Why do we have trouble drafting WRs ?

[chief2000]

Any ideas ?

Carls weakness is offensive personel ? He could never find a young qb also.

[oaklandhater]

Becuase we think that wide recivers dont need to be drafted In the 1st

[JBucc]

Because we draft the ones that suck

[oaklandhater]

Because we draft the ones that suck

Becuase We refuse to draft a wideout in the 1st or 2nd round's

[Sully]

Last time we drafted a round one WR, we drafted some unknown because Gunther liked how he was built, rather than his actual production. Gunther was in the "Big recievers dominate" mode, so drafting a tall Morris made sense to him. Otherwise, we just take flyers, typically far enough down the draft so that no one notices we really have no idea how to scout them.

I think, though, WRs have to be one of the most hit and miss prospects in any draft. They rarely produce in year one, and many times, the ones to really excell are drafted in later rounds, and suprise folks.

[Wile_E_Coyote]

when was the last time they picked up a great WR in FA?

[DaneMcCloud]

It's not just the Chiefs, it's every team in the NFL. Wide receiver is one of the most difficult positions to project in the NFL. For most teams, it takes a minimum of three years to develop a first or second round receiver (if ever), let alone a third, fourth or fifth.

Take a look at the draft history of most NFL teams and they're littered but WR busts.

[Cormac]

Last time we drafted a round one WR, we drafted some unknown because Gunther liked how he was built, rather than his actual production. Gunther was in the "Big recievers dominate" mode, so drafting a tall Morris made sense to him.

Morris was on his way to being a good WR, IMO. His route running as a rookie was horrible and he was still the leading rookie WR. He was a good pick, IMO, it just didn't work out with injuries.


I think, though, WRs have to be one of the most hit and miss prospects in any draft. They rarely produce in year one, and many times, the ones to really excell are drafted in later rounds, and suprise folks.

Exactly. Drafting WRs is tough. For every Randy Moss, there is a ton of flops like Rashaun Woods or Marcus Nash :D, or injured players like Morris, Yatil Green etc.

For years, WR and QB were neglected positions by the Chiefs, compared to O-line and defense. Not much effort was put into getting WRs. Then when big moves were made in FA, some worked (Kennison) and others didn't (Morton).

[RealSNR]

Last time we drafted a round one WR, we drafted some unknown because Gunther liked how he was built, rather than his actual production. Gunther was in the "Big recievers dominate" mode, so drafting a tall Morris made sense to him. Otherwise, we just take flyers, typically far enough down the draft so that no one notices we really have no idea how to scout them.

I think, though, WRs have to be one of the most hit and miss prospects in any draft. They rarely produce in year one, and many times, the ones to really excell are drafted in later rounds, and suprise folks.Morris could have been good. We'll never know

[DaneMcCloud]

J.J. Birden, Andre Rison, Derrick Alexander and Eddie Kennison are all examples of good free agent aquisitions at the WR position. Morton had a couple of decent years and a couple of bad years, but he was obviously at the end of his career (as were all the other signees).

It would help if the Chiefs would maintain a consistent offensive philosophy through the years, which seems to be happening now. But changing offensive coordinators every other year is not conducive to drafting and developing players to fit a certain need or style.

[oaklandhater]

the ones to really excell are drafted in later rounds, and suprise folks.

tell that to

Randy Moss 1st round (21st pick)
Terrell Owens 3rd round (28th pick)
marvin harrison 1st round (19th overall
Chad Johnson Round:2 Pick:5
Steve Smith Round:3 Pick:12
Hines Ward 3rd round, #98 overall
Santana Moss first round (16th overall)
Javon Walker With 1st Round Pick (20 Overall)

all of them 1st day draft picks most of the in the 1st round!

[Basileus777]

tell that to

Randy Moss 1st
Terrell Owens 1st
marvin harrison1st
Chad Johnson 1st
Steve Smith 3rd
Hines Ward 3rd
Torry Holt 1st
Santana Moss 1st

all of them 1st day draft picks most of the in the 1st round!

TO wasn't a first rounder, I believe he was a third.

[penguinz]

It is pointless to draft a WR with a high pick when Herm is going to change the Offense so that we are running it on every down.

[penguinz]

TO wasn't a first rounder, I believe he was a third.
Correct

[JBucc]

TO wasn't a first rounder, I believe he was a third.Chad Johnson was a second rounder too

[oaklandhater]

some good 2nd day Wideouts


Joe Horn 5th
Derrick Mason 4th round (98th overall)
Donald Driver 7th round (213th overall)
Torry Holt 137th overall

alot less success in the later rounds.

[Basileus777]

some good 2nd day Wideouts

Javon Walker 8th
Joe Horn 5th
Derrick Mason 6th
Donald Driver 7th


alot less success in the later rounds

Javon Walker was a first rounder.

[oaklandhater]

TO wasn't a first rounder, I believe he was a third.

Was useing a crap site fixing them right now

[chief2000]

Gunthers draft picks - Wr Morris , Safety Bartee ?

Maybe Gunther was part of the problem.

Don't let coaches make picks unless the coach is JJ or Parcells.

[cdcox]

Drafting WR and QB is a crap shoot. Even in the first round, your chances of getting a star are about 1 in 3. The Chiefs have NEVER drafted a QB that turned into a regular consistent starter for them. WR they have done a little better (Otis Taylor, Henry Marshall) but not in recent years.
Even Stephan Paige was a rookie free agent for KC, undrafted in 12 rounds. We let Joe Horn go just as he was finally developing.

WR and QB are the hardest positions to project into the pros, no doubt.

[Sully]

tell that to

Randy Moss 1st round (21st pick)
Terrell Owens 3rd round (28th pick)
marvin harrison 1st round (19th overall
Chad Johnson Round:2 Pick:5
Steve Smith Round:3 Pick:12
Hines Ward 3rd round, #98 overall
Santana Moss first round (16th overall)
Javon Walker With 1st Round Pick (20 Overall)

all of them 1st day draft picks most of the in the 1st round!


So you've gone back 10 years, and found 4 first rounders, and 8 in the first 3 rounds.

You have proven my point. Thanks.

[Sully]

some good 2nd day Wideouts


Joe Horn 5th
Derrick Mason 4th round (98th overall)
Donald Driver 7th round (213th overall)
Torry Holt 137th overall

alot less success in the later rounds.


While you are researching, could you go ahead and just post a comprehensive list of WRs taken in rounds 1 and 2 in the past 5-8years?

[KCTitus]

Take a look at the draft history of most NFL teams and they're littered but WR busts.

Detroit would be a good case study on the difficulties of drafting WR talent.

[penguinz]

Detroit would be a good case study on the difficulties of drafting WR talent.
Not really. You have to take in account who is drafting players for Detroit. Not the sharpest tack in the box.

[cdcox]

Not really. You have to take in account who is drafting players for Detroit. Not the sharpest tack in the box.

Every other NFL talent evaluator had these guys ranked among the top 10 draft prospects. The Lions were idiots for investing so much in one position, but not because people didn't think the players they drafted would be good.

[DaneMcCloud]

Torry Holt 137th overall


What? Torry Holt was the 6th overall draft pick of the Rams in 1999. You must be confusing him with his brother Terrance, who's a CB.

[Hammock Parties]

We don't. Samie Parker was an excellent pick and is poised for his first 1,000 yard season.

I like the potential of Crap Thorpe and I think Jeff Webb is one of the most talented sixth-rounders I've ever seen. I can't believe he lasted that long.

[chief2000]

What do you see in Jeff Webb ?

[KCTitus]

Not really. You have to take in account who is drafting players for Detroit. Not the sharpest tack in the box.

Ok, that's a hindsight dismissal...those WR's in college were the premiere talent in the NCAA game. I can see taking a shot at one and missing but going 0-3 says something about the difficulty to get WR's to take their game from college to pros.

[JBucc]

What do you see in Jeff Webb ?I haven't seen him but I hear he's a good athlete that has made some good catches. I hope he makes the team.

[oaklandhater]

While you are researching, could you go ahead and just post a comprehensive list of WRs taken in rounds 1 and 2 in the past 5-8years?

1st Cleveland Braylon Edwards WR 2005
1st Minnesota Troy Williamson WR 2005
1st Jacksonville Matt Jones WR 2005
1st Baltimore Mark Clayton WR 2005
2nd Philadelphia Reggie Brown WR 2005
2nd Green Bay Terrence Murphy WR 2005
2nd San Diego Vincent Jackson WR 2005
2nd Buffalo Roscoe Parrish WR 2005
2nd Chicago Mark Bradley WR 2005

1st Arizona Larry Fitzgerald WR 2004
1st Detroit Roy Williams WR 2004
1st Jacksonville Reggie Williams WR 2004
1st Buffalo Lee Evans WR 2004
1st Tampa Bay Michael Clayton WR 2004
1st Atlanta Michael Jenkins WR 2004
1st San Francisco Rashaun Woods WR 2004
2nd New Orleans Devery Henderson WR 2004
2nd Denver Darius Watts WR 2004
2nd Carolina Keary Colbert WR 2004

1st Detroit Charles Rogers WR 2003
1st Houston Andre Johnson WR 2003
1st Arizona Bryant Johnson WR 2003
2nd Washington Taylor Jacobs WR 2003
2nd New England Bethel Johnson WR 2003
2nd Arizona Anquan Boldin WR 2003
2nd Tennessee Tyrone Calico WR 2003

1st New Orleans Donte' Stallworth WR 2002
1st Denver Ashley Lelie WR 2002
1st Green Bay Javon Walker WR 2002
2nd Houston Jabar Gaffney WR 2002
2nd Buffalo Josh Reed WR 2002
2nd N.Y. Giants Tim Carter WR 2002
2nd Cleveland Andre' Davis WR 2002
2nd San Diego Reche Caldwell WR 2002
2nd Pittsburgh Antwaan Randle El WR 2002
2nd Dallas Antonio Bryant WR 2002
2nd New England Deion Branch WR 2002

1st Chicago David Terrell WR 2001
1st Seattle Koren Robinson WR 2001
1st Washington Rod Gardner WR 2001
1st N.Y. Jets Santana Moss WR 2001
1st Philadelphia Freddie Mitchell WR 2001
1st Indianapolis Reggie Wayne WR 2001
2nd Cleveland Quincy Morgan WR 2001
2nd Cincinnati Chad Johnson WR 2001
2nd Green Bay Robert Ferguson WR 2001
2nd Miami Chris Chambers WR 2001


1st Cincinnati Peter Warrick WR 2000
1st Pittsburgh Plaxico Burress WR 2000
1st Baltimore Travis Taylor WR 2000
1st Kansas City Sylvester Morris WR 2000
1st Jacksonville R. Jay Soward WR 2000
2nd Cleveland Dennis Northcutt WR 2000
2nd Philadelphia Todd Pinkston WR 2000
2nd Oakland Jerry Porter WR 2000


1st St. Louis Torry Holt WR 1999
1st Arizona David Boston WR 1999
1st Pittsburgh Troy Edwards WR 1999
2nd Cleveland Kevin Johnson WR 1999
2nd Buffalo Peerless Price WR 1999


1stTennessee Kevin Dyson WR 1998
1st Minnesota Randy Moss WR 1998
1st Denver Marcus Nash WR 1998
2nd Indianapolis Jerome Pathon WR 1998
2nd Tampa Bay Jacquez Green WR 1998
2nd Baltimore Pat Johnson WR 1998
2nd Detroit Germane Crowell WR 1998
2nd N.Y. Giants Joe Jurevicius WR 1998


1st N.Y. Giants Ike Hilliard WR 1997
1st Miami Yatil Green WR 1997
1st Tampa Bay Reidel Anthony WR 1997
1st Carolina Rae Carruth WR 1997
2nd Tennessee Joey Kent WR 1997
2nd Kansas City Kevin Lockett WR 1997
2nd Pittsburgh Will Blackwell WR 1997

1st N.Y. Jets Keyshawn Johnson WR 1996
1st New England Terry Glenn WR 1996
1st St. Louis Eddie Kennison WR 1996
1st Indianapolis Marvin Harrison WR 1996
1st Buffalo Eric Moulds WR 1996
2nd Jets Alex Van Dyke WR 1996
2nd N.Y. Giants Amani Toomer WR 1996
2nd San Diego Bryan Still WR 1996
2nd Carolina Muhsin Muhammad WR 1996
2nd Chicago Bobby Engram WR 1996
2nd Green Bay Derrick Mayes WR 1996

There you go :)

[Hammock Parties]

What do you see in Jeff Webb ?

Speed and a big, tall, lanky wide receiver. He looks sort of like Chris Chambers. He's 6-2, but he has the arms and legs of a much taller man.

[oaklandhater]

After looking at that list San Diego has much more problems then we do at Wideout.

[penguinz]

Ok, that's a hindsight dismissal...those WR's in college were the premiere talent in the NCAA game. I can see taking a shot at one and missing but going 0-3 says something about the difficulty to get WR's to take their game from college to pros.I think it says more about the organization than the difficulty of finding a slightly above average WR.

[chagrin]

We don't. Samie Parker was an excellent pick and is poised for his first 1,000 yard season.

Is he holding on to the ball in camp, that's all Iw ant to know, otherwise he is not poised for his first 1,000 yard season.

I like the potential of Crap Thorpe and I think Jeff Webb is one of the most talented sixth-rounders I've ever seen.

Please elaborate because I never heard of these guys before about 2 months before the draft. Seriously, what do you really "see" in him that someone else didn't write? I don't mean that as an insult but this smacks of homerism, which really isn't a bad thing - just sounds like fluff.

[Hammock Parties]

Is he holding on to the ball in camp, that's all Iw ant to know, otherwise he is not poised for his first 1,000 yard season.


He's looked great in camp. The mental part of the game is no longer an issue. He's not thinking out there anymore. He caught a 50-yard TD yesterday.



Please elaborate because I never heard of these guys before about 2 months before the draft. Seriously, what do you really "see" in him that someone else didn't write? I don't mean that as an insult but this smacks of homerism, which really isn't a bad thing - just sounds like fluff.

I just said I liked their potential. 6-2, 4.4 guys don't grow on trees. DV never had any big wide receivers outside Marc Boerigter.

[KCTitus]

I think it says more about the organization than the difficulty of finding a slightly above average WR.

Actually, the fact that they spent 3 straight top 10 overall picks on WR's says a lot about the organization, however, the fact that NONE of them seem to have panned out says something about the difficulty of the position to translate to the NFL from the college game.

[Frankie]

Why do we have trouble drafting WRs ?
We don't. We drafted Otis Taylor.

[cdcox]

I took oaklandhater's list and rated every receiver as to whether they turned out to be a top receiver. I started in 2003, given the view that it takes 3 years for a WR to develop.

I rated them + if they definitely developed into a top reciever, - if they did not and ? if the jury is still out or they had long gaps in their career or if they are boaderline.

I came up with 13 +, 9?, and 44 -.

That is between a 20% and 33% chance of getting a top reciever if you draft one in the first 2 rounds.

Conclusions:

1) It's tough to develop a top reciever
2) Picking one in the first 2 rounds does not ensure that you will get one by any stretch
3) Detroits luck here is not statistically different than the league-wide average.

Here are my player by player ratings.

1st Detroit Charles Rogers WR 2003 -
1st Houston Andre Johnson WR 2003 +
1st Arizona Bryant Johnson WR 2003 -
2nd Washington Taylor Jacobs WR 2003 -
2nd New England Bethel Johnson WR 2003 -
2nd Arizona Anquan Boldin WR 2003 +
2nd Tennessee Tyrone Calico WR 2003 -

1st New Orleans Donte' Stallworth WR 2002 -
1st Denver Ashley Lelie WR 2002 ?
1st Green Bay Javon Walker WR 2002 ?
2nd Houston Jabar Gaffney WR 2002 -
2nd Buffalo Josh Reed WR 2002 -
2nd N.Y. Giants Tim Carter WR 2002 -
2nd Cleveland Andre' Davis WR 2002 -
2nd San Diego Reche Caldwell WR 2002 -
2nd Pittsburgh Antwaan Randle El WR 2002 ?
2nd Dallas Antonio Bryant WR 2002 ?
2nd New England Deion Branch WR 2002 ?

1st Chicago David Terrell WR 2001 -
1st Seattle Koren Robinson WR 2001 -
1st Washington Rod Gardner WR 2001 -
1st N.Y. Jets Santana Moss WR 2001 +
1st Philadelphia Freddie Mitchell WR 2001 -
1st Indianapolis Reggie Wayne WR 2001 +
2nd Cleveland Quincy Morgan WR 2001 -
2nd Cincinnati Chad Johnson WR 2001 +
2nd Green Bay Robert Ferguson WR 2001 -
2nd Miami Chris Chambers WR 2001 +


1st Cincinnati Peter Warrick WR 2000 -
1st Pittsburgh Plaxico Burress WR 2000 +
1st Baltimore Travis Taylor WR 2000 -
1st Kansas City Sylvester Morris WR 2000 -
1st Jacksonville R. Jay Soward WR 2000 -
2nd Cleveland Dennis Northcutt WR 2000 -
2nd Philadelphia Todd Pinkston WR 2000 -
2nd Oakland Jerry Porter WR 2000 ?


1st St. Louis Torry Holt WR 1999 +
1st Arizona David Boston WR 1999 -
1st Pittsburgh Troy Edwards WR 1999 -
2nd Cleveland Kevin Johnson WR 1999 -
2nd Buffalo Peerless Price WR 1999 ?


1stTennessee Kevin Dyson WR 1998 -
1st Minnesota Randy Moss WR 1998 +
1st Denver Marcus Nash WR 1998 -
2nd Indianapolis Jerome Pathon WR 1998 -
2nd Tampa Bay Jacquez Green WR 1998 -
2nd Baltimore Pat Johnson WR 1998 -
2nd Detroit Germane Crowell WR 1998 -
2nd N.Y. Giants Joe Jurevicius WR 1998 -


1st N.Y. Giants Ike Hilliard WR 1997 -
1st Miami Yatil Green WR 1997 -
1st Tampa Bay Reidel Anthony WR 1997 -
1st Carolina Rae Carruth WR 1997 -
2nd Tennessee Joey Kent WR 1997 -
2nd Kansas City Kevin Lockett WR 1997 -
2nd Pittsburgh Will Blackwell WR 1997 -

1st N.Y. Jets Keyshawn Johnson WR 1996 +
1st New England Terry Glenn WR 1996 ?
1st St. Louis Eddie Kennison WR 1996 ?
1st Indianapolis Marvin Harrison WR 1996 +
1st Buffalo Eric Moulds WR 1996 +
2nd Jets Alex Van Dyke WR 1996 -
2nd N.Y. Giants Amani Toomer WR 1996 +
2nd San Diego Bryan Still WR 1996 -
2nd Carolina Muhsin Muhammad WR 1996 +
2nd Chicago Bobby Engram WR 1996 -
2nd Green Bay Derrick Mayes WR 1996 -

[DJJasonp]

I think it's a combination of not using a pick in the 1st or 2nd round and the fact that our offense the last 15 years has not been an offense that is very wide receiver-friendly. With Marty...3 yds and a cloud of dust and the occasional play-action deep pass....with Vermeil...even though we claimed to be the rams offense - it was actually the opposite of the rams....throw more than pass, and when you do pass, throw more to the tight-ends.

We had workmanlike, somewhat successful offenses in the 90's using WR's such as:
Sean LaChapelle
Tim Barnett
Fred Jones (didnt we have a bill jones also?)
willie davis
etc etc.
I'm afraid even if we did have a star WR back in those days - it wouldnt have made that much of a difference due to the offensive philosophy. The last 5-6 years, it's been built around Priest, LJ, and Tony G....

[oaklandhater]

I took GoChiefs list and rated every receiver as to whether they turned out to be a top receiver. I started in 2003, given the view that it takes 3 years for a WR to develop.



Gochiefs list WTF?

[cdcox]

Gochiefs list WTF?

Sorry 'bout that. Honest mistake.

[oaklandhater]

Sorry 'bout that. Honest mistake.


Im just fooling with you nice ratings bye the way.

[oaklandhater]

Can some one tell me what happened with Kevin Lockett I must have blocked him out or something?

[cdcox]

Bounced around for a few years and looks like he is out of the league now.

+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1997 kan | 9 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 1 35 35.0 0 |
| 1998 kan | 13 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 19 281 14.8 0 |
| 1999 kan | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 34 426 12.5 2 |
| 2000 kan | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 33 417 12.6 2 |
| 2001 was | 15 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 22 293 13.3 0 |
| 2002 jax | 6 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 5 76 15.2 2 |
| 2002 was | 6 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 11 129 11.7 2 |
| 2003 nyj | 3 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 5 76 15.2 0 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 84 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 130 1733 13.3 8 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

[oaklandhater]

any reason he didn't work out here?

[Mecca]

We don't. Samie Parker was an excellent pick and is poised for his first 1,000 yard season.

I like the potential of Crap Thorpe and I think Jeff Webb is one of the most talented sixth-rounders I've ever seen. I can't believe he lasted that long.

As I've listened to Petro for an entire week talk about how god awful the WR's look.........he basically said anyone outside of Kennison, Parker and Hall look like complete ass.

By the way for anyone ripping all of Detroits WR picks, Roy Williams doesn't suck he just has injury issues. He'd easily be the most talented WR on our team.

[FloridaMan88]

Any ideas ?

Carls weakness is offensive personel ? He could never find a young qb also.

Carl's weakness is drafting PERIOD

Every year Carl should just trade all the team's draft picks away for veteran players. His best moves as GM of the Chiefs have virtually all been trades.

[Messier]

Carl's weakness is drafting PERIOD

Every year Carl should just trade all the team's draft picks away for veteran players. His best moves as GM of the Chiefs have virtually all been trades.


Wow! That was dumb. Oh, wait. Your the one who had that post about it being Carls fault or something for Roaf retiring. Nevermind.

[FloridaMan88]

Wow! That was dumb. Oh, wait. Your the one who had that post about it being Carls fault or something for Roaf retiring. Nevermind.


Go look back at the Chiefs draft history under Carl, it is pathetic.

That is one of the reasons for why the Chiefs haven't won a playoff game in 12 years. Carl can't draft worth shit.

[blueballs]

someone who make me
look brilliant

BRILLIANT!!

[Tribal Warfare]

Any ideas ?

Carls weakness is offensive personel ? He could never find a young qb also.

I think it's because Carl's sexually frustrated

[the Talking Can]

1st Chicago David Terrell WR 2001
1st Seattle Koren Robinson WR 2001
1st Washington Rod Gardner WR 2001
1st N.Y. Jets Santana Moss WR 2001
1st Philadelphia Freddie Mitchell WR 2001
1st Indianapolis Reggie Wayne WR 2001
2nd Cleveland Quincy Morgan WR 2001
2nd Cincinnati Chad Johnson WR 2001
2nd Green Bay Robert Ferguson WR 2001
2nd Miami Chris Chambers WR 2001


hindsight....Philly took Mitchell over Wayne.....Morgan over Johnson...wish we could find a 2nd like Chambers

1996 was the only year where a majority of the picks tunred into good WRs....definite hit or miss

[Messier]

Go look back at the Chiefs draft history under Carl, it is pathetic.

That is one of the reasons for why the Chiefs haven't won a playoff game in 12 years. Carl can't draft worth shit.


OK once again it's the old idea that Carl sits alone in a room and makes all the picks. They have scouting departments and coaches. Carl is responsible for half or fewer of the picks. That being said you look at not only the Chiefs drafts but every other teams draft, I did, what you will find is that all teams suck at it about half the time. Drafting is a crap shoot for everyone. I'm not gonna list all the drafts under Carl but "he" along with coaches and others have drafted three potential hall of famers and 11 pro bowlers that puts "him" in the top half as far as productivity from the picks.

[greg63]

Any ideas ?

Carls weakness is offensive personel ? He could never find a young qb also.


King Carl's an idiot? :shrug:



....I just like blaming him. :D

[NJ Chief Fan]

LETS CALL IN FRED-EX FOR ANOTHER SHOT