Wesley's hit

[Chiefnj]

Were the referee's just trying to protect the golden boy Rams by throwing the flag on that play? The ball was still in the air when Wesley lowered the boom on Holt. Don't all safeties lead with their heads on tackles? I read at the Star that the league may fine Wesley also. I don't think it was a dirty hit, but then again I am biased.

[TEX]

Nj,
You are CORRECT! It was a HARD HIT. It's the way that football is MEANT to be played. I'll take that type of flag ANY DAY! It was a CLEAN hit - the same type of hit that used to happen on ANY given Sunday about 15 years ago!

[DanT]

That was a good call. You're not supposed to lead with your head like that. I want Wesley on my team for many years to come, not in Miami getting or receiving flowers for a spinal-cord injury victim.

[Brock]

Wesley probably could have and should have pulled up. That said, if you want to set the tone for how your defense is going to play, I'd rather it be TOO aggressive rather than not agressive enough.

[DanT]

The call that I didn't like was on Hicks for roughing the passer. Warner's quickly-released toss didn't have a chance of being completed and Hicks was already bearing down on him before the pass had been released. To me, that's the same situation that motivates the "intentional grounding" penalty; I don't think there should be a "roughing-the-passer" call against a player that's bearing down on a guy who ends up making a lousy pass--not unless that player cheapshots the QB, which Hicks did not do.

[Chiefnj]

My problem with the call is that the ball bounced off of someone's hands and was still in the air when Wesley hit him. I say if the ball is still in the air, near the receiver, you should have the right to hit the receiver to ensure he doesn't make a juggling catch.

I still think all of the whining that the Rams did all week about late hits had an effect on the refs.

[bkkcoh]

I sure thought Warner should have been called for grounding on that one play down around thier goal-line. It sure seemed like he was with-in the tackles and we all know he threw it away to prevent the sack.. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/wink.gif



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bk

[DanT]

It's definitely OK to bop the receiver; you just can't do it with your head. I called the penalty right when it happened, that's how obvious it was (I'm a homeristic Chiefs fan who loves Wesley and the hits that he puts on folks, not someone who tries to spot penalties that should be called). Still, you're not supposed to lead with your head, and that's what Wesley did. He might end up getting fined for that play.

[mlyonsd]

I can't recall the last time I saw a safety get called for leading with his head. The ball and player were both still in bounds.

On the Warner grounding, if it's the play I remember Warner actually ran outside of the tackles quite a distance before running back to the middle of the field. As long as he ran outside the tackles during the play he can throw it anywhere. Should have tossed it to a fan though.

[DanT]

mlyonsd is correct on that "grounding" noncall. There's an official in the backfield that was watching for Warner to go outside the tackles. Warner eventually does go outside the tackles and then comes back. When he first goes outside the tackles, you can almost see by the official's body language that the possibility of an intentional grounding call has ended--the official actually repositions himself.

[mlyonsd]

I have a question....

I still don't understand the play that Grbac got hurt on. The Rams challenged the play, it was called a fumble, but the Chiefs then kicked on 4th down.

It looked to me on the replay that a Ram recovered the ball. Am I smoking something here?

[BIG_DADDY]

Wesley is kicking some serious a** out there right now. I REALLY like this kid and he will be the reason receivers drop the ball when they hear footsteps. The whole reason you pick up someone like him is so he will crush people. GOOD JOB WESLEY - KEEP IT UP!!!!

[DanT]

mlyonsd,

There wasn't a fumble on Grbac's last play: the officials ruled that he had tossed an incomplete forward pass. It's a judgement call that basically amounts to whether Grbac's arm was going forward at the time the ball got knocked out.

[mlyonsd]

Thanks for the explanation. I thought I heard the ref announce it was a fumble. Had a house full of people and couldn't hear everything on TV.

[DanT]

Hey mlyonsd,

I might be wrong. I saw the game in a noisy sports bar and am only guessing at what happened. Gunther was asked about the play in his postgame press conference: maybe you and the press heard the same thing--that the refs originally ruled that there was a fumble. If so, there should have been some kind of explanation for why they changed. To me, based strictly on what I saw on TV (and not what I heard), it looked like an incomplete forward pass.

[mlyonsd]

The ball went forward with enough velocity to think his arm was going forward although from the replay it was questionable.

[G_Man]

I loved the Wesley hit and think it was horrible to penalize it. If it was for leading with the head, where was the call on Brown for his hit on Key$hawn last Thursday? I see lots of head-to-head hits that aren't called. I'll take a penalty for that any time. I'm glad we have two guys back there that can lay the wood from the safety position. If Wesley had just pushed him out of bounds I would have been disappointed. Make a statement!

As for the Grbac fumble, I thought it was an incomplete pass, but the call was a fumble ruled down by whistle (although the announcers didn't hear any whistle). The ball was fumbled apparently, and the whistle was blown before anyone recovered. Therefore, with the play called a fumble stopped before recovery, they gave it to the offense. This was my interpretation. I just thought it was an incompletion, and I have a list of Rams non-calls if anyone wants to dispute. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

[G_Man]

And I like his attitude:

"I'm not a dirty player," he said. "I'm just trying to make plays. I didn't think I hit him high. I just tried to come in with a good lick. If that happens, so be it. There will be more paychecks."


[This message has been edited by G_Man (edited 10-23-2000).]

[hawaiianboy]

I thought both the personal foul calls on Wesley and Hicks were bad calls. The refs did rule that Grbac fumbled the ball as they marked the ball at the point of contact. Why KC got to punt the ball rather than the Rams take over at the spot of the recovery is beyond me. Mute pont though, KC could score at will.

[mlyonsd]

Thanks JQ, I thought something was fishy about it.

[HC_Chief]

Chifnj hit the nail on the head with post #5! the ball was tipped; therefore, the receiver was fair game! However, I think the flag was for hitting with the crown of the helmet - NOT PI.

The Hicks hit was NOT roughing the passer - it was a blatent B.S. 'oh, they've been hitting our QB too much recently' whiner call. Oh well, the refs made up for it by letting us punt (on an 'inadvertant whistle' call), rather than giving the Rams the ball on our 30. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Mosbonian]

JQ:

I watched the Raider/Hawks game yesterday and was pretty impressed that Oaktown didn't come out flat after beating the Chiefs, and given their history of not playing well at home.

I will have to admit that Wheatley's attempt to imitate Gonzalez was pretty hilarious. And I thought I couldn't jump!!

Gannon threw a lot more of those side-arm passes yesterday than normal. Those are going stop being effective before too long, cause somebody is going to catch on.

BTW, how is it that you guys are the only one in the West who doesn't get to play the Rams? It would be interesting to see how your DB's would fair against the Lambs "vaunted" passing attack.

mmaddog
*************

[BroncoFan]

Is there any question about what happened? Are you guys crazy?

Ofcourse the ball was already touched, and yes everyone knows that after a ball is tipped you can hit the receiver. BUT, regardless of any situation on the field you cannot use your helmet as a weapon. When I saw the replay I could not believe my eyes. I would be willing to bet that Wesley receives a pretty heavy fine for that hit. I could not believe that the receiver could even get up after that hit.

That said, there was something weird about that play, and I do have a question. There were 2 flags on the play, pass interference AND a personal foul. I know that personal fouls are tacked onto the end of the play in nearly all situations. Why was the pass interference call declined? Why did the Rams not get both? Why did they not get both the pass interfence call with the personal foul tacked on? Is there something that I am missing here?

[BroncoFan]

mlyonsd,

About the Grbac fumble. I have seen some different posts here, so I will try to clear it up.

Grbac's pass was originaly ruled an incomplete pass. That being the case, the official blew his whistle on the field when the ball hit the ground (although even the announcers did not hear it). The play was then challenged by the Rams, and the replay showed that his arm was NOT moving forward, so they overruled the call on the field, and said that it was a fumble. NOW, the Rams had recovered what was NOW a fumble instead of an incomplete pass, BUT because the officials had blown the whistle before the Rams had recovered (Pretty rediculous), it was a dead ball. So the Chiefs would keep possesion. If the whistle really did blow, you cannot penalize a team for NOT going after a lose ball... the whistle had blown, the play was dead, the Chief players might have heard it and not gone after the ball.

Bad situation, very bad call.

[mlyonsd]

BF, thanks for clearing up the fumble. You are right, bad deal all the way around.

I didn't get the declined PI call either. I thought the personal foul should have been tacked on as well.

[hawaiianboy]

Broncfan... the personal foul call wold only be tacked on if it were a dead ball foul... since it wasn't the offense gets to choose which foul they accept.

maddog... LOL, For whatever reason we don't play the Rams I'll take it... besides I don't remember an KC fans asking me about schedules last year when we got the toughest on ever handed out based on won/loss %...
As for Gannon... he doesn't throw the prettiest ball but he gets the job done... I think him going sidearm yesterday may have had something to do with that wind that was gusting.

[BroncoFan]

One more thing, I don't wan't you Chief fans to get the wrong idea about my posts here. I am questioning some of these calls here, but I do not think that these are why the Rams lost the game. Chiefs won, they played better football on both sides of the ball. They should have won.

[KCTitus]

BF: I think because the PF was not a dead ball foul, it occurred during the play. Had the PF been after the play was blown dead then St. Louis could have had both penalties.

On the fumble, you are correct, the whistle did blow. It's natural that the Ref would have blown the whistle if he believed that the pass was incomplete to stop the action around the QB. Granted it was a quick whistle, but apparently the linemen heard it because everyone pretty much stopped on the play.

I think that referee is the best one of the bunch, Mike Carey?, I never can remember his name.

[BroncoFan]

hawaiianboy, KCTitus

I don't think you mean dead ball foul do you? Ruffing the passer is not a dead ball foul, but it is tacked onto the end of the play.

[This message has been edited by BroncoFan (edited 10-23-2000).]

[hawaiianboy]

BF...
Good point... now I'm confused...

I think no one heard that whistle because Grbac screamed when he got hit.

[BroncoFan]

hawaiianboy, Titus

I think the problem is that you cannot accept 2 penalties on one play. If there is a ruffing the passer penalty on the play, and no other penalty the yards are tacked onto the end, the penalty is accepted. If there is a ruffing the passer penalty, in addition to another penalty, you might have to choose between the two penalties, not being able to accept both.

Another problem with this play might be the combination of these specific penalties. The nature of a pass interference penalty(determining where the ball is placed by where the foul was commited) combined with a personal foul DURING the play might force a team to select one of the penalties but not both.

[This message has been edited by BroncoFan (edited 10-23-2000).]

[Cormac]

jq,

That was funny! http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[DanT]

That doesn't seem fair at all, to not those tack the two penalties together. I thought the reason the NFL gives the offense the yardage on a PI call was that they might have earned those yards via a completion but for the interference. The point of penalizing a defender for leading with the helmet is to punish a defender for leading with the helmet. Those are two separate issues. Hell, if the NFL is not going to combine the two penalties, what's to stop DBs from spearing a receiver after the receiver has been interfered with?

Almost all rules in sports have an appealing logic and fairness underlying them. I don't see the logic and fairness in how the rules apply to this case.

[DanT]

Of course, I also don't see the logic and fairness to the NCAA's pass interference penalty. I feel that the offense should get the ball at a spot near where an uninterfered-with receiver could have caught the ball, the way the NFL does it. How many yards from the line of scrimmage does the NCAA give--just 10 or 15, right? What kind of nonsense is that? That's like telling a batter who has been interfered with by the catcher that you won't give him first base but you won't count the swing as a strike, either. Gee, thanks.

[Mosbonian]

BroncoFan:

There wasn't any "Roughing The Passer" call on Wesley's play, he was tagged for

[Mosbonian]

Let me try this again...

BroncoFan:

There was 2 fouls committed on a continuous action play, so only one penalty can be accepted. Usually the penalty with the most yardage is accepted automatically and the other is considered declined.

mmaddog
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[Joe Seahawk]

Hey guys, I happened to catch Martz's press conference today on ESPN NEWS, Mark is exactly right. The PI call would have placed the ball 1 yard less then the PF call, therefore they declined the pi call.

Martz also said it was the best officiated game he has ever been involved in... interesting no?

I thought the call on Hicks was bad, other than that they did a good job. Also the Hicks injury was NOT a cheap shot at all IMO, just an unfortunate football play (for him)...observations from an unbiased POV....Joe

[morphius]

I would like to add something about the announcers not hearing the whistle on the Grbac fumble, they ran that play pretty long and even after the recovery of the fumble you could not hear a whistle being blown, even though the guy was obviously down by contact. Just something I had throw out there.