Heaven. Maybe with this information, you're able to put together a formula that works.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by lawrenceRaider

While good information. It still does nothing to address my original point and question. What does an artist get paid for each time a song is played on radio?

So only the song writer gets paid in the US for radio plays. That's horse crap. Still, makes it even more pointless for the whining about streaming royalties.

It does not make it "pointless". I don't know why you can't understand this from the perspective of the composer or artist but whether it's .0004 cents per play or .0002 cents per play, the creators are not earning a fair value.

If One Million people purchased a song at .99 cents, the Artist would receive 14 cents for the download (Mechanical Sale) and 6.83 cents from their Co-Publishing Share.

That's a total of 20.83 cents per purchase. Conversely, it's .0002 to .0004 per stream.

Please explain how that's even remotely fair or the same.

[lawrenceRaider]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

It does not make it "pointless". I don't know why you can't understand this from the perspective of the composer or artist but whether it's .0004 cents per play or .0002 cents per play, the creators are not earning a fair value.

If One Million people purchased a song at .99 cents, the Artist would receive 14 cents for the download (Mechanical Sale) and 6.83 cents from their Co-Publishing Share.

That's a total of 20.83 cents per purchase. Conversely, it's .0002 to .0004 per stream.

Please explain how that's even remotely fair or the same.

How long do I own the song after I purchase it? How many times will I listen to the song if it's one of my favorites?

I don't use Spotify, so perhaps it is just like owning a song. If so, then I can get not being happy about it. Pandora, which I use nearly exclusively for streaming, plays a pretty wide range of tunes and is much more like radio, but much better as I actually get to listen to new artists and create new stations based on those artists which helps me find other new artists. Then those artists that I like best get additional sales (because I actually go buy their CD) they never would have because I would never have heard of them without streaming.

Also, you still haven't answered the question, which is how much is earned for each radio play. Even if it's only to the songwriter, they get paid something. Even if artists were paid for terrestrial radio like they are internet radio, the per person listening amount wouldn't be much different than streaming. Which is my whole point, and you as usual are completely avoiding addressing because it doesn't match up with your view.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by lawrenceRaider

How long do I own the song after I purchase it? How many times will I listen to the song if it's one of my favorites?

First off, let me say, you're completely out of your depth and have ZERO understanding. ZERO.

YOU don't OWN a song that you've purchased. You own a Mechanical copy of a song. The Record Company owns the Master Recording and the Publishing Company owns the rights to all publishing, whether it's the Mechanical Recording or Print Music or Performance. The copyright is owned by the Publishing Company.

People that purchase albums, Mp3's or any other type of mechanical recording only have the right to listen at will. You don't have the right to sell or license it for Film or TV and you don't have the right to make copies and distribute them for sale.

Originally Posted by lawrenceRaider

I don't use Spotify, so perhaps it is just like owning a song. If so, then I can get not being happy about it. Pandora, which I use nearly exclusively for streaming, plays a pretty wide range of tunes and is much more like radio, but much better as I actually get to listen to new artists and create new stations based on those artists which helps me find other new artists.

No, it's a Streaming Service just like Spotify. Pandora has felt the wrath of the music industry recently because they're paying even less than Spotify and recently settled and paid $90 million to various record companies

Originally Posted by lawrenceRaider

Also, you still haven't answered the question, which is how much is earned for each radio play. Even if it's only to the songwriter, they get paid something.

You're accusing me of not answering your questions?



I'll accuse you of poor reading comprehension.

As to the answer to your question, it's a very complicated process that includes surveys, Billboard charts, demographics, etc. Not every song is paid equally across the board like Mechanical Record sales.

If you want more information as to how composers are paid for radio play, visit ASCAP.com, BMI.com and SESAC.com.

Originally Posted by lawrenceRaider

Even if artists were paid for terrestrial radio like they are internet radio, the per person listening amount wouldn't be much different than streaming. Which is my whole point, and you as usual are completely avoiding addressing because it doesn't match up with your view.

Again, you're missing the point altogether. Album sales and single sales are DOWN from a decade ago. Artist no longer sell in the millions or tens of millions due to Streaming. Streaming has replaced the Mechanical Sale AND the Performance income.

And if you're so certain that Streaming = Mechanical Sales + Performance Royalties, why don't you provide the math that proves it?

I have and it doesn't prove it. How can you say that 20 cents equals .0002 or .0004 and that's BEFORE any Performance Royalties?

[RobBlake]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Here's the real deal about Spotify: They don't pay artists equally. More importantly (and something that is mostly unknown) is that the Major Labels own 20% of Spotify.

Now, while Spotify may state that they paid out $300 million, that figure includes the Master License Fee, which could be anywhere from $100 dollars per song to $100,000 per song. Artists and songwriters don't see that money from streaming services. That goes directly to the record label, as they own the Master Recordings.

That's just another reason why people like Tom Petty have long lobbied for the reversion of the Master Recordings to the Artist after a period of 15 years.

This shit makes me wanna give up

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by RobBlake

This shit makes me wanna give up

Go into Production Library, Trailer or Score.

Don't waste your time trying to be a rock star.

Those no longer exist.

[DaneMcCloud]

Okay, as I had assumed, the revenues reported by the article in the OP are extremely overstated.

http://www.billboard.com/biz/article...source=twitter

Michael Einhorn told jurors in federal court in Los Angeles that songwriters Jimmy Page and Robert Plant have received $58.5 million since 2011 for dozens of works, including “Stairway,” their band’s 1971 hit and most recognizable song.

---

Even if we extrapolate that figure over the course of 37 years, it equals $440 million dollars, which is far shy from the $575 million stated in the OP article, which supposedly was for Stairway only.

Add to that, I can certainly guarantee that the majority of Zeppelin's overall royalty and album sales earnings were garnered in the past 15 years, not the first 22, with the bulk coming from the remasters. As I mentioned earlier, Statutory Rate for an album released in 1971 was 2 cents per song whereas an album released in 2007 would have paid 9.1 cents per song. It's likely that they negotiated a much higher percentage than the 14% earned from each unit sale in 1971, probably 21% or more, which is generally allocated to "Superstar" acts.

I'd approximate that the band earned $10.5 million from the sale of Motherload (5 million copies times $9.99 times a 21% royalty rate) while the album overall earned nearly $50 million.

Zeppelin didn't allow their music to be used in Film & TV early in their career, with Cameron Crowe's film Almost Famous, the first allowed to do so. They earned tens of millions for the Cadillac advertising campaign and apparently, a minimum of $10 million in sync fees in the past few years.

I would estimate that their overall career earnings from mechanical and performance income is closer to $275-350 million, which is still a staggering number but no where near the $575 million reportedly for a single song.