what's with all the Orton isn't the answer talk?

[FringeNC]

in Cassel's "magical season" he averaged 200 yards per game, completed only 58% of his passes, barely threw for 3000 yards and helmed the 30th rated passing attack in the league...


meanwhile Charles had the second highest yards per carry in nfl history...

Cassel is a joke

All of Cassel's high QB rating was embedded in his TD/Int rate, which is really noisy. As the Grantland article made clear, Cassel is the fucking worst QB in the league who has attempted 1000 passes over the last 3 years. Yet we still get these morons that use "magical" and "Cassel" in the same sentence. Cassel is garbage.

[htismaqe]

in Cassel's "magical season" he averaged 200 yards per game, completed only 58% of his passes, barely threw for 3000 yards and helmed the 30th rated passing attack in the league...


meanwhile Charles had the second highest yards per carry in nfl history..,

Oopsie...:redface:

[Beef Supreme]

Cassel is magical. How else can you explain how he managed to make multiple millions of dollars and keep his starting job despite his tremendously piss poor play?

[RealSNR]

Made of weed? Seriously, Cassel had a magical season last year. If he had the o line and run game Green had, we'd of beat Baltimore last year in the playoffs.LMAO LMAO LMAO

I don't usually do the age smack thing, but you have GOT to be 12 years old. Or younger.

I remember when I was that young and the Chiefs had the best QB in the league and would win all their games including the Super Bowl. Fun times.

[milkman]

Great receivers can help elevate a QB. Bowe hasn't had a TD in 9 games. Gonzo had crap throwing to him for many games and was still able to consistently beat double and triple teams.

Good receivers can help elevate a QB.

But you have to have at least a mediocre ability to elevate.

Cassel and Palko can only strive for mediocrity.



Exactly!

Bowe drops a lot of crucial balls.
Breaston has been pretty good.
Baldwin is still unknown. I've seen him "Almost" make some circus catches, but almost doesn't get you anywhere.

The Packer receivers lead the league in drops, according to stat posted elsewhere.
But no one realizes this, because Rodgers has been so spectacular that it masks that fact.

Rodgers had an off game against the Chiefs, and it is not solely because of the defense.

Both McDaniels and Pioli felt Cassel was a franchise. Nobody has any idea if they still feel that way.

People keep talking about Pioli being too stubborn to move on from players, but where is the proof? He's parted ways pretty quickly with early draft picks like Magee. He hasn't forced coaches to keep free agent acquisitions that they didn't want - he must have brought in at least 8 WRs in 3 years.

Yeah, cause 3rd round picks and scrubs off the scrap heap are = to trading for a guy that you think is your franchise QB and signing him to a huge contract.

I dont think Orton can be a top 5 quarterback, but with the weapons around him and this defense with Berry back, we can be a pretender.

FYP


No idea who "Carl Peterson" is

Really?

Were you born yesterday?

Sorry, but I don't rate Cassel as high as "adequate." Or Thigpen. Or Huard. Trent Green was the last KC QB even in that range.

Looking back thru the Chiefs draft history back to 1960, the only QBs who's names I recognize are Brody Croyle and Steve Fuller. Fuller was a good backup for Jim McMahon on the Super Bowl Bears of the 80s. That's the absolute best they've ever done at drafting the QB position.

KC just doesn't have any history of being able to draft a QB at all. Yet now, that's exactly what you want to risk the team's next 4-5 years on...

Well, since this franchise has only drafted a first round QB a total of 4 times in it's history, they haven't actually shown that they can't draft QB.

And the only names you recognize are Fuller and Croyle?

Todd Blackledge?

Really?
Were you born yesterday?


Made of weed? Seriously, Cassel had a magical season last year. If he had the o line and run game Green had, we'd of beat Baltimore last year in the playoffs.

:facepalm:

[patteeu]

So? Manning was slinging the ball to Harrison, Wayne, and Clark during that time and was the only QB to throw for more yards over a couple years span Green was in KC.

So... Trent Green is no Peyton Manning. He was a decent quarterback in a great situation. He wasn't the "stud" that BigChiefTablet and others think he was.

[bricks]

Cassel and Haley have been fortunate to be surrounded by good casts throughout most of their careers.

Cassel had a great wide receiver corps in New England with Moss and Welker and a good defense around him with a good coaching staff. Last year in KC he was surrounded with a similar situation, except Todd Haley is not a great coach. Last year he had great running game, good defense behind him and a great offensive coordinator in Charlie Weis.

I think that pretty much explains why he had a productive season because he was surrounded with a good cast.

Take Todd Haley throughout his career he's been blessed with great wide receivers in Keyshawn, Owens, Booker, Fitzgerald, Boldin. Yeah he had a good wide receiving corps in Arizona but he also had a great quarterback in Kurt Warner and he ran an offense that was under Ken Whisenhunt.

This year was truly a message to reveal how shit Todd Haley and Matt Cassel really are. Especially when they had to do things independently by themselves. Charles goes down, Moeaki gets hurt, Weis leaves, the schedule isn't as soft, look what happens? you see how crap they really are. Those guys have had their weaknesses masked throughout most of their careers. At least Pioli did something right by firing Haley. Now if he keeps Cassel he is simply a moron.

[milkman]

Cassel and Haley have been fortunate to be surrounded by good casts throughout most of their careers.

Cassel had a great wide receiver corps in New England with Moss and Welker and a good defense around him with a good coaching staff. Last year in KC he was surrounded with a similar situation, except Todd Haley is not a great coach. Last year he had great running game, good defense behind him and a great offensive coordinator in Charlie Weis.

I think that pretty much explains why he had a productive season because he was surrounded with a good cast.

Take Todd Haley throughout his career he's been blessed with great wide receivers in Keyshawn, Owens, Booker, Fitzgerald, Boldin. Yeah he had a good wide receiving corps in Arizona but he also had a great quarterback in Kurt Warner and he ran an offense that was under Ken Whisenhunt.

This year was truly a message to reveal how shit Todd Haley and Matt Cassel really are. Especially when they had to do things independently by themselves. Charles goes down, Moeaki gets hurt, Weis leaves, the schedule isn't as soft, look what happens? you see how crap they really are. Those guys have had their weaknesses masked throughout most of their careers. At least Pioli did something right by firing Haley. Now if he keeps Cassel he is simply a moron.

Any perceived improvement is Cassel's play since he's been a Chief has been the direct result of Charles in the lineup.

Take Charles out of the lineup, and Cassel's suckiness is on full display.

[wutamess]

Lets not get too confused about who Trent Green is here... his first season here... he didn't have the arm strength and was labeled TrINT by almost everyone. Years following priest Holmes bailed his ass out by taking his dumpoffs to the house. Trent has NEVER been an all on his shoulders QB as he was aided by an excellent O-Line and above avg surrounding cast. He went 20 yards DOWN FIELD unless it was up the seam to Gonzo and maybe a bomb to EK. His 4000/year numbers were inflated by YAC #'s. Not by actually going down the field.

YAC per reception - 2002 season
Trent Green 6.33
Rich Gannon 5.65
Mark Brunell 5.45
Joey Harrington 5.41

% of passing yards AFTER the catch!
Tom Brady 52.66
Joey Harrington 50.74
Rich Gannon 50.35
Trent Green 49.24

Here are the YAC stats for receivers
1 Priest Holmes KC 774
2 Charlie Garner Oak 769
3 Terrell Owens SF 599

For Green

15.1% of attempts were behind LOS


Read more: http://forums.kffl.com/threads/129596-Matt-Hasselbeck-vs-Trent-Green/page3?#ixzz1hBkQrGgl

What might be of particular interest to Chiefs fans reading the article is a perceived slight of former two-time Pro Bowl and Super Bowl champion quarterback Trent Green, both by Murphy and Gonzalez.

"The numbers the tight end (Gonzalez) put up in Kansas City, year after year, are all the more impressive considering that he never worked with a topflight quarterback," says Murphy.

[The Franchise]

Made of weed? Seriously, Cassel had a magical season last year. If he had the o line and run game Green had, we'd of beat Baltimore last year in the playoffs.

That was magical season? ROFL

[The Franchise]

Lets not get too confused about who Trent Green is here... his first season here... he didn't have the amr strength and was labled TrINT by almost everyone. Years following priest Holmes bailed his ass out by taking his dumpoffs to the house. Trent has NEVER been an all on his shoulders QB as he was aided by an excellent O-Line and above avg surrounding cast. He went 20 yards DOWN FIELD unless it was up the seam to Gonzo and maybe a bomb to EK. His 4000/year numbers were inflated by YAC #'s. Not by actually going down the field.

YAC per reception - 2002 season
Trent Green 6.33
Rich Gannon 5.65
Mark Brunell 5.45
Joey Harrington 5.41

Here's another one for you - % of passing yards AFTER the catch!

Tom Brady 52.66
Joey Harrington 50.74
Rich Gannon 50.35
Trent Green 49.24

Here are the YAC stats for receivers - I don't even have to do the math for you to see that Marvin has very very very low YAC.

1 Priest Holmes KC 774
2 Charlie Garner Oak 769
3 Terrell Owens SF 599

That sounds a lot like Cassel in New England.

[Hammock Parties]

Years following priest Holmes bailed his ass out by taking his dumpoffs to the house.


LMAO

What a freaking joke.

Priest Holmes had 187 yards receiving in 2004 and Trent still passed for 4,600 yards.

There is no evidence that supports this asinine Orton > Green theory.

[Beef Supreme]

So... Trent Green is no Peyton Manning. He was a decent quarterback in a great situation. He wasn't the "stud" that BigChiefTablet and others think he was.

Peyton Manning was number 2 on NFL Network's greatest players of all time. So by your standard, he and Tom Brady are the only quarterbacks ever that have been worth a shit. Good luck finding a quarterback that lives up to your expectations.

Trent Green played against Manning in the 2003 playoffs. In a game with ZERO punts, we lost by one touchdown. We had a touchdown called back at the end of the first half because Tony G. was called for offensive pass interference. Holmes fumbled once in the second half, and the Colts took advantage and scored. The Chiefs lost because we had no defense at all.

You are right, Trent Green is no Peyton Manning. But he was definitely a stud quarterback.

[Denny]

No idea who "Carl Peterson" is
Really?
Were you born yesterday?
Nope. In fact I was born 51 years ago.

In Chicago.

He might be tremendously important to Kansas City, but that doesn't mean the rest of the country has even noticed him.

Denny, what team do you root for? I'm assuming it's not KC since you said you didn't know who Peterson was.
As I just said, I was born in Chicago. So MY team is Da Bears.

But I have spent my adult life in the Air Force. So I've moved around a bit and learned to appreciate other NFL teams. I watch beyond the Bears, although I always watch the Bears.

I'll admit to being a "player-fan" as well as a "team-fan." I liked Orton in Chicago. He was clearly the Bears' best QB since Dave Krieg in the mid-90s and the best one we'd drafted since Jim McMahon. I still think that Chicago would be better off if they'd kept Orton instead of trading him for Cutler. I was very upset when KC grabbed him off waivers before the Bears could (but the Cowboys still would have kept him from us).

Admittedly, I hadn't paid much attention to the Chiefs before Kyle landed in KC. But I have to say that the Defense, WRs, and RBs were very impressive looking in last week's game. They look like a fun team to watch for the rest of this season...

[wutamess]

That sounds a lot like Cassel in New England.

THIS! I've said it form day 1.
Although... Cassle STILL led the league in sacks that year.

[wutamess]

LMAO

What a freaking joke.

Priest Holmes had 187 yards receiving in 2004 and Trent still passed for 4,600 yards.

There is no evidence that supports this asinine Orton > Green theory.

RB's still accounted for almost 1000 of those yards... Whether it was Priest, Johnson, Blaylock or T. Rich... point still valid.

[milkman]

Nope. In fact I was born 51 years ago.

In Chicago.

He might be tremendously important to Kansas City, but that doesn't mean the rest of the country has even noticed him.


As I just said, I was born in Chicago. So MY team is Da Bears.

But I have spent my adult life in the Air Force. So I've moved around a bit and learned to appreciate other NFL teams. I watch beyond the Bears, although I always watch the Bears.

I'll admit to being a "player-fan" as well as a "team-fan." I liked Orton in Chicago. He was clearly the Bears' best QB since Dave Krieg in the mid-90s and the best one we'd drafted since Jim McMahon. I still think that Chicago would be better off if they'd kept Orton instead of trading him for Cutler. I was very upset when KC grabbed him off waivers before the Bears could (but the Cowboys still would have kept him from us).

Admittedly, I hadn't paid much attention to the Chiefs before Kyle landed in KC. But I have to say that the Defense, WRs, and RBs were very impressive looking in last week's game. They look like a fun team to watch for the rest of this season...

The "Were you born yesterday?" question was posed to highlight your complete moronacy.

I'm not a Bears fan, but I know who Martin Mayhew is.

You do realize that Cutler makes plays under pressure that Orton is absolutely incapable of making?

I by,"you do realize", I mean you're a fucking moron.

Orton is a guy that needs a clean pocket.

[Chiefnj2]

Milkman's gout must be acting up.

[patteeu]

Nope. In fact I was born 51 years ago.

In Chicago.

He might be tremendously important to Kansas City, but that doesn't mean the rest of the country has even noticed him.


As I just said, I was born in Chicago. So MY team is Da Bears.

But I have spent my adult life in the Air Force. So I've moved around a bit and learned to appreciate other NFL teams. I watch beyond the Bears, although I always watch the Bears.

I'll admit to being a "player-fan" as well as a "team-fan." I liked Orton in Chicago. He was clearly the Bears' best QB since Dave Krieg in the mid-90s and the best one we'd drafted since Jim McMahon. I still think that Chicago would be better off if they'd kept Orton instead of trading him for Cutler. I was very upset when KC grabbed him off waivers before the Bears could (but the Cowboys still would have kept him from us).

Admittedly, I hadn't paid much attention to the Chiefs before Kyle landed in KC. But I have to say that the Defense, WRs, and RBs were very impressive looking in last week's game. They look like a fun team to watch for the rest of this season...

Thanks for posting. It's good to get an outsider's perspective. Groupthink distorts reality at times in a place like this.

[milkman]

The thing that separates elite QBs from the league average is how they perform under pressure.

Every QB is going to struggle against pressure, but the elite ones are the ones that can consistently rise above that pressure and make plays.

They aren't going to succeed every time, but their success rate is far greater than the league average.

[wutamess]

Milkman's gout must be acting up.

This! LMAO

[Hammock Parties]

RB's still accounted for almost 1000 of those yards... Whether it was Priest, Johnson, Blaylock or T. Rich... point still valid.

Running backs accounted for 829 of Green's 4,591 yards that year. (18 percent)

That same year Manning's RBs accounted for 11 percent of his yardage.

Culpepper's RBs - 22.7 percent

Favre's RBs - 20.1 percent

Those are the top 4 passing QBs that year.

So your point that Green was only throwing for a lot of yards because of running backs is flat out bullshit. Unless you want to tell us that 2004 Brett Favre was overrated, too.

[milkman]

THIS! I've said it form day 1.
Although... Cassle STILL led the league in sacks that year.

Not sure what you're getting at.

YAC, in large part, is a product of the QB delivering the ball accurately and on time.

In New England, McDumbass kept it as simple as he could for Cassel, and essentially ran a college spread in order to maximize Cassel's production.

When it gets more complicated than that, Cassel can not deliver the ball accurately and on time.

As for Orton, while he can do this in a more complicated offense, he absolutely has to have everything working for him to be effective.

If things start to break down, he is terrible.

I want a QB that can carry his team when things break down.

I don't want a QB that has to be carried, and Orton is one that has to be carried.

[Beef Supreme]

Still makes sense to try and secure Orton as a stop gap until we find that guy. Anything that gets Cassel the hell off this team.

[Denny]

Not sure what you're getting at.

YAC, in large part, is a product of the QB delivering the ball accurately and on time.

In New England, McDumbass kept it as simple as he could for Cassel, and essentially ran a college spread in order to maximize Cassel's production.

When it gets more complicated than that, Cassel can not deliver the ball accurately and on time.

As for Orton, while he can do this in a more complicated offense, he absolutely has to have everything working for him to be effective.

If things start to break down, he is terrible.

I want a QB that can carry his team when things break down.

I don't want a QB that has to be carried, and Orton is one that has to be carried.
Orton doesn't need EVERYTHING else working to be effective. But he does need SOMETHING else working.

In this era a free agency and salary caps, teams can no longer build dynastic teams that are strong EVERYWHERE. So they have to pick and choose where they focus their strengths. Passing Offense, Running Offense, Special Teams, or Defense. Teams need to have it working in at least TWO of those areas to be successful. No NFL QB is going to get very far nowadays without some help from one of those other areas.

Give Orton a team that's decent in any one of those areas and he can run a passing Offense well enough for a winning team. Last weekend, I saw a Chiefs team that was executing well on Defense and running the ball well. That allowed the passing game some room to work and the result was a win over the unbeaten defending SB Champs...

[Brock]

Give Orton a team that's decent in any one of those areas and he can run a passing Offense well enough for a winning team.

"well enough for a winning team". Great! Chiefs fans, don't ever change.

[the Talking Can]

i can not believe there is an Orton fanboi...

[Denny]

"well enough for a winning team". Great! Chiefs fans, don't ever change.
Why do fans always expect their teams to magically transform from a dumpster fire into world-beating Super Bowl Champs by simply drafting some flashy college QB?

Football is very much a TEAM sport. It takes more than a single player to win.

At any given time there's probably 3-4 QBs in the NFL capable of transforming a team - see Indy with and without Peyton Manning. That leaves 28 teams without such a transforming player - and virtually no chance of acquiring one. Yet the teams without those elite QBs still manage to win. See the 49ers this year.

So, do you keep beating your head against the wall wishing the QB-fairy would finally visit your team, or do you go with the best QB available and build the best team that you can?

I don't think that KC's problem has been the lack of an elite QB. It's been a lack of commitment in building a great team overall.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

This thread took a turn for exactly what I claimed about Chiefs fans.

[Reerun_KC]

This thread took a turn for exactly what I claimed about Chiefs fans.
What did you win?

[Okie_Apparition]

DurangoOrtonStalker did show up
awesome

[Brock]

Why do fans always expect their teams to magically transform from a dumpster fire into world-beating Super Bowl Champs by simply drafting some flashy college QB?

Football is very much a TEAM sport. It takes more than a single player to win.

At any given time there's probably 3-4 QBs in the NFL capable of transforming a team - see Indy with and without Peyton Manning. That leaves 28 teams without such a transforming player - and virtually no chance of acquiring one. Yet the teams without those elite QBs still manage to win. See the 49ers this year.

So, do you keep beating your head against the wall wishing the QB-fairy would finally visit your team, or do you go with the best QB available and build the best team that you can?

I don't think that KC's problem has been the lack of an elite QB. It's been a lack of commitment in building a great team overall.

This kind of thinking is why this team is always an also-ran. You can be stacked at every single position except QB and hope to be the 2000 Ravens or the 2002 Buccaneers, or you can realize that there is no bigger factor in having a championship team than having a franchise QB.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

What did you win?

Years of continued torment watching this team go nowhere as the front office continues to placate the fanbase with another mediocre quarterback because we just need to fix the lines.

[Hammock Parties]

I don't think that KC's problem has been the lack of an elite QB. It's been a lack of commitment in building a great team overall.

That explains why we have playoff losses to teams quarterbacked by Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, John Elway and Peyton Manning in the last 18 years.

[Denny]

This kind of thinking is why this team is always an also-ran. You can be stacked at every single position except QB and hope to be the 2000 Ravens or the 2002 Buccaneers, or you can realize that there is no bigger factor in having a championship team than having a franchise QB.
But building a solid all-around team with a solid QB is a LOT EASIER to do than finding an "elite QB." Too many teams ignore doing the rest of the work as they engage on one wild-goose-chase after another seeking the semi-mythical "great" QB.

No one says that you can keep looking for a great QB while you build a good overall team. If one comes along, sure - grab him.

But that's not what happens. Teams throw away solid QBs that they can win a lot a games with in a frantic, panicked search for "THE GUY." Squandering resources grabbing up one false hope after another.

Or else the Front Office uses the QB position as an excuse why they can't build a winner, rather than admitting to their own incompetence...

['Hamas' Jenkins]

That explains why we have playoff losses to teams quarterbacked by Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, John Elway and Peyton Manning in the last 18 years.

Since 1993:

Montana > O'Donnell
Montana > Moon
Montana < Kelly
Montana < Marino
Bono < Harbaugh
Grbac < Elway
Green < Manning
Green < Manning
Cassel < Flacco

That's not a coincidence.

[the Talking Can]

But building a solid all-around team with a solid QB is a LOT EASIER to do than finding an "elite QB." Too many teams ignore doing the rest of the work as they engage on one wild-goose-chase after another seeking the semi-mythical "great" QB.

No one says that you can keep looking for a great QB while you build a good overall team. If one comes along, sure - grab him.

But that's not what happens. Teams throw away solid QBs that they can win a lot a games with in a frantic, panicked search for "THE GUY." Squandering resources grabbing up one false hope after another.

Or else the Front Office uses the QB position as an excuse why they can't build a winner, rather than admitting to their own incompetence...

of course it is easier to build a team that goes 8-8 than a Superbowl team...the Chiefs are living proof

the only question is why are you obsessed with the former when the latter is the only fucking thing that matters?

any team that isn't in a frantic search to find a great QB is a team that is cheating it's (incredibly stupid) fans and simply banking $$$ for its owner...

[Hammock Parties]

I don't think that KC's problem has been the lack of an elite QB. It's been a lack of commitment in building a great team overall.

This also explains why it took the Steelers 14 years to win a Super Bowl under Bill Cowher.

It actually wasn't the fact that Neil O'Donnell, Kordell Stewart and Tommy Maddox sucked.

Nope. For 13 years the Steelers just weren't committed to building great teams.

When they finally wised up, BOOM! Super Bowl. Ben Roethlisberger just happened to be the benefactor of good timing.

[Brock]

But building a solid all-around team with a solid QB is a LOT EASIER to do than finding an "elite QB." Too many teams ignore doing the rest of the work as they engage on one wild-goose-chase after another seeking the semi-mythical "great" QB.

No one says that you can keep looking for a great QB while you build a good overall team. If one comes along, sure - grab him.

But that's not what happens. Teams throw away solid QBs that they can win a lot a games with in a frantic, panicked search for "THE GUY." Squandering resources grabbing up one false hope after another.

Or else the Front Office uses the QB position as an excuse why they can't build a winner, rather than admitting to their own incompetence...

Wow, you really dropped some knowledge there. It's easier to just build a solid all around team and hope for the best? You don't say.

One would think that Chiefs fans would know better than anyone else that picking up these "solid QBs that can win" that other teams "threw away" just gets you beat in the playoffs and rather quickly.

Take a look at the past 10 super bowls and realize which side of the odds you're playing.

[the Talking Can]

Chiefs fan: afraid of trying to win a Superbowl but not afraid of finishing 8-8

[Sofa King]

This also explains why it took the Steelers 14 years to win a Super Bowl under Bill Cowher.

It actually wasn't the fact that Neil O'Donnell, Kordell Stewart and Tommy Maddox sucked.

Nope. For 13 years the Steelers just weren't committed to building great teams.

When they finally wised up, BOOM! Super Bowl. Ben Roethlisberger just happened to be the benefactor of good timing.

You're on a roll.

[Hammock Parties]

You're on a roll.

Did you also know that the reason the Cowboys went 12 years between Super Bowls had nothing to do with Roger Staubach and Troy Aikman?

Nope. See, little known fact: Tom Landry started doing cocaine and black tar heroin in the 80s. It completely sapped his commitment to great team building.

[whoman69]

Did you also know that the reason the Cowboys went 12 years between Super Bowls had nothing to do with Roger Staubach and Troy Aikman?

Nope. See, little known fact: Tom Landry started doing cocaine and black tar heroin in the 80s. It completely sapped his commitment to great team building.

I knew he must have hid his stash under that hat.

[Baby Lee]

This thread took a turn for exactly what I claimed about Chiefs fans.

Here are the dynamics.

Orton is demonstrably better than Cassel, but doesn't want to be pressed by a replacement, wants to be THE guy.

Cassel is beyond horrible and way overpaid.

Stanzi is a complete unknown.

Palko is worthless.

The Chiefs are presently moving away from the range where surefire franchise QBs are available, into a steep dive into franchise busts.

So what to do.

We don't know how many picks [if any] it'll take to move back into surefire franchise QB range.

We don't want Cassel back in any form

We don't want to waste too many years of a great many peaking performers, Hali, the Brandons, Bowe, hopefully Burrrry and Charles.

So many franchise QBs, especially the ones who eventually pan out, who start right away, suffer through 1, 2, 3 ATROCIOUS seasons [Manning, Aikman, in particular]. Even worse if they start out atrocious and just stay there.

OTOH, Rodgers sat and learned for 3 seasons and was ready to start at a high level right out of the box.

Information collation and analysis is an imperfect science, particularly when so much of it lies in the future. But my present take is to offer Orton at least the illusion/chance to be a long term solution. Sell him on the plan to draft a franchise QB who'll nevertheless sit on the bench for an extended period of seasoning and learning, during which time, the team is his. Be prepared to make judicious moves up in the draft for good value, resist temptation to go all Ditka on the draft, and hope like hell one of the surefires drops to our range.

Cassel has everything desirable [work ethic, durability, attitude, commitment], except talent. Talent can't be taught.

Orton has talent, but is suspicious for poise. Poise CAN be learned. This is again a future piece of information, but the possibility exists that that light has turned on, or is in the process of such.

I'd love to be sitting here a year from now with an RGII-v-Orton [or even RG-KO-RS] situation that is as win/win as SD's Rivers-v-Brees decision.

[patteeu]

Here are the dynamics.

Orton is demonstrably better than Cassel, but doesn't want to be pressed by a replacement, wants to be THE guy.

Cassel is beyond horrible and way overpaid.

Stanzi is a complete unknown.

Palko is worthless.

The Chiefs are presently moving away from the range where surefire franchise QBs are available, into a steep dive into franchise busts.

So what to do.

We don't know how many picks [if any] it'll take to move back into surefire franchise QB range.

We don't want Cassel back in any form

We don't want to waste too many years of a great many peaking performers, Hali, the Brandons, Bowe, hopefully Burrrry and Charles.

So many franchise QBs, especially the ones who eventually pan out, who start right away, suffer through 1, 2, 3 ATROCIOUS seasons [Manning, Aikman, in particular]. Even worse if they start out atrocious and just stay there.

OTOH, Rodgers sat and learned for 3 seasons and was ready to start at a high level right out of the box.

Information collation and analysis is an imperfect science, particularly when so much of it lies in the future. But my present take is to offer Orton at least the illusion/chance to be a long term solution. Sell him on the plan to draft a franchise QB who'll nevertheless sit on the bench for an extended period of seasoning and learning, during which time, the team is his. Be prepared to make judicious moves up in the draft for good value, resist temptation to go all Ditka on the draft, and hope like hell one of the surefires drops to our range.

Cassel has everything desirable [work ethic, durability, attitude, commitment], except talent. Talent can't be taught.

Orton has talent, but is suspicious for poise. Poise CAN be learned. This is again a future piece of information, but the possibility exists that that light has turned on, or is in the process of such.

I'd love to be sitting here a year from now with an RGII-v-Orton [or even RG-KO-RS] situation that is as win/win as SD's Rivers-v-Brees decision.

I'll sign on to all of that.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

I have no problem with Orton starting for this team next year, but that's really the only year he should start for this team if it wants to do much of anything with the talent it has in place. Rookie QBs should, generally, sit, but they also need reps. Year one should just help them acclimate to the league, practice schedules, routines, film study, adjusting to the speed of the game through running the scout team, and occasional play in games that are decided.

Here's what we do know:

The odds are overwhelmingly, and I can't stress this enough, overwhelmingly in favor of Hali, Carr, Flowers, etc all being wasted if the QB is Orton anyway. The odds of a team winning the way the NFL is currently constructed with Kyle Orton types as its QBs are infinitesimally low. It was already low five years ago, it's nearly nonexistent now.

The Chiefs winning many of the games that they did this season hurt the franchise in the long run, but at this point, that cost is sunk. What we also know is that this is a team that has a lot of available cap room and one glaring weakness. It also has problems with depth.

Depth can be addressed wisely and, at times, economically through sound FA acquisitions. What you cannot acquire through FA in almost every instance is a quarterback that can win you a Super Bowl, unless said QB is coming off of some kind of injury thought to be career threatening (Brees, Warner, Montana), and even if you acquire said QB, the clock is usually at 11:30 for their career anyway.

Given that the draft is predictive in nature the best you can do is make sound scouting reports, do your due diligence, and then play the odds.

Trading a whole draft for a QB is absolutely worth the risk, because without that QB, you aren't going anywhere anyway.

Let's just assume that Pioli did go all "Ditka" in the 2009 draft, acquiring Stafford in the process. Is the team in better or worse shape? Or what if he realized Cassel wasn't the answer after the playoffs and did the same thing for Cam Newton.

The fact of the matter is that, regardless of where we are, there are never surefire franchise QBs at any point. All have inherent risks. If they bust, the team is set back, but it's only set back relative to where it would be if they had a franchise quarterback, because in this league, without one, you might as well be playing hockey without a goalie.

[the Talking Can]

Given that the draft is predictive in nature the best you can do is make sound scouting reports, do your due diligence, and then play the odds.

Trading a whole draft for a QB is absolutely worth the risk, because without that QB, you aren't going anywhere anyway.

Let's just assume that Pioli did go all "Ditka" in the 2009 draft, acquiring Stafford in the process. Is the team in better or worse shape? Or what if he realized Cassel wasn't the answer after the playoffs and did the same thing for Cam Newton.

The fact of the matter is that, regardless of where we are, there are never surefire franchise QBs at any point. All have inherent risks. If they bust, the team is set back, but it's only set back relative to where it would be if they had a franchise quarterback, because in this league, without one, you might as well be playing hockey without a goalie.


bingo

had we said 4 years ago that Pioli was going to waste the prime of Hali/Charles/Bowe/Flowers careers on Cassel and then Orton...would anyone have said "sign me up, that's a great plan!!"?

would anyone 4 years ago have said "I hope we waste 3 years and then sign Kyle Orton..."?

if we don't draft QB this year, a waste of 4 years (going on 5) is solidified and next year is already irrelevant, as is every year until we do draft a QB...

[Dexter Manley]

bingo

had we said 4 years ago that Pioli was going to waste the prime of Hali/Charles/Bowe/Flowers careers on Cassel and then Orton...would anyone have said "sign me up, that's a great plan!!"?

would anyone 4 years ago have said "I hope we waste 3 years and then sign Kyle Orton..."?

if we don't draft QB this year, a waste of 4 years (going on 5) is solidified and next year is already irrelevant, as is every year until we do draft a QB...


What if the FO ends up drafting Joey Harrington II?

[Dexter Manley]

"Trading a whole draft for a QB is absolutely worth the risk, because without that QB, you aren't going anywhere anyway"


A QB is nothing without protection and quality skill players...

[RealSNR]

"Trading a whole draft for a QB is absolutely worth the risk, because without that QB, you aren't going anywhere anyway"


A QB is nothing without protection and quality skill players...Protection and skill players are nothing without a good QB (see: Tyler Palko/Matt Cassel/all 2011 Chiefs QBs)

One of these things is easier to acquire than the other. Any retard can draft/sign linemen and receivers. To find the right QB is much harder. If you don't try hard continuously and constantly, you'll never find one.

The Chiefs haven't tried at all. That's why they haven't won playoff games since Clinton's first term

[milkman]

Why do fans always expect their teams to magically transform from a dumpster fire into world-beating Super Bowl Champs by simply drafting some flashy college QB?

Football is very much a TEAM sport. It takes more than a single player to win.

At any given time there's probably 3-4 QBs in the NFL capable of transforming a team - see Indy with and without Peyton Manning. That leaves 28 teams without such a transforming player - and virtually no chance of acquiring one. Yet the teams without those elite QBs still manage to win. See the 49ers this year.

So, do you keep beating your head against the wall wishing the QB-fairy would finally visit your team, or do you go with the best QB available and build the best team that you can?

I don't think that KC's problem has been the lack of an elite QB. It's been a lack of commitment in building a great team overall.

This year's 9ers are built from the same blueprint that the Chiefs in the 90s.

Run the ball and play defense, while asking your mediocre QB to manage the game.

How many SBs did that win?

The QB position is even more important in today's NFL.

[Red Beans]

Here are the dynamics.

Orton is demonstrably better than Cassel, but doesn't want to be pressed by a replacement, wants to be THE guy.

Cassel is beyond horrible and way overpaid.

Stanzi is a complete unknown.

Palko is worthless.

The Chiefs are presently moving away from the range where surefire franchise QBs are available, into a steep dive into franchise busts.

So what to do.

We don't know how many picks [if any] it'll take to move back into surefire franchise QB range.

We don't want Cassel back in any form

We don't want to waste too many years of a great many peaking performers, Hali, the Brandons, Bowe, hopefully Burrrry and Charles.

So many franchise QBs, especially the ones who eventually pan out, who start right away, suffer through 1, 2, 3 ATROCIOUS seasons [Manning, Aikman, in particular]. Even worse if they start out atrocious and just stay there.

OTOH, Rodgers sat and learned for 3 seasons and was ready to start at a high level right out of the box.

Information collation and analysis is an imperfect science, particularly when so much of it lies in the future. But my present take is to offer Orton at least the illusion/chance to be a long term solution. Sell him on the plan to draft a franchise QB who'll nevertheless sit on the bench for an extended period of seasoning and learning, during which time, the team is his. Be prepared to make judicious moves up in the draft for good value, resist temptation to go all Ditka on the draft, and hope like hell one of the surefires drops to our range.

Cassel has everything desirable [work ethic, durability, attitude, commitment], except talent. Talent can't be taught.

Orton has talent, but is suspicious for poise. Poise CAN be learned. This is again a future piece of information, but the possibility exists that that light has turned on, or is in the process of such.

I'd love to be sitting here a year from now with an RGII-v-Orton [or even RG-KO-RS] situation that is as win/win as SD's Rivers-v-Brees decision.

Well put! :clap:

['Hamas' Jenkins]

"Trading a whole draft for a QB is absolutely worth the risk, because without that QB, you aren't going anywhere anyway"


A QB is nothing without protection and quality skill players...

I should repost the list of SB Linemen of the last three years.

Besides, here are the starters on OL for the last six SB teams:

LT: Jermon Bushrod, Charlie Johnson, Jonathan Scott, Chad Clifton, Max Starks, Mike Gandy
LG: Carl Nicks, Ryan Lilja, Chris Kemoatu (x2), Daryn College, Reggie Wells
C: Jonathan Goodwin, Jeff Saturday, Doug Legursky, Scott Wells, Justin Hartwig, Lyle Sendlein
RG: Jahri Evans, Kyle DeVan, Ramon Foster, Josh Sitton, Darnell Stapleton, Deuce Lutui
RT: John Stinchcomb, Ryan Diem, Flozell Adams, Brian Bulaga, Levi Brown, Willie Colon

Of those 29 players there are six Pro Bowlers:

Chad Clifton, Flozell Adams (who was a shell of himself at this point; it was his last year in the NFL), John Stinchcomb (played one more year after his SB appearance), Carl Nicks, Jahri Evans, Jeff Saturday

6/29, barely over 20%. If you count Kemoatu twice, then it's really 6/30, basically one PBer per line, and that assumes that guys like Adams and Stinchcomb were playing at a Pro Bowl level at that point in their career, and the truth was they were anything but.

[KC_Lee]

What if the FO ends up drafting Joey Harrington II?

My God!!! You're right!!!

What if we draft the next Trezell Jenkins!!! We should never draft a LT in the first round again!!!!

What if we draft another Snoop Minis or Sly Mo!!! Wide receiver in the first round, never again!!!

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

[the Talking Can]

What if the FO ends up drafting Joey Harrington II?

and?


we'd fail like we've been failing for decades, you fucking moran...

what success are we risking here? in your addled brain are the Chiefs currently superbowl contenders?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

If we draft Ryan Leaf II the next time, is the result any different than what it has been?

What drop off can you not tolerate? Is there something wildly successful about Chiefs football that I've missed as a result of a time warp, lobotomy, or psychotic episode?

[Dexter Manley]

I should repost the list of SB Linemen of the last three years.

Besides, here are the starters on OL for the last six SB teams:

LT: Jermon Bushrod, Charlie Johnson, Jonathan Scott, Chad Clifton, Max Starks, Mike Gandy
LG: Carl Nicks, Ryan Lilja, Chris Kemoatu (x2), Daryn College, Reggie Wells
C: Jonathan Goodwin, Jeff Saturday, Doug Legursky, Scott Wells, Justin Hartwig, Lyle Sendlein
RG: Jahri Evans, Kyle DeVan, Ramon Foster, Josh Sitton, Darnell Stapleton, Deuce Lutui
RT: John Stinchcomb, Ryan Diem, Flozell Adams, Brian Bulaga, Levi Brown, Willie Colon

Of those 29 players there are six Pro Bowlers:

Chad Clifton, Flozell Adams (who was a shell of himself at this point; it was his last year in the NFL), John Stinchcomb (played one more year after his SB appearance), Carl Nicks, Jahri Evans, Jeff Saturday

6/29, barely over 20%. If you count Kemoatu twice, then it's really 6/30, basically one PBer per line, and that assumes that guys like Adams and Stinchcomb were playing at a Pro Bowl level at that point in their career, and the truth was they were anything but.



That's certainly interesting. I would point out that to DEVELOP a YOUNG QB, a good OL is necessary.

Then again, NO got Brees in FA, AZ got Warner in FA, Aaron Rodgers sat for three full years...

but we have to spend the first on a QB, regardless of who that QB is...)

Big Ben, when he started, had 3 PBs on the OL, 2 at WR, and the Bus. That's what you need to start a young QB. Manning had 2 First Rounders at OT when he arrived in Indy.

[Buckweath]

bingo

had we said 4 years ago that Pioli was going to waste the prime of Hali/Charles/Bowe/Flowers careers on Cassel and then Orton...would anyone have said "sign me up, that's a great plan!!"?

would anyone 4 years ago have said "I hope we waste 3 years and then sign Kyle Orton..."?

if we don't draft QB this year, a waste of 4 years (going on 5) is solidified and next year is already irrelevant, as is every year until we do draft a QB...

I wish more Chiefs fans could understand that.

This team needs a solid QB (not Orton) fast or the careers of Bowe, Dorsey, Johnson, Hali, Flowers, Carr, Charles, ... will go to waste, which means all those guys make for a great team but if only we had a solid QB.

Yes, I would easily give up 3 first round picks for Luck.

[Dexter Manley]

and?


we'd fail like we've been failing for decades, you ****ing moran...

what success are we risking here? in your addled brain are the Chiefs currently superbowl contenders?

Nope...

But the success failure ratio of First Round QBs isn't that inspiring, and many teams have won without a QB of their own First Round pick...

I think obsession with QB has gone too far, and where the Chiefs are picking in April, the "top QB" may not be there...

[Hammock Parties]

Big Ben, when he started, had 3 PBs on the OL, 2 at WR, and the Bus. That's what you need to start a young QB. Manning had 2 First Rounders at OT when he arrived in Indy.


And the Chiefs were recently ranked in the top 10 in pass blocking efficiency, and just had a perfect game in pass protection.

Draft a QB or die.

[Rams Fan]

What if the FO ends up drafting Joey Harrington II?

Dumb ass, you are.

[the Talking Can]

Nope...

But the success failure ratio of First Round QBs isn't that inspiring, and many teams have won without a QB of their own First Round pick...

I think obsession with QB has gone too far, and where the Chiefs are picking in April, the "top QB" may not be there...

you don't have a fucking clue about the nfl

you deserve 30 more years of failure

[Dexter Manley]

And the Chiefs were recently ranked in the top 10 in pass blocking efficiency, and just had a perfect game in pass protection.

Draft a QB or die.


If you think the Chiefs OL is "perfect," then that's what you think.

I don't. I think the offensive scheme was designed to cover the flaws in the offense.

For a "perfect game" against a statistically leaky D, the Chiefs O scored how many TDs?

[Rams Fan]

Nope...

But the success failure ratio of First Round QBs isn't that inspiring, and many teams have won without a QB of their own First Round pick...

I think obsession with QB has gone too far, and where the Chiefs are picking in April, the "top QB" may not be there...

:facepalm:

It is better to have failed once with a QB in the first, then it is to have never failed with a QB in the first.

[Buckweath]

I wish more Chiefs fans could understand that.

This team needs a solid QB (not Orton) fast or the careers of Bowe, Dorsey, Johnson, Hali, Flowers, Carr, Charles, ... will go to waste, which means all those guys make for a great team but if only we had a solid QB.

Yes, I would easily give up 3 first round picks for Luck.

If this team doesn`t trade up for Barkley or Griffin, I`ll be very very skeptical of our future. Of course, we could have a team good enough to win the AFC WEST but to win the Superbowl absolutely not.

Barkley or Griffin do not assure nothing but at least they give us a hope, a chance (if they develop properly) to maybe contend for the Superbowl in the next few years.

[KC_Lee]

Nope...

But the success failure ratio of First Round QBs isn't that inspiring, and many teams have won without a QB of their own First Round pick...

I think obsession with QB has gone too far, and where the Chiefs are picking in April, the "top QB" may not be there...

Then by all means let's go down the George Allen line of thinking and trade all our draft picks for other team's players.

Lord knows drafting is too much of a risk...

[Dexter Manley]

you don't have a ****ing clue about the nfl

you deserve 30 more years of failure


At least I don't talk to 12 ounce pieces of cylindrical metal...

[Dexter Manley]

Then by all means let's go down the George Allen line of thinking and trade all our draft picks for other team's players.

Lord knows drafting is too much of a risk...


More precisely, QB is a risky position to Draft - high failure rate.

It doesn't mean I am against taking a QB. I don't want "we are taking a QB" written in stone before the Draft...

[milkman]

That's certainly interesting. I would point out that to DEVELOP a YOUNG QB, a good OL is necessary.

Then again, NO got Brees in FA, AZ got Warner in FA, Aaron Rodgers sat for three full years...

but we have to spend the first on a QB, regardless of who that QB is...)

Big Ben, when he started, had 3 PBs on the OL, 2 at WR, and the Bus. That's what you need to start a young QB. Manning had 2 First Rounders at OT when he arrived in Indy.

I guess asking you to see a correlation in the improvement of O-Line play from a craptastic QB like Cassel to a mediocre QB like Orton would achieve anything.

But if you could actually wrap your mind around that, then you could also imagine what kind of improvement would be possible simply by upgrading to a franchise level QB.

[Dexter Manley]

:facepalm:

It is better to have failed once with a QB in the first, then it is to have never failed with a QB in the first.


Sincerely,

Brett Favre
Drew Brees
Tom Brady

[Dexter Manley]

I guess asking you to see a correlation in the improvement of O-Line play from a craptastic QB like Cassel to a mediocre QB like Orton would achieve anything.

But if you could actually wrap your mind around that, then you could also imagine what kind of improvement would be possible simply by upgrading to a franchise level QB.


No question.

I just am pointing out that a mid First may not return a "Franchise QB..."

and many teams have won without one...

What round was Trent Green selected?

[Rams Fan]

Sincerely,

Brett Favre
Drew Brees
Tom Brady

Favre was picked 33rd, which would be considered the 1st pick in the 2nd round now a days.

Brees was picked 32nd, which would be considered the last pick in the 1st round now.

Brady was picked when the Pats already had a QB, picked in the first, starting.

[Dexter Manley]

So by all means, let's get the next Drew Bledsoe...


.........

or...

maybe not...

[Buckweath]

If anything, Chiefs fans are not obsessed enough with getting a potentially elite QB prospect.

[milkman]

Nope...

But the success failure ratio of First Round QBs isn't that inspiring, and many teams have won without a QB of their own First Round pick...

I think obsession with QB has gone too far, and where the Chiefs are picking in April, the "top QB" may not be there...

The success rate of first round QBs is higher than all other rounds combined.

[Baby Lee]

If anything, Chiefs fans are not obsessed enough with getting a potentially elite QB prospect.

WTF: That's like saying fans of HIMYM aren't obsessed enough with the identity of Ted's kids' mother. Debating for die-hards can be fun, but demanding a level of obsession from the fanbase regarding something totally out their control is just stupid.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

League Ranks for the last several Super Bowl teams

Passing:

Colts: 2
Saints: 4

Arizona: 2
Pittsburgh: 17

Green Bay: 5
Pittsburgh: 14 (but were 27th in attempts, FWIW)

Average passing rank of Super Bowl teams ~ 7.5, but 3.25 for non-Steeler teams.

[Mr. Laz]

depends on what question you are looking to answer.

imo Orton has always been underrated ... I would of jumped all over trading Cassel to Denver and getting Orton and a draft pick in some 3-way trade back with McDaniels was getting rid of Cutler.

so if the question is 'can Orton be a decent starter to used while you look for a QBotF?" Then Orton probably can be the answer.

if the question is "Is Orton an elite franchise quarterback?" Then no, he's not.

[YourMult]

Cassel is so shitty that he makes Orton look like a viable option.

[DaWolf]

The reason this team hasn't won jack in so many years isn't because we don't draft QB's in the first round, it's because the people who have been running the organization have shown NO ABILITY to actually evaluate the QB position.

What does Carl do? Steve Bono. Elvis Grbac. Before they signed Grbac, they strongly considered signing Heath Shuler, but passed because his foot was injured. He has an NFL MVP sitting on the roster backing up Grbac, who he lets walk. He trades a first rounder for Trent Green, who to me is the epitome of decent but not great QB who was handed Priest Holmes, Tony G, and probably the best offensive line of the decade in the NFL. Then you have Huard, and Croyle. He was reportedly salivating at the idea of drafting Joey Harrington had Detroit not taken him. He may have pounced on Brady Quinn had Cleveland not jumped in front of us to take him. Had he drafted either of those guys in round 1, we still wouldn't be celebrating a championship here.

Before that, this organization famously passes on Marino to take Blackledge.

Hell, this organization is lucky that Len Dawson couldn't cut it with two NFL teams before arriving here.

Would we have really been that much better had we drafted Sanchez or Freeman in 2009? Perhaps, but more likely we'd be complaining about Sanchez (wouldn't have the Jets defense playing behind him, Rex still has a leash on him) or Freeman (badly regressed this year) not justifying getting drafted at 3. Does drafting Jimmy Clausen get us any closer to the promised land? Not likely.

I really don't care how this organization finds a QB, we just need someone who can actually EVALUATE a QB. And we need some good luck for a change. I don't care if the guy is a third round pick or a fifth round pick (Montana, Brady). I don't care if we trade another organization for his rights (Favre). I don't care if he's a street free agent (Warner). I don't care if it's just some guy who is there mid first round because it is a stacked year for QB's (Big Ben) or if he's a guy who free falls to you (Rodgers) or if he's a free agent (Brees). We just need someone in the organization who for once will evaluate that position properly, and who will go out and get that guy. I don't care where it is.

To me, it's not going to cut it if we just draft a guy in the first round. If that guy turns out to be David Carr, or JaMarcus Russell, or Ryan Leaf, or Harrington, or Quinn, or anyone who is no better than Cassel or Orton, then it's not going to cut it. It's not going to cut it to be the Bengals and keep drafting QB's high and hoping they'll lead me to the promised land. That person would need to be fired.

In regards to Orton, I see him much like I see Cassel. 70 starts, and they've both proven they're inconsistent. We've spent three years looking at Cassel and arguing whether or not he'd perform better if he had a better supporting cast. Now we're looking at Orton and wondering if he'd do better with this supporting cast than he did in Chicago or Denver. So to me, it's the same thing. Both guys have proven that they are streaky, and that they don't elevate anyone's games. They can perform well if given all day to throw, which in many cases Orton had against Green Bay. The only reason to go Orton over Cassel is that Orton plays the position more naturally, while Cassel is very mechanical and needs everything to go right on a play to make it work. Hoping that Orton will be any better than what he is is like hoping that the light goes on for Cassel. It probably won't happen. Even if Orton finishes strong this year and comes back next year, the most likely scenario is that next year we'll be complaining about the things that Orton doesn't do well...

[Denny]

Favre was picked 33rd, which would be considered the 1st pick in the 2nd round now a days.

Brees was picked 32nd, which would be considered the last pick in the 1st round now.

Brady was picked when the Pats already had a QB, picked in the first, starting.
Tom Brady was picked up by the Pats in the 6th round, 199th pick overall - a compensatory pick. They didn't grab him because they were looking for a "QB of the Future" (they were satisfied with Drew Bledsoe as their starter) but more because they couldn't believe that he'd fallen that far in the draft. Brady was a damned good QB at Michigan. For a compensatory pick in the 6th, Brady was an absolute STEAL. Low (virtually NO) risk, high reward.

[Mr. Laz]

The reason this team hasn't won jack in so many years isn't because we don't draft QB's in the first round, it's because the people who have been running the organization have shown NO ABILITY to actually evaluate the QB position.

this

They have shown NO ABILITY to develop/handle the QB position either.

3 yrds and a cloud of dust is NOT QB friendly

Yelling at your QB every day about how "not turning the ball over is the top priority" is not QB friendly

RRPP is NOT QB friendly

I wanted no part of Haley developing a QBoTF and that goes for Muir either. We must get a quality OC who can install a viable offensive system and develop a young QB with that system.

I'm a firm believer in that coaching can kill most young QB's. You flip-flop the team selection on many QB's and their futures can end up very different. Very few 'can't miss' quarterbacks.

[FringeNC]

NFL is all about being able to pass the ball now. Having said, the reason we lost to Indy in 2003 had nothing to do with QB play. From 2002-2005, we had the #1 or 2 offense in the league every year, and didn't do anything. That simply, is unprecedented. It's much harder to build a super offense like we did in that era, based around a fantastic line and a Kyle Orton-like QB than simply having Big Ben or Brady back there.

[Sofa King]

Tom Brady was picked up by the Pats in the 6th round, 199th pick overall - a compensatory pick. They didn't grab him because they were looking for a "QB of the Future" (they were satisfied with Drew Bledsoe as their starter) but more because they couldn't believe that he'd fallen that far in the draft. Brady was a damned good QB at Michigan. For a compensatory pick in the 6th, Brady was an absolute STEAL. Low (virtually NO) risk, high reward.

You really need to stop beating the Brady drum. The guy was a once in history type of pick. It won't be happening again, not with the way players are being scouted.

Just pay attention to the odds. Look at what's been posted in this thread.

[whosyou]

That was magical season? ROFL

Yes, please show me what other qbs have a 27 touchdown to 7 interception ratio. Regardless of his yards, Cassel got 27 passing tds. The run certainly helped him. How many attempts did Cassel have?

[Hammock Parties]

Yes, please show me what other qbs have a 27 touchdown to 7 interception ratio. Regardless of his yards, Cassel got 27 passing tds. The run certainly helped him. How many attempts did Cassel have?

Even if it was a magical season, it means shit now. It was a false indicator of his ability.

Derek Anderson once threw for 29 TDs and 3800 yards. MAGICAL! He's back in the shitter these days.

[KCBOSS1]

Sunday's game was a blast, very fun to watch. I was really happy for Orton, Crennel and the rest of the Chiefs for that matter. It was fun, not only to watch the win, but to watch those guys enjoy themselves and fight for each other after a really tough week on them I'm sure. I have heard guys say, "we've got our guy" and "no way, draft a guy". This is a wait and see deal and nobody that really counts cares about anybody on here's opinion. This could be a fit. I was not a big Orton or Crennel guy, but have been impressed over the last week. I do believe that Orton could be much better than I or most guys on here have given him credit to be. He's really had no weapons. We'll see.

[SAUTO]

Even if it was a magical season, it means shit now. It was a false indicator of his ability.

Derek Anderson once threw for 29 TDs and 3800 yards. MAGICAL! He's back in the shitter these days.

funny how some people leave out things that are kinda important when comparing two somewhat like situations...


anderson also threw 19 INTS that magical season.

[KCBOSS1]

One thing I'm sure of is that Cassel needs to restructure his contract and resign to being a quality back up or be traded. But Scott hasn't called me yet to ask me my opinion. I don't know what his deal is.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Did we ever stop to think that maybe the fact that they haven't drafted a 1st round QB is an indicator that they haven't properly evaluated the position and we shouldn't use their inability to evaluate as justification for not taking one.

[Hammock Parties]

funny how some people leave out things that are kinda important when comparing two somewhat like situations...


anderson also threw 19 INTS that magical season.

Who gives a shit?

If Cassel had thrown 29/3800 people on here would still be lauding that season as magical.

[SAUTO]

Who gives a shit?

If Cassel had thrown 29/3800 people on here would still be lauding that season as magical.

not with 19 INTS. that should have told people what was going on...

[O.city]

funny how some people leave out things that are kinda important when comparing two somewhat like situations...


anderson also threw 19 INTS that magical season.

Matt also had the top running game,a rb avg near 7ypc, and still only threw for close to 3000 yds.


out of those 27 Td I bet 12 were inside the 5 on short throws

[Hammock Parties]

not with 19 INTS. that should have told people what was going on...

30th in the fucking league should have told people what was going on with Cassel.

[O.city]

wasn't the passing game ranked like 30 in the league?


And that with the best running game in the league and 8 in the box

[bricks]

The reason this team hasn't won jack in so many years isn't because we don't draft QB's in the first round, it's because the people who have been running the organization have shown NO ABILITY to actually evaluate the QB position.

What does Carl do? Steve Bono. Elvis Grbac. Before they signed Grbac, they strongly considered signing Heath Shuler, but passed because his foot was injured. He has an NFL MVP sitting on the roster backing up Grbac, who he lets walk. He trades a first rounder for Trent Green, who to me is the epitome of decent but not great QB who was handed Priest Holmes, Tony G, and probably the best offensive line of the decade in the NFL. Then you have Huard, and Croyle. He was reportedly salivating at the idea of drafting Joey Harrington had Detroit not taken him. He may have pounced on Brady Quinn had Cleveland not jumped in front of us to take him. Had he drafted either of those guys in round 1, we still wouldn't be celebrating a championship here.

Before that, this organization famously passes on Marino to take Blackledge.

Hell, this organization is lucky that Len Dawson couldn't cut it with two NFL teams before arriving here.

Would we have really been that much better had we drafted Sanchez or Freeman in 2009? Perhaps, but more likely we'd be complaining about Sanchez (wouldn't have the Jets defense playing behind him, Rex still has a leash on him) or Freeman (badly regressed this year) not justifying getting drafted at 3. Does drafting Jimmy Clausen get us any closer to the promised land? Not likely.

I really don't care how this organization finds a QB, we just need someone who can actually EVALUATE a QB. And we need some good luck for a change. I don't care if the guy is a third round pick or a fifth round pick (Montana, Brady). I don't care if we trade another organization for his rights (Favre). I don't care if he's a street free agent (Warner). I don't care if it's just some guy who is there mid first round because it is a stacked year for QB's (Big Ben) or if he's a guy who free falls to you (Rodgers) or if he's a free agent (Brees). We just need someone in the organization who for once will evaluate that position properly, and who will go out and get that guy. I don't care where it is.

To me, it's not going to cut it if we just draft a guy in the first round. If that guy turns out to be David Carr, or JaMarcus Russell, or Ryan Leaf, or Harrington, or Quinn, or anyone who is no better than Cassel or Orton, then it's not going to cut it. It's not going to cut it to be the Bengals and keep drafting QB's high and hoping they'll lead me to the promised land. That person would need to be fired.

In regards to Orton, I see him much like I see Cassel. 70 starts, and they've both proven they're inconsistent. We've spent three years looking at Cassel and arguing whether or not he'd perform better if he had a better supporting cast. Now we're looking at Orton and wondering if he'd do better with this supporting cast than he did in Chicago or Denver. So to me, it's the same thing. Both guys have proven that they are streaky, and that they don't elevate anyone's games. They can perform well if given all day to throw, which in many cases Orton had against Green Bay. The only reason to go Orton over Cassel is that Orton plays the position more naturally, while Cassel is very mechanical and needs everything to go right on a play to make it work. Hoping that Orton will be any better than what he is is like hoping that the light goes on for Cassel. It probably won't happen. Even if Orton finishes strong this year and comes back next year, the most likely scenario is that next year we'll be complaining about the things that Orton doesn't do well...

Ahhhhh, somebody with good sense.

Good job Dawolf! It's so true what you are saying.

Your right...it really comes down to evaluation at the end of the day. There are so many qbs that have been selected out of the first round.

And I believe it also has to do with KC making bad personnel decisions on top ala Grbac over Gannon as an example.

[The Bad Guy]

Sincerely,

Brett Favre
Drew Brees
Tom Brady

Congratulations, true fan.

Sincerely,

Aaron Rodgers
Peyton Manning
Eli Manning
Ben Roethlisburger

[OnTheWarpath15]

Matt also had the top running game,a rb avg near 7ypc, and still only threw for close to 3000 yds.


out of those 27 Td I bet 12 were inside the 5 on short throws

No, but 12 of his TD's were from inside the 9. 10 from inside the 6.


He had 2 from 1 yard out.

3 from 2 yards out.

1 from 3 yards out.

2 from 5 yards out.

2 from 6 yards out.

1 from 7 yards out.

1 from 9 yards out.

[DaWolf]

Did we ever stop to think that maybe the fact that they haven't drafted a 1st round QB is an indicator that they haven't properly evaluated the position and we shouldn't use their inability to evaluate as justification for not taking one.

You are only justified in taking one if you evaluate the guy properly. For example, if I am a QB starved organization, and I allow myself to drool over JaMarcus Russel's workout and draft him No 1 overall instead of Calvin Johnsnon, just because I feel the need to draft a QB in the first round and want to roll the dice, and get intoxicated with visions of JaMarcus leading my franchise for the next decade because of all of his physical tools, then I should lose my job. You are better off with Kyle Orton/Calvin Johnson than you are with Russell.

Again, this is not to say you don't take a guy in the first round, it is to say that when you do, or when you trade your entire draft for one, you better be sure that guy is gonna be the difference maker between being an OK team and being a Super Bowl contender. Otherwise you've just set your franchise back another 3-5 years and wasted a first.

Easier said than done of course, QB is a tough position to project from college to NFL. But that guy better be worth that pick. If I have the ability to trade up for Andrew Luck, or if I have a conviction about RGIII, do I go out and try to make it happen? Yeah. But if I am not in a position to take those guys, do I draft Landry Jones because he's there? Not if I am not sold on Landry Jones being a SIGNIFICANT upgrade over who I have at this level, and not if there is a better player available that will also help my team. I mean, I'm not going to sit here and give Jacksonville props for drafting and whiffing on Gabbert because they at least tried to replace Gerrard. They got it wrong, and set their franchise further back. In my book, you don't get brownie points for trying, you better do it right...

[Dexter Manley]

Congratulations, true fan.

Sincerely,

Aaron Rodgers
Peyton Manning
Eli Manning
Ben Roethlisburger


"Screw you"

Sincerely,

Kurt Warner

[Hammock Parties]

Someone needs to post the "60% of SBs have been won by 1st-round QBs" thing again.

[ChiefsCountry]

Someone needs to post the "60% of SBs have been won by 1st-round QBs" thing again.

I should just keep that permentaly on paste on my computer.

[Phobia]

What round was Trent Green selected?

He was basically an undrafted free agent. They used to run 12 round drafts back in the day and he was selected well past the 7th round.

[ChiefsCountry]

He was basically an undrafted free agent. They used to run 12 round drafts back in the day and he was selected well past the 7th round.

8th round

[Hammock Parties]

How about these facts:

57% of the Super Bowls have been won by first round quarterbacks.
(Out of those quarterbacks only 3 were not top 10 picks)
40% of the Super Bowls won by top 5 picks.
21% have been won by 1st round quarterbacks that wasnt their original team (Dawson, Plunkett (2), Williams, Young, Dilfer)
16% of the Super Bowls were won by Montana and Brady
4% were Roger Staubuach's wins who would have went in the first if he wasnt going to Vietnam
14% were won by a 9th or lower (counting Warner who was Undrafted) and 4 of those wins were by Bart Starr & Roger Staubauch.
4% were won by second round quarterbacks
4% 3rd and 6th rounds picks that were not Montana or Brady
0% of the Super Bowls were won by a 7th round pick
__________________

[Dexter Manley]

"21% have been won by 1st round quarterbacks that wasnt their original team (Dawson, Plunkett (2), Williams, Young, Dilfer)"



BINGO!!!

[Dexter Manley]

The team that Drafts a First Round QB better have a good supporting cast.

If that is not the case, fix the supporting cast first...

[Hammock Parties]

"21% have been won by 1st round quarterbacks that wasnt their original team (Dawson, Plunkett (2), Williams, Young, Dilfer)"



BINGO!!!

Where do you suggest we get a former 1st-round QB, jackass?

[Dexter Manley]

Where do you suggest we get a former 1st-round QB, jackass?


Rather, the point is that a lot of good QBs go to shitty teams and then get canned.

The Bucs were awesome.

The Bucs were losing. Obviously it was all QB Steve Young's fault. Solution, dump Steve on those stupid Niners and Draft Vinnie Testaverde...

Several years later, Vinne is the Bucs problem. Solution, dump Vinne, and Draft Trent Dilfer...

Then Dilfer was the problem... dump him!!!

Sign BRAD JOHNSON... and win a Super Bowl...


Got that, jackass???

[FloridaMan88]

Settling for Orton as the starting QB for the future would be a typical Chiefs move. Orton is potentially good enough to win 8-9, maybe 10 games for the Chiefs, but he'll never lead the Chiefs to a Super Bowl.

The Chiefs must draft a franchise QB.

Stop settling for journeyman QBs, back-up QBs with alleged potential, etc.

[Dexter Manley]

"Stop settling on journeyman QBs"

Yeah, like Plunkett, Kurt Warner, Steve young...

[Hammock Parties]

Sign BRAD JOHNSON... and win a Super Bowl...


Got that, jackass???

Where are we getting a former 1st-round QB?

Please point out the available ones we should acquire.

[Dexter Manley]

Where are we getting a former 1st-round QB?

Please point out the available ones we should acquire.


I don't care what round the FA QB was Drafted. I care what he is as a player.

Right now, roughly half of NFL teams need QB upgrades. I wish I had a good answer. QB is the NFL's "shortage" position.

Also, QB has the steepest "learning curve" of any position, which is why so many First Round QBs ended up winning the SB with another team.

The Chiefs need an upgrade at QB, no question. I just don't think the ONLY WAY to cure that is "spending the First on one..."

[Hammock Parties]

I just don't think the ONLY WAY to cure that is "spending the First on one..."

True. It's only the most likely way.

[CrazyHorse]

wasn't the passing game ranked like 30 in the league?


And that with the best running game in the league and 8 in the box

16th overall

With the Chiefs being in the top 8 in throws over 40 yards.
Middle of the road in sacks at 39
O line pass blocking ranking 25th
Completion percentage at 55%. Only the Raiders were worse. However, we
-were 1st in the league in dropped passes.


http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&season=2010&seasonType=REG&role=OPP&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&conference=ALL&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&d-447263-s=PASSING_PASSER_RATING

If you look at the numbers you'll see Cassels numbers were middle of the pack or better with the exception of completion pertcentage. He was also one of the best red zone QBs in the league.

Does that mean he's great QB? Of course not. But it does say he made the team better instead of worse. The O iine was the worst unit on the team, and almost the worst in the league.

This will translate into poor play for anyone behind center. Especially a rook.

Now before everyone goes off the deep end, Im not saying I wouldn't want a new QB. I would love the prospect of developing our own. What I am saying though is regardless who you get, with the current O line expect that QB to produce at a mediocre to bottom of the league level.

Also people need to quit blaming everything that goes wrong on the QB. For god sake there are other positions on the team. He grades out as mediocre to slightly above average in nearly every category. Which I agree is not good enough. However, the O line grades out as one of the worst in the game. You can spin it any way you want, but the numbers tell a story that are in line with what I see on the field every Sunday.

We have a terrible O line with a mediocre to slightly above average QB. You put a rookie back there and he's liable to look more like David Carr than Andy Dalton. QB is only a fraction of the answer for the Chiefs.

This is just my opinion based on the numbers, and what I see. Try not to get too bent out of shape over it.

[Hammock Parties]

If you look at the numbers you'll Cassels numbers were middle of the pack or better with the exception of completion pertcentage.

LMAO

What?

Cassel was 24th in yards per game.

We have a terrible O line

As it's been proven all year long, we really don't. We had an excellent game Sunday and on the year are ranked in the top 10 in pass blocking efficiency.

Cassel is our biggest problem.

His last 11 games are complete dogshit and nowhere near "mediocre."

56% completion percentage
1,898 yards
5.9 yards per attempt
10 TD
14 INT
65.9 QB rating

[Mr. Laz]

Did we ever stop to think that maybe the fact that they haven't drafted a 1st round QB is an indicator that they haven't properly evaluated the position and we shouldn't use their inability to evaluate as justification for not taking one.
I would think that knowing your limitations in evaluating the QB position would be a great justification for not taking one.

That said, you need to start going after the source of the problem AND FIND someone who can evaluate QB's instead of running from the problem and avoiding it.

[BigMeatballDave]

16th overall

With the Chiefs being in the top 8 in throws over 40 yards.
Middle of the road in sacks at 39
O line pass blocking ranking 25th
Completion percentage at 55%. Only the Raiders were worse. However, we
-were 1st in the league in dropped passes.


http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&season=2010&seasonType=REG&role=OPP&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&conference=ALL&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&d-447263-s=PASSING_PASSER_RATING

If you look at the numbers you'll see Cassels numbers were middle of the pack or better with the exception of completion pertcentage. He was also one of the best red zone QBs in the league.

Does that mean he's great QB? Of course not. But it does say he made the team better instead of worse. The O iine was the worst unit on the team, and almost the worst in the league.

This will translate into poor play for anyone behind center. Especially a rook.

Now before everyone goes off the deep end, Im not saying I wouldn't want a new QB. I would love the prospect of developing our own. What I am saying though is regardless who you get, with the current O line expect that QB to produce at a mediocre to bottom of the league level.

Also people need to quit blaming everything that goes wrong on the QB. For god sake there are other positions on the team. He grades out as mediocre to slightly above average in nearly every category. Which I agree is not good enough. However, the O line grades out as one of the worst in the game. You can spin it any way you want, but the numbers tell a story that are in line with what I see on the field every Sunday.

We have a terrible O line with a mediocre to slightly above average QB. You put a rookie back there and he's liable to look more like David Carr than Andy Dalton. QB is only a fraction of the answer for the Chiefs.

This is just my opinion based on the numbers, and what I see. Try not to get too bent out of shape over it.Terrible OL? Did you watch the game Sunday? Looked to me like Orton had all day back there.

[FringeNC]

Couple thoughts:

First, how can some of you guys still think Cassel is a serviceable QB after Orton embarrassed him on Sunday? Orton was far more in command in his first start than Cassel EVER was.

Second, why is NFL QB scouting so bad? I hear all this talk about how good TJ Yates is and will be. Well then, why the fuck was he a 5th round draft pick? Obviously, in a re-draft, he'd be taken much higher, but why did he fall in the first place?

[whoman69]

Cassel 25th in rating (76.6), 28th in YPA (6.37), 28th in yards per game (190), 20th in completion % (59.5).

[milkman]

.

This is just my opinion based on the numbers, and what I see. Try not to get too bent out of shape over it.

When's the last time you had your eyes checked?

[ChiefsCountry]

16th overall

With the Chiefs being in the top 8 in throws over 40 yards.
Middle of the road in sacks at 39
O line pass blocking ranking 25th
Completion percentage at 55%. Only the Raiders were worse. However, we
-were 1st in the league in dropped passes.


http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&season=2010&seasonType=REG&role=OPP&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&conference=ALL&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&d-447263-s=PASSING_PASSER_RATING

If you look at the numbers you'll see Cassels numbers were middle of the pack or better with the exception of completion pertcentage. He was also one of the best red zone QBs in the league.

Does that mean he's great QB? Of course not. But it does say he made the team better instead of worse. The O iine was the worst unit on the team, and almost the worst in the league.

This will translate into poor play for anyone behind center. Especially a rook.

Now before everyone goes off the deep end, Im not saying I wouldn't want a new QB. I would love the prospect of developing our own. What I am saying though is regardless who you get, with the current O line expect that QB to produce at a mediocre to bottom of the league level.

Also people need to quit blaming everything that goes wrong on the QB. For god sake there are other positions on the team. He grades out as mediocre to slightly above average in nearly every category. Which I agree is not good enough. However, the O line grades out as one of the worst in the game. You can spin it any way you want, but the numbers tell a story that are in line with what I see on the field every Sunday.

We have a terrible O line with a mediocre to slightly above average QB. You put a rookie back there and he's liable to look more like David Carr than Andy Dalton. QB is only a fraction of the answer for the Chiefs.

This is just my opinion based on the numbers, and what I see. Try not to get too bent out of shape over it.

LMAO And you are still clueless about football.

[CrazyHorse]

When's the last time you had your eyes checked?

My agenda colored glasses are broken. That and I am not compelled to argue all the time. It makes for a more accurate point of view. A more enjoyable experience on Sundays and a lower post count. In a word......open minded. Okay, two words.

[CrazyHorse]

LMAO And you are still clueless about football.

How so? What do you disagree with. That we need a new QB? Or the O line needs imrovement?

Your rebuttal was a little vague

[CrazyHorse]

Terrible OL? Did you watch the game Sunday? Looked to me like Orton had all day back there.

Im sorry. I was basing it on more than one game. Also left a link up so you could look at the numbers for yourself. I recommend you check out how each lineman grades out as well.

You dont have to take my word for it. The proof is easy to find (if youre willing to see it). Some are so invested in tyhier opinion, the obvious has become a rare affair.

[milkman]

Im sorry. I was basing it on more than one game. Also left a link up so you could look at the numbers for yourself. I recommend you check out how each lineman grades out as well.

You dont have to take my word for it. The proof is easy to find (if youre willing to see it). Some are so invested in tyhier opinion, the obvious has become a rare affair.

I don't really care about whatever numbers you provided.

I don't understand how you can watch Cassel and reach the conclusion he isn't among the worst in the league, especially after seeing how much better a mediocre QB performed, and how much better the O-Line performed with that mediocre QB.

[CrazyHorse]

Cassel 25th in rating (76.6), 28th in YPA (6.37), 28th in yards per game (190), 20th in completion % (59.5).

The numbers I used were from 2010. Those are that is what the arguements in this thread were based on. Hid comp% was lower and he had his run game and the line played better. This line wouldnt place 25th this season. It would be lower Im sure. He was 25th in rating then too. 16th yards per game.

We need a better QB no matter how you slice it.

[Extra Point]

With all this bullshit talk about Orton crumbling in the redzone, if all our plays were running Battle on the diagonal after getting there, we would have had 4-11 more points than last game.

[whoman69]

The numbers I used were from 2010. Those are that is what the arguements in this thread were based on. Hid comp% was lower and he had his run game and the line played better. This line wouldnt place 25th this season. It would be lower Im sure. He was 25th in rating then too. 16th yards per game.

We need a better QB no matter how you slice it.

for 2010 he was 24th in YPG (207.7), 8th in passing rating (93.0).

[CrazyHorse]

I don't really care about whatever numbers you provided.

I don't understand how you can watch Cassel and reach the conclusion he isn't among the worst in the league, especially after seeing how much better a mediocre QB performed, and how much better the O-Line performed with that mediocre QB.

There are variables. Besides, Im not sure where you read that I said he was a good QB. But I didnt. I did say he made the team better than the O line graded out.

Play calling was much different in the last game. Downfield passes were thrown. We didnt go into a shell with a 3 point lead. Those were also reasons for our success. However, that line couldnt get us in the end zone from the 5 on 4 occasions.

If you had better reading skills and werent soooooo invested in the Cassel BS around here, you would see that I agree that we need a new Qb. Just not willing to say he's the only thing wrong with the offense. Blaming all our problems on one guy is just lazy and shows little football knowledge.

Did you notice we had a different coach on Sunday too? Yes. Things looked a little different.

[Extra Point]

Did you notice we had a different coach on Sunday too? Yes. Things looked a little different.

This!

[CrazyHorse]

for 2010 he was 24th in YPG (207.7), 8th in passing rating (93.0).

Not according to the nfl.com link I posted. But okay.

[milkman]

There are variables. Besides, Im not sure where you read that I said he was a good QB. But I didnt. I did say he made the team better than the O line graded out.

Play calling was much different in the last game. Downfield passes were thrown. We didnt go into a shell with a 3 point lead. Those were also reasons for our success. However, that line couldnt get us in the end zone from the 5 on 4 occasions.

If you had better reading skills and werent soooooo invested in the Cassel BS around here, you would see that I aggree that we need a new Qb. Just not willing to say he's the only thing wtrong with the offense. Blamingh all our problems on one guy is just lazy and shows little football knowledge.

Did you notice we had a different coach on Sunday too? Yes. Things looked a little different.

The O-Line graded out so poorly because Matt Cassel is a terrible QB.

He hold the ball to long, delivers it late and inaccurately.

We went downfield in this game because Orton, a mediocre QB, at best, can actually make reads and make the throws.

If Cassel's first read downfield isn't open, he either dumps it off to his safety valve, or holds the ball and takes a sack or runs from pressure.

[Ming the Merciless]

If orton is the answer what is the question

[CrazyHorse]

The O-Line graded out so poorly because Matt Cassel is a terrible QB.

He hold the ball to long, delivers it late and inaccurately.

We went downfield in this game because Orton, a mediocre QB, at best, can actually make reads and make the throws.

If Cassel's first read downfield isn't open, he either dumps it off to his safety valve, or holds the ball and takes a sack or runs from pressure.

Uh huh.

He probably gives Brandon Albert the wrong snap count once or twice a game just to draw attention away from himself.

I hear he leaves the toilet seat up too.

That motherfucker is no good on any level.

You're kind of a one trick pony, aint ya?

Good night.

[Garcia Bronco]

Be weary of looking at Orton's 2010 stats. 25 percent was garbage time stats.

[CrazyHorse]

Be weary of looking at Orton's 2010 stats. 25 percent was garbage time stats.

After McDaniels got done with that roster, all time was garbage time.

Now it's Tebow time.

Same difference.

[Extra Point]

The O-Line graded out so poorly because Matt Cassel is a terrible QB.

He hold the ball to long, delivers it late and inaccurately.

We went downfield in this game because Orton, a mediocre QB, at best, can actually make reads and make the throws.

If Cassel's first read downfield isn't open, he either dumps it off to his safety valve, or holds the ball and takes a sack or runs from pressure.

The O-line graded poorly because of micro-managing, clueless, head-coaching. Haley's off-the-cuff actions, without any half-time adjustments, got him canned. The O-line stats, he can glue with shit, in his scrapbook.

[BigMeatballDave]

Uh huh.

He probably gives Brandon Albert the wrong snap count once or twice a game just to draw attention away from himself.

I hear he leaves the toilet seat up too.

That motherfucker is no good on any level.

You're kind of a one trick pony, aint ya?

Good night.Good God, man. Learn a little about pre-snap adjustments and a QB that can actually read a D.

[milkman]

Uh huh.

He probably gives Brandon Albert the wrong snap count once or twice a game just to draw attention away from himself.

I hear he leaves the toilet seat up too.

That mother****er is no good on any level.

You're kind of a one trick pony, aint ya?

Good night.

Do a quick search of O-line play throughout the league, you'll find that teams with good QBs have fewer false start penalties than teams with bad QBs.

So, yes, Cassel does have an affect.

[ChiefsCountry]

Uh huh.

He probably gives Brandon Albert the wrong snap count once or twice a game just to draw attention away from himself.

I hear he leaves the toilet seat up too.

That mother****er is no good on any level.

You're kind of a one trick pony, aint ya?

Good night.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rKvAmdl5y-8/S1R8m2fRGSI/AAAAAAAACms/QttHAokvkq0/s400/Fingers+in+ear.jpg

[Epic Fail 007]

OK he has the same stats avg as Cassle. BS! My dad and I argue about the Cheifs as if we're Pioli and Haley. I told him 3 weeeks ago, "dude. We finally have our QB." He looked at me like I was crazy and borderline ignored me.

I tried explaining to him we finaly have a qb that can make all of the throws. All he could muster up was he wasn't shit in Denve and he wasn Shit in Chicago. I told him he had good stats lat yar and turned Brandn Lloyd into NFLs #1 wr last year. He wasn't buying it but my point was valid.

I further went to explain that now Orton had something he's NEVER had as far as weapons. Now he has 2 BIG WRs as well as a WR that will stretch the field. Add JC and Moeki coming back next year and I think we can be a top 5 offense with Orton.

I just don't understand why people think he's a fluke ad try to compare him to Cassle when he's HEAD AND SHOULDERS above Cassel in EVERY category. I'll go so far as to say we don't need to draft qb this year if we sign Orton... I'm als thinking with Berry coming back and a O tackle and another stud LB to complement DJ, we're poised for a SUPERBOWL RUN!

I agree,your right.Ortons everything you need in a qb,screw all you that disagree

[BigMeatballDave]

Im sorry. I was basing it on more than one game. Also left a link up so you could look at the numbers for yourself. I recommend you check out how each lineman grades out as well.

You dont have to take my word for it. The proof is easy to find (if youre willing to see it). Some are so invested in tyhier opinion, the obvious has become a rare affair.

I don't need any fucking numbers to tell me Orton played better Sunday than Cassel has EVER played as a Chief.

How many times was Orton sacked?

[Brock]

I agree,your right.Ortons everything you need in a qb,screw all you that disagree

Of course is! That's why he's on his third team.

[Mr. Laz]

I think the Rams should cut Bradford ... i'm mean he is doing such a shitty job of making everyone else around him better.

McDaniels - shitty coaching should be handled by Bradford
Shitty Oline - no excuse, Mr. Bradford
crappy WR's - throw it better
shitty Defense - scored more points

[milkman]

I think the Rams should cut Bradford ... i'm mean he is doing such a shitty job of making everyone else around him better.

McDaniels - shitty coaching should be handled by Bradford
Shitty Oline - no excuse, Mr. Bradford
crappy WR's - throw it better
shitty Defense - scored more points

I bet it hasn't even occured to you that the "drafturbators" that believed that Bradford wasn't all that were actually right?

[MahiMike]

Orton is da man! He finally has the weapons and coach to be successful.

[CrazyHorse]

Do a quick search of O-line play throughout the league, you'll find that teams with good QBs have fewer false start penalties than teams with bad QBs.

So, yes, Cassel does have an affect.

See what I mean? You have been sooooo invested in the Cassel rhetoric around here you dont even realize how stupid it is to blame the QB for Albert to jump 1-2 times a game. Why dont the rest of them jump as often if its all Cassels fault?

Man, you been cryin so long you forgot you had to make sense. How am I supposed to take that shit seriously?

So what are you trying to say, we could use a better QB? I belive we already agree on that. But you're gonna have trouble convincing me that the o linemen themselves aren't responsible for jumping. Its a lack of discipline on the o linemean. Not tyhe QBLMAO damn

[ChiefsCountry]

I bet it hasn't even occured to you that the "drafturbators" that believed that Bradford wasn't all that were actually right?

Laz always has to be butthurt over something, everybody blaming Cassel is his new butthurt thing.

[BigMeatballDave]

Laz always has to be butthurt over something, everybody blaming Cassel is his new butthurt thing.

He has got to be the biggest bitch here.

[CrazyHorse]

I think the Rams should cut Bradford ... i'm mean he is doing such a shitty job of making everyone else around him better.

McDaniels - shitty coaching should be handled by Bradford
Shitty Oline - no excuse, Mr. Bradford
crappy WR's - throw it better
shitty Defense - scored more points

You forgot the defense.

[ChiefsCountry]

You forgot the defense.

He mentioned defense you dense stupid fucker.

[petegz28]

OK he has the same stats avg as Cassle. BS! My dad and I argue about the Cheifs as if we're Pioli and Haley. I told him 3 weeeks ago, "dude. We finally have our QB." He looked at me like I was crazy and borderline ignored me.

I tried explaining to him we finaly have a qb that can make all of the throws. All he could muster up was he wasn't shit in Denve and he wasn Shit in Chicago. I told him he had good stats lat yar and turned Brandn Lloyd into NFLs #1 wr last year. He wasn't buying it but my point was valid.

I further went to explain that now Orton had something he's NEVER had as far as weapons. Now he has 2 BIG WRs as well as a WR that will stretch the field. Add JC and Moeki coming back next year and I think we can be a top 5 offense with Orton.

I just don't understand why people think he's a fluke ad try to compare him to Cassle when he's HEAD AND SHOULDERS above Cassel in EVERY category. I'll go so far as to say we don't need to draft qb this year if we sign Orton... I'm als thinking with Berry coming back and a O tackle and another stud LB to complement DJ, we're poised for a SUPERBOWL RUN!

He is so far above Cassel it's crazy. That being said, Orton is probably a slightly above average QB. Last year in Denver he had no running game and no defense. This year they got rid of all their good WR's and Denver is winning by gimmick though I think their defense and running game is pretty good. Tebow will not be their answer unless he gets a lot better throwing the ball.

Back to Orton though, pocket presence, goes through progressions and throws a good ball. The first long pass he hit to Pope he pump faked to the right, waited for the double-move to open, when it didn't he immediately went to the other side of the field where our TE was wide open 30 yards down field and threw a laser.

Cassel could never do that.

[milkman]

See what I mean? You have been sooooo invested in the Cassel rhetoric around here you dont even realize how stupid it is to blame the QB for Albert to jump 1-2 times a game. Why dont the rest of them jump as often if its all Cassels fault?

Man, you been cryin so long you forgot you had to make sense. How am I supposed to take that shit seriously?

So what are you trying to say, we could use a better QB? I belive we already agree on that. But you're gonna have trouble convincing me that the o linemen themselves aren't responsible for jumping. Its a lack of discipline on the o linemean. Not tyhe QBLMAO damn

Albert jumps 1 or 2 times a game?

He has 6 false starts, you useless dumbass.

[CrazyHorse]

Laz always has to be butthurt over something, everybody blaming Cassel is his new butthurt thing.

Do you ever talk football. All night all you do is throw shit. You have nothing resembling insight or rebuttal. What? You dont think peope recognize that you cant argue, so you just throw a fit insted. thats weak shit, bud. If you cant run with the big dogs, keep your ass on the porch.

[ChiefsCountry]

Do you ever talk football. All night all you do is throw shit. You have nothing resembling insight or rebuttal. What? You dont think peope recognize that you cant argue, so you just throw a fit insted. thats weak shit, bud. If you cant run with the big dogs, keep your ass on the porch.

I talk football way more than your dumbass, but why spend my time with an argument when a dumb fucker like you who knows nothing about football. I have argued with your dumbass for along time but you are just a stupid fucking idiot.

[BigMeatballDave]

Do you ever talk football. All night all you do is throw shit. You have nothing resembling insight or rebuttal. What? You dont think peope recognize that you cant argue, so you just throw a fit insted. thats weak shit, bud. If you cant run with the big dogs, keep your ass on the porch.

Don't post stupid comments and this wont happen.

[CrazyHorse]

Albert jumps 1 or 2 times a game?

He has 6 false starts, you useless dumbass.

He has more than anyone else. Or at least it seems like it.

I guess Cassels not as bad as we thought then, huh? Seeing as how its his fault for jumping. And you calling anyone a dumbass is a riot. It also means Im winning the debate. Dont be angry.

It hasn't been that difficult.

I guess Ill go to bed now. You're free to insult me, throw up BS stats or anything else you would do knowing Im not here. Have a great night and an even better Christmas.

God Bless you.

[CrazyHorse]

Don't post stupid comments and this wont happen.

Oh, I see. Im being puinished.LMAO

[petegz28]

He has more than anyone else. Or at least it seems like it.

I guess Cassels not as bad as we thought then, huh? Seeing as how its his fault for jumping. And you calling anyone a dumbass is a riot. It also means Im winning the debate. Dont be angry.

It hasn't been that difficult.

I guess Ill go to bed now. You're free to insult me, throw up BS stats or anything else you would do knowing Im not here. Have a great night and an even better Christmas.

God Bless you.

Pope probably has more and is in less.

[CrazyHorse]

I talk football way more than your dumbass, but why spend my time with an argument when a dumb ****er like you who knows nothing about football. I have argued with your dumbass for along time but you are just a stupid ****ing idiot.

Sorry.

Its pretty obvious going back and looking at your previous football posts, you're waayyy too smart for me. Carry on studLMAO

[ChiefsCountry]

Sorry.

Its pretty obvious going back and looking at your previous football posts, you're waayyy too smart for me. Carry on studLMAO

I am way smarter than you especially about football.

[CrazyHorse]

Pope probably has more and is in less.

You might be right. According to some, you can blame Cassel for him false starting. Pope shouldnt be held accountable for jumping.

[milkman]

He has more than anyone else. Or at least it seems like it.

I guess Cassels not as bad as we thought then, huh? Seeing as how its his fault for jumping. And you calling anyone a dumbass is a riot. It also means Im winning the debate. Dont be angry.

It hasn't been that difficult.

I guess Ill go to bed now. You're free to insult me, throw up BS stats or anything else you would do knowing Im not here. Have a great night and an even better Christmas.

God Bless you.

I don't mince words with the kind of subtle insults you were throwing around.

I was debating civilly until you threw out the third or fourth insult.

I simply returned volley, dumbass.

[milkman]

You might be right. According to some, you can blame Cassel for him false starting. Pope shouldnt be held accountable for jumping.

Jake Long has 5 false starts this season.

He sucks, too, right?

[CrazyHorse]

I am way smarter than you especially about football.

Uh huh.

Im impressed.

Ive only been involved with football for the last 35 years. One thing I did learn however, is that you dont know everything watching football on TV. Especially, grading players.

I know enough to know you're full of shit as a human being. How could i not know that with the post count you have.

But I could definately still learn more about football.

[CrazyHorse]

Jake Long has 5 false starts this season.

He sucks, too, right?

Jake Long = Brandon Albert?

Ill take your word for it.

Or wait.....do you mean Jake Long is a victim of poor QB play so he false starts because of it?

Which is it?

Ill check your answer in the morning bro.

[ChiefsCountry]

I know enough to know you're full of shit as a human being. How could i not know that with the post count you have.


Go fist yourself you worthless cock sucker.

[Sutter Cane]

You are only justified in taking one if you evaluate the guy properly. For example, if I am a QB starved organization, and I allow myself to drool over JaMarcus Russel's workout and draft him No 1 overall instead of Calvin Johnsnon, just because I feel the need to draft a QB in the first round and want to roll the dice, and get intoxicated with visions of JaMarcus leading my franchise for the next decade because of all of his physical tools, then I should lose my job. You are better off with Kyle Orton/Calvin Johnson than you are with Russell.

Again, this is not to say you don't take a guy in the first round, it is to say that when you do, or when you trade your entire draft for one, you better be sure that guy is gonna be the difference maker between being an OK team and being a Super Bowl contender. Otherwise you've just set your franchise back another 3-5 years and wasted a first.

Easier said than done of course, QB is a tough position to project from college to NFL. But that guy better be worth that pick. If I have the ability to trade up for Andrew Luck, or if I have a conviction about RGIII, do I go out and try to make it happen? Yeah. But if I am not in a position to take those guys, do I draft Landry Jones because he's there? Not if I am not sold on Landry Jones being a SIGNIFICANT upgrade over who I have at this level, and not if there is a better player available that will also help my team. I mean, I'm not going to sit here and give Jacksonville props for drafting and whiffing on Gabbert because they at least tried to replace Gerrard. They got it wrong, and set their franchise further back. In my book, you don't get brownie points for trying, you better do it right...

Pretty much my thoughts on the subject as well.

[tredadda]

I honestly don't get the logic behind thinking trading up for a QB sets this franchise back years if he busts. With the new rookie cap, these players don't cost nearly as much. Also the only way to truly see how giving up that many picks could set us back is to assume every pick we made was a pro bowler or solid starter. Not once has this team ever had that type of success in any draft. Honestly I would give up our entire 2009 draft for a player like Luck or RGIII, although many people would have thought that foolish because that could set this franchise back or it would be too much to give up for one guy.

[NJChiefsFan]

I honestly don't get the logic behind thinking trading up for a QB sets this franchise back years if he busts. With the new rookie cap, these players don't cost nearly as much. Also the only way to truly see how giving up that many picks could set us back is to assume every pick we made was a pro bowler or solid starter. Not once has this team ever had that type of success in any draft. Honestly I would give up our entire 2009 draft for a player like Luck or RGIII, although many people would have thought that foolish because that could set this franchise back or it would be too much to give up for one guy.

The big issue I have is the other solution. There were/are those afraid of doing so yet are fine investing years in Cassel or perhaps a year or two in Orton. They are willing to gamble years for them but not the rookie. Has either done enough in the past to think the risk of letting them try to win a SB is lower than doing so with a young QB?

[tredadda]

The big issue I have is the other solution. There were/are those afraid of doing so yet are fine investing years in Cassel or perhaps a year or two in Orton. They are willing to gamble years for them but not the rookie. Has either done enough in the past to think the risk of letting them try to win a SB is lower than doing so with a young QB?

Nope. But the fear of a first round QB busting on this team has scared many away from wanting to do it and instead they want to try and win with a retread QB. Never mind that players at all positions in the first round bust, if they do you just try again, but heaven forbid a QB do it. We might go winless or not sniff the playoffs for decades to follow. I am just glad those fans are few and far between.

[ClevelandBronco]

I haven't read this whole thread, but if Orton is the answer, the question should be rephrased.

[Hammock Parties]

Albert has jumped offsides 5 times all year.

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8792&team=12

He is a fine left tackle.

[Hammock Parties]

This line wouldnt place 25th this season. It would be lower Im sure.

Explain this:

Offensive Line Pass Blocking Efficiency
The Pro Football Focus "Pass Blocking Efficiency" rating measures pressure allowed on a per-snap basis with weighting toward sacks allowed.

http://i40.tinypic.com/24wfu48.jpg

[Hammock Parties]

He probably gives Brandon Albert the wrong snap count once or twice a game just to draw attention away from himself.

I hear he leaves the toilet seat up too.

That motherfucker is no good on any level.
.

Oh?

Explain this.

Offensive Tackle Pass Blocking Efficiency
The Pro Football Focus "Pass Blocking Efficiency" rating measures pressure allowed on a per-snap basis with weighting toward sacks allowed.

http://i44.tinypic.com/flak1s.jpg

[tredadda]

Oh?

Explain this.

Offensive Tackle Pass Blocking Efficiency
The Pro Football Focus "Pass Blocking Efficiency" rating measures pressure allowed on a per-snap basis with weighting toward sacks allowed.

http://i44.tinypic.com/flak1s.jpg

Keep showing stats like that and you might just convince someone that we don't need to draft a LT in the first round.

[BigMeatballDave]

Crazyhorse = Owned

[Dexter Manley]

Oh?

Explain this.

Offensive Tackle Pass Blocking Efficiency
The Pro Football Focus "Pass Blocking Efficiency" rating measures pressure allowed on a per-snap basis with weighting toward sacks allowed.

http://i44.tinypic.com/flak1s.jpg


Pittsburgh Steeler rookie ORT Marvel Smith "allowed" three sacks in his opening start to Courtney Brown. The first was a bull rush where the QB ran into Brown while escaping another defender, and Smith's protection held almost 5 full seconds. The second, Smith blocked down and let Brown go free. The third was another case where the QB held the ball too long, and then essentially scrambled right into Brown again.

Marvel Smith did extremely well his opening start. He "allowed" three sacks on your BS "chart..."

[Dexter Manley]

David Stewart!!!!!!!!

LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Gets help almost every time in pass protection - has since Shawn Lights Out torched him badly in the playoffs a few years ago...

[ClevelandBronco]

Explain this.

http://i44.tinypic.com/flak1s.jpg

Clearly, Cleveland is Super Bowl bound.

[Hammock Parties]

Pittsburgh Steeler rookie ORT Marvel Smith "allowed" three sacks in his opening start to Courtney Brown. The first was a bull rush where the QB ran into Brown while escaping another defender, and Smith's protection held almost 5 full seconds. The second, Smith blocked down and let Brown go free. The third was another case where the QB held the ball too long, and then essentially scrambled right into Brown again.

Marvel Smith did extremely well his opening start. He "allowed" three sacks on your BS "chart..."

What the fuck are you even talking about?

Marvel Smith doesn't play for the Steelers.

His rookie year was 2000, and PFF wasn't even in existence.

HE'S NOT EVEN IN THE LEAGUE ANYMORE.

[BigMeatballDave]

Pittsburgh Steeler rookie ORT Marvel Smith "allowed" three sacks in his opening start to Courtney Brown. The first was a bull rush where the QB ran into Brown while escaping another defender, and Smith's protection held almost 5 full seconds. The second, Smith blocked down and let Brown go free. The third was another case where the QB held the ball too long, and then essentially scrambled right into Brown again.

Marvel Smith did extremely well his opening start. He "allowed" three sacks on your BS "chart..."

BS Chart?

You can leave out the O for OLT and ORT. We are well aware that you are referring to the offensive line.

[ClevelandBronco]

BS Chart?

You can leave out the O for OLT and ORT. We are well aware that you are referring to the offensive line.

And he could have left the B off of BS.

[jd1020]

BS Chart?

You can leave out the O for OLT and ORT. We are well aware that you are referring to the offensive line.

When referring to sacks, LT and RT could have a very different meaning.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

You are only justified in taking one if you evaluate the guy properly. For example, if I am a QB starved organization, and I allow myself to drool over JaMarcus Russel's workout and draft him No 1 overall instead of Calvin Johnsnon, just because I feel the need to draft a QB in the first round and want to roll the dice, and get intoxicated with visions of JaMarcus leading my franchise for the next decade because of all of his physical tools, then I should lose my job. You are better off with Kyle Orton/Calvin Johnson than you are with Russell.

Again, this is not to say you don't take a guy in the first round, it is to say that when you do, or when you trade your entire draft for one, you better be sure that guy is gonna be the difference maker between being an OK team and being a Super Bowl contender. Otherwise you've just set your franchise back another 3-5 years and wasted a first.

Easier said than done of course, QB is a tough position to project from college to NFL. But that guy better be worth that pick. If I have the ability to trade up for Andrew Luck, or if I have a conviction about RGIII, do I go out and try to make it happen? Yeah. But if I am not in a position to take those guys, do I draft Landry Jones because he's there? Not if I am not sold on Landry Jones being a SIGNIFICANT upgrade over who I have at this level, and not if there is a better player available that will also help my team. I mean, I'm not going to sit here and give Jacksonville props for drafting and whiffing on Gabbert because they at least tried to replace Gerrard. They got it wrong, and set their franchise further back. In my book, you don't get brownie points for trying, you better do it right...

You don't just pick any swinging dick, but I'll let you in on a little secret: every QB prospect has flaws, and if this fanbase has demonstrated anything, it's the ability to say, "yeah, well, I'm not ready to draft a guy who lacks _____" where the blank changes every year. There are certain guys like Jamarcus Russell who should send up huge red flags to anyone, but you can't sit here and honestly say that the Chiefs have tried to make QB a priority in the draft. If they had, they would have either drafted one when he fell to or near them, or traded up for one.

We're not talking about taking Jim Druckenmiller or Landry Jones b/c he's the highest rated guy, it's realizing the importance of the position and doing everything possible to get the guy you think has the goods. It's precisely the opposite of settling.

[Chris Meck]

I think that's true, however, if he's going to have flaws, I would rather they be physical ones-NOT mental/character issues.

You could see the Russell flameout coming a mile away.

I'd take an Andy Dalton, for instance, over a Blaine Gabbert or a Ryan Mallett. All have flaws, but I think Dalton's got the better chance to be a long term plus player at the most important position.

[-King-]

What the fuck are you even talking about?

Marvel Smith doesn't play for the Steelers.

His rookie year was 2000, and PFF wasn't even in existence.

HE'S NOT EVEN IN THE LEAGUE ANYMORE.

ROFL
Posted via Mobile Device

[htismaqe]

Pittsburgh Steeler rookie ORT Marvel Smith "allowed" three sacks in his opening start to Courtney Brown. The first was a bull rush where the QB ran into Brown while escaping another defender, and Smith's protection held almost 5 full seconds. The second, Smith blocked down and let Brown go free. The third was another case where the QB held the ball too long, and then essentially scrambled right into Brown again.

Marvel Smith did extremely well his opening start. He "allowed" three sacks on your BS "chart..."

All of the other BS aside, PFF would have credited Smith with ONE sack.

The 2 times the QB scrambled into the defender would have been credited TO THE QUARTERBACK.

You obviously don't have a clue how PFF does their analysis.

[CrazyHorse]

Explain this:

Offensive Line Pass Blocking Efficiency
The Pro Football Focus "Pass Blocking Efficiency" rating measures pressure allowed on a per-snap basis with weighting toward sacks allowed.

http://i40.tinypic.com/24wfu48.jpg

I never said his pass blocking skills were poor. I said it seems like he is jumping all the time. Maybe he dont. Maybe it just seemed that way to me. Maybe he does it at crucial times.

What I did say however is that our O line was one of the worst in the league. That they graded out poorly. Then I put up the numbers to support it.

Staying on point seems to be a real problem around here. Every point winds up as some type of circle jerk that seldom stays on the original post. Its like you're talking to a biunch of stoned idiots or children that are offended.

The point I was trying to make in my original post (before the circle jerk) was that there are more problems on this offense than the QB. The O line is just as much to blame if not more than the QB. Somehow that has offended some here. So here are the arguements I have heard so far to dispute that post.

You suck.
Cassel sucks
Cassel sucks
Cassel sucks
Cassel sucks
Brandon Albert rocks
And who could forget the assorted name calling
A couple more Cassel sucks
Another Brandon Albert is top 5 LT
And my favorite, Brandon Alberts false starts are Cassels fault.


In the end I just have to say, if anyone actually thinks this is a good O line, they havent watched the same games I have. A good line is what we had when Holmes was here and Green was the QB. The right side of our line might be the worst in the game today. Not sure if they are or not, but they are pretty bad. I dont give a damn what the numbers are. The unit as a whole is rated at the bottom of the league.

As for Cassel. I agree, he's a middle of the road QB on his best day.

Im not sure what we are even argueing about. It seems like you people are high or something. I remember my 1st joint. I wasnt so confrontational. I laughed more. But it was hard to stay focused. My mind wondered. Very much like the average thread on CP.

Just in case its me lets make it simple. Maybe you're right and Im wrong. Maybe Im unreasonable. So let me recap just in case.

My basic original post.

1. Cassels sucks
2. The O line sucks

There you go.

If you disagree, I am more than willing to debate it with you on a reasonable basis. If you just want to argue for the sake of argueing, save it for those that love you. If you want to call a bunch of names, you're welcome to do so. But I'll just blow you off as someone who has lost the debate and deflecting.

I am willing to conceed that Albert dont jump as often as I thought. Maybe he just does it at the worst time and it stuck out to me. Either way, I never said he was the whole problem. He is part of the problem though.

[The Franchise]

Albert is not the problem.

And could you be any more vague in your argument?

The right side of our line might be the worst in the game today. Not sure if they are or not, but they are pretty bad. I dont give a damn what the numbers are. The unit as a whole is rated at the bottom of the league.

Oh....and HOW DARE YOU GIVE ME STATS TO BACK UP YOUR ARGUMENT!?!? YOU'RE WRONG!

[CrazyHorse]

Albert is not the problem.

And could you be any more vague in your argument?



Oh....and HOW DARE YOU GIVE ME STATS TO BACK UP YOUR ARGUMENT!?!? YOU'RE WRONG!

I just meant they may not be the absolute worst, but they are close. I agree, Albert is not the worst of the bunch. However, there's room for improvement. I guess I've been spoiled over the years with the o lines of the past. Right now, he might be our best. Whatever thats worth.

[Hammock Parties]

What I did say however is that our O line was one of the worst in the league. That they graded out poorly. Then I put up the numbers to support it.


They don't grade out poorly, though.

They grade out very well.

[morphius]

I've actually wondered how much Haley's fitness requirements have actually made it harder for the OL and DL play their positions. There are some positions where the added weight is a bonus.

[Bump]

I think that's true, however, if he's going to have flaws, I would rather they be physical ones-NOT mental/character issues.

You could see the Russell flameout coming a mile away.

I'd take an Andy Dalton, for instance, over a Blaine Gabbert or a Ryan Mallett. All have flaws, but I think Dalton's got the better chance to be a long term plus player at the most important position.

hindsight makes you wicked smaht

[Brock]

I just meant they may not be the absolute worst, but they are close. I agree, Albert is not the worst of the bunch. However, there's room for improvement. I guess I've been spoiled over the years with the o lines of the past. Right now, he might be our best. Whatever thats worth.

Yeah, those o lines of the past that didn't accomplish a damn thing.

[petegz28]

I just meant they may not be the absolute worst, but they are close. I agree, Albert is not the worst of the bunch. However, there's room for improvement. I guess I've been spoiled over the years with the o lines of the past. Right now, he might be our best. Whatever thats worth.

Albert would be better if he were 20 pounds heavier. Same goes for most of our O-line.

[Dexter Manley]

ROFL
Posted via Mobile Device


Neither is former #1 overall pick Courtney Brown, genius...

It doesn't change the reality that stat parroting produces inaccurate results. The claim that Dave Stewart is good in pass protection is a tribute to the idiocy of your spreadsheet. But you have to be able to understand the football you watch...

I'm curious.

What did your spreadsheet say about the current NFL sack leader three years ago when he was here??

[Dexter Manley]

All of the other BS aside, PFF would have credited Smith with ONE sack.

The 2 times the QB scrambled into the defender would have been credited TO THE QUARTERBACK.

You obviously don't have a clue how PFF does their analysis.


Indeed, I don't and I really don't care, since it is "subjective" then, the sack issue.

And anything that claims Dave Stewart is a good pass blocker is clearly wrong, and it is absolutely pathetic anyone would stand by such a stupid statement...

[Hammock Parties]

Indeed, I don't and I really don't care, since it is "subjective" then, the sack issue.

And anything that claims Dave Stewart is a good pass blocker is clearly wrong, and it is absolutely pathetic anyone would stand by such a stupid statement...

I'm glad you have more insight into the game than a site that is used by NFL teams themselves...and charges for their insight....produced by dozens of individuals who have fine-tuned their product for five years.

[htismaqe]

Indeed, I don't and I really don't care, since it is "subjective" then, the sack issue.

And anything that claims Dave Stewart is a good pass blocker is clearly wrong, and it is absolutely pathetic anyone would stand by such a stupid statement...

ROFL

[CrazyHorse]

Yeah, those o lines of the past that didn't accomplish a damn thing.

The number 1 offense in the legue, in itself is quite an accomplishment. If i were an OL in the NFL I would take pride in being the best in the game.

[Brock]

The number 1 offense in the legue, in itself is quite an accomplishment. If i were an OL in the NFL I would take pride in being the best in the game.

A meaningless footnote.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

The number 1 offense in the legue, in itself is quite an accomplishment. If i were an OL in the NFL I would take pride in being the best in the game.

Spoken like Wilt Chamberlain.

[BossChief]

We need to have one of those lucky years where a guy like Aaron Rodgers plummets down the board and into our laps...

You mean like when it happened in 2005 with Aaron Rogers and we passed....even when we had a 36 year old quarterback at the helm?

We are already at the point that for the next 5 or 6 years we NEED for someone to drop or for us to trade up to get a good quarterback.

This defense and the skill position players we have on offense are already too good to let us lose enough games to be in the top 5-8 picks anymore.

This team needs a young quarterback that it can believe in and grow with for the next 10 years to take advantage of the talent the team has damn near everywhere else.

Before its gone.

And while I do believe Stanzi, I dont think having he and Orton is enough to stop looking.

I want a real shot at WINNING championshipS...not MAYBE getting to ONE if EVERYTHING else falls into place.

[whosyou]

Yeah, what's with it? Clown school.....

[Basileus777]

Apparently one good game against one of the worst defenses in the league doesn't mean much. How shocking. Orton is a lot closer to Cassel than people want to believe.

[Hammock Parties]

Orton sure looks better than Trent Green today. DAMN.

[Reerun_KC]

You dont hitch your franchise to Kyle Orton..

[milkshock]

cassel may even be better than orton

orton clearly lost us the game today

[whosyou]

cassel may even be better than orton

orton clearly lost us the game today

Take cover!

[Reerun_KC]

Dexter bailed out Orton on that drive....

[milkshock]

Take cover!

happy to be proved wrong today but the overall point remains

you cannot leave the franchise in the hands of man like orton

[milkshock]

this game is on orton a decent game from him and we would have won this 31-10

[Reerun_KC]

what's with all the Orton isn't the answer talk?

Its pretty obvious... He isnt the answer...

[DeezNutz]

Mediocre QB shows his true stripes.

[whosyou]

happy to be proved wrong today but the overall point remains

you cannot leave the franchise in the hands of man like orton

Water is wet

[milkman]

cassel may even be better than orton

orton clearly lost us the game today

While I agree that Orton is a mediocre QB, and not the answer at QB for this team, this game was lost because the idiots in charge think that TwoYardTJ is the man to give the ball to in the red zone.

[chiefzilla1501]

For as bad a game as he played, you clearly can't put this on him. He put them in a position to win. Cmon, guys.

[Hammock Parties]

Heh, does anyone even realize Orton threw for 300 yards again?

Dude is great at putting up hollow stats.

[scho63]

I said last week when if he throws 4 INTs no one will won't him to be the QBOTF

[Setsuna]

Thing is, he didn't play bad enough to not get resigned next year and you guys won't get a QB.

[Hammock Parties]

Orton has two 300-yard games in two starts....

Cassel has three 300-yard games in his entire KC career.

LMAO

[milkman]

Heh, does anyone even realize Orton threw for 300 yards again?

Dude is great at putting up hollow stats.

Orton is what he is.

A mediocre game manager who won't win you games.

[jd1020]

Orton has two 300-yard games in two starts....

Cassel has three 300-yard games in his entire KC career.

LMAO

Technically, he has 1.

[Reerun_KC]

While I agree that Orton is a mediocre QB, and not the answer at QB for this team, this game was lost because the idiots in charge think that TwoYardTJ is the man to give the ball to in the red zone.yet people want this moron as head coach.

[Deberg_1990]

yet people want this moron as head coach.

Because he's better than the last moron I guess?? Dumbfounded by the TJ over Battle and even McClain in the redzone as well......

[Reerun_KC]

Because he's better than the last moron I guess?? Dumbfounded by the TJ over Battle and even McClain in the redzone as well......

Running battle or Jones is an embarrassment at any point during a game.

That 4th down play was garbage.

[notorious]

Running battle or Jones is an embarrassment at any point during a game.

That 4th down play was garbage.

Yep, that was the worst playcall I have seen in years.

[dannybcaitlyn]

cassel may even be better than orton

orton clearly lost us the game today

Your a ****ing idiot!!

[lcarus]

While I agree that Orton is a mediocre QB, and not the answer at QB for this team, this game was lost because the idiots in charge think that TwoYardTJ is the man to give the ball to in the red zone.

I agree. Even with the two HORRID interceptions he threw today that cost us dearly, I still like him way better than Cassel. I feel like we have a shot to get a drive put together every time we have the ball. That feeling will increase once we get Charles and Moeaki back, along with getting some OL help.

We should definitely do everything in our power to get a QB in the draft, but if we MUST stick with Orton or Cassel for a year...I hope it's Orton.

[Hammock Parties]

I feel like we have a shot to get a drive put together every time we have the ball.

Yeah, I agree.

I also feel like anytime the protection breaks down, the play is pretty much over.

I hate quarterbacks with lead feet.

A more mobile QB turns those awful intentional groundings into something.

[BillSelfsTrophycase]

cassel may even be better than orton




Orton has two 300-yard games in two starts....

Cassel has three 300-yard games in his entire KC career.

LMAO

Orton is not the answer, but he's miles ahead of Cassel

[CrazyHorse]

A meaningless footnote.

Your right. Being the best o line in the game shouldn't be the goal for an OL. Instead he should also be what........ a policeman?

Here's a footnote. Everything I spoke about last week was proven this week. Leaving many of you holding your collective pricks on the subject.

[milkman]

Your right. Being the best o line in the game shouldn't be the goal for an OL. Instead he should also be what........ a policeman?

Here's a footnote. Everything I spoke about last week was proven this week. Leaving many of you holding your collective pricks on the subject.

No, not everything you talked about was proven.

Not a damn thing you talked about was proven.

Orton was pressured a handful of times today.

[Hammock Parties]

Here's a footnote. Everything I spoke about last week was proven this week. Leaving many of you holding your collective pricks on the subject.

We had over 400 yards of offense, and you want to act like you were right about the offensive line?

Bullshit.

The OL was fine. Not perfect, but they played well enough to win.

Orton screwed the pooch twice, and our FG team screwed it twice more. And Bowe also fucked that dog. That's 12 points, minimum, we left on the field, and 16 if Bowe catches the ball.

[CrazyHorse]

We had over 400 yards of offense, and you want to act like you were right about the offensive line?

Bullshit.

The OL was fine. Not perfect, but they played well enough to win.

Orton screwed the pooch twice, and our FG team screwed it twice more. And Bowe also ****ed that dog. That's 12 points, minimum, we left on the field, and 16 if Bowe catches the ball.

So you hold everyone accountable but the o line (who had a shit load of penalties as well)?

How selective.

[whoman69]

Orton may not be the answer, but he's a better answer than Cassel. He can at least be the response until the answer is found.

[Hammock Parties]

So you hold everyone accountable but the o line (who had a shit load of penalties as well)?

How selective.

I'll hold the OL accountable when they are the reason for the loss, i.e. games like Denver earlier this year and Oakland last year.

They played well enough to win today. You don't rack up 400+ yards without solid OL play.

[boogblaster]

no to Orton .. but he's all we got ... until we see what Stanzi can do .......

[threebag]

Running battle or Jones is an embarrassment at any point during a game.

That 4th down play was garbage.

mecca?

[Brock]

Your right. Being the best o line in the game shouldn't be the goal for an OL. Instead he should also be what........ a policeman?

Here's a footnote. Everything I spoke about last week was proven this week. Leaving many of you holding your collective pricks on the subject.

Since I haven't paid attention to everything you spoke about last week, I don't know what you think was proven this week. You aren't that important.

As to your first paragraph, having the best OL in the league and the highest scoring offense in the league, and the best running game in the league, and whatever other laurels seem to be so important to you didn't mean a goddamn thing. Nothing at all, unless NFL films wants to do a "Missing Rings" documentary about it. There isn't a single player on those teams that wouldn't trade every single offensive record achieved for a championship, or a playoff win for that matter.

[CrazyHorse]

So.......should they stop trying to be the best at thier job then?

I cant find where I said it was better than a championship.

[Hammock Parties]

Crazyhorse was ashamed of his post. LMAO

[chiefzilla1501]

Orton may not be the answer, but he's a better answer than Cassel. He can at least be the response until the answer is found.

Agreed.

[Mr_Tomahawk]

Meh....apples to oranges but if I remember correctly, Cassel had 115 yards, 0 TDs, 2 ints, vs Oakland in week 17 last year.

So regardless of how crappy Orton plays...Orton is a less crappier option than Cassel.

Please draft a qb.

[ChiefsCountry]

Crazyhorse was ashamed of his post. LMAO

It was a dandy, he was saying he was smarter since he didn't have 33k posts.