Fixing this mess

[Rain Man]

Let's put players into one of four buckets over the next five years:


Group 1. Young, ascending, and will be in or near their prime in five years

QB (Cassel)
WR (Bowe)
T (Albert)
K (Succop)
P (Colquitt)
CB (Flowers)
CB (Carr)
ILB (Mays)
DE (Jackson)
DE (Dorsey)

Group 2. At their peak now, but will be past their prime in five years.

WR (Bradley)
TE (Ryan)
FS (Page)
ILB (Williams)

Group 3. Young, ascending, but probably not a long term answer
FB (Cox)
T (O'Callaghan)
C (Niswanger)
KR/PR (Charles)
OLB (Hali)

Group 4. Past their peak now and will be retired in five years.
HB (Johnson)
G (Waters)
G (Goff)
SS (Brown)
OLB (Vrabel)
NT (Edwards)


You can agree or disagree with me about the buckets, but based on what I see right now, we need to replace/upgrade at least 6 positions (Group 4) just to break even. To improve, about 15 positions to be replaced (Groups 2, 3, and 4), and that's not assuming any injuries in Group 1. This means getting 3 quality starters every year, which may be possible, but would be difficult.

If we did that on a regular basis, this means that we'd have to have upgrades like this (roughly)

2010 - G, OLB, NT
2011 - G, HB, SS
2012 - C, T, WR
2013 - FB, OLB, KR/PR
2014 - FS, ILB, TE
...and assume that everyone in Group 1 continues to do well.

This seems like a tall order.

[T-post Tom]

I agree that fixing this mess will be a tall order. That said, you might be a little too liberal in your use of "ascending." But you make a good point.

[cdcox]

If Hunt and Pioli read Chiefs Planet, they are now in full panic mode.

"We've lost Rain Man."

[Rain Man]

Yeah, "ascending" may well mean ascending toward mediocre. Some of those guys will likely have to be replaced due to stagnation or injury on top of Groups 2, 3, and 4.

[Rain Man]

If Hunt and Pioli read Chiefs Planet, they are now in full panic mode.

"We've lost Rain Man."



No, no, I am retaining my faith. It's kind of like the Battle of Britain, though, where Churchill is in the bunker trying to figure out next steps and Lend-Lease and how to get rid of the V-1's and how many people actually got out of Dunkirk.

[kysirsoze]

If Hunt and Pioli read Chiefs Planet, they are now in full panic mode.

"We've lost Rain Man."

LMAO

[T-post Tom]

Yeah, "ascending" may well mean ascending toward mediocre. Some of those guys will likely have to be replaced due to stagnation or injury on top of Groups 2, 3, and 4.


This team has at least nine circles of mediocrity. And Haley is our current Virgil.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

No, no, I am retaining my faith. It's kind of like the Battle of Britain, though, where Churchill is in the bunker trying to figure out next steps and Lend-Lease and how to get rid of the V-1's and how many people actually got out of Dunkirk.

To be fair, Churchill didn't have to worry about the V-1's until 1944. Even his situation wasn't this bleak.

[Rain Man]

To be fair, Churchill didn't have to worry about the V-1's until 1944. Even his situation wasn't this bleak.

I was trying to remember when they came around.

I think we need the Broncos to sneak attack USC and bring them into the war.

[Saccopoo]

To be fair, Churchill didn't have to worry about the V-1's until 1944. Even his situation wasn't this bleak.

Yeah, but then the Huns started in with the V2s. We're about in that general "this shit is starting to suck" vicinity.

[T-post Tom]

"Fixing this mess" also includes evaluation of the coaching staff. Based soley on the lack of adjustments that I saw today, "descending" is the new black in coaching at Arrowhead.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

There are players who aren't starting now, or who are role players, who could be long term answers, since a team isn't just 22 players.

DaJuan Morgan, Alex Magee, Tank Tyler are the three that first pop to mind.

The other thing to consider is the importance of playmakers. One really good player can mask an inferior one. A guy like Albert Haynesworth, for example, made everyone else on that Titans D-Line better.

Taylor Mays makes the entire SC secondary better. Ray Lewis, at one point in his career, made the entire Ravens LB corps better. Troy Polamalu makes Pitt's entire defense better.

If we could get a playmaker in the secondary at the top of this draft, and find another guy who can help change the game by getting to the passer, and find a NT who can hold the POA, then this defense will be largely fixed.

We need a deep threat to take the pressure off Bowe and get rid of the bracket coverage. That, along with solidifying the interior offensive line, and a servicable HB, will fix this O, provided that Cassel is an answer at QB.

This team needs to find 15 guys over the next three drafts who can contribute to a winning team. That means that we need to hit on about 3/4 of our draft picks.

That's a very tall order.

[salame]

carr belongs in group 3

[Saccopoo]

There are players who aren't starting now, or who are role players, who could be long term answers, since a team isn't just 22 players.

DaJuan Morgan, Alex Magee, Tank Tyler are the three that first pop to mind.

The other thing to consider is the importance of playmakers. One really good player can mask an inferior one. A guy like Albert Haynesworth, for example, made everyone else on that Titans D-Line better.

Taylor Mays makes the entire SC secondary better. Ray Lewis, at one point in his career, made the entire Ravens LB corps better. Troy Polamalu makes Pitt's entire defense better.

If we could get a playmaker in the secondary at the top of this draft, and find another guy who can help change the game by getting to the passer, and find a NT who can hold the POA, then this defense will be largely fixed.

We need a deep threat to take the pressure off Bowe and get rid of the bracket coverage. That, along with solidifying the interior offensive line, and a servicable HB, will fix this O, provided that Cassel is an answer at QB.

This team needs to find 15 guys over the next three drafts who can contribute to a winning team. That means that we need to hit on about 3/4 of our draft picks.

That's a very tall order.

That sounds about right, but you've got to agree that Corey Mays and Demarrio Williams are anything but a stop gap at the ILB/MLB position. I like Mays aggressiveness, but neither shows a natural inclination to locate the ball or anticipate a play as it develops. And both are below mediocre in run and pass support. Williams is almost non-existant out there.

I know it's not in line with the current fascination of the Mayberry, but I'd argue that these positions are even more important than the safety position, especially in a 3-4 alignment.

I think Belcher looks good when he's been given the chance, and might eventually fill the need at MLB, but we desperately need a high quality ILB.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

That sounds about right, but you've got to agree that Corey Mays and Demarrio Williams are anything but a stop gap at the ILB/MLB position. I like Mays aggressiveness, but neither shows a natural inclination to locate the ball or anticipate a play as it develops. And both are below mediocre in run and pass support. Williams is almost non-existant out there.

I know it's not in line with the current fascination of the Mayberry, but I'd argue that these positions are even more important than the safety position, especially in a 3-4 alignment.

I think Belcher looks good when he's been given the chance, and might eventually fill the need at MLB, but we desperately need a high quality ILB.

Meh. Really, look at all the Steeler defenses of the last several years. They've swapped those ILBs out like interchangeable parts. I think we need to get an entirely new LB corps (save for Tamba, he can be a serviceable rotation player), but I wouldn't worry about spending really high picks on the inside backers. They are the RBs of the defense. You can find them all over the draft, and they can produce quite well.

[Buehler445]

Meh. Really, look at all the Steeler defenses of the last several years. They've swapped those ILBs out like interchangeable parts. I think we need to get an entirely new LB corps (save for Tamba, he can be a serviceable rotation player), but I wouldn't worry about spending really high picks on the inside backers. They are the RBs of the defense. You can find them all over the draft, and they can produce quite well.

But we need to TAKE them later in the draft and not fill them with UDFA and waiver wire picks.

[T-post Tom]

...
The other thing to consider is the importance of playmakers. One really good player can mask an inferior one. A guy like Jared Allen or Tony Gonzalez.


FYP :doh!:

[MichaelH]

Fixing this mess has been an ongoing project for 20 years. Maybe they'll get it fixed when the Democrats get their healthcare biil passed.

[the Talking Can]

we have to augment the process with FA's...

if we don't throw some coin around next year for even some mid level free agents OL/LB/WR/RB then we have an even bigger problem: Clark Hunt...

nice to bring in a new staff and even a new contract for a QB, but we have to spend money, being 30 mill under the cap is no longer acceptable from a franchise that claims to want to win...

between a draft with 3 picks in the first two rounds and 30 mil in cap space we should expect 5 new quality starters on this team of either high potential (based on draft) or high production (based on FA)...

we'll know, imo, for sure if a) Halioli are in over their head or b) Clark is too tight to fund a winner or c) everyone is on the same page and willing to spend what it takes to win...

[CHIEFS58]

i dont even know what to say. im in complete shock after yesterday. i certainly dont know what needs to be done, and im not sure anyone does. im just numb.

[ChiTown]

Meh. Really, look at all the Steeler defenses of the last several years. They've swapped those ILBs out like interchangeable parts. I think we need to get an entirely new LB corps (save for Tamba, he can be a serviceable rotation player), but I wouldn't worry about spending really high picks on the inside backers. They are the RBs of the defense. You can find them all over the draft, and they can produce quite well.

+1

[Phobia]

You know you're scraping the bottom of the talent barrel when your K and P are invoked on the future of the franchise list.

[Extra Point]

How about fixing the defensive hole in the 5-15 yds middle past the LOS?

[Phobia]

How about fixing the defensive hole in the 5-15 yds middle past the LOS?

The real answer lies in putting your fastest and most talented linebacker on the bench. I know it seems counter-productive but it seems to be working really well.

[CoMoChief]

Hali, Charles, and Page should be in that first group.

[CoMoChief]

Here's what I would keep. And release everyone else. Cut all the dead weight.

QB (Cassel)
WR (Bowe)
LT (Albert)
LG (Waters)
K (Succop)
P (Colquitt)
CB (Flowers)
CB (Carr)
ILB (Mays)
DE (Jackson)
DE (Dorsey)
OLB (Hali)
ILB (D.Johnson)
FS (Page)
HB/KR (Charles)
HB (Savage)
CB (Leggett)
FS (Morgan)
CB (Washington)
QB (Croyle)
WR (Wade)
WR (Bradley)
NT (Tyler)
DE (McGee)
ILB (Belcher)

[HC_Chief]

The real answer lies in putting your fastest and most talented linebacker on the bench. I know it seems counter-productive but it seems to be working really well.

I don't get people's facination with DJ. He has NEVER been a productive player in KC. As a matter of fact, he is worthy of the BUST monicre IMO.

He was a good/great college LB but has been nothing but disappointing in the pros.

[TEX]

The place to start to fix siad mess is the OL. That should have been where they started this season. Even with the new regime, we're behind in the process as usual...

[HC_Chief]

The place to start to fix siad mess is the OL. That should have been where they started this season. Even with the new regime, we're behind in the process as usual...

THIS.
We should have drafted OL heavy and also brought in a bunch of vets. Anyone who watched any tape of the past several seasons would have seen the glaring weakness there.

After that, we need LBs, a NT, and WIDE RECEIVERS (I like Wade and Bowe, the rest can be and should be replaced).

[CoMoChief]

I don't get people's facination with DJ. He has NEVER been a productive player in KC. As a matter of fact, he is worthy of the BUST monicre IMO.

He was a good/great college LB but has been nothing but disappointing in the pros.

Is DJ Ray Lewis.....no. But he's clearly the best or 2nd best defender this team has besides Flowers. This team has lack of talent for sure. But not playing DJ is just a horrible move by Haley.

[HC_Chief]

Is DJ Ray Lewis.....no. But he's clearly the best or 2nd best defender this team has besides Flowers. This team has lack of talent for sure. But not playing DJ is just a horrible move by Haley.

:spock:
On what do you base that claim? DJ has never amounted to shit here. Sure he's fast, but he's constantly out of position or running past plays.

Comparing DJ to Flowers is an insult to Flowers! That kid can play. DJ, not so much.

Now, is DJ better than Demario Williams? Maybe. Obviously he is doing something wrong or is injured (again) because he sure as hell isn't seeing the playing field.

I think people are screaming for DJ because they are desperate for something, ANYTHING to spark this team. I'm sorry, but DJ is not it. He is no panacea... he is a bust.

[TEX]

:spock:
On what do you base that claim? DJ has never amounted to shit here. Sure he's fast, but he's constantly out of position or running past plays.

Comparing DJ to Flowers is an insult to Flowers! That kid can play. DJ, not so much.

Now, is DJ better than Demario Williams? Maybe. Obviously he is doing something wrong or is injured (again) because he sure as hell isn't seeing the playing field.

I think people are screaming for DJ because they are desperate for something, ANYTHING to spark this team. I'm sorry, but DJ is not it. He is no panacea... he is a bust.

How many big plays has the defense had this year? How many has DJ made in his limited time on the field. Fact is this year, he HAS made a difference when playing.

[HC_Chief]

How many big plays has the defense had this year? How many has DJ made in his limited time on the field. Fact is this year, he HAS made a difference when playing.

One.

Like I said, he may be better than Williams... I tend to think so, but the coaching staff must not agree; or DJ is injured again.

[CoMoChief]

How many big plays has the defense had this year? How many has DJ made in his limited time on the field. Fact is this year, he HAS made a difference when playing.

apparantly he didn't watch the BAL game.

[HC_Chief]

apparantly he didn't watch the BAL game.

You mean the game wher eour defense gave up 500+ yards?

Wow, we were so much better with DJ starting!!!!11!eleven :rolleyes:

Again, grasping at anything. DJ won't fix this shit. Hell, I'd be surprised if the D showed any improvement at all with him in there. My bet is he would play, the D would suck, and it would take people a while to realize he did indeed play, but didn't do shit... as usual.

[dallaschiefsfan]

Yeah...you could look at this list and it looks daunting, but I don't think it's this bleak. Sure most of those latter category players stink...but trying to replace every damn position that's weak is a back-assward way of approaching this.

All you have to do is find 1-2 major play-makers on each side of the ball at ANY position and it will elevate the play of even some of our scrubs. Case in point--Bryan effing Waters. He's our "best lineman". I think he's grossly overrated. He made a living being a great left guard mostly while playing beside Roaf w/ Shields on the other side. GREAT players elevate the whole team. We need to focus on finding play-makers on both sides of the ball instead of just "plugging holes" all the holes.

[TennisMenace]

As bad as things are, Chiefs still should have at least two wins (2-3).

As mentioned on another thread, might as well beging to evaluate the bench players who have potential, like Charles. This kid is so explosive, how can he not get more touches?

[HC_Chief]

As bad as things are, Chiefs still should have at least two wins (2-3).

As mentioned on another thread, might as well beging to evaluate the bench players who have potential, like Charles. This kid is so explosive, how can he not get more touches?

Charles and Savage. They both show speed and explosiveness (is that a word?).

Charles has GOT TO STOP FUMBLING! That's the only knock anyone can have on him.

[Coach]

It won't matter who are our linebackers are, because the Chiefs lack a true NT that can command the double team.

The Chiefs also need to find some pass-rushers in a bad way, because in only 5 games, they have 6 sacks as a team.

[TennisMenace]

Charles and Savage. They both show speed and explosiveness (is that a word?).

Charles has GOT TO STOP FUMBLING! That's the only knock anyone can have on him.

He's only lost one this year - on a kickoff at that. If he plays RB more, take him off running back kicks.

Someone should get him to call Tiki Barber and have Tiki show him how to hold the ball when carrying it. It's easy, and it worked for Tiki.

[Hoover]

we have to augment the process with FA's...

if we don't throw some coin around next year for even some mid level free agents OL/LB/WR/RB then we have an even bigger problem: Clark Hunt...

nice to bring in a new staff and even a new contract for a QB, but we have to spend money, being 30 mill under the cap is no longer acceptable from a franchise that claims to want to win...

between a draft with 3 picks in the first two rounds and 30 mil in cap space we should expect 5 new quality starters on this team of either high potential (based on draft) or high production (based on FA)...

we'll know, imo, for sure if a) Halioli are in over their head or b) Clark is too tight to fund a winner or c) everyone is on the same page and willing to spend what it takes to win...

This.

Look we have so many holes that if we must become more active in free agency if we are going to turn this team around. We need to draft and develop our offensive line. In terms of TE, RB, and WRs, we should go the FA route for now.

On Defense we have many more pieces in place. But we still need a dominate playmaker on that side of the ball.

If I were Pioli my draft board would look like this.

RD 1 - Playmaker, if Mays is there I take the kid and build a dominate defense. We simply can not afford to use our top pick on a RT, LB, or WR.

RD 2 - Oline
RD 2 - Oline

RD 3 - Playmaker, either side of the ball. Give me a WR, RB, LB, whatever.

We need three starters out of the next draft and two of those guys need to be linemen. I think the biggest need on this team in OC. With our two 2nd round picks we need to look there. We can plug and play at guard, but having a swinging gate at RT and having a Center who cannot control the LOS kills this team.

[MahiMike]

Well, a couple things:

1) I think you need a 5th bucket for "Playmakers" to go along with what someone said about Haynesworth-type guys elevating the rest of the group. If we had an Ed Reed in our secondary, our CB's wouldn't have lost that game yesterday. Instead, they can continue to go for the picks (which is essential right now) and not worry about their backup. A Marion Barber-type back would make that OL look a little less putrid, etc. Speaking of RB's: I'd like to see what we have in Savage and Charles the rest of this season. Make LJ play special teams, waterboy or jock washer.

2) As I watched the game yesterday, I thought our defense looked really good in the 1st half. I was wondering how many of these guys are getting valuable playing experience vs. being cut next year. I think your time-frame is based on the draft alone. Mixing in FA's, the time can be cut in half.

[Phobia]

I don't get people's facination with DJ. He has NEVER been a productive player in KC. As a matter of fact, he is worthy of the BUST monicre IMO.

He was a good/great college LB but has been nothing but disappointing in the pros.

Who says I'm fascinated? My post is an indictment on the talent level available on defense. I've never been a huge DJ fan. I have high hopes - even still but he's clearly been a major disappointment. I still think he should be on the field.

[Titty Meat]

There are players who aren't starting now, or who are role players, who could be long term answers, since a team isn't just 22 players.

DaJuan Morgan, Alex Magee, Tank Tyler are the three that first pop to mind.

The other thing to consider is the importance of playmakers. One really good player can mask an inferior one. A guy like Albert Haynesworth, for example, made everyone else on that Titans D-Line better.

Taylor Mays makes the entire SC secondary better. Ray Lewis, at one point in his career, made the entire Ravens LB corps better. Troy Polamalu makes Pitt's entire defense better.

If we could get a playmaker in the secondary at the top of this draft, and find another guy who can help change the game by getting to the passer, and find a NT who can hold the POA, then this defense will be largely fixed.

We need a deep threat to take the pressure off Bowe and get rid of the bracket coverage. That, along with solidifying the interior offensive line, and a servicable HB, will fix this O, provided that Cassel is an answer at QB.

This team needs to find 15 guys over the next three drafts who can contribute to a winning team. That means that we need to hit on about 3/4 of our draft picks.

That's a very tall order.


I've always appreciated your insight on football even though we disagree. Would you spend money on a guy like Julius Peppers? Honestly I don't think the defense will be fixed until Pendgerast is fired. In the last 4 close games of his career his defense has blown each of them. The Chiefs should hire a guy like Wade Phillips.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I've always appreciated your insight on football even though we disagree. Would you spend money on a guy like Julius Peppers? Honestly I don't think the defense will be fixed until Pendgerast is fired. In the last 4 close games of his career his defense has blown each of them. The Chiefs should hire a guy like Wade Phillips.

I don't trust a guy like Julius Peppers. He hasn't been the same player for a while, and he's a really undisciplined player. If you watched the MNF game they had against the Cowboys, he repeatedly lost outside containment because he was crashing down so hard. That's just an inexcusable mistake for a 9th year player.

He definitely has the athleticism to play standing up, but I worry about how coachable and how motivated he would be coming off of a big payday. Look at his stats over the last 5 years. There's a lot of shit sandwiched around one good year.

If we want to fix the ILB, I would take a long hard look at Thomas Davis. He's an excellent cover backer, and he can make plays in the backfield and passing game.

I don't know if they are coming free, but DeMeco Ryans, Lofa Tatupu are other option, if they haven't reupped.

[HemiEd]

The Chiefs also need to find some pass-rushers in a bad way, because in only 5 games, they have 6 sacks as a team.

Well that is a huge improvement over last year. Spending the first two picks on DEs must be paying off.

[Dave Lane]

Pioli says:

"Put your confidence in us. Give us your faith and your blessing, and under Providence all will be well. We shall not fail or falter. We shall not weaken or tire. Neither the sudden shock of battle nor the long-drawn trials of vigilance and exertion will wear us down. Give us the tools and we will finish the job."


or maybe that was Churchill...

[Dave Lane]

No, no, I am retaining my faith. It's kind of like the Battle of Britain, though, where Churchill is in the bunker trying to figure out next steps and Lend-Lease and how to get rid of the V-1's and how many people actually got out of Dunkirk.

Here you go the full transcript for Rain Man

[philfree]

I don't trust a guy like Julius Peppers. He hasn't been the same player for a while, and he's a really undisciplined player. If you watched the MNF game they had against the Cowboys, he repeatedly lost outside containment because he was crashing down so hard. That's just an inexcusable mistake for a 9th year player.

He definitely has the athleticism to play standing up, but I worry about how coachable and how motivated he would be coming off of a big payday. Look at his stats over the last 5 years. There's a lot of shit sandwiched around one good year.

If we want to fix the ILB, I would take a long hard look at Thomas Davis. He's an excellent cover backer, and he can make plays in the backfield and passing game.

I don't know if they are coming free, but DeMeco Ryans, Lofa Tatupu are other option, if they haven't reupped.

That's who I wanted before DJ fell "to us"?. Maybe it was on us.


PhilFree:arrow:

[Dave Lane]

That's who I wanted before DJ fell "to us"?. Maybe it was on us.


PhilFree:arrow:

He was gone before we picked...

[philfree]

He was gone before we picked...

Leading up to the draft.

PhilFree:arrow: