North Dakota refuses to change their name from "Fighting Sioux"

[MMXcalibur]

http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/138936689.html

BISMARCK, N.D. - The University of North Dakota said Wednesday it will resume using its contentious Fighting Sioux nickname despite threats from the NCAA, marking the latest twist in a protracted fight about a name its critics consider offensive.

A state law that that required the university to use the nickname and a logo that shows the profile of an American Indian warrior was repealed last year. But late Tuesday, supporters of the name filed petitions demanding that the issue be put to a statewide vote

The NCAA has told UND that continued use of the nickname and logo will expose the school to sanctions. If the nickname and logo are kept, the university won't be allowed to host postseason sports tournaments, and its athletes may not wear uniforms with the logo or nickname in postseason play

On a somewhat related note, here's a little known fact: Originally, the people of Kansas City wanted to name their football team the Kansas City WA-WA-WA-WA-WA-WA's, but elected on Chiefs at the last moment.

[lcarus]

Should have named the KC football team the Ass Clowns. We get treated as such by the national media, and often deserve it.

[blaise]

The NCAA is just the worst.

[Pants]

How come the NCAA doesn't find the "Fighting Irish" offensive?

[mnchiefsguy]

Good for them.

[The Franchise]

How come the NCAA doesn't find the "Fighting Irish" offensive?

Because no one gives a fuck about the Irish.

[ReynardMuldrake]

I smell a lawsiouxt.

[Deberg_1990]

When will the Chiefs and Redskins change their names?

[Pants]

Because no one gives a **** about the Irish.

I care about people of all elasticities. :mad:

[Al Bundy]

I smell a lawsiouxt.

:clap:
Rep.

[ReynardMuldrake]

I care about people of all elasticities. :mad:

You know how many potatoes it takes to kill an Irishman? None.

[Pants]

You know how many potatoes it takes to kill an Irishman? None.

LMAO

That's terrible.

[Demonpenz]

it's all about he money. I remember they wanted to change \ Hawaii's Logo, but Fishnet Shirts with the schools logo on it continues to be a best seller.

[Imon Yourside]

You know how many potatoes it takes to kill an Irishman? None.

Racist!

[Frazod]

Outstanding.

If the cocksuckers don't like it, I guess they shouldn't have lost.

[ReynardMuldrake]

Racist!

Are you going to sanction me?

[Lex Luthor]

This whole issue of getting rid of Indian names for sports teams has always pissed me off. You don't name your sports team after a group of people in order to disrespect them. You do it to honor them.

[Dartgod]

Because no one gives a **** about the Irish.

All right... we'll give some land to the niggers and the chinks. But we don't want the Irish!

[Saulbadguy]

This whole issue of getting rid of Indian names for sports teams has always pissed me off. You don't name your sports team after a group of people in order to disrespect them. You do it to honor them.

This just screams "honor" :

http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/c/cleveland_indians_mascot-9358.gif

[Imon Yourside]

Are you going to sanction me?

Being part Irish i sentence thee to be filled with spuds and drowned by beer.

[WV]

I understand getting rid of Chief Wahoo and stuff that could be considered offensive, but what exactly is wrong with the Fighting Sioux? Don't see any negative connotations there.

[Imon Yourside]

This whole issue of getting rid of Indian names for sports teams has always pissed me off. You don't name your sports team after a group of people in order to disrespect them. You do it to honor them.

I agree, i don't understand it.

[mnchiefsguy]

All right... we'll give some land to the ****ers and the chinks. But we don't want the Irish!

Rep for the Blazing Saddles reference. LMAO

[blaise]

I understand getting rid of Chief Wahoo and stuff that could be considered offensive, but what exactly is wrong with the Fighting Sioux? Don't see any negative connotations there.

I think it's a game to some people. What can I bitch about to make something change. Then they feel like they've accomplished something.

[Gonzo]

TBH here, if they want to be accurate and all...
Shouldn't they change their names to either The Government Cheese-Eating Sioux or the Brown Bottle-Flu Sioux?

[blaise]

Change the name and let the memory of them slip further into obscurity. That seems to be what they want.

[Bearcat]

A big part of the drama is that one tribe actually approves of the name, but there's a second tribe who does not.

[Lex Luthor]

This just screams "honor" :

http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/c/cleveland_indians_mascot-9358.gif
It's a freaking cartoon. Maybe some Orioles should file a lawsuit over this:

http://logoinspirations.com/wp-content/themes/gallerypro/timthumb/timthumb.php?src=http://logoinspirations.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Baltimore-Orioles-ALT2.jpg&w=500&h=375&zc=1

[Saulbadguy]

It's a freaking cartoon. Maybe some Orioles should file a lawsuit over this:

http://logoinspirations.com/wp-content/themes/gallerypro/timthumb/timthumb.php?src=http://logoinspirations.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Baltimore-Orioles-ALT2.jpg&w=500&h=375&zc=1

Orioles can't sue anyone. They are birds.

[mikey23545]

This just screams "honor" :


What a sniveling little fuck you are....ROFL

[Dartgod]

Orioles can't sue anyone. They are birds.

Now you've done it.

http://theticketbooth.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/thebirds11.jpg

[Saulbadguy]

Now you've done it.

http://theticketbooth.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/thebirds11.jpg

Oh shit. I rescind my post.

[mikey23545]

I'll show you an offensive mascot:

http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/5874/11083103.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/814/11083103.jpg/)

[Bearcat]

I'll show you an offensive mascot:


And wildcats can sue, since every man is one, right?

[frankotank]

This whole issue of getting rid of Indian names for sports teams has always pissed me off. You don't name your sports team after a group of people in order to disrespect them. You do it to honor them.

exactly! it IS a respect thing. nobody wants to be named "the fighting caucasions" or "the fighting white boys".
("the fighting honkies" would actually be kinda cool though)

[frankotank]

I'll show you an offensive mascot:

http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/5874/11083103.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/814/11083103.jpg/)

this ones waaaay worse. I mean really...WTF? looks like half a ball sack. I find this truly repulsive.
GO BLUE!!!

http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx199/McScrup/Random%20Items/Ohio-State-Football-300x300.jpg

[oldandslow]

Honestly, most of us don't care. We would much rather you kept the Fort Laramie Treaty and just left us alone. The SCOTUS sided with Indians a few decades ago but it didn't mean much. The US decided to make us a "national area of sacrifice" (Richard Nixon coined the term) instead.

Keep the treaty and UND would still be on US soil and folks could name it anything they wanted.

The only Indian name most of us really don't like btw, resides with an NFL team in that liberal mecca, Washington DC.

[Raiderhater]

I'll show you an offensive mascot:

http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/5874/11083103.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/814/11083103.jpg/)


I don't know what the hell that is but, as a K-State fan I am embarrassed.

[excessive]

Kinda long, so most probably won't want to read, but Churchill (yeah, he's a target for conservative venom) offers a clear view of A.I.M.'s position. Off to D.C. we go. . .


Crimes Against Humanity ©
Ward Churchill



During the past couple of seasons, there has been an increasing wave of controversy regarding the names of professional sports teams like the Atlanta "Braves," Cleveland "Indians," Washington "Redskins," and Kansas City "Chiefs." The issue extends to the names of college teams like Florida State University "seminoles," University of Illinois "Fighting Illini," and so on, right on down to high school outfits like the Lamar (Colorado) "Savages." Also involved have been team adoption of "mascots," replete with feathers, buckskins, beads, spears and "warpaint" (some fans have opted to adorn themselves in the same fashion), and nifty little "pep" gestures like the "Indian Chant" and "Tomahawk Chop."

A substantial number of American Indians have protested that use of native names, images and symbols as sports team mascots and the like is, by definition, a virulently racist practice. Given the historical relationship between Indians and non-Indians during what has been called the "Conquest of America," American Indian Movement leader (and American Indian Anti-Defamation Council founder) Russell Means has compared the practice to contemporary Germans naming their soccer teams the "Jews," Hebrews," and "Yids," while adorning their uniforms with grotesque caricatures of Jewish faces taken from the Nazis' anti-Semetic propoganda of the 1930's. Numerous demonstrations have occurred in conjunction with games - most notably during the November 15, 1992 match-up between the Chiefs and Redskins in Kansas City - by angry Indians and their supporters.

In response, a number of players - especially African Americans and other minority athletes - have been trotted out by professional team owners like Ted Turner, as well as university and public school officials, to announce that they mean not to insult but to honor native people. They have been joined by the television networks and most major newspapers, all of which have editorialized that Indian discomfort with the situation is "no big deal," insisting that the whole things is just "good, clean fun." The country needs more such fun, they've argued, and a "few disgruntled Native Americans" have no right to undermine the nation's enjoyment of it's leisure time by complaining. This is especially the case, some have argued, "in hard times like these." It has even been contended that Indian outrage at being systematically degraded - rather than the degradation itself - creates "a serious barrier to the sort of intergroup communication so necessary in a multicultural society such as ours."

Okay. let's communicate. We are frankly dubious that those advancing such positions really believe their own rhetoric but, just for the sake of argument, let's accept the premise that they are sincere. If what they say is true, then isn't it time we spread such "inoffensiveness" and "good cheer" around among all the groups so that everybody can participate equally in fostering the national round of laughs they call for? Sure it is - the country can't have too much fun or "intergroup" involvement - so the more, the merrier. Simple consistency demands that anyone who thinks the Tomahawk Chop is a swell pastime must be just as hearty in their endorsement of the following ideas - by the logic used to defend the defamation of American Indians - should help us all really start yukking it up.

First, as a counterpart to the Redskins, we need an NFL team called "Niggers" to honor Afro-Americans. Half-time festivities for fans might include a simulated stewing of the opposing coach in a large pot while players and cheerleaders dance around it, garbed in leopard skins and wearing fake bones in their noses. This concept obviously goes along with the kind of gaiety attending the Chop, but also with the actions of the Kansas Chiefs, whose team members - prominently including black members - lately appeared on a poster ,looking "fierce" and "savage" by way of wearing Indian regalia. Just a bit of harmless "morale boosting," says the Chief's front office. You bet.

So that the newly-formed Niggers sports club won't end up too out of sync while expressing the "spirit" and "identity" of Afro-Americans in the above fashion, a baseball franchise - let's call this one the "Sambos" - should be formed. How about a basketball team called the "spearchuckers/" A hockey team called the "Jungle Bunnies/" Maybe the "essence of these teams could be depicted by images of tiny black faces adorned with huge pairs of lips. The players could appear on TV every week or so gnawing on chicken legs and spitting watermelon seeds at one another. Catchy, eh? Well, there's "nothing to be upset about," according to those who love wearing "war bonnets" to the Super Bowl or having "Chief Illiniwik" dance around the sports arenas of Urbana, Illinois.

And why stop there? There are plenty of other groups to include. "Hispanics?" They can be "represented" by the Galveston "Greasers" and the San Diego "Spics," at least until the Wisconsin "Wetbacks" and Baltimore "Beaners" get off the ground. Asian Americans? How about the "slopes," "Dinks," "Gooks," and "Zipperheads?" Owners of the latter teams might get their logo ideas from editorial page cartoons printed in the nation's newspapers during World War II: slanteyes, buck teeth, big glasses, but nothing racially insulting or derogatory, according to the editors and artists involved at the time. Indeed, this Second World War-vintage stuff can be seen as just another barrel of laughs at least by what current editors say are their "local standards" concerning American Indians.

Let's see. Who's been left out Teams like the Kansas City "Kikes," Hanover "Honkies," San Leandro "Shylock," Daytona "Dagos," and Pittsburg "Polacks" will fill a certain social void among white folk. Have a religious belief? Let's all go for the gusto and gear up the Milwaukee "Mackeral Snappers" and Hollywood "Holy Rollers." The Fighting Irish of Notre Dame can be rechristened the "Drunken Irish" or "Papist Pigs." Issues of gender and sexual preference can be addressed through creation of teams like the St. Louis "Sluts," Boston "Bimbos," Detroit "Dykes," and the Fresno "Fags." How about the Gainsville "Gimps" and the richmond "Retards," so the physically and mentally impaired won't be excluded from our fun and games?

Now, don't go getting "overly sensitive" out there. None of this is dreaming or insulting, at least not when it's being done to Indians. Just ask the folks who are doing it, or their apologists like Andy Rooney in the national media. They'll tell you - as in fact they have been telling you - that there's no been no harm done, regardless of what their victims think, feel, or say. The situation is exactly the same as when those with precisely the same mentality used to insist that Step 'n' Fetchit was okay, or Rochester on the Jack Benny show, or Amos and Andy, Charlie Chan, the Frito Bandito, or any other cutesy symbols making up the lexicon of American racism. Have we communicated yet? Let's get just a little bit real here. The notion of "fun" embodied in rituals like the Tomahawk Chop must be understood for what it is. There's not a single non-Indian example used above which can be considered socially acceptable in even the most marginal sense. The reasons are obvious enough. So why is it different where American Indians are concerned? One can only conclude that, in contrast to the other groups at issue, Indians are (falsely) perceived as being too few, and therefore too weak, to defend themselves effectively against racist and otherwise offensive behavior.

Fortunately, there are some glimmers of hope. A few teams and their fans have gotten the message and have responded appropriately. Stanford University, which opted to drop the name "Indians" from, has experienced no resulting drop in attendance. Meanwhile, the local newspaper in Portland, Oregon recently decided its long-standing editorial policy prohibiting use of racial epithets should include derogatory teams names. The Redskins, for instance, are now referred to as "the Washington team," and will continued to be described in this way until the franchise adopts an inoffensive moniker (newspaper sales in Portland have suffered no decline as a result). Such examples are to be applauded and encouraged. They stand as figurative beacons in the night, proving beyond all doubt that it is quite possible to indulge in the pleasure of athletics without accepting blatant racism into the bargain.

[excessive]

Nuremburg Precedents

On October 16, 1946, a man named Julius Stricher mounted the steps of a gallows. Moments later he was dead, the sentence of an international tribunal composed of representatives of the United States, France, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union having been imposed. Streicher's body was then cremated, and - so horrendous were his crimes thought to have been - his ashes dumped into an unspecified German river so that "no one should ever know a particular place to go for reasons of mourning his memory."

Julius Streicher had been convicted at Nuremberg, Germany of what were termed "Crimes Against Humanity." The lead prosecutor in his case * Justice Robert Jackson of the United States Supreme Court * had not argued that the defendant had killed anyone, nor that he had personally committed any especially violent act. Nor was it contended that Streicher had held any particularly important position in the German government during the period in which the so called Third Reich had exterminated some 6,000,000 Jews, as well as several million Gypsies, Poles, Slavs, homosexuals, and other untermenschen (subhumans).

The sole offense for which the accused was ordered put to death was in having served as publisher/editor of a Bavarian tabloid entitled Der Sturmer during the early-to-mid 1930s, years before the Nazi genocide actually began. In this capacity, he had penned a long series of virulently anti-Semetic editorials and ''news."

Stories, usually accompanied by cartoons and other images graphically depicting Jews in extraordinarily derogatory fashion. This, the prosecution asserted, had done much to "dehumanize" the targets of his distortion in the mind of the German public. In turn, such dehumanization had made it possible * or at least easier * for average Germans to later indulge in the outright liquidation of Jewish "vermin." The tribunal agreed, holding that Streicher was therefore complicit in genocide and deserving of death by hanging.

During his remarks to the Nuremburg tribunal, Justice Jackson observed that, in implementing its sentences, the participating powers were morally and legally binding themselves to adhere forever after to the same standards of conduct that were being applied to Streicher and the other Nazi leaders. In the alternative, he said, the victorious allies would have committed "pure murder' at Nuremberg * no different in substance from that carried out by those they presumed to judge * rather than establishing the "permanent benchmark for justice" which was intended.

Yet in the United States of Robert Jackson, the indigenous American Indian population had already been reduced, in a process which is ongoing to this day, from perhaps 12.5 million in the year 1500 to fewer than 250,000 by the beginning of the 20th century. This was accomplished, according to official sources, "largely through the cruelty of Euro American settlers," and an informal but clear governmental policy which had made it an articulated goal to "exterminate these red vermin" or at least whole segments of them.

Bounties had been placed on the scalps of Indians * any Indians * in places as diverse as Georgia, Kentucky, Texas, the Dakotas, Oregon, and California and had been maintained until resident Indian populations were decimated or disappeared altogether. Entire peoples such as the Cherokee had been reduced to half their size through a policy of forced removal from their homelands east of the Mississippi River to what were then considered less preferable areas in the West.

Others, such as the Navajo, suffered the same fate while under military guard for years on end. The United States Army had also perpetrated a long series of wholesale massacres of Indians at places like Horseshoe Bend, Bear River, Sand Creek, the Washita River, the Marias River, Camp Robinson and Wounded Knee.

Through it all, hundreds of popular novels - each competing with the next to make Indians appear more grotesque, menacing, and inhuman - were sold in the tens of millions of copies in the U.S. Plainly, the Euro American public was being conditioned to see Indians in such a way so as to allow their eradication to continue. And continue it did until the Manifest Destiny of the U.S * a direct precursor to what Hitler would subsequently call Lebensraumpolitik (the politics of living space) was consummated.

By 1900, the national project of "clearing" Native Americans from their land and replacing them with "superior" Anglo American settlers was complete; the indigenous population had been reduced by as much as 98 percent while approximately 97.5 percent of their original territory had ''passed'' to the invaders. The survivors had been concentrated, out of sight and mind of the public, on scattered "reservations," all of them under the self-assigned "plenary" (full) power of the federal government. There was, of course, no Nuremberg-style tribunal passing judgment on those who had fostered such circumstances in North America. No U.S. official or private citizen was ever imprisoned * never mind hanged * for implementing or propagandizing what had been done. Nor had the process of genocide afflicting Indians been completed. Instead, it merely changed form.

Between the 1880s and the 1980s, nearly half of all Native American children were coercively transferred from their own families, communities, and cultures to those of the conquering society. This was done through compulsory attendance at remote boarding schools, often hundreds of miles from their homes, where native children were kept for years on end while being systematically '"deculturated" (indoctrinated to think and act in the manner of Euro Americans rather than as Indians). It was also accomplished through a pervasive foster home and adoption program * including - blind adoptions, where children would be permanently denied information as to who they were/are and where they'd come from - placing native youths in non-Indian homes.

The express purpose of all this was to facilitate a U.S. governmental policy to bring about the "assimilation" (dissolution) of indigenous societies. In other words, Indian cultures as such were to be caused to disappear. Such policy objectives are directly contrary to the United Nations 1948 Convention on Punishment and Prevention of the Crime of Genocide, an element of international law arising from the Nuremburg proceedings. The forced "transfer of the children" of a targeted "racial, ethnical, or religious group" is explicitly prohibited as a genocidal activity under the Convention's second article.

Article II of the Genocide Convention also expressly prohibits involuntary sterilization as a means of ''preventing births among" a targeted population. Yet, in 1975, it was conceded by the U.S. government that its Indian Health Service (IHS) then a subpart of the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA), was even then conducting a secret program of involuntary sterilization that had affected approximately 40 percent of all Indian women. The program was allegedly discontinued, and the IHS was transferred to the Public Health Service, but no one was punished. In 1990, it came out that the IHS was inoculating, Inuit children in Alaska with Hepatitis-B vaccine. The vaccine had already been banned by the World Health Organization as having demonstrated a correlation with the HIV-Syndrome which is itself correlated to AIDS. As this is written [March, 1993], a "field test" of Hepatitis-A vaccine, also HIV-correlated, is being conducted on Indian reservations in the northern plains region.

The Genocide Convention makes it a crime against "humanity" to create conditions leading to the destruction of an identifiable human group, as such. Yet the BIA has utilized the government's plenary prerogatives to negotiate mineral leases "on behalf of" Indian peoples paying a fraction of standard royalty rates. The result has been "super profits" for a number of preferred U.S. corporations. Meanwhile, Indians, whose reservations ironically turned out to be in some of the most mineral-rich areas of North America, which makes us, the nominally wealthiest segment of the continent's population, live in dire poverty.

By the government's own data in the mid-1980s, Indians received the lowest annual and lifetime per capita incomes of any aggregate population group in the United States. Concomitantly, we suffer the highest rate of infant mortality, death by exposure and malnutrition, disease, and the like. Under such circumstances, alcoholism and other escapist forms of substance abuse are endemic in the Indian community, a situation which leads both to a general physical debilitation of the population and a catastrophic accident rate. Teen suicide among Indians is several times the national average

The average life expectancy of a reservation-based Native American man is barely 45 years; women can expect to live less than three years longer.

Such itemizations could be continued at great length, including matters like the radioactive contamination of large portions of contemporary Indian Country, the forced relocation of traditional Navajos, and so on. But the point should be made: Genocide, as defined in international law, is a continuing fact of day-to-day life (and death) for North America's native peoples. Yet there has been * and is * only the barest flicker of public concern about or even consciousness of, this reality. Absent any serious expression of public outrage, no one is punished and the process continues.

A salient reason for public acquiescence before the ongoing holocaust in Native North America has been a continuation of the popular legacy, often through more effective media. Since 1925, Hollywood has released more than 2,000 films, many of them rerun frequently on television, portraying Indians as strange, perverted, ridiculous, and often dangerous things of the past. Moreover, we are habitually presented to mass audiences one-dimensionally, devoid of recognizable human motivations and emotions: Indians thus serve as props, little more. We have thus been thoroughly and systematically dehumanized.

Nor is this the extent of it. Everywhere we are used as logos, as mascots, as jokes: "Big Chief" writing tablets, "Red Man" chewing tobacco, "Winnebago," campers., "Navajo" and "Cherokee" and "Pontiac" and "Cadillac" pickups and automobiles. There are the Cleveland "Indians," the Kansas City "Chiefs," the Atlanta "Braves" and the Washington "Redskins" professional sports teams * not to mention those in thousands of colleges, high schools, and elementary schools across the country each with their own degrading caricatures and parodies of Indians and or things Indian. Pop fiction continues in the same vein including an unending stream of New Age manuals purporting to expose the inner works of indigenous spirituality in everything from pseudo-philosophical to do-it-yourself styles. Blond yuppies from Beverly Hills amble about the country claiming to be reincarnated 17th century Cheyenne Ushamans ready to perform previously secret ceremonies.

In effect, a concerted, sustained, and in some ways accelerating effort has gone into making Indians unreal. It is thus of obvious importance that the American public begin to think about the implications of such things the next time they witness a gaggle of face-painted and war-bonneted buffoons doing the "Tomahawk Chop" at a baseball or football game. It is necessary that they think about the implications of the grade-school teacher adorning their child in turkey feathers to commemorate Thanksgiving. Think about the significance of John Wayne or Charleston Heston killing a dozen "savages" with a single bullet the next time a western comes on TV. Think about why Land-o-Lakes finds it appropriate to market its butter with the stereotyped image of an "Indian princess" on the wrapper. Think about what it means when non-lndian academics profess * as they often do * to "know more about Indians than Indians do themselves." Think about the significance of charlatans like Carlos Castaneda and Jamake Highwater and Mary Summer Rain and Lynn Andrews churning out "Indian" bestsellers one after the other,while Indians typically can't get into print.

Think about the real situation of American Indians. Think about Julius Streicher. Remember Justice Jackson's admonition. Understand that the treatment of Indians in American popular culture is not "cute'' or "amusing," or just "good, clean fun."

Know that it causes real pain and real suffering to real people. Know that it threatens our very survival. And know that this is just as much a crime against humanity as anything the Nazis ever did. It is likely the indigenous people of the United States will never demand that those guilty of such criminal activity be punished for their deeds. But the least we have to expect - indeed to demand*is that such practices finally be brought to a halt.

[vailpass]

Honestly, most of us don't care. We would much rather you kept the Fort Laramie Treaty and just left us alone. The SCOTUS sided with Indians a few decades ago but it didn't mean much. The US decided to make us a "national area of sacrifice" (Richard Nixon coined the term) instead.

Keep the treaty and UND would still be on US soil and folks could name it anything they wanted.

The only Indian name most of us really don't like btw, resides with an NFL team in that liberal mecca, Washington DC.

The Washington Smallpox Blankets? I can see where that wouldn't be popular with you guys but you gotta' lighten up, all that was a long time ago.

[Bwana]

Good

[SPchief]

And wildcats can sue, since every man is one, right?

heh

[frankotank]

Kinda long, so most probably won't want to read, but Churchill (yeah, he's a target for conservative venom) offers a clear view of A.I.M.'s position. Off to D.C. we go. . .



I stopped reading after the 'N' word suggestion. I saw where he was going. I think Savages and Red Skins could be seen as offensive to native Americans...I can see that. but fightin Illini and Florida Seminoles?? give me a break. how the hell is KC Chiefs possibly offensive. cry me a river.

[Saulbadguy]

And wildcats can sue, since every man is one, right?

Lawsuits have been filed.

[bevischief]

The state passed a law making it illegal for them to change their name. The Indian tribes are mixed on the name change but they are getting close for enough names on the petition to a vote only about 1500 away from making it.

[Lex Luthor]

The thing is, these Indian names aren't ethnic slurs. An Indian taking offense to a team named the Chiefs , Braves, Seminoles or Fighting Illini makes about as much sense as a white man taking offense to a team named the Cowboys, 49ers, Buccaneers, Texans, Yankees, Pirates, or Rangers.

If the term Redskins was originally an ethnic slur, I suppose that might be different. But the vast majority of these names are completely innocent and it's dumbassery to take offense to them. Some people just have to have a cause to fill their empty lives.

[Saulbadguy]

The thing is, these Indian names aren't ethnic slurs. An Indian taking offense to a team named the Chiefs , Braves, Seminoles or Fighting Illini makes about as much sense as a white man taking offense to a team named the Cowboys, 49ers, Buccaneers, Texans, Yankees, Pirates, or Rangers.

If the term Redskins was originally an ethnic slur, I suppose that might be different. But the vast majority of these names are completely innocent and it's dumbassery to take offense to them. Some people just have to have a cause to fill their empty lives.

Not true. The white man has been on top of society for years now. The native americans have suffered a tragic plight. Not that I care, but the logic is faulty.

[bevischief]

The Indians that are taking offense are college age kids.

[ReynardMuldrake]

Let's see. Who's been left out Teams like the Kansas City "Kikes," Hanover "Honkies," San Leandro "Shylock," Daytona "Dagos," and Pittsburg "Polacks" will fill a certain social void among white folk. Have a religious belief? Let's all go for the gusto and gear up the Milwaukee "Mackeral Snappers" and Hollywood "Holy Rollers." The Fighting Irish of Notre Dame can be rechristened the "Drunken Irish" or "Papist Pigs." Issues of gender and sexual preference can be addressed through creation of teams like the St. Louis "Sluts," Boston "Bimbos," Detroit "Dykes," and the Fresno "pillowbiters." How about the Gainsville "Gimps" and the richmond "Retards," so the physically and mentally impaired won't be excluded from our fun and games?


LMAO the Fresno Pillowbiters.

[RealSNR]

Honestly, most of us don't care. We would much rather you kept the Fort Laramie Treaty and just left us alone. The SCOTUS sided with Indians a few decades ago but it didn't mean much. The US decided to make us a "national area of sacrifice" (Richard Nixon coined the term) instead.

Keep the treaty and UND would still be on US soil and folks could name it anything they wanted.

The only Indian name most of us really don't like btw, resides with an NFL team in that liberal mecca, Washington DC.The University of North Dakota is in Grand Forks. It's not in (on?) a reservation.

[RealSNR]

I'm from this area, and I can say that UND would probably change the team name gladly. The only thing at issue is money.

And that includes the Ralph Engelstad Arena, where the Sioux play hockey. It's not owned by the university, it's owned by the Engelstad estate. Midway during construction, Ralph Engelstad (this was before he died, obviously) threatened to withdraw his funding if UND's Fighting Sioux sports teams were renamed in deference to political pressures. In an effort to make the prospect of removal a prohibitively costly measure, the Fighting Sioux logo was strategically placed in thousands of instances in the arena, including a large granite logo in the main concourse.

The (presumed) loss of this building as well as the cost of re-making the logo and nickname comes at a very, very, high price to the school. The NCAA clearly wants it gone, but it would be absolutely irresponsible of them to not assist the school financially with getting the entire campus re-worked.

[RealSNR]

Last thing. The NCAA says Chief Illini and whatever Seminole mascot can stay because it's been approved by the tribes. In North Dakota's case, you have mixed support, which apparently isn't good enough.

The issue at hand seems to be is it moral for a university to use a human as its mascot. If that's the case, tribe support shouldn't matter. Illini, Sioux, all of them must go. Once, again, money is clogging up the works in determining what's the right course of action and what isn't. But it's silly to expect anything less from an organization like the NCAA.

[ChiefGator]

How come the NCAA doesn't find the "Fighting Irish" offensive?

Exactly what I was going to say.. I find it slightly offensive.

[Dartgod]

I'm from this area, and I can say that UND would probably change the team name gladly. The only thing at issue is money.

And that includes the Ralph Engelstad Arena, where the Sioux play hockey. It's not owned by the university, it's owned by the Engelstad estate. Midway during construction, Ralph Engelstad (this was before he died, obviously) threatened to withdraw his funding if UND's Fighting Sioux sports teams were renamed in deference to political pressures. In an effort to make the prospect of removal a prohibitively costly measure, the Fighting Sioux logo was strategically placed in thousands of instances in the arena, including a large granite logo in the main concourse.

The (presumed) loss of this building as well as the cost of re-making the logo and nickname comes at a very, very, high price to the school. The NCAA clearly wants it gone, but it would be absolutely irresponsible of them to not assist the school financially with getting the entire campus re-worked.

I thought this name sounded familiar and sure enough, he's the guy who once owned the Imperial Palace in Vegas and once had a huge collection of Nazi memorabilia, including some cars in the famous car museum at the IP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Engelstad

[RealSNR]

I thought this name sounded familiar and sure enough, he's the guy who once owned the Imperial Palace in Vegas and once had a huge collection of Nazi memorabilia, including some cars in the famous car museum at the IP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_EngelstadYep. UND graduate. Played on the hockey team. His money is the reason why you see a college hockey team playing in a $100 million arena with granite floors in the main atrium

[Messier]

I've always thought Redskins was inappropriate.

[LiveSteam]

Its fucking stupid.
In Omaha they made Millard south change they're names from Chiefs to Patriots.Yet they want to send your kids on a filed trip to Grenville M. Dodge's house, to pay Homage to one of the biggest mass murderer's of the plains Indian's.

[Simplicity]

Well in that case... I take "Patriots" offensive... Where can I file my lawsuit!?!?!?!?!?

[mikey23545]

The thing is, these Indian names aren't ethnic slurs. An Indian taking offense to a team named the Chiefs , Braves, Seminoles or Fighting Illini makes about as much sense as a white man taking offense to a team named the Cowboys, 49ers, Buccaneers, Texans, Yankees, Pirates, or Rangers.

If the term Redskins was originally an ethnic slur, I suppose that might be different. But the vast majority of these names are completely innocent and it's dumbassery to take offense to them. Some people just have to have a cause to fill their empty lives.

Not true. The white man has been on top of society for years now. The native americans have suffered a tragic plight. Not that I care, but the logic is faulty.


:spock:

What the fuck does this even mean?

I could see you being offended if we were talking about a team called the Central State Overly-Sensitive Drooling Retards. It would obviously be hitting too close to home for you.

But the Fighting Sioux?

Quite frankly, that sounds like a proud, powerful tribe of Indians that kicked Caucasian ass and took names...

[LiveSteam]

:spock:



Quite frankly, that sounds like a proud, powerful tribe of Indians that kicked Caucasian ass and took names...

I like this part. :clap:

[GloryDayz]

Good.. I'm happy to see somebody make a stand! This PC stuff blows!!

[Iowanian]

Awesome. Good for them.

I'm not a fan, but I might buy a T shirt as a show of solidarity.

I'm the 99% of people who don't find that offensive.

[WhiteWhale]

I dunno about 'The Fighting Sioux". What is the opinion of actual Sioux descendants? It's not really the same as 'indians' or 'braves', since it's a specific tribe.

According to the article the local Sioux tribes don't like it.

Most schools who are named after specific tribes actually have the blessing of the tribes they use as mascots.

The name itself isn't offensive at all. It's not like 'Sioux' is a pejorative term or something.

[Deberg_1990]

I've always thought Redskins was inappropriate.

Same here. Even more inappropriate that it represents our nations capitol.

[WhiteWhale]

Same here. Even more offensive that it represents our nations capitol.

Well...

Redskin IS a pejorative term. I mean you can't really spin that any other way.

I'm not offended, being white, but it is what it is... a disparaging term used for a specific ethnic group. Kinda stunning it's so widely used.

[RealSNR]

By the way, here's just one elaborate instance of the way the logo has decorated the Ralph Engelstad Arena.

http://sports-venue.info/sitebuilder/images/Ralph_5-240x240.jpg

That's the logo right there. On the edge of every row of seats. In the entire arena. How much money do you think it would take to have all of those removed? There are a couple hundred of them. Probably looking at 5 figures, right?

Great, now how about the giant granite sioux logo on the floor of the main atrium? How about on the walls? How about in the other athletic arenas?

We're talking tens of millions of dollars just to remove the logos, FFS.

[Saulbadguy]

Awesome. Good for them.

I'm not a fan, but I might buy a T shirt as a show of solidarity.

I'm the 99% of people who don't find that offensive.

I have a UND Sioux hockey jersey. I recommend you buy one of those.

[HonestChieffan]

Someone with balls. Good on the fighting sioux

[Braincase]

If thr Sioux Nation is fine with it, by all means, let NDSU keep their mascot. They're winners up there in a number of different spots and represent their mascot well.

[mnchiefsguy]

I have a UND Sioux hockey jersey. I recommend you buy one of those.

Those jerseys look awesome. I always rooted against UND when we lived in MN, since they have a huge hockey rivalry with the golden gophers. But the UND hockey jersey is one of the sharpest looking in all of sports.

[Coach]

If NDSU has to remove their mascot due to NCAA threat, then the NCAA has to do the same to Florida State as well.

[Brock]

If NDSU has to remove their mascot due to NCAA threat, then the NCAA has to do the same to Florida State as well.

The Sioux tribe hasn't given permission for them to use the name. The Seminoles have.

They got 3 years to broker some kind of an agreement, but failed to do so.

[Bearcat]

I have a UND Sioux hockey jersey. I recommend you buy one of those.

Ben Blood?

That would be an awesome jersey.

[ClevelandBronco]

Skin-based terminology update:

Asians may be called yellow only if they show cowardice.
American Indians may be called red only if they are Bolshevik (which most of them probably are anyway).
African Americans may still be called black in most cases.
Latinos and many other third worlders may be called brown unless my wife in within earshot. Seriously. She'll cut your ass.

[Braincase]

The Sioux tribe hasn't given permission for them to use the name. The Seminoles have.

They got 3 years to broker some kind of an agreement, but failed to do so.

This (http://plainsdaily.com/entry/spirit-lake-sioux-tribe-announces-lawsuit-against-ncaa-alleging-civil-rights-violations-and-copyright-infringement/) might contradict that...

FORT TOTTEN, ND – Speaking at the tribal headquarters of the Spirit Lake Sioux Nation, attorney Reed Soderstrom announced a lawsuit against the NCAA alleging copyright infringement and civil rights violations. The Sioux tribe supports the University of North Dakota’s “Fighting Sioux” nickname and logo, but the NCAA has deemed them to be “hostile and abusive.”


“Today, the Spirit Lake Tribe of Indians, by and through its Committee of Understanding and Respect, and Archie Fool Bear, individually, and as Representative of more than 1004 Petitioners of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe, filed a lawsuit against the National Collegiate Athletic Association in direct response to their attempt to take away and prevent the North Dakota Sioux Indians from giving their name forever to the University of North Dakota,” said Soderstrom in prepared remarks.


Soderstrom alleges that the NCAA has violated “the religious and first amendment rights of the Dakota Sioux tribes.” He also alleged a double standard in the application of the NCAA’s policy against the use of Native American names and imagery.


“Though the NCAA has decided ‘Fighting Sioux’ is derogatory, the NCAA supports the University of Illinois’ use of the name ‘Fighting Illini,’ and the use by Florida State University of the name ‘Seminoles’ along with the Seminole mascot – someone dressed in Native American attire who rides into the FSU stadium on a horse and throws a flaming spear before every home football game,” said Soderstrom. “The NCAA claims these are not derogatory depictions because the Illini people and the Seminole people approve of the use of the name and mascot. Inexplicably, the NCAA fails to accept the tribal vote and the sacred religious ceremony as endorsements of the name ‘Fighting Sioux’ by the North Dakota Sioux Nation.”


The lawsuit claims that the Sioux tribe were “indispensable parties” to a lawsuit filed by the State of North Dakota against the NCAA in 2007, the settlement of which required the state to get permission from the Spirit Lake and Standing Rock Sioux tribes, but were never included in negotiations of that settlement. It also alleges defamation, violations of the Indian Civil Rights Act, defamation and an unlawful restraint on trade.


The lawsuit asks that the NCAA’s policy be stricken and that the organization pay punitive damages in the amount of $10 million.
Earlier this year the North Dakota legislature passed a law ordering the University of North Dakota to keep the “Fighting Sioux” nickname despite NCAA sanctions. The bill was signed into law by Governor Jack Dalrymple, but after a meeting between state officials and NCAA leadership in Indiana Dalrymple and other state leaders feel the law should be repealed in an upcoming special session of the legislature.

[Saulbadguy]

If NDSU has to remove their mascot due to NCAA threat, then the NCAA has to do the same to Florida State as well.

The Bison? I see nothing wrong with Bison.

[Imon Yourside]

How many would be offended if they were called the Fighting Crackaz? I wouldn't be, they would be my 2nd favorite team. They could use any old pale skinned dude as their mascot and i'm sure no one would be offended.

[bevischief]

The Bison? I see nothing wrong with Bison.

Bison are in Fargo, Fighting Sioux in Bismark.

[rockymtnchief]

After this first came out, years ago, some Native American students got together an intramural basketball team and called themselves the "Fighting Norwegians".

The Norwegians didn't protest.

[RealSNR]

This is the University of North Dakota (UND). NOT North Dakota State University (NDSU).

NDSU is in Fargo. They are the Bison. They're the ones that won the Division IAA football championship

UND is in Grand Forks. They're the Fighting Sioux, and are famous for the hockey team.

Rape.

[Dartgod]

Bison are in Fargo, Fighting Sioux in Bismark.

No, UND is in Grand Forks.

[oldandslow]

In the interest of full disclosure...I am an enrolled full blood Choctaw married to an enrolled full blood Lakota woman who grew up on Pine Ridge. I grew up in OK. We have three biological children who are enrolled Lakota and have 3 adopted children who are Yankton Sioux. We have lived in SD for most of our adult lives. I recieved a Ph.D. (ecological sciences & biology) from the university of OK and am getting ready to retire from the university in a couple of years. We will probably move to the Black Hills after that.

I said all of that to say this. Most Indians don't even think about this. It is not the center of our lives. When brought up most would say it would be better if the teams would find other mascots, but it is not worth going to war over. There is one team's mascot that every Indian I know finds offensive. And that is the Redskins. It should be removed - period.

However, most of us realize that to waste political capital on this is kind of silly. There are some real issues out there where I, and most other Indians, would be the directly opposed to most of the folks on this board - uranium mining in the Black Hills, for example.

Indians have been dealt a tough hand. But most of us quit playing the victim game a long time ago. I know the stereotype of the drunken, welfare Indian is pretty rampant. And we typically are a "clannish" and sometimes it's hard to get to know us. But we are as varied as whites or any other race. Some of us are millionaires. Some of us are poverty stricken. Some of us walk a traditional road, filled with same religion and practices as people who live 1000 years ago. Some of us cut our hair. Some of us don't.

The "fighting Sioux" does push forward another stereotype. The "Sioux" are made up of seven "council fires" or tribal bands. Some of those bands fought whites ferociously for years (the Lakota being one of them). The Yankton, on the other hand, NEVER fought the whites. Not once. Yet all of the tribes are labeled as warrior-like and that really is not true.

Anyway, its important to somebody in ND to not be politically correct and not give in to the wishes of the Sioux who live there. That's fine. But I do think it is important to understand why folks grow tired of stereotyping.

[blaise]

When I hear a name the the "Fighting ____" I don't generally think they're saying the race, or group is inherently warrior-like or anything. I generally look at it as a sports team thing. Like the "Running Rebels" or something. As in a competitive, on the field thing. It doesn't make me think the Sioux were always fighting.
Maybe that's just me though.