Ethics question

[Phobia]

How do you feel about this ad on craigslist?

I'll discuss later in the thread but I don't want to put ideas in your heads.

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/sks/287744136.html

[Sully]

I think it's ridiculous.
I also think it will result int he desired effect.

[Buck]

No marine should use these tactics. Fake.

[Ultra Peanut]

NOTE: Will only accept jobs offering pie. Cake not an acceptable substitute.

[mikeyis4dcats.]

no real Marine would misspell Semper Fi so badly.

[OnTheWarpath15]

Michael?

[kstater]

no real Marine would misspell Semper Fi so badly.


Beat me to it, that's what I was thinking. Also, what does being a Marine have to do with being a contractor?

[chief52]

Not sure about the ethics, but as was stated earlier I bet it gets the desired results.

Guy sounds like he is hungry and eager. I would surely give him a shot if I were looking for a remodle kinda guy.

Not being a military guy, I can not really give an opinion on the ethics of using his military background as a calling card.

[Phobia]

Misspelling aside, I think it's tacky and pathetic. I have my Marine service on my resume but I would never use it to market my services. If it comes up in conversation I'm willing to discuss it but I'm not going to cram my veteran status down anybody's throat.

Thanks for the feedback. I was just making sure I wasn't being judgemental because I'm emotionally attached to the USMC.

[trndobrd]

"Simpri Fi"? WTF is that supposed to be?

For that matter, when did this individual "volunteer for the Iraq war?" 8 years experience with a full time job at age 27, must have been a short career with the Marine Corps.

I call BS on this alleged Marine Veteran.

[mikeyis4dcats.]

Misspelling aside, I think it's tacky and pathetic. I have my Marine service on my resume but I would never use it to market my services. If it comes up in conversation I'm willing to discuss it but I'm not going to cram my veteran status down anybody's throat.

Thanks for the feedback. I was just making sure I wasn't being judgemental because I'm emotionally attached to the USMC.

Call him and tell him how a "fellow" Marine feels.

[stumppy]

Misspelling aside, I think it's tacky and pathetic. I have my Marine service on my resume but I would never use it to market my services. If it comes up in conversation I'm willing to discuss it but I'm not going to cram my veteran status down anybody's throat.

Thanks for the feedback. I was just making sure I wasn't being judgemental because I'm emotionally attached to the USMC.


I agree. Tacky and pathetic are exactly what I was thinking.

[Brock]

Will work for pie

[Smed1065]

Puts out a red flag for several reasons.

Starting with service that he volunteered for, flipped many houses but is needing work?
Must not make any money at it then.

Uses patriotism as an opener. We know he was not drafted unless he is old azz, which means he is calling the public stupid. 8 years experience at a full time job, no shit?

He can only work certain hours, so he must be making money full-time but plays the Veteran and volunteer card.

Maybe you need to stay away from Craigslist?

He will probably steal tools while giving a "free" estimate..........

<img src="http://scosoft.com/s/g/d1cfc8e.gif" width="60" height="40">
Or put it in your bedroom..............

[Phobia]

Call him and tell him how a "fellow" Marine feels.

That was a great idea. I just hung up with him. I asked him a few questions - he's a reservist who had been activated. His SIL posted the ad - hence the misspelling. We had a very civil conversation about how I felt regarding his misuse of the Marine veteran label in furthering his business. I offered my perspective as a veteran and he indicated that he appreciated the feedback. He said that mine was the first negative feedback and that he frequently got pats on the back and attaboys for it. Apparently he also flaunts it on his magnetic truck sign as well.

I could never do that but I'm wired differently obviously. I wished him well and said goodbye. I feel better - somewhat.

[Phobia]

Very funny, Smed. I'm a craigslist addict. I buy and sell frequently on that site. What a great community tool.

[Demonpenz]

You should know if it is a real marine by his posture, eye contact, and bone crushing handshake.

[crazycoffey]

freaking jarheads...

[crazycoffey]

That was a great idea. I just hung up with him. I asked him a few questions - he's a reservist who had been activated. His SIL posted the ad - hence the misspelling. We had a very civil conversation about how I felt regarding his misuse of the Marine veteran label in furthering his business. I offered my perspective as a veteran and he indicated that he appreciated the feedback. He said that mine was the first negative feedback and that he frequently got pats on the back and attaboys for it. Apparently he also flaunts it on his magnetic truck sign as well.

I could never do that but I'm wired differently obviously. I wished him well and said goodbye. I feel better - somewhat.


I'm with you on this too. I was in the military and it is a great networking tool in conversation, and I couldn't use it for a marketing tool, but I don't really think negative of him for using it if he's comfortable with it.

but I do understand what you're saying.

[Smed1065]

Very funny, Smed. I'm a craigslist addict. I buy and sell frequently on that site. What a great community tool.

I bought my current car from that damn place as well. I have no room to talk.

[Otter]

That was a great idea. I just hung up with him. I asked him a few questions - he's a reservist who had been activated. His SIL posted the ad - hence the misspelling. We had a very civil conversation about how I felt regarding his misuse of the Marine veteran label in furthering his business. I offered my perspective as a veteran and he indicated that he appreciated the feedback. He said that mine was the first negative feedback and that he frequently got pats on the back and attaboys for it. Apparently he also flaunts it on his magnetic truck sign as well.

I could never do that but I'm wired differently obviously. I wished him well and said goodbye. I feel better - somewhat.

My first thought was "imposter" but if you spoke to him I'll assume you two went through the usual BS that ex-service guys go through when they meet up and he's legit.

I'll agree using the Iraq and Marine Corp spiels are tacky considering what other men and women have sacrificed.

[cdcox]

Around here you see a lot of contractors noting the fact that they are Christians in their yellow page ads. Similarly tacky if you ask me.

[Bugeater]

That's just a horribly written ad all around. I don't even know where to begin with it.

[mikeyis4dcats.]

Around here you see a lot of contractors noting the fact that they are Christians in their yellow page ads. Similarly tacky if you ask me.

I've got one subcontractor that has a bunch of bible verse in his proposal boilerplate. It's kind of laughable.

[Phobia]

Around here you see a lot of contractors noting the fact that they are Christians in their yellow page ads. Similarly tacky if you ask me.
I'd tend to agree. I've seen it and felt a little twinge of disapproval though strangely nowhere near what I felt towards the guy's exploitation of his veteran status. I don't think I would have felt led to call somebody touting Christianity in an ad.

[NewChief]

Around here you see a lot of contractors noting the fact that they are Christians in their yellow page ads. Similarly tacky if you ask me.

Most of them around here just put the Ichthus on their ad or card.

[Slick32]

I wouldn't consider the situation as a question of ethics. It's not unethical to be proud of your background.

I would say that it is in bad taste is all.

[Bugeater]

Around here you see a lot of contractors noting the fact that they are Christians in their yellow page ads. Similarly tacky if you ask me.
Another thing I've seen a lot of contractors advertise are "senior discounts". I've never understood how you can give a discount on something that there is no set price on to begin with. It's complete BS.

[Frazod]

I look at it this way - unless they put in 20 or get maimed somehow, veterans don't get jack shit. Christ, I don't even get Veteran's Day off. If this guy wants to market himself as the Bob Villa of the Marine Corps, more power to him, as long as he's for real.

[NewChief]

Another thing I've seen in a lot of contractors advertise are "senior discounts". I've never understood how you can give a discount on something that there is no set price on to begin with. It's complete BS.

By "senior discounts" they mean that they're not going to exploit the elderly like most contractors. My mother-in-law lives in Bella Vista, AR (a golfing/retirement community), and I've never seen such outrageous prices for construction projects.

[mikeyis4dcats.]

Another thing I've seen in a lot of contractors advertise are "senior discounts". I've never understood how you can give a discount on something that there is no set price on to begin with. It's complete BS.

pretty much the same thing as any other service. sure, an attorney may tell you $150/hr, but he can tell ther next guy $175.

[Phobia]

Another thing I've seen a lot of contractors advertise are "senior discounts". I've never understood how you can give a discount on something that there is no set price on to begin with. It's complete BS.

If you don't specify it I've found a lot of them will flat out ask for it. I don't believe in exploiting the elderly but generally I'll just mark up my estimate and then add a discount line to appease them. However, I have a special burden for widows. I go out of my way to take good care of them. While I won't give my time away, I'm willing to break even to help them out.

[Bugeater]

By "senior discounts" they mean that they're not going to exploit the elderly like most contractors. My mother-in-law lives in Bella Vista, AR (a golfing/retirement community), and I've never seen such outrageous prices for construction projects.
So it's their own way of saying "We don't rip off old people"? An old wise man once told me "Don't trust anyone who tells you how honest they are".

[Bugeater]

If you don't specify it I've found a lot of them will flat out ask for it. I don't believe in exploiting the elderly but generally I'll just mark up my estimate and then add a discount line to appease them. However, I have a special burden for widows. I go out of my way to take good care of them. While I won't give my time away, I'm willing to break even to help them out.
That's precisely why it's BS. I'm not against charging a little less for someone who really needs it, as long as it's not going to take me away from someone who's willing to pay more.

[Hammock Parties]

You should use everything at your disposal to accomplish any goal you have. That's my feeling on it. Put that label to work.

[Phobia]

Some things are sacred.

[Hammock Parties]

Some things are sacred.

Not anymore. Do you know how many gang members have used the military and the marines to train themselves in advanced tactical combat? It's disgusting.

[patteeu]

no real Marine would misspell Semper Fi so badly.

Same.

If he's the real deal though, I have absolutely no problem with it.

[Phobia]

Well, it's still sacred to me. I don't believe in throwing my achieved rank, medals, or branch up into somebody's face for some perceived leverage. It's tacky and classless.

[PastorMikH]

I'm not sure about lying about the age here. Phil you're something like 10 years older than that. Seriously man, go ahead and put your real age up there. By telling people you are 27 they will assume that you are still learning. If you will be honest, people wanting someone with experience would be more likely to hire you.

[keg in kc]

Seems tacky to me, but it probably does get him some business. Same as folks who wear their christianity on their sleeves.

Meanwhile, I tend to prefer qualifications that actually have something to do with the job I'm asking someone to do.

[bringbackmarty]

Yeah, seems odd but things are more than a little odd around here these days....Hard times. I wouldn't do it.

We are about to take the first time homebuyer plunge here pretty soon Phil. If you get a check in the mail from me for five hundred dollars one day soon, I'll expect you to show up promptly @ 7:00 in the morning
ready to do the following:

1. Tell me how much I've messed up in whatever ghetto hell hole we end up buying, and how I'd be better off buying a condo.

2. Tell the permit guy when he shows up that I'm not home, and that I really do have the appropriate permits on file, which of course I don't.

3. Screen my laborers for me so that when one climbs up on a ladder drunk trying to install a ceiling fan, with sparks and stuff flying everywhere, I can blame someone besides my dumb azz for hiring him just because he was cheap.

4. Of course any jobs I actually assign you to do you should contract out, for half of whatever I pay you.

5. Keep track of how many times Jim Bob takes a leak in either the pool, or the side of the house, don't say anything to him, but I have a rider in his contract that says he loses $100 every time he uses the bathroom on the job, or goes to the liquor store. I'll split all the money I save with you.

6. Bribe the permit guy when he comes back, if you can get him on a lower bribe than the $500.00 I'm gonna give you to bribe him, keep the change.

[Rain Man]

Liechtenstein should hire this guy to liberate them from the Swiss.

[Smed1065]

If you don't specify it I've found a lot of them will flat out ask for it. I don't believe in exploiting the elderly but I have a special burden for widows.

I go out of my way to take good care of them.

Do they live in Belton?

TMI.

You should know better by now on the planet??

[teedubya]

I was in the military awhile, as a Russian Linguist with a Top Secret Security Clearance... but I rarely ever even think to mention it. Perhaps I will get a magnet for my car.

[Gonzo]

I have my Marine service on my resume but I would never use it to market my services.



Hey Phob,
Isn't this the same thing in essence? You put your millitary record out there to make you a more attractive prospect, he did the same.

This gentleman is basically posting a small part of his resume on the internet to attract a little more work so he can feed himself and/or his family.

Guess I don't see the difference. :shrug:

[Phobia]

Hey Phob,
Isn't this the same thing in essence? You put your millitary record out there to make you a more attractive prospect, he did the same.

This gentleman is basically posting a small part of his resume on the internet to attract a little more work so he can feed himself and/or his family.

Guess I don't see the difference. :shrug:

I anticipated this question and it's a fair one.

No, it absolutely is not the same. It is appropriate and moreso - required on a resume.

To exploit it for the purposes of furthering your business interest? Completely inappropriate unless you are advertising your services as a bodyguard, personal trainer, wilderness survival guide, assasine, or some other occupation to which the title "Marine Veteran" would be meaningful.

[Smed1065]

Hey Phob,
Isn't this the same thing in essence? You put your millitary record out there to make you a more attractive prospect, he did the same.

This gentleman is basically posting a small part of his resume on the internet to attract a little more work so he can feed himself and/or his family.

Guess I don't see the difference. :shrug:

Given his age and adding 8 years at a job means he went to boot camp and probably got booted or quit. But he uses the reference in his "cover" letter?

[Slick32]

I anticipated this question and it's a fair one.

No, it absolutely is not the same. It is appropriate and moreso - required on a resume.

To exploit it for the purposes of furthering your business interest? Completely inappropriate unless you are advertising your services as a bodyguard, personal trainer, wilderness survival guide, assasine, or some other occupation to which the title "Marine Veteran" would be meaningful.

If you are using your resume for purposes of getting a contract with someone it actually is the same thing.

Like I said before, it isn't wrong ethically but just in bad taste.

[Fairplay]

no real Marine would misspell Semper Fi so badly.


You would think so. But some of them are dumb, so they joined the marines.

[Sully]

Hey Phob,
Isn't this the same thing in essence? You put your millitary record out there to make you a more attractive prospect, he did the same.

This gentleman is basically posting a small part of his resume on the internet to attract a little more work so he can feed himself and/or his family.

Guess I don't see the difference. :shrug:

I don't think it would be the same thing unless the guy in the ad also listed every other job he's had in the past, as a resume includes. I also assume that Phobia's resume doesn't have his military experience in the header as the main selling point. I see what you are getting at, but you aren't using context in teh criticism.

[Demonpenz]

whats the deal with christian body shops? I needed some fender work done and I saw a sign for one that was like we fix cars in the name of christ....what?

[Phobia]

If you are using your resume for purposes of getting a contract with someone it actually is the same thing.

Like I said before, it isn't wrong ethically but just in bad taste.

A resume is a summary of your work history - which typically would include any service time.

An advertisement is not anything like a resume at all.

[Skip Towne]

By "senior discounts" they mean that they're not going to exploit the elderly like most contractors. My mother-in-law lives in Bella Vista, AR (a golfing/retirement community), and I've never seen such outrageous prices for construction projects.
That might be because of all the rich folks who live in Bella Vista. Doesn' t David Glass live there?

[trndobrd]

A resume is a summary of your work history - which typically would include any service time.

An advertisement is not anything like a resume at all.


You can't very well have four years missing off your work history. Employers will assume you were making car tags for the state.

[chief52]

Liechtenstein should hire this guy to liberate them from the Swiss.


:) I like it....

[Jenny Gump]

Well, I am NOT a veteran, but I looked at from a different perspective. When I think of a veteran, I think of someone who works hard and makes sacrifices. I would probably pick this guy over another because of the vet status, but NOT out of pity. It would be because of an expectation of work ethic. I don't see the big deal, however, I realize maybe I would feel differently if I were a vet myself.

[Phobia]

Well, I am NOT a veteran, but I looked at from a different perspective. When I think of a veteran, I think of someone who works hard and makes sacrifices. I would probably pick this guy over another because of the vet status, but NOT out of pity. It would be because of an expectation of work ethic. I don't see the big deal, however, I realize maybe I would feel differently if I were a vet myself.

Thanks for that. This is why I didn't want to cram my opinion down anybody's throat in the thread starter.

[wutamess]

That was a great idea. I just hung up with him. I asked him a few questions - he's a reservist who had been activated. His SIL posted the ad - hence the misspelling. We had a very civil conversation about how I felt regarding his misuse of the Marine veteran label in furthering his business. I offered my perspective as a veteran and he indicated that he appreciated the feedback. He said that mine was the first negative feedback and that he frequently got pats on the back and attaboys for it. Apparently he also flaunts it on his magnetic truck sign as well.

I could never do that but I'm wired differently obviously. I wished him well and said goodbye. I feel better - somewhat.


Ethics aside, he's used it to his advantage.
America is proud to support the Services... maybe you should use it too.

It's all about the money. No different than a Christian shouting their religion in order to reap benefits. That somehow gets a pass.

So hypocritical.

Anyways... Can't beat'em... Join'em... your business might pick up.

[Rausch]

If you're selling yourself to an employer you list all your positive attributes.

Would it be tacky to say you've donated time to a food bank, school, or church? I don't see that as tacky, WTF should fighting for your country be tacky?

[Phobia]

Ethics aside, he's used it to his advantage.
America is proud to support the Services... maybe you should use it too.

It's all about the money. No different than a Christian shouting their religion in order to reap benefits. That somehow gets a pass.

So hypocritical.

Anyways... Can't beat'em... Join'em... your business might pick up.
I'm a veteran. You better give me that roof job. Heh.

[Braincase]

Not anymore. Do you know how many gang members have used the military and the marines to train themselves in advanced tactical combat? It's disgusting.

That explains the mystical skill sof thr Star Wars kid.

[NaptownChief]

Ethics aside, he's used it to his advantage.
America is proud to support the Services... maybe you should use it too.

It's all about the money. No different than a Christian shouting their religion in order to reap benefits. That somehow gets a pass.

So hypocritical.

Anyways... Can't beat'em... Join'em... your business might pick up.


Agreed....

[keg in kc]

I guess I just don't get it, like I said yesterday. Unless he did "remodeling jobs" in the service, what the f*ck does his status as a veteran have to do with his ability to do the work he's advertising?

I mean, shit, take it a nutty step further. "Need heart surgery? Contact me! I was in the Marines! Am I a doctor? Well, no. But I am a veteran! That means I'll do a good job, right? Right?"

Good word of mouth impresses me way, way more than that. Give me some referrals, at least. "Hire me, I was a marine" just doesn't cut it.

[Phobia]

I used to be a highly paid Network Engineer. Please give me your remodeling business.

[keg in kc]

Only if I can weasel out of paying.



I still can't believe people are like that. Apparently it's a universal problem, too.

[Stinger]

When did Cody start getting into construction?

SuperFly .... DO or DIE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stevieray]

There are some shady contractors out there, and I think you both list your service in the marines because its represents responsibilty and trustworthiness in an enviroment where people need to feel confident in their choice or choices.

after that, it's up to the individual to personify those character traits.

[Bowser]

I guess I just don't get it, like I said yesterday. Unless he did "remodeling jobs" in the service, what the f*ck does his status as a veteran have to do with his ability to do the work he's advertising?

I mean, shit, take it a nutty step further. "Need heart surgery? Contact me! I was in the Marines! Am I a doctor? Well, no. But I am a veteran! That means I'll do a good job, right? Right?"

Good word of mouth impresses me way, way more than that. Give me some referrals, at least. "Hire me, I was a marine" just doesn't cut it.

Your use of common sense has led you to hate America. And most probably pie, as well.

[Slick32]

A resume is a summary of your work history - which typically would include any service time.

An advertisement is not anything like a resume at all.

Do you submit your resume to potential customers? Same same.

[Jenny Gump]

I guess I just don't get it, like I said yesterday. Unless he did "remodeling jobs" in the service, what the f*ck does his status as a veteran have to do with his ability to do the work he's advertising?

I mean, shit, take it a nutty step further. "Need heart surgery? Contact me! I was in the Marines! Am I a doctor? Well, no. But I am a veteran! That means I'll do a good job, right? Right?"

Good word of mouth impresses me way, way more than that. Give me some referrals, at least. "Hire me, I was a marine" just doesn't cut it.

Ehhh..I don't know. A guy that can last through boot camp and an active duty in Iraq has already proven to me he is strong, not afraid of hard work, dedicated, and probably physically fit (ok, the "fit" part might be a stretch depending on when he served).

I would look for all of those traits in a construction or remodeling worker. All I look for in a heart surgeon is someone who isn't fresh out of school and who isn't an obese smoker.

[Phobia]

Do you submit your resume to potential customers? Same same.

No. I submit a portfolio to them.

[Jenny Gump]

No. I submit a portfolio to them.

Look, its similar to if I were going out looking for a board position somewhere. Do you think I would mention I was a nurse? Hell yes. I also mention it when I get pulled over by the cops (they love nurses), and when I'm in the chat rooms...but I digress.

[Phobia]

I actually get a lot of jobs by wearing bells on my shoes around the holidays.

[Jenny Gump]

I actually get a lot of jobs by wearing bells on my shoes around the holidays.

Well, just for that, you won't be working on MY carpet.

[Phobia]

Well, just for that, you won't be working on MY carpet.
No problem. I hate rug burns on my knees anyway.

[stevieray]

No problem. I hate rug burns on my knees anyway.

this post has ethics written all over it...


too funny.

[stumppy]

No problem. I hate rug burns on my knees anyway.


Maybe she wasn't talking about that kind of carpet.

[crazycoffey]

me likey Jenny, she's funny! ;)

[keg in kc]

Ehhh..I don't know. A guy that can last through boot camp and an active duty in Iraq has already proven to me he is strong, not afraid of hard work, dedicated, and probably physically fit (ok, the "fit" part might be a stretch depending on when he served). None of which means he knows a hammer from a nail.

I don't limit this question to just vets, either. IIRC, my original post also had to do with the "christian" tag as a way to attract business. I guess I get too stuck on things like qualifications, quality of work, price, and other, less subjective facets. If I'm hiring someone, I want him/her to be good at the job. Religion or service record is absolutely irrelevant to me.

I guess part of this whole thing is that I don't really place veterans on a pedestal, and I never have. I see it as a line of work, one that doesn't necessarily make said individual better or worse then the masses of poor, hapless civilians. That's not to say there aren't benefits to service, it's just that the way I see it, being a vet doesn't automatically make a man or a woman a hero, nor does not being one make a person a pussy. There are heroes in every walk of life, good people in and out of uniform, and an awful lot of folks who deserve respect.

In my world at least. I didn't grow up in a military family, so I know a lot of people see it differently than I do.

[crazycoffey]

None of which means he knows a hammer from a nail.

I don't limit this question to just vets, either. IIRC, my original post also had to do with the "christian" tag as a way to attract business. I guess I get too stuck on things like qualifications, quality of work, price, and other, less subjective facets. If I'm hiring someone, I want him/her to be good at the job. Religion or service record is absolutely irrelevant to me.

I guess part of this whole thing is that I don't really place veterans on a pedestal, and I never have. I see it as a line of work, one that doesn't necessarily make said individual better or worse then the masses of poor, hapless civilians. That's not to say there aren't benefits to service, it's just that the way I see it, being a vet doesn't automatically make a man or a woman a hero, nor does not being one make a person a pussy. There are heroes in every walk of life, good people in and out of uniform, and an awful lot of folks who deserve respect.

In my world at least. I didn't grow up in a military family, so I know a lot of people see it differently than I do.



that is the part that saddens my heart, I know there are others like you and I also know it's your right, but..... You just don't have a frame of reference to say "it's not a big deal"

Now as for the vet or christian using their status as a marketing tool, I didn't read that it was instead of other qualifications. If I hired a qualified electrician and I'm picking one from a list of four or five with good qualifications, and good reports on thier service and one of them says he's a vet, I may pick him, because I too was a vet.

I think it's meant more as a tie breaker, not a qualifier instead of certification. If it is, then he would fall under "buyer beware" status IMO.

[keg in kc]

that is the part that saddens my heart, I know there are others like you and I also know it's your right, but..... You just don't have a frame of reference to say "it's not a big deal".I know I'm not politically correct, and that's fine. I respect the idea that there are people who are in the military to serve their country. I respect that there are people willing to die for their country. I don't believe, however, that's everyone in the military, nor do I believe that everyone who's ever been in the military is automatically GI Joe, a real american hero. There are a lot of people who go in for help with college. There are a lot of people who go in for political or career reasons, because it's good on the resume. There's even a segment who goes in as a sort of economic escape. The long and short of it is that I don't believe that every single member of the armed forces is there for altruistic reasons. That doesn't make them good or bad, just a statement of what I see as fact. And while I'm sure this will be treated to like some kind of anti-military statement, it's not. The military is not a bad thing. I think it benefits a lot of people, both those serving by building character and discipline and those they serve whether it's at home or overseas. It's obviously integral to the security of the nation. I'd by no means discourage anyone from joining, if that's their desire. But at the same time, I'm not going to bow and scrape to everyone who's ever gone in. I'll respect them, but that's as far as it goes. There's an awful lot of people who've never been in who are just as important to this country, and just as deserving of respect.

That's the way I see it, as best as I can verbalize it. I guess I'm just one of those pesky people that likes to say what I think. That gets me in trouble sometimes, especially when I'm not walking in lockstep with popular sentiment.

[crazycoffey]

That's the way I see it, as best as I can verbalize it. I guess I'm just one of those pesky people that likes to say what I think. That gets me in trouble sometimes, especially when I'm not walking in lockstep with popular sentiment.


I already said you have the right to your opinion, it's America.

I do think that you may have a slightly jaded definition of respect. It isn't bowing and scraping to a vet. And again even the ones that joined for college went through boot camp and that alone could say something for a persons character.

You have an awfully high opinion of your opinion and low opinion about something you know very little of, can I ask how old you are, I'm guessing late teens or early 20's.

and before you take it all wrong, I'm just talking. Not mad and not trying to be disrespectfull or get you worked up. Just talking and trying to understand your opinion better - where it comes from.

[keg in kc]

I do think that you may have a slightly jaded definition of respect. It isn't bowing and scraping to a vet. And again even the ones that joined for college went through boot camp and that alone could say something for a persons character.I'm unique, what can I say. I also don't collect autographs from sports figures, which is an equally foreign concept to a lot of folks. I tend to think people are all pretty much equal, and I treat them like they are. I don't bow and scrape to anyone. Some people take that as disrespect. It's not. I certainly don't disrespect veterans in any way. They served, that's great. And it stops there, with me. I don't think it makes them better or worse than anyone else.You have an awfully high opinion of your opinion and low opinion about something you know very little ofI'm not sure exactly where that's coming from or what it pertains to. I'm one pretty insignificant guy on the internet espousing my opinion. I'm not trying to indoctrinate anyone, or tell anyone that they're wrong. I'm simply stating what my own view is. I haven't, so far as I can tell, said a word with regards to anyone else's opinion, positive or negative, nor have I, as far as I can recall, expressed a "low opinion" about anything.

To reiterate, the fact that I believe something somehow different from what other people do is not saying those people are wrong, nor is it in any way disrespecting what they believe to be true. It's simply stating my own opinion...can I ask how old you are, I'm guessing late teens or early 20's.Good god. I wish. ROFL

33.and before you take it all wrong, I'm just talking. Not mad and not trying to be disrespectfull or get you worked up. Just talking and trying to understand your opinion better - where it comes from.Nothing to take wrong and I'm not going to get worked up.

I'm a little surprised I even bothered to type on this (subject) at all. I think boredom probably played into it. Truth be told, I don't really feel all that strongly.

[trndobrd]

KCJohnny in 4.....3......2......

[Hammock Parties]

KCJohnny in 4.....3......2......

Heh. He's been absent for awhile now. Been nice.

[Phobia]

KCJ is one reason I feel strongly about this. I've never expected and certainly not demanded special treatment for my veteran background.

[keg in kc]

KCJ is probably the reason why I've been as vocal about this, to be honest.

[Skip Towne]

me likey Jenny, she's funny! ;)
She's way over your head, sonny boy.

[Slick32]

No. I submit a portfolio to them.

You are skirting the issue. Do you mention your military service in your portfolio?

[patteeu]

I think it's tacky to say that this is tacky.

I don't really think that, but it made about as much sense to me as complaining about this guy's ad. :shrug:

[SPchief]

You are skirting the issue. Do you mention your military service in your portfolio?


I'm guessing he doesn't. Do you know what a portfolio is?

[luv]

I'm guessing he doesn't. Do you know what a portfolio is?
I thought you passed out or something.

[luv]

I think it's silly to mention something that doesn't pertain to the job you are seeking. Saying that you are a veteran can be taken two ways. He's trying to use that just to get the job, or it may mean that's he's a dedicated hard worker. I'd say it at least draws people's attention to his ad, which is a plus. He can always wow them with his credentials and references once he gets their attention.

[patteeu]

Here's something to think about. If you were bidding on a job and you knew that one of the decision makers belonged to a particular fraternity, would it make sense (or alternatively, be tacky) to mention that you belonged to that fraternity? It obviously doesn't obligate the decision maker to choose you, but it gives him the chance to use it as a discriminator if your actual qualifications put you into the "acceptable" category.

I see this as something very similar except that the appeal of being a veteran, especially a wartime veteran, is considerably more broad than that of being a member of a fraternity.

[Sully]

Here's something to think about. If you were bidding on a job and you knew that one of the decision makers belonged to a particular fraternity, would it make sense (or alternatively, be tacky) to mention that you belonged to that fraternity? It obviously doesn't obligate the decision maker to choose you, but it gives him the chance to use it as a discriminator if your actual qualifications put you into the "acceptable" category.

I see this as something very similar except that the appeal of being a veteran, especially a wartime veteran, is considerably more broad than that of being a member of a fraternity.

Would your whole sales pitch be based on being in that fraternity? Would the "Headl;ine" on your resume be "I was in '___'"?

Mentioning, and depending on are two completely different things.

[Mile High Mania]

I don't see anything wrong with the ad... fireman do this type of thing all the time with their part time jobs. Some people will note that he is a former marine and give him business b/c of it... some will receive a sense of security with the guy.

It's all a part of his experience and he's using it. I don't see the big deal. If Phobia has similar credentials, yet he doesn't want to exploit the fact... that's his decision.

Now, if this other guy has the US flag and the like plastered all over his work vehicle and things like that... then, yeah... that is a bit over the top.

[crazycoffey]

KCJ is probably the reason why I've been as vocal about this, to be honest.


from the little I've heard of KCJ and interacted with him he fits into the normal vet view like Believer fits a real christians view.

Here's my last interaction with KCJ

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?p=3747868#post3747868


Keg - you do seem to have a pretty good head on your shoulders and that is respectable. So it's not who you are, or what you do as a profession, It's what you've done, we are all equal, but how you carry yourself says alot about your character, that is the angle I'm going for. As far as

sorry by the way I put you in a younger crowd, I'm 34, and as I said earlier it is your opinion to have, and I didn't try to take that from you either. I think it may be an agree to disagree type situation.

Phobia, I'm with you too, I don't flaunt my military status, or would probably not put it on my ad, because as much positive attention as it could garner, it also would bring negative attention. Someone on here said that the ad maker could lie about his service for business, the same could be said about who hires him....


final thing to Keg - The "opinion" comment, I made it a bit harsh, so I do appologize, but I wonder what you have in your life that you would die for. Family, a loved one. It takes a lot to put yourself in that scenerio even mentally, maybe like a movie scene where the dad pushes the son out of the way of an upcoming car and gets hit himself. Watching this (if you have children) you could probably associate yourself to that situation and say you could do the same thing. Whatever it is, there has to be something.

I think the thing that many people see in vets and maybe give them extra attention for (remember I said it is more like a tie breaker, not certification for a job or substitution for other qualifications) is that they can reckonize that same trait above, only that the service member put him/herself in that mental image of personal sacrifice for a country full of strangers and not just for a family member or loved one. Maybe this is what I meant, by saying you had a low opinion about something you didn't know much about.

I could be wrong, maybe you've saved a stranger and put your personal health at risk in some way, and you do know what I'm speaking of. I assumed you didn't from your comments and that is my fault, I should have acted more like Donger and asked 50 questions before I made a comment of my own. ;)

[crazycoffey]

I don't see anything wrong with the ad... fireman do this type of thing all the time with their part time jobs. Some people will note that he is a former marine and give him business b/c of it... some will receive a sense of security with the guy.

It's all a part of his experience and he's using it. I don't see the big deal. If Phobia has similar credentials, yet he doesn't want to exploit the fact... that's his decision.

Now, if this other guy has the US flag and the like plastered all over his work vehicle and things like that... then, yeah... that is a bit over the top.


we, at Chiefs Planet, are so lucky to have the smartest Donkey fan posting on a chief board..... :p

I put firemen, police officers, teachers, healthcare providers (even some Doctors for the most part, they work thier asses off) and Vets all in the same service catagory that you have to have the extra something to like what you do, and it's not being motivated by money alone (even in the cases of the doctors)

[Mile High Mania]

It's true ... you guys should count your blessings every day.

[patteeu]

Would your whole sales pitch be based on being in that fraternity? Would the "Headl;ine" on your resume be "I was in '___'"?

Mentioning, and depending on are two completely different things.

Whole sales pitch? You apparently didn't read the guys' ad or maybe you stopped when you saw that he was an Iraq war vet. That's fine, I'm sure the guy will lose some business to people like you, but I suspect that it's a net positive. It makes perfect sense to lead with your discriminator. Leading with something like the number of years you've been doing sheetrock or something similarly unspectacular (unless it's an unusually large number of course) isn't going to pull in any more than the random share of business.

And btw, even if his whole sales pitch was based on being a marine vet, what would be wrong with that in terms of taste? It might not be very effective because most people will want to know a little bit more about his qualifications, but what would be tasteless about it?

[Sully]

Whole sales pitch? You apparently didn't read the guys' ad or maybe you stopped when you saw that he was an Iraq war vet. That's fine, I'm sure the guy will lose some business to people like you, but I suspect that it's a net positive.


People like me?

You mean people that think a sales pitch should be somehow remotely related to what you are selling, rather than an emotional pitch using the hot topic of the day? Don't pretend that you know what would motivate me in such an instance.

[patteeu]

People like me?

You mean people that think a sales pitch should be somehow remotely related to what you are selling, rather than an emotional pitch using the hot topic of the day? Don't pretend that you know what would motivate me in such an instance.

Yes, people like you. People who, for whatever reason, see the inclusion of his veteran status as a negative. You still don't seem to have read the guy's full ad as he includes plenty of directly relevant qualifications in addition to the part that turned you off.

Disgusting attempt to try and demean me based on an unreasonable assumption. Wow. I respected you more than that.

Was my assumption that you'd be less likely to hire this guy because of the way his ad is put together, incorrect? Or are you talking about my assumption that you didn't read the ad completely? In either case, I think my assumptions are warranted based on what you've posted on the subject, but I'd be glad to hear anything you have to say by way of clarification.

[Phobia]

You are skirting the issue. Do you mention your military service in your portfolio?
No I don't. My portfolio is a picture of work I've done and doesn't really have a whole lot to do with me.

[Mile High Mania]

Bottom line in all of this is you have to sell yourself and your business. Some folks will take comfort with the fact that he is a former marine and that provides them with either a sense of comfort or gives them a feeling of supporting someone who gave something to his country.

In my opinion, it's neither right or wrong. He's advertising to appeal to a particular group of folks. Nothing more... nothing less.

[crazycoffey]

People like me?

You mean people that think a sales pitch should be somehow remotely related to what you are selling, rather than an emotional pitch using the hot topic of the day? Don't pretend that you know what would motivate me in such an instance.


are you sure you know what you are talking about and not just trying to start sh*t?

I sold office products for awhile and I gotta say, I was selling the same type paper and the same freaking pen as 30 other people, why would someone buy from me over the others? By relating to them personally, being someone they enjoy to talk to and enjoy helping out by buying from me.

A qualified contractor compared to another qualified contractor, both with 10 years of good service and a portfolio full of comlpleted jobs and letters from satisified customers, both willing and able to do the job you want done for the same price. Which one do you choose? The one you feel a commonality with, associate with in your conversation. Be it military service, college affiliation, or any other type of background event/location/association/religion/etc that matches one like you have.

Then remember, there are dozens of contractors to compare with and add to your decision making process.

To me, that is all the extra marketing / sales pitch refers to.

[Sully]

Yes, people like you. People who, for whatever reason, see the inclusion of his veteran status as a negative. You still don't seem to have read the guy's full ad as he includes plenty of directly relevant qualifications in addition to the part that turned you off.

Was my assumption that you'd be less likely to hire this guy because of the way his ad is put together, incorrect? Or are you talking about my assumption that you didn't read the ad completely? In either case, I think my assumptions are warranted based on what you've posted on the subject, but I'd be glad to hear anything you have to say by way of clarification.

Are you purposely misreading my posts to be a dick?
I have no problem with the INCLUSION of the status. I have never claimed such. I have made clear in previous posts that I don't have a problem with it being a part of a resume, or any other LIST of qualifications.

I have made no hint as to whether I would hire the guy or not. I certainly wouldn't (as I wouldn't expect any other reasonable person to do) hire him or not based on this one ad. But, being as you are who you are, you are going to try and make me into another of your "hate the troops" group.

[Mile High Mania]

No I don't. My portfolio is a picture of work I've done and doesn't really have a whole lot to do with me.

Probably a good move... :p

[Sully]

are you sure you know what you are talking about and not just trying to start sh*t?

I sold office products for awhile and I gotta say, I was selling the same type paper and the same freaking pen as 30 other people, why would someone buy from me over the others? By relating to them personally, being someone they enjoy to talk to and enjoy helping out by buying from me.

A qualified contractor compared to another qualified contractor, both with 10 years of good service and a portfolio full of comlpleted jobs and letters from satisified customers, both willing and able to do the job you want done for the same price. Which one do you choose? The one you feel a commonality with, associate with in your conversation. Be it military service, college affiliation, or any other type of background event/location/association/religion/etc that matches one like you have.

Then remember, there are dozens of contractors to compare with and add to your decision making process.

To me, that is all the extra marketing / sales pitch refers to.
LOL
Start shit?
I didn't start the thread. Read the first page of the thread and you will see many people who feel pretty much the same. So I don't see how I'm the one starting shit. I'm just saying that a lot of people (the ones so interested in making this about me being the bad guy) are overlooking the context here.
Using those types of things once you are in the door is great. I fully expect people to. But using them to get in the door is what is crass to me. It's a small line, but it's just the line I see.

[Phobia]

FWIW, you guys have softened my opinion on this somewhat. At first I was a bit horrified but I knew my opinion would be skewed because I am also a Marine Vet and would never do such a thing. I don't know why I feel so strongly about it. I guess I just think that Marine service is more sacred than to be dilluted in the form of an advertisement. I dunno.

[BucEyedPea]

Well, I am NOT a veteran, but I looked at from a different perspective. When I think of a veteran, I think of someone who works hard and makes sacrifices. I would probably pick this guy over another because of the vet status, but NOT out of pity. It would be because of an expectation of work ethic. I don't see the big deal, however, I realize maybe I would feel differently if I were a vet myself.
Interesting. I know a woman who works in HR. Without a doubt former military have hands down a better work ethic, in that age group per her. If she finds that to be true, then maybe it is a selling point especially knowing how many contractors are.

To those who brought up the point on contractor's advertising their religion. Some of those are scams too. I had one here whose quote was triple everyone elses. Guess he thought I was gonna put my faith in him and trust him.

Always get 3 bids.

[patteeu]

Are you purposely misreading my posts to be a dick?
I have no problem with the INCLUSION of the status. I have never claimed such. I have made clear in previous posts that I don't have a problem with it being a part of a resume, or any other LIST of qualifications.

I have made no hint as to whether I would hire the guy or not. I certainly wouldn't (as I wouldn't expect any other reasonable person to do) hire him or not based on this one ad. But, being as you are who you are, you are going to try and make me into another of your "hate the troops" group.

I think someone here is making some faulty assumptions. :rolleyes:

No, I'm not purposely misreading your posts, I'm just having trouble reconciling your statement here that you have no problem with this guy's use of his vet status in his ad with some of your earlier posts (e.g. your original post where you called it "ridiculous"). Like I said before, if you think I've misunderstood, feel free to clarify. To be honest, I'm not at all clear on where you stand on this ad at this point. It may be a comprehension problem on my part, but from where I sit, you seem to be hinting at your position rather than stating it clearly.

So, in order to avoid any more confusion, if all else were equal, would you hire this guy whose vet status is prominent on his ad or his competitor whose ad gives no indication whether or not he was a vet, and why?

[Sully]

So, in order to avoid any more confusion, if all else were equal, would you hire this guy whose vet status is prominent on his ad or his competitor whose ad gives no indication whether or not he was a vet, and why?

1) I DO think it's ridiculous to lead with this. I DO NOT and HAVE NEVER CLAIMED that it shouldn't be included. I have typed several times that to me it is about the context. I apologize if I didn't post that enough times for you to notice.

2) The fact of his having or not having the ad would have ABSOLUTELY 0 (ZERO) effect on whether I would hire him or not. None. Not even a little bit. Is that clear? Is there any way I can make it more clear for you?

[patteeu]

1) I DO think it's ridiculous to lead with this. I DO NOT and HAVE NEVER CLAIMED that it shouldn't be included. I have typed several times that to me it is about the context. I apologize if I didn't post that enough times for you to notice.

2) The fact of his having or not having the ad would have ABSOLUTELY 0 (ZERO) effect on whether I would hire him or not. None. Not even a little bit. Is that clear? Is there any way I can make it more clear for you?

So it's ridiculous, but it will have no effect on you. Got it. I hope that you can appreciate how hard it is to understand that you can simultaneously take both of those positions, but now that you've clarified, I will take you at your word.

[Sully]

So it's ridiculous, but it will have no effect on you. Got it. I hope that you can appreciate how hard it is to understand that you can simultaneously take both of those positions, but now that you've clarified, I will take you at your word.

I understan it is your way to take one statement, ignore the rest, and pretend that any calrificatins that were made after the fact didn't happen, and try to fit it into your ideology.

Thanks, though.

[patteeu]

I understan it is your way to take one statement, ignore the rest, and pretend that any calrificatins that were made after the fact didn't happen, and try to fit it into your ideology.

Thanks, though.

Yeah, that's my way. :rolleyes:

And your way appears to be to straddle fences, hint at your position without really taking a stand, and then to get emotional and indignant about it when someone "misunderstands" what's in your heart, all the while feigning moral superiority. I guess we've got each other sized up.

[Sully]

Yeah, that's my way. :rolleyes:

And your way appears to be to straddle fences, hint at your position without really taking a stand, and then to get emotional and indignant about it when someone "misunderstands" what's in your heart, all the while feigning moral superiority. I guess we've got each other sized up.
If you can tell me which fence I've straddled, please let me know.

[bogie]

Haven't read the entire thread. I don't understand the difference between mentioning your Military experience in a Craigslist job add or on your resume.

[Sully]

Haven't read the entire thread. I don't understand the difference between mentioning your Military experience in a Craigslist job add or on your resume.

Mentioning= No problem
Headline= Little tacky

[Jenson71]

I think it's good to mention in your resume, but I can somewhat understand Phil's reaction since it was "the hook"

[bogie]

Mentioning= No problem
Headline= Little tacky

Since I'm not a Marine I can't understand. Were this guy legit, which I question, he would seem proud to me.

[bogie]

I think it's good to mention in your resume, but I can somewhat understand Phil's reaction since it was "the hook"

What's wrong with using it as a hook, if he's legit? It's a positive statement on his character isn't it?

[Mile High Mania]

It's all about marketing yourself... I'm very surprised this has been debated as much as it has around here.

[Jenson71]

What's wrong with using it as a hook, if he's legit? It's a positive statement on his character isn't it?

Nothing. I'm just saying I see where Phil could be defensive about that. I don't have a problem with it, though.

[Mile High Mania]

The guy is looking for a target audience... it happens, otherwise everyone in that space would have a generic statement of "Hi, I do XYZ for a living. I'm good and I have references, please call for an estimate."

[Phobia]

What's wrong with using it as a hook, if he's legit? It's a positive statement on his character isn't it?

That's my problem with it. No, it's not a statement about his character whatsoever. There's just as many poor character Marines as there are in any other segment of society. He's cashing in on the fact that he used to be a Marine. I'm just not fond of the practice, though I now understand it more and am less judgemental thanks to those insights offered within this thread.

[crazycoffey]

........, though I now understand it more and am less judgemental thanks to those insights offered within this thread, mostly by crazycoffey.




Your so Welcome, thanks for the props, Phobia.....


:p

[bogie]

That's my problem with it. No, it's not a statement about his character whatsoever. There's just as many poor character Marines as there are in any other segment of society. He's cashing in on the fact that he used to be a Marine. I'm just not fond of the practice, though I now understand it more and am less judgemental thanks to those insights offered within this thread.

I understand that just because he's a Marine doesn't mean he lacks poor character. I understand that this leaves a bad taste in your mouth though. For what it's worth, me being a civilian, my first impression would be thanks for protecting my country. Bringing you in for an interview because you served, is my little way of giving back. Using the Military opened a door. I'll be able to determine your character in the interview.

[HemiEd]

You would think so. But some of them are dumb, so they joined the marines.

Finally, some truth about the Grunts! :D


I learned a long time ago to be very cautous with people that lead with this kind thing. I don't like it, and have found that it is usually a cover up, for something not so desirable.

[Jenson71]

I'd listen to HemiEd. After I found out he killed 13 Vietcong with his bare hands and a knife, I think I'd hire him (anything to make sure he didn't get pissed at me)

[patteeu]

If you can tell me which fence I've straddled, please let me know.

You didn't say which guy you'd hire if everything but the marine vet reference was the same. You emphatically said that that reference would have "ABSOLUTELY 0 (ZERO)" impact on your decision so I'm taking you at your word.

[patteeu]

There's just as many poor character Marines as there are in any other segment of society.

What about the used car salesman segment? Politicians? Pedophiles? LAWYERS!!!? ;) LMAO

[Phobia]

What about the used car salesman segment? Politicians? Pedophiles? LAWYERS!!!? ;) LMAO

Maybe not lawyers.

[Sully]

You didn't say which guy you'd hire if everything but the marine vet reference was the same. You emphatically said that that reference would have "ABSOLUTELY 0 (ZERO)" impact on your decision so I'm taking you at your word.
By not deciding on hiring a guy without knowing the merits of his work makes me a fence straddler?
Wow.

[patteeu]

By not deciding on hiring a guy without knowing the merits of his work makes me a fence straddler?
Wow.

If you don't want to make a choice, that's cool, just say it. Or don't, whatever. But don't pretend that you don't have enough information though. "If all else were equal..." means that there isn't anything more you can find out about the merits of his work that will distinguish him from the other option. It's not really that complicated.

[patteeu]

Maybe not lawyers.

Yeah, that's the one that really shocked me. :)

[Marcellus]

I voted for a former Texas Air National Guardsman for president.

That worked out....Why not hire a Marine to remodel?

Nevermind. :)

[jettio]

I did not know that they taught all of those marketable trade skills in the Marine Corps.

I thought all they taught was how to kill and storm the beach without getting sand in their skivvies.

Phobia is kind of a renaissance Marine with knowing how to build things and all of that rosemary herb parmesan vinaigrette garnishing with cilantro and sh*t, but that is about enough.

Unless I wanted someone to hang wallpaper with a nailgun, I would not hire somebody just because he/she learned how to sh*t, shower and shave in five minutes.