Restating the obvious, Dorsey learned from Ted Thompson

[HemiEd]

So, you believe there is a no drafting a QB mandate handed down from Hunt?

Yes, I have said it many times. The pattern is long and consistent no matter what they say to the fans.

Carl never spent a first round pick on a QB in his 20 years. Both Pioli and Dorsey made the move to trade picks for one before they knew where the office mens room was located.

In the 54 years this team has been in existence, they have never successfully drafted and developed a QB. They haven't even really tried in 30.

edit, that is not really fair to Carl, as he did spend two second round picks early in his tenure trying to find one, but never a first.

[TripleThreat]

Brady and Peyton are two QBs who can carry a bad team. And they have. Brady made the AFC championship game with an average defense and Reche Caldwell / Jabar Gaffney as his #1 and #2 receivers. Peyton usually carried an atrocious defense and offensive line in Indy.

But in every generation, there are about 4 or 5. Not worth the gamble to assume you'll bring in a QB who can carry a team. In most cases, you have a Russell Wilson, Flacco, and Eli who are very good QBs but are better built for teams that have a lot of talent around them.


Im not disagreeing that there haven't been times that these quarterbacks haven't had amazing talent, but to say they haven't had GREAT help is a understatement.

U mentioned Brady made the afc champions game with average defense etc and WR's, but with brady I mentioned the SYSTEM he is in, not the talent around him aka. why I referenced Cassel as 11-6 in that system but then came here and suked a$$...

Peyton also has had BOTH Marvin Harrison/Reggie Wayne as WR's and then had great wideouts after Marvin retired..

Brady had Randy Moss in his prime along with other top notch receivers like Welker, who most claim Welker is the Broncos workhorse...

So Both of these quarterbacks have had tremendous help in there supporting casts, wether it be talent or coaching staff, but Tom bradys coaching staff is already booked for the Hall of fame and 10x over.

[Messier]

Yes, I have said it many times. The pattern is long and consistent no matter what they say to the fans.

Carl never spent a first round pick on a QB in his 20 years. Both Pioli and Dorsey made the move to trade picks for one before they knew where the office mens room was located.

In the 54 years this team has been in existence, they have never successfully drafted and developed a QB. They haven't even really tried in 30.

Why would that be the Hunt family policy? Doesn't seem to make sense.

[mcaj22]

And now you understand why I think it's silly to throw money at 1 defensive player and think that magically fixes everything.

that's a double edge sword

just like thinking 1 defensive player wont fix everything is no different than the other side of the coin that thinks a Sanders Commings/Hussain Abdullah is going to fix everything.

And the Ted Thompson Way in 2014, he signed 1 notable defensive player with the idea of "magically" fixing his defense next season so far. (actually two if you count keeping their in house FA to a contract as well)

So this idea that Ted Thompson doesn't spend is a farce. John Dorsey doesn't spend, so far that's true. I'd rather 1 quality FA with the money than 5 JAGs. Like Dorsey has done so far.

[chiefzilla1501]

Im not disagreeing that there haven't been times that these quarterbacks haven't had amazing talent, but to say they haven't had GREAT help is a understatement.

U mentioned Brady made the afc champions game with average defense etc and WR's, but with brady I mentioned the SYSTEM he is in, not the talent around him aka. why I referenced Cassel as 11-6 in that system but then came here and suked a$$...

Peyton also has had BOTH Marvin Harrison/Reggie Wayne as WR's and then had great wideouts after Marvin retired..

Brady had Randy Moss in his prime along with other top notch receivers like Welker, who most claim Welker is the Broncos workhorse...

So Both of these quarterbacks have had tremendous help in there supporting casts, wether it be talent or coaching staff, but Tom bradys coaching staff is already booked for the Hall of fame and 10x over.

I disagree. Wayne has been a steady presence, but Peyton has almost never had a good running game and he was largely throwing to very average receivers like Gonzalez or Collie. Not to mention bad defenses he had to carry.

The Cassel example isn't a good one. Cassel went 11-6, but keep in mind that Brady took that same team to a perfect season. Cassel won games that year because of insane talent, more than system. While Brady has had some years throwing to insane talent, he has had a ton of years where he's carried receivers like Amendola or Reche Caldwell to deep playoff runs. Look what he did last year, even missing Welker and two elite tight ends.

Sure, they have some talent around them. But their defenses haven't been good lately, and they have just as much success throwing to average talent as they have had throwing to elite talent.

[TripleThreat]

I disagree. Wayne has been a steady presence, but Peyton has almost never had a good running game and he was largely throwing to very average receivers like Gonzalez or Collie. Not to mention bad defenses he had to carry.

The Cassel example isn't a good one. Cassel went 11-6, but keep in mind that Brady took that same team to a perfect season. Cassel won games that year because of insane talent, more than system. While Brady has had some years throwing to insane talent, he has had a ton of years where he's carried receivers like Amendola or Reche Caldwell to deep playoff runs. Look what he did last year, even missing Welker and two elite tight ends.

Sure, they have some talent around them. But their defenses haven't been good lately, and they have just as much success throwing to average talent as they have had throwing to elite talent.

Im not talking about Bradys insane talent around him tho, im talking about his coaching staff.. I think the reason they did insanely well this last year was because of the system as well as the QB.. I think Brady is the best QB of all time and can do it without any help at all, but to say he has no help around him and does it all himself is a vast understatement and then you are pretty much saying Bill Bellicheck and company are just average coaches if Tom does it all himself.

I think with Peyton you are forgetting Dallas Clark?? When peyton was throwing to Gonzalez everyone in fantasy worlds were thinking he was the next Top notch WR on the colts and then he became injury prone. Collie/Gonzalez/Wayne/Clark/Addai.. I like that surrounding talent cast imo.. Not adding in the years of Marvin Harrison..

Our topic of the quick discussion was alex smith needing help around him to succeed, and my quick points of comparison were the above.... These 2 great QB's have always had help around them wether it be the coaching staff being flawless (Patriots) or the colts/broncos giving peyton all the talent they could... Even Elway this year said he wanted to get Peyton more weapons to throw to.. You gotta give your QB pieces to play with, We cant just give Alex 6th round players and say do magic, that 6throunder probably cant beat the opposing DB off the ball...

[chiefzilla1501]

that's a double edge sword

just like thinking 1 defensive player wont fix everything is no different than the other side of the coin that thinks a Sanders Commings/Hussain Abdullah is going to fix everything.
I don't think I've heard anyone say that. In fact, I don't think anyone who likes this 2014 approach thinks we're going to be better.

And the Ted Thompson Way in 2014, he signed 1 notable defensive player with the idea of "magically" fixing his defense next season so far. (actually two if you count keeping their in house FA to a contract as well)

So this idea that Ted Thompson doesn't spend is a farce. John Dorsey doesn't spend, so far that's true. I'd rather 1 quality FA with the money than 5 JAGs. Like Dorsey has done so far.
You're pointing to an exception, not the rule. Schneider in Seattle and Thompson in Green Bay have had pockets of free agent activity. But they are far less active than most teams are and most of their starting lineups were built through the draft. And a huge part of that is that these teams are not shy about letting unproven players step in and play. And they aren't afraid to have extremely quiet offseasons like the Chiefs have in 2014. In fact, a lot of great teams seem to be built that way. A few quiet offseasons, big free agent splurt, then quiet again. The Patriots are an excellent example of that.

As I've said before, Dorsey's strategy will work, just as Schneider's did in Seattle, IF the team drafts well. And I get people who are skeptical about that "if" and have every reason to. But the philosophy itself is sound.

[Rausch]

Yes, I have said it many times. The pattern is long and consistent no matter what they say to the fans.

Carl never spent a first round pick on a QB in his 20 years. Both Pioli and Dorsey made the move to trade picks for one before they knew where the office mens room was located.

In the 54 years this team has been in existence, they have never successfully drafted and developed a QB. They haven't even really tried in 30.

edit, that is not really fair to Carl, as he did spend two second round picks early in his tenure trying to find one, but never a first.

The problem is there's no such thing as Chiefs football.

Chiefs football is hiring a coach off a SB team and trying to copy that model of success.

We did it with Marty trying to copy the 49'ers. And we traded for their QB's.
We did it with DV and the Rams and traded for one of their QB's.
We did it with Pioli and traded for one of the Pats QB's.

We don't come up with our own strategies - we try to copy everyone else's...

[chiefzilla1501]

Im not talking about Bradys insane talent around him tho, im talking about his coaching staff.. I think the reason they did insanely well this last year was because of the system as well as the QB.. I think Brady is the best QB of all time and can do it without any help at all, but to say he has no help around him and does it all himself is a vast understatement and then you are pretty much saying Bill Bellicheck and company are just average coaches if Tom does it all himself.

I think with Peyton you are forgetting Dallas Clark?? When peyton was throwing to Gonzalez everyone in fantasy worlds were thinking he was the next Top notch WR on the colts and then he became injury prone. Collie/Gonzalez/Wayne/Clark/Addai.. I like that surrounding talent cast imo.. Not adding in the years of Marvin Harrison..

Our topic of the quick discussion was alex smith needing help around him to succeed, and my quick points of comparison were the above.... These 2 great QB's have always had help around them wether it be the coaching staff being flawless (Patriots) or the colts/broncos giving peyton all the talent they could... Even Elway this year said he wanted to get Peyton more weapons to throw to.. You gotta give your QB pieces to play with, We cant just give Alex 6th round players and say do magic, that 6throunder probably cant beat the opposing DB off the ball...

Sorry, I'm going to completely agree to disagree.

I think you are grossly overestimating the talent Brady and Peyton have had around them. And Peyton has now done it for two systems, not just one. That's not discrediting Bellichick as a coach. You're absolutely right. He's an excellent coach. But they're winning even with lousy talent. Without Hernandez and Gronk last year, the Patriots should have been god awful. The year they had Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney, they should have been 7-9 at best. Brady and Peyton, like a handful of other elite HOF QBs, can carry an average team in ways guys like Alex Smith or Flacco or Eli can't. So I agree with you that we have to surround Alex Smith with talent. But if you're going to use an example, use Eli or Flacco or Big Ben, not elite QBs like Brady or Peyton. Last year, Smith led a playoff bubble team. You put Brady on that same team, and they are a Super Bowl favorite.

[TripleThreat]

Sorry, I'm going to completely agree to disagree.

I think you are grossly overestimating the talent Brady and Peyton have had around them. And Peyton has now done it for two systems, not just one. That's not discrediting Bellichick as a coach. You're absolutely right. He's an excellent coach. But they're winning even with lousy talent. Without Hernandez and Gronk last year, the Patriots should have been god awful. The year they had Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney, they should have been 7-9 at best. Brady and Peyton, like a handful of other elite HOF QBs, can carry an average team in ways guys like Alex Smith or Flacco or Eli can't. So I agree with you that we have to surround Alex Smith with talent. But if you're going to use an example, use Eli or Flacco or Big Ben, not elite QBs like Brady or Peyton. Last year, Smith led a playoff bubble team. You put Brady on that same team, and they are a Super Bowl favorite.

I feel though like any team Brady is on its a automatic superbowl favorite lol

[Messier]

The problem is there's no such thing as Chiefs football.

Chiefs football is hiring a coach off a SB team and trying to copy that model of success.

We did it with Marty trying to copy the 49'ers. And we traded for their QB's.
We did it with DV and the Rams and traded for one of their QB's.
We did it with Pioli and traded for one of the Pats QB's.

We don't come up with our own strategies - we try to copy everyone else's...

What is Reid trying to copy?

Listen, the NFL is incestuous, if you hire a coach that's been around, at all, they're going to try and take what worked before and transfer it to their new team. But you are right, very recently we saw Pioli attempt to recreate Patriot way in KC, and without Brady and Bilichick. It was awful and failed. Of you hire someone who has had some success, which almost every time will be the case, they'll try what worked for them, or what they've seen work.

[mcaj22]

I don't think I've heard anyone say that. In fact, I don't think anyone who likes this 2014 approach thinks we're going to be better.


You're pointing to an exception, not the rule. Schneider in Seattle and Thompson in Green Bay have had pockets of free agent activity. But they are far less active than most teams are and most of their starting lineups were built through the draft. And a huge part of that is that these teams are not shy about letting unproven players step in and play. And they aren't afraid to have extremely quiet offseasons like the Chiefs have in 2014. In fact, a lot of great teams seem to be built that way. A few quiet offseasons, big free agent splurt, then quiet again. The Patriots are an excellent example of that.

As I've said before, Dorsey's strategy will work, just as Schneider's did in Seattle, IF the team drafts well. And I get people who are skeptical about that "if" and have every reason to. But the philosophy itself is sound.

The Patriots have been signing veteran FAs for the last 5 to 10 ****ing years? Spurts? The Patriots bring in every veteran with a name they can.

you keep comparing Dorsey to the guy in Seattle as your blueprint and Dorsey is so far from that dude I don't know you why you think he's even close to that model. Schneider traded for Marshawn Lynch, splashed on Percy Harvin, trades in the draft, signs notable veteran FAs to cheap deals then signs them to long term deals to keep them.

Dorsey has done NONE of that so far. What has been Dorsey's biggest FA move? A trade for a FB? Two 2nds for a 29 year old QB? 12 million to a 29 year old WR? How is this stuff like Schneider in Seattle, it's not. To even think he's similar or that we are some Seattle in the making is a disrespect to Seattle and pure homerism as a Chiefs fan in denial.

[TripleThreat]

The Patriots have been signing veteran FAs for the last 5 to 10 ****ing years? Spurts? The Patriots bring in every veteran with a name they can.

you keep comparing Dorsey to the guy in Seattle as your blueprint and Dorsey is so far from that dude I don't know you why you think he's even close to that model. Schneider traded for Marshawn Lynch, splashed on Percy Harvin, trades in the draft, signs notable veteran FAs to cheap deals then signs them to long term deals to keep them.

Dorsey has done NONE of that so far. What has been Dorsey's biggest FA move? A trade for a FB? Two 2nds for a 29 year old QB? 12 million to a 29 year old WR? How is this stuff like Schneider in Seattle, it's not. To even think he's similar or that we are some Seattle in the making is a disrespect to Seattle and pure homerism as a Chiefs fan in denial.

We definitely haven't made any moves like Seattle or the Broncos ... Its dumb too, itd be sick to land Jared Allen, Erick Decker and Demarcus ware in one season.. but I don't know sht about cap space so who knows.

[chiefzilla1501]

The Patriots have been signing veteran FAs for the last 5 to 10 ****ing years? Spurts? The Patriots bring in every veteran with a name they can.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1189875-new-england-patriots-4-best-worst-moves-of-the-2012-offseason/page/5
Brandon Lloyd was their big offseason signing in 2012

http://walterfootball.com/offseason2013ne.php
Tommie Kelly, Amendola, and Blount were their big signings in 2013

Wow, sure looks like the Pats are free agent binge drinkers.

you keep comparing Dorsey to the guy in Seattle as your blueprint and Dorsey is so far from that dude I don't know you why you think he's even close to that model. Schneider traded for Marshawn Lynch, splashed on Percy Harvin, trades in the draft, signs notable veteran FAs to cheap deals then signs them to long term deals to keep them.
Seahawks 2012 offseason:
Key Additions:
http://nfl.si.com/2012/07/09/offseason-breakdown-seattle-seahawks/
QB Matt Flynn, DE/OLB Bruce Irvin, DT Jason Jones, G Deuce Lutui, G/T Frank Omiyale, LB Barrett Ruud, LB Bobby Wagner, TE Kellen Winslow, QB Russell Wilson

75% of their starting lineup was built through the draft, most over the last 4 years. The Seahawks binged in year 1 (including a trade for a QB), went quiet in year 2, then binged again in year 3. They made about a few outstanding free agency moves like Lynch, Avril, Bennett, and Harvin. The rest has been about the draft.

Dorsey has done NONE of that so far. What has been Dorsey's biggest FA move? A trade for a FB? Two 2nds for a 29 year old QB? 12 million to a 29 year old WR? How is this stuff like Schneider in Seattle, it's not. To even think he's similar or that we are some Seattle in the making is a disrespect to Seattle and pure homerism as a Chiefs fan in denial.
I compare the two approaches because they both come from the Ted Thompson school. I've said a million times that for this approach to work, Dorsey has to be a shitload better in the draft. I have never said it's going to work. I've said it could work, if he does better and Schneider is a classic example of that. As of right now, it's not like the two philosophies have been that much different. Schneider got a lot more out of the 2010 draft than Dorsey did in 2013, but there's still time for Dorsey's 2nd to 7th round picks to pan out. Schneider, like Dorsey, traded way too much for a QB in year 1 and drafted a Left Tackle with a very high first round pick. Schneider, like Dorsey, was extremely quiet in year 2. Dorsey, like Schneider, has a great opportunity to plug in some free agent caps in 2015.

[Coochie liquor]

Alex Smith failed to throw a touchdown in 6 games in 2013 (almost 38% of the games!); the Chiefs record in these games was 5 and 1.

Alex Smith threw for less than 200 yards in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 4 and 1.

The Chiefs defense allowed 23 or more points in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 1 and 4.

How does anybody credit Alex Smith with the Chiefs win/loss record in 2013, outside of not turning the ball over?


The cost for Smith, by the way, is not just the two 2nd round picks- you need to factor in the opportunity cost of not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2013; not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2014; and, if Smith is given an extension, likely not spending a high draft pick on a QB until 2016 or 2017. Congratulations, Chiefs fans- all of your QBOTF hopes will now rest on low round picks and undrafted free-agent QBs.

The whole concept of trading for another team's backup QB is a disaster and I can't believe that Chiefs fans aren't universally outraged. Smith in particular is a disaster (23 touchdowns in a "career" year and 0 touchdown passes in 38% of the games). And the coming contract extension is yet another disaster. Chiefs fans had better hope that Dorsey either puts together an all-time defense or pulls another Aaron Rogers out of his ass, because Smith will never be a franchise QB.

Not sure if you know this BUT..... We have one of the best rb in the league. When you can run the ball effectively you don't have to throw tons of yards or tds. But you DO have to have a qb who wont turn the ball over often and makes good decisions when he does throw it. Alex Smith did that. I guarantee if you put Geno, or whoever you thought we should draft at qb last year, or any of the other garbage FA qbs that were available last off season we wouldn't have made the playoffs let alone put up 40+ points to have our defense shredded.

[Marcellus]

The Patriots have been signing veteran FAs for the last 5 to 10 ****ing years? Spurts? The Patriots bring in every veteran with a name they can.

you keep comparing Dorsey to the guy in Seattle as your blueprint and Dorsey is so far from that dude I don't know you why you think he's even close to that model. Schneider traded for Marshawn Lynch, splashed on Percy Harvin, trades in the draft, signs notable veteran FAs to cheap deals then signs them to long term deals to keep them.

Dorsey has done NONE of that so far. What has been Dorsey's biggest FA move? A trade for a FB? Two 2nds for a 29 year old QB? 12 million to a 29 year old WR? How is this stuff like Schneider in Seattle, it's not. To even think he's similar or that we are some Seattle in the making is a disrespect to Seattle and pure homerism as a Chiefs fan in denial.

This post is simply wrong and completely ruins any opinion you have on this subject moving forward.

[Messier]

I've started discounting people that when talking about the Alex Smith trade, refer to him as just another backup QB, or suggest that he's old.

[Chief Roundup]

Alex Smith failed to throw a touchdown in 6 games in 2013 (almost 38% of the games!); the Chiefs record in these games was 5 and 1.

Alex Smith threw for less than 200 yards in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 4 and 1.

The Chiefs defense allowed 23 or more points in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 1 and 4.

How does anybody credit Alex Smith with the Chiefs win/loss record in 2013, outside of not turning the ball over?


The cost for Smith, by the way, is not just the two 2nd round picks- you need to factor in the opportunity cost of not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2013; not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2014; and, if Smith is given an extension, likely not spending a high draft pick on a QB until 2016 or 2017. Congratulations, Chiefs fans- all of your QBOTF hopes will now rest on low round picks and undrafted free-agent QBs.

The whole concept of trading for another team's backup QB is a disaster and I can't believe that Chiefs fans aren't universally outraged. Smith in particular is a disaster (23 touchdowns in a "career" year and 0 touchdown passes in 38% of the games). And the coming contract extension is yet another disaster. Chiefs fans had better hope that Dorsey either puts together an all-time defense or pulls another Aaron Rogers out of his ass, because Smith will never be a franchise QB.

Oh you mean those early games when the offense was still trying to be learned and implemented by the ENTIRE offense he didn't throw a touchdown.
Those games under 200 yards, weren't those the games that we had leads in and the D was doing what they were suppose to so we were running the ball and burning up clock instead of throwing the pigskin all over for no reason.
You are damn right we lost twice to the SB runner ups, Peytons donkos, while putting 28 points on the board in our house our Defense let them put up 35. Yeah we did lose to the Chargers but the offense scored 38 while that D of ours gave up 41. Our whole fucking team, including coaching staff, couldn't do a damn thing right against the Colts in the regular season, to the point it looked almost intentional.
Oh yeah we should have drafted Geno Smith last year. NOT what a dumbass thought that is. The Chiefs gained from not picking up Geno Smith.

Alex Smith is a franchise QB. He is the Chiefs franchise QB.

[htismaqe]

This place is fucking retarded anymore. :shake:

[Marcellus]

This place is ****ing retarded anymore. :shake:

Something we can agree on, though from different angles.

[htismaqe]

Something we can agree on, though from different angles.

I actually see it from both angles.

[Just Passin' By]

Boom goes the ****ing truth!

Truth? Well, maybe a very misleading version of it. It hides the truth as much as it shows any.

[BossChief]

Alex Smith failed to throw a touchdown in 6 games in 2013 (almost 38% of the games!); the Chiefs record in these games was 5 and 1.

Alex Smith threw for less than 200 yards in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 4 and 1.

The Chiefs defense allowed 23 or more points in 5 games in 2013; the Chiefs record in these games was 1 and 4.

How does anybody credit Alex Smith with the Chiefs win/loss record in 2013, outside of not turning the ball over?


The cost for Smith, by the way, is not just the two 2nd round picks- you need to factor in the opportunity cost of not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2013; not spending a high draft pick on a QB in 2014; and, if Smith is given an extension, likely not spending a high draft pick on a QB until 2016 or 2017. Congratulations, Chiefs fans- all of your QBOTF hopes will now rest on low round picks and undrafted free-agent QBs.

The whole concept of trading for another team's backup QB is a disaster and I can't believe that Chiefs fans aren't universally outraged. Smith in particular is a disaster (23 touchdowns in a "career" year and 0 touchdown passes in 38% of the games). And the coming contract extension is yet another disaster. Chiefs fans had better hope that Dorsey either puts together an all-time defense or pulls another Aaron Rogers out of his ass, because Smith will never be a franchise QB.

While I agree with the basic sentiment of this post, I do have some disagreements with it.

Of those 6 games when he didnt throw a TD pass, we were comfortably ahead in each game and 5 of those 6 games were before the bye. I'm not sure that stat is really something we should hang our hat on to take Alex Smith down a notch or two. Of the 5 games with less than 200 yards passing, we won the game by multiple scores in all but 1 of them (the only game we didnt win was the Indy game where Andy Reid admitted he held back a full game plan in anticipation of meeting Indy in the playoffs...where Alex had a monster game)

The last 2 paragraphs are 100% spot on.

Good post.

[Baby Lee]

When our team needed Alex Smith to play it safe, he played it safe and went 9-0. When our team need Alex Smith to produce prodigiously, he produced prodigiously and the D shit the bed anyways.

Last year was a team where, if injuries didn't hit key D positions, we were solid the whole way through.

I don't buy the 'epically bad O, then epically bad D' for our opponents. A couple key injuries and everything falls apart, regardless of who we play.

Parity means a lot of things, and one of them is that the difference between 'epically bad,' and 'epically awesome' is slimmer than ever.

Houston gets to Manning .01s faster than his replacement 5-7 times a game and things look much different.

Thus endeth the story of 2013.

[htismaqe]

Houston gets to Manning .01s faster than his replacement 5-7 times a game and things look much different.

Houston and Hali both played in game 1 against Manning. Neither of them got any real pressure.

Not saying having Houston and Hali healthy down the stretch wouldn't have made a difference. I'm just saying that it likely wouldn't have changed the results against Denver. Our problems with Denver start and end with our DBs.

[Messier]

The problem I have with the, unless we draft our QB, we're wasting our time people, is you're assuming an awful lot.

It's pretty amazing how many high draft pick QBs turn into, not busts, but almost something worse, just a guy. I think Bradford is just a guy, I think Dalton is just a guy, I think Stafford is becoming just a guy.

Let's say we didn't trade for Smith, and instead signed one of the scrapheap QBs and drafted one. Geno, Manuel, or Glennon. How would you really feel right now? First I don't think we win as many games with Fitzpatrick and or one of the rookies starting. And now two of the teams that drafted QBs are hedging their bets. Do you envy the QB situation of the Jets, Bills, or Bucks? I don't. So, would you draft another QB high this year?

I'm sorry, this plan of attack is not appealing to me at all. And I don't think fans of these teams look at the Chiefs and feel they're doing it better than they are. I'm not against taking a QB high at all, but I think the team better be right, because more times than not, there is no franchise QB in the draft.

[htismaqe]

The problem I have with the, unless we draft our QB, we're wasting our time people, is you're assuming an awful lot.

It's pretty amazing how many high draft pick QBs turn into, not busts, but almost something worse, just a guy. I think Bradford is just a guy, I think Dalton is just a guy, I think Stafford is becoming just a guy.

Let's say we didn't trade for Smith, and instead signed one of the scrapheap QBs and drafted one. Geno, Manuel, or Glennon. How would you really feel right now? First I don't think we win as many games with Fitzpatrick and or one of the rookies starting. And now two of the teams that drafted QBs are hedging their bets. Do you envy the QB situation of the Jets, Bills, or Bucks? I don't. So, would you draft another QB high this year?

I'm sorry, this plan of attack is not appealing to me at all. And I don't think fans of these teams look at the Chiefs and feel they're doing it better than they are. I'm not against taking a QB high at all, but I think the team better be right, because more times than not, there is no franchise QB in the draft.

The problem is that if you're not winning with a young QB on their first contract, probability says you're not winning a Super Bowl at all.

Once QBs hit their 2nd contracts and beyond, Super Bowl wins go way down.

That's not anything against Alex Smith, that's just reality. Winning a Super Bowl has become, in the salary cap era, literally the same as striking gold.

Ultimately, it becomes a choice for a team:

- do you want to be competitive, entertaining, and have a 5% chance of winning a Super Bowl?

or

- do you want to have a 15% chance of winning a Super Bowl but a 50% chance of being one of the worst teams in the league for a few years if your QB busts?

We both know which way is more financially rewarding for the team.

EDIT: And yes, those percentages are arbitrary and for illustrative purposes.

[HemiEd]

Why would that be the Hunt family policy? Doesn't seem to make sense.They are the common denominator, not really hard to comprehend.

Are you aware of the comment Carl Peterson made one time about how Lamar had to sign off on trading a first round pick? The team hasn't used a first round pick on a QB since they missed on the greatest QB draft ever of 83, by taking Todd Blackledge.
The timing of the trade for Cassel and Smith is another indicator to me.

The problem is there's no such thing as Chiefs football.

Chiefs football is hiring a coach off a SB team and trying to copy that model of success.

We did it with Marty trying to copy the 49'ers. And we traded for their QB's.
We did it with DV and the Rams and traded for one of their QB's.
We did it with Pioli and traded for one of the Pats QB's.

We don't come up with our own strategies - we try to copy everyone else's...Agreed, but one strategy has remained the same for over 30 years.

I imagine Lamar Hunt was rolling in his grave with laughter on the Jamarcus Russel bust for the Raiders. ROFL

When the Chiefs really sucked for almost two decades, they were trying to draft a QB. The stadium was never sold out and you could walk up on game day and buy great tickets.

When they started using recycled vets on a regular basis and achieving 10-6 records, Arrowhead rocked and the fans were happy.

[Just Passin' By]

The problem is that if you're not winning with a young QB on their first contract, probability says you're not winning a Super Bowl at all.

Once QBs hit their 2nd contracts and beyond, Super Bowl wins go way down.

That's not anything against Alex Smith, that's just reality. Winning a Super Bowl has become, in the salary cap era, literally the same as striking gold.

Ultimately, it becomes a choice for a team:

- do you want to be competitive, entertaining, and have a 5% chance of winning a Super Bowl?

or

- do you want to have a 15% chance of winning a Super Bowl but a 50% chance of being one of the worst teams in the league for a few years if your QB busts?

We both know which way is more financially rewarding for the team.

EDIT: And yes, those percentages are arbitrary and for illustrative purposes.

Brees, Rodgers, both Mannings and Roethlisberger show that there is no recent trend against 2nd contract (or later) QBs winning SBs. If anything, the opposite has been true of late. Also, Brady, while not actually winning a SB since his first deal, has been to 5 AFCCGs and 2 SBs in that time.

[Messier]

The problem is that if you're not winning with a young QB on their first contract, probability says you're not winning a Super Bowl at all.

Once QBs hit their 2nd contracts and beyond, Super Bowl wins go way down.

That's not anything against Alex Smith, that's just reality. Winning a Super Bowl has become, in the salary cap era, literally the same as striking gold.

Ultimately, it becomes a choice for a team:

- do you want to be competitive, entertaining, and have a 5% chance of winning a Super Bowl?

or

- do you want to have a 15% chance of winning a Super Bowl but a 50% chance of being one of the worst teams in the league for a few years if your QB busts?

We both know which way is more financially rewarding for the team.

EDIT: And yes, those percentages are arbitrary and for illustrative purposes.

In either case, the QB must have a good team around them. I think there's something to be said for having a QB that can at least win some games, and thats through making plays, and NOT making costly plays. I know some people think the attitude of, you have just make the playoffs to win the superbowl, and you have to win regular season games to make the playoffs, it like saying, this team is just satisfied making the playoffs! Which is ridiculous.

My bottom line is, I'd rather be where the Chiefs are QB wise, than any of the teams that drafted QBs high last year, and any team that will draft a QB high this year. I thought giving up 2 seconds last year was pretty steep, but I'm becoming more and more comfortable with it.

[Messier]

They are the common denominator, not really hard to comprehend.

Are you aware of the comment Carl Peterson made one time about how Lamar had to sign off on trading a first round pick? The team hasn't used a first round pick on a QB since they missed on the greatest QB draft ever of 83, by taking Todd Blackledge.
The timing of the trade for Cassel and Smith is another indicator to me.

Agreed, but one strategy has remained the same for over 30 years.

I imagine Lamar Hunt was rolling in his grave with laughter on the Jamarcus Russel bust for the Raiders. ROFL

When the Chiefs really sucked for almost two decades, they were trying to draft a QB. The stadium was never sold out and you could walk up on game day and buy great tickets.

When they started using recycled vets on a regular basis and achieving 10-6 records, Arrowhead rocked and the fans were happy.

What do you mean the timing of Cassel and Smith? They traded for them in weak QB draft class years.

It is hard to comprehend, because it takes a huge conspiracy leap to go there. No GM prospect worth a lick, and as much as we hate him, Pioli was a blue chip GM prospect, so was Dorsey, neither one would take a job where they were handcuffed by ownership, especially concerning the most important position on the field.

[Just Passin' By]

...The last 2 paragraphs are 100% spot on.

Good post.

The opportunity costs argument is a non-starter.

[HemiEd]

In either case, the QB must have a good team around them. I think there's something to be said for having a QB that can at least win some games, and thats through making plays, and NOT making costly plays. I know some people think the attitude of, you have just make the playoffs to win the superbowl, and you have to win regular season games to make the playoffs, it like saying, this team is just satisfied making the playoffs! Which is ridiculous.

My bottom line is, I'd rather be where the Chiefs are QB wise, than any of the teams that drafted QBs high last year, and any team that will draft a QB high this year. I thought giving up 2 seconds last year was pretty steep, but I'm becoming more and more comfortable with it.

I used to feel the same way. Give me more wins than losses, be competitive and not embarrassing and we are good!

Do you honestly think their first priority is to win a Super Bowl?

I still love to follow the team, but I have them in a comfortable place now that I am confident that I know what they are trying to do.

Keep the seats full, the fans happy, the fans wearing red and the banners out of the sky. A veteran QB has the greatest chance of accomplishing that.

[keg in kc]

I imagine Lamar Hunt was rolling in his grave with laughter on the Jamarcus Russel bust for the Raiders. ROFLI can't speak for Lamar or anybody else, but now that we've gone two full decades without a playoff win, I have a hard time laughing at anybody else's failure.

[SDChiefs]

You think wrong.

I'm mad because he says he's building through the draft while trading away draft picks.

If you don't see those two things as contradictory, you're just being stubborn because they absolutely are.

You are wrong in so many ways it has become tiring. you CAN build through the draft and use other avenues to fill holes. building through the draft means the majority of your players are drafted and usually the core foundation is as well. it doesnt mean they refuse to make the team better via trade or free agency. Your one argument is Dorsey made 1 trade so hes not building through the draft even though he is stockpiling picks and not signing a lot of free agents. Thats lunacy.

[Marcellus]

You are wrong in so many ways it has become tiring. you CAN build through the draft and use other avenues to fill holes. building through the draft means the majority of your players are drafted and usually the core foundation is as well. it doesnt mean they refuse to make the team better via trade or free agency. Your one argument is Dorsey made 1 trade so hes not building through the draft even though he is stockpiling picks and not signing a lot of free agents. Thats lunacy.

It's extremely simplistic narrow minded agenda driven thinking is what it is.

Its simply a narrative built for 1 purpose, to be able to complain about this off-season.

[HemiEd]

What do you mean the timing of Cassel and Smith? They traded for them in weak QB draft class years. Their very first moves, right out of the gate. Neither of them even spent any length of time evaluating other options because they pulled the trigger too quick.
It was ok thought to spend the #3 overall on Tyson Jackson and the #1 overall on a right tackle from a small school.

It is hard to comprehend, because it takes a huge conspiracy leap to go there. No GM prospect worth a lick, and as much as we hate him, Pioli was a blue chip GM prospect, so was Dorsey, neither one would take a job where they were handcuffed by ownership, especially concerning the most important position on the field.
That is where I disagree. The Hunts are well known and respected for not micro managing for the most part, so having this one rule wouldn't be that hard to accept when you are getting paid millions of dollars.

I am just calling it the way I see it. I would be thrilled to be proven wrong some day, but I would put the money on my side of it.

[Messier]

Do you honestly think their first priority is to win a Super Bowl?



Absolutely.

[HemiEd]

I can't speak for Lamar or anybody else, but now that we've gone two full decades without a playoff win, I have a hard time laughing at anybody else's failure.

Exactly, and at least the Raiders were trying to achieve greatness at the risk of failure to achieve mediocrity.

The Raiders have been failing at mediocrity for quite some time and our beloved Chiefs won the division in 2010 with Matt Cassel and got a wild card spot last season with Alex Smith.

So who is achieving their goal and who is wrong? I am cool with what the Chiefs are doing now that I know what it is and have no false hope of them drafting a franchise QB anymore.

[Messier]

Their very first moves, right out of the gate. Neither of them even spent any length of time evaluating other options because they pulled the trigger too quick.
It was ok thought to spend the #3 overall on Tyson Jackson and the #1 overall on a right tackle from a small school.


That is where I disagree. The Hunts are well known and respected for not micro managing for the most part, so having this one rule wouldn't be that hard to accept when you are getting paid millions of dollars.

I am just calling it the way I see it. I would be thrilled to be proven wrong some day, but I would put the money on my side of it.


That's one HUGE rule that they have to follow. No, they wouldn't take the job with that stipulation. But, why would the Hunts have that as a rule in the first place? Because they got burned on it once? They got burned at a lot of positions in the past.

[htismaqe]

You are wrong in so many ways it has become tiring. you CAN build through the draft and use other avenues to fill holes. building through the draft means the majority of your players are drafted and usually the core foundation is as well. it doesnt mean they refuse to make the team better via trade or free agency. Your one argument is Dorsey made 1 trade so hes not building through the draft even though he is stockpiling picks and not signing a lot of free agents. Thats lunacy.

You're so tired of it you can't resist responding.

Sheep.

[htismaqe]

It's extremely simplistic narrow minded agenda driven thinking is what it is.

Its simply a narrative built for 1 purpose, to be able to complain about this off-season.

You might have a point, if I were actually complaining...

[keg in kc]

Exactly, and at least the Raiders were trying to achieve greatness at the risk of failure to achieve mediocrity.

The Raiders have been failing at mediocrity for quite some time and our beloved Chiefs won the division in 2010 with Matt Cassel and got a wild card spot last season with Alex Smith.

So who is achieving their goal and who is wrong? I am cool with what the Chiefs are doing now that I know what it is and have no false hope of them drafting a franchise QB anymore.So, basically, your point is that you're happy as long as we're less inept than the Raiders.

More power to you, I guess. I tend to put the bar a little higher than that.

[Chief Roundup]

It's extremely simplistic narrow minded agenda driven thinking is what it is.

Its simply a narrative built for 1 purpose, to be able to complain about every off-season.
FYP

He would have rather we drafted Geno Smith at 1.1 and paid him a QB contract worthy of the 1.1 knowing that contract is fully guaranteed or maybe have signed some shit backup QB while knowing the fans are flying banners and unhappy with the product and those moves would not have improved the product all while fan interest is leaving.

[htismaqe]

FYP

He would have rather we drafted Geno Smith at 1.1 and paid him a QB contract worthy of the 1.1 knowing that contract is fully guaranteed or maybe have signed some shit backup QB while knowing the fans are flying banners and unhappy with the product and those moves would not have improved the product all while fan interest is leaving.

I hope you're not talking about me. Because you'd be wrong.

And FYI, Geno's contract wouldn't be significantly different than Eric Fisher's. You do know what salary slotting is, right?

[Chief Roundup]

Their very first moves, right out of the gate. Neither of them even spent any length of time evaluating other options because they pulled the trigger too quick.
It was ok thought to spend the #3 overall on Tyson Jackson and the #1 overall on a right tackle from a small school.


That is where I disagree. The Hunts are well known and respected for not micro managing

Oh so you don't think that Pioli thought he knew exactly what he was getting in Cassel or the probability factor of Mark Sanchez becoming a franchise QB. I am sure he did and to suggest otherwise is not thinking rationally.
You also don't think that Dorsey knew anything about Alex Smith...How long has he been in the league. Who again was working in the scouting department that year looking at Alex Smith vs. Aaron Rodgers? You don't think that they didn't know what to expect out of Geno Smith. Man come on this is some pretty ridiculous stuff right here.
If any of this was correct then Dorsey would not be considered as he is in the NFL.
If the Hunts are known for NOT micro managing then why would they? One rule or not is still micro managing when it is about the MOST IMPORTANT POSITION ON THE FIELD THAT COSTS THE MOST MONEY.

[Chief Roundup]

I hope you're not talking about me. Because you'd be wrong.

And FYI, Geno's contract wouldn't be significantly different than Eric Fisher's. You do know what salary slotting is, right?

Oh really then I would like to hear it again. Because all you do is bitch no matter what move they make that they could have or should have done something different.
There is slotting but it does vary some by position from what I have seen.

[htismaqe]

Oh really then I would like to hear it again. Because all you do is bitch no matter what move they make that they could have or should have done something different.
There is slotting but it does vary some by position from what I have seen.

I'm not bitching about anything. And I've said good things about several of their moves.

You're one of the most narrow-minded people here.

[Chief Roundup]

You're one of the most narrow-minded people here.

Oh really point it out. I know you can't. I am very open minded and accepting of the moves that they have made and the rational behind them.

Yeah you say you are not bitching but it is what everyone else gets out of your posts.

[Chief Roundup]

And FYI, Geno's contract wouldn't be significantly different than Eric Fisher's. You do know what salary slotting is, right?

Eric Fisher was also rated much higher than Geno Smith in the draft.

[htismaqe]

Oh really point it out. I know you can't. I am very open minded and accepting of the moves that they have made and the rational behind them.

ROFL

Yeah you say you are not bitching but it is what everyone else gets out of your posts.

I can't help it if people are so insecure they can't handle dissenting opinions.

[htismaqe]

Eric Fisher was also rated much higher than Geno Smith in the draft.

So you don't understand salary slotting then. Got it.

[HemiEd]

Absolutely.Good. We all appreciate you supporting the team buying tickets and merchandise. It is not my goal to pop any bubbles, just giving my opinion for the sake of discussion after being called an idiot.

That's one HUGE rule that they have to follow. No, they wouldn't take the job with that stipulation. But, why would the Hunts have that as a rule in the first place?Do you have some inside information? I am just looking at the track record and putting together the information we do have. Maybe the rule isn't that cut and dry, maybe it is something like "if you use a first on a QB you had better be right, we need to get this team back to competitive this coming season!" Because they got burned on it once? They got burned at a lot of positions in the past.

They didn't just get burned on it once, that was just the worst and the last time. Their only SB success was with a QB drafted by another team. The fans got pretty ugly with Todd Blackledge and the continued QB failures. Of course that also came after over a decade of missing the playoffs.
Heck yes they have been burned repeatedly on tackles etc., making it all the more frustrating for some of us.

[htismaqe]

Good. We all appreciate you supporting the team buying tickets and merchandise. It is not my goal to pop any bubbles, just giving my opinion for the sake of discussion after being called an idiot.

There is no discussion. If you're not on board and in full agreement with everything the Chiefs do, you are an idiot.

[Chief Roundup]

ROFL



I can't help it if people are so insecure they can't handle dissenting opinions.

nice tap out.

[htismaqe]

nice tap out.

ROFL

Deflection won't save you, dumbass.

[philfree]

Good. We all appreciate you supporting the team buying tickets and merchandise. It is not my goal to pop any bubbles, just giving my opinion for the sake of discussion after being called an idiot.

Do you have some inside information? I am just looking at the track record and putting together the information we do have. Maybe the rule isn't that cut and dry, maybe it is something like "if you use a first on a QB you had better be right, we need to get this team back to competitive this coming season!"

They didn't just get burned on it once, that was just the worst and the last time. Their only SB success was with a QB drafted by another team. The fans got pretty ugly with Todd Blackledge and the continued QB failures. Of course that also came after over a decade of missing the playoffs.
Heck yes they have been burned repeatedly on tackles etc., making it all the more frustrating for some of us.

Are you sure you're looking at all the info? Did DV trade for Trent Green because Lamar said he couldn't draft a QB? Same goes for Pioli and Cassel. After they drafted DT and made the playoffs do you think Marty and Carl wanted to bring in a rookie QB? To me it's pretty obvious that the regimes in place since Carl was hired have made their own choices.

[HemiEd]

So, basically, your point is that you're happy as long as we're less inept than the Raiders.

More power to you, I guess. I tend to put the bar a little higher than that.
Keg, that was not my point at all. I was using the Raiders as a comparison, since they are trying to win it all and failing.

I don't think I said I was happy, but I am at peace with what the Chiefs are doing because they are out of my control. I am at peace with the fact that they are not going to do what I would like for them to do, ever. Hell, if they drafted Geno and got it wrong, so what? They have failed at plenty other first round picks.
It used to get me worked up and pissed off, not anymore. It is out of my control and I am no longer disappointed when they reach and take a tackle in the first after not wanting to take a chance on a QB.


Oh so you don't think that Pioli thought he knew exactly what he was getting in Cassel or the probability factor of Mark Sanchez becoming a franchise QB. I am sure he did and to suggest otherwise is not thinking rationally. Wow, where to begin with you. You are exactly stating my point. They are going with a known entity that will get the team competitive instead of taking a chance on one that just may get them to greatness. It doesn't really matter which one, they just have not taken the chance.
You also don't think that Dorsey knew anything about Alex Smith...How long has he been in the league. Who again was working in the scouting department that year looking at Alex Smith vs. Aaron Rodgers? You don't think that they didn't know what to expect out of Geno Smith. Man come on this is some pretty ridiculous stuff right here. Once again, thanks for making my point just like above.
If any of this was correct then Dorsey would not be considered as he is in the NFL.
If the Hunts are known for NOT micro managing then why would they? One rule or not is still micro managing when it is about the MOST IMPORTANT POSITION ON THE FIELD THAT COSTS THE MOST MONEY.It is also the most risky, with the most pressure and failure at the position can make a pretty good team look pretty bad. Thus the known entity at that position has been the least risky.

[temper11]

There is no discussion. If you're not on board and in full agreement with everything the Chiefs do, you are an idiot.

I'm not trying to poke you with a stick here HT, but this goes both ways. You have used your little falling down laughy emoticon several times on my posts that I did not intend to be funny. Indicating that you believed I was an idiot because I disagreed with your opinion.

[HemiEd]

There is no discussion. If you're not on board and in full agreement with everything the Chiefs do, you are an idiot.

I felt that way when I found this place and got hammered ruthlessly for it. I was full out homer. I hated Whitlock for badmouthing them.

Shane069 and I used to have some pretty strong arguments, but he was right. It took me quite a while, a lot more evidence, but I get it now.

We need some of those guys back.

[htismaqe]

I'm not trying to poke you with a stick here HT, but this goes both ways. You have used your little falling down laughy emoticon several times on my posts that I did not intend to be funny. Indicating that you believed I was an idiot because I disagreed with your opinion.

If I think something is valid and worth responding to, I don't generally respond with a single emoticon.

Naturally, I'm of the opinion that less and less here is worth responding to.

Part of that is my own cynicism and part of that is that Chiefsplanet has become completely polarized and intolerant of actual discussion.

[htismaqe]

Are you sure you're looking at all the info? Did DV trade for Trent Green because Lamar said he couldn't draft a QB? Same goes for Pioli and Cassel. After they drafted DT and made the playoffs do you think Marty and Carl wanted to bring in a rookie QB? To me it's pretty obvious that the regimes in place since Carl was hired have made their own choices.

Why does Clark keep hiring guys like this then?

He may not be mandating they do it, but he sure as hell isn't mandating that they DON'T.

[HemiEd]

Are you sure you're looking at all the info? Did DV trade for Trent Green because Lamar said he couldn't draft a QB? Same goes for Pioli and Cassel. After they drafted DT and made the playoffs do you think Marty and Carl wanted to bring in a rookie QB? To me it's pretty obvious that the regimes in place since Carl was hired have made their own choices.

DV was not the GM, Carl Peterson was. It is part of Carl's track record of never drafting a 1st round QB. It would make sense to me, if a GM was ever going to draft a 1st round QB, it would be his first draft when he has more time and forgiveness to get it right from fans and ownership. Not when he is up against the wall like Carl was when he begged DV out of retirement to save his ass. That was a "we have to win now" situation if there ever was one.

But if you draw different conclusions, like it is all coincidence, so be it. Enjoy! They will draft one next year, I promise.

[temper11]

[QUOTE=HemiEd;10538814] It is out of my control and I am no longer disappointed when they reach and take a tackle in the first after not wanting to take a chance on a QB.
QUOTE]

I've seen this a few times... Many here believe that the Chiefs were "afraid of the risk" in taking a QB in the first round. Does no one believe that maybe the organization was in favor of selecting a QB but Andy Reid wanted Smith? It has been well documented that Andy has persued Smith several times over the years and he finally got his chance here in KC. I realize you all have history with this, but isn't it possible, even likely, that the Chiefs not risking a 1.1 pick on a QB had nothing to do with them not wanting to be risky and everything to do with giving their new HC the QB he wanted?

[philfree]

Why does Clark keep hiring guys like this then?

He may not be mandating they do it, but he sure as hell isn't mandating that they DON'T.

Right! They haven't mandated it either way. That's my opinion anyways.

[Messier]

Good. We all appreciate you supporting the team buying tickets and merchandise. It is not my goal to pop any bubbles, just giving my opinion for the sake of discussion after being called an idiot.

Do you have some inside information? I am just looking at the track record and putting together the information we do have. Maybe the rule isn't that cut and dry, maybe it is something like "if you use a first on a QB you had better be right, we need to get this team back to competitive this coming season!"

They didn't just get burned on it once, that was just the worst and the last time. Their only SB success was with a QB drafted by another team. The fans got pretty ugly with Todd Blackledge and the continued QB failures. Of course that also came after over a decade of missing the playoffs.
Heck yes they have been burned repeatedly on tackles etc., making it all the more frustrating for some of us.


I have no inside information. I have common sense. It is a stretch to think the Hunts, Carl Peterson, Scott Pioli, John Dorsey, have a mandate to not draft a QB. There isn't "true fan" homerish thinking behind this. This is just not thinking there is a conspiracy going on to keep the Chiefs at 8-8. You're mad and frustrated, I understand that, when the team isn't doing what you want it can make you angry. It can lead to, I'll bet so and so is going on, I'll bet they don't care about winning a SB, I'll bet they're told not to draft a QB.

Sorry I called you an idiot. I don't think you are.

[temper11]

If I think something is valid and worth responding to, I don't generally respond with a single emoticon.

Naturally, I'm of the opinion that less and less here is worth responding to.

Part of that is my own cynicism and part of that is that Chiefsplanet has become completely polarized and intolerant of actual discussion.

In my opinion we all need to look in the mirror, because many here are often part of that intolerance. I really enjoy some of your posts even when I don't agree with them, because it's clear you have a lot of knowledge and history with the Chiefs, but other times you simply dismiss any opinion contrary to your own as being a homer or ignorant and therefore "not worthy of your response".

Anyway, like I said, I enjoy a lot of your posts, and do try to filter out the cynicism, but others may not be able to and will read all of your posts through an adversarial lens because many of them come across that way.

[htismaqe]

Right! They haven't mandated it either way. That's my opinion anyways.

I honestly don't think Clark cares, at least not in the same way Dorsey and Reid do. In fact, I don't want him to care. He's the owner. For all intents and purposes, he's like us. He's a fan. He wants the team to win. Of course, he wants to make money.

But he doesn't know the in's and out's of being a football GM. He's not Jerry Jones and thank God for that. They aren't any better than the Chiefs and that guy is a fucking circus act...

[htismaqe]

In my opinion we all need to look in the mirror, because many here are often part of that intolerance. I really enjoy some of your posts even when I don't agree with them, because it's clear you have a lot of knowledge and history with the Chiefs, but other times you simply dismiss any opinion contrary to your own as being a homer or ignorant and therefore "not worthy of your response".

That response comes from having been here and doing this for 12 years. It honestly just gets tedious after a while.

Anyway, like I said, I enjoy a lot of your posts, and do try to filter out the cynicism, but others may not be able to and will read all of your posts through an adversarial lens because many of them come across that way.

It's been that way for a few years now. Chiefsplanet has been extremely polarized since about the time Herm came here. If you're not 100% with them, you're against them.

[philfree]

DV was not the GM, Carl Peterson was. It is part of Carl's track record of never drafting a 1st round QB. It would make sense to me, if a GM was ever going to draft a 1st round QB, it would be his first draft when he has more time and forgiveness to get it right from fans and ownership. Not when he is up against the wall like Carl was when he begged DV out of retirement to save his ass. That was a "we have to win now" situation if there ever was one.

But if you draw different conclusions, like it is all coincidence, so be it. Enjoy! They will draft one next year, I promise.
DV got the QB he wanted end of story there. To suggest anything else is ridiculous even if Carl was the GM.

Who was Carl supposed to draft as our QB back in 1989? I can't remember who was even in the draft back then.

And don't try and tell me that Carl hired DV because he new DV wouldn't draft a QB. That'd be total BS.

[temper11]

It's been that way for a few years now. Chiefsplanet has been extremely polarized since about the time Herm came here.

Well, Chiefsplanet isn't alone in that. Niners boards are just as polarized. Human nature... We're Americans, but we divide ourselves up by religion, race, interests. We are all NFL fans but we divide ourselves up by teams. We are all Chiefs fans but we divide ourselves up between homers and doubters... You gather up all the homers and put them into a discussion group and they will find what they disagree on and polarize again.

The disagreement is the fun part, that's why we are here. It would just be preferable, in my opinion, if it didn't deteriorate from disagreement discussion into adversarial posturing. But maybe I'm in the minority on that. Maybe many here like that aspect of it because it gives them an outlet to be mean in a way that they don't get anywhere else.

blah blah blah. Alex Smith is the best QB the Chiefs have ever had... divide and discuss. :)

(edit... was joking on the Alex Smith thing, not trying to hijack the thread.)

[HemiEd]

I have no inside information. I have common sense. It is a stretch to think the Hunts, Carl Peterson, Scott Pioli, John Dorsey, have a mandate to not draft a QB. There isn't "true fan" homerish thinking behind this. This is just not thinking there is a conspiracy going on to keep the Chiefs at 8-8. You're mad and frustrated, I understand that, when the team isn't doing what you want it can make you angry. It can lead to, I'll bet so and so is going on, I'll bet they don't care about winning a SB, I'll bet they're told not to draft a QB.

Sorry I called you an idiot. I don't think you are.

No problem Messier and my apologies for returning the insult. You have always been a quality poster and I know my theory doesn't sit well with many. I was always a 10-6 guy myself, that was the goal IMO. That will get you in the playoffs more times than it won't.

I no longer get mad at their choices, I am prepared for them.

The maddest I ever got was when the Browns moved up and took Brady Quinn right in front of the Chiefs. It turns out Bowe was a better pick and I was wrong.
I was one of the few that wanted them to take Aaron Rodgers instead of Derrick Johnson, but was Derrick Johnson a better pick than Aaron Rodgers? Aaron Rodgers might have failed as a Chief, just like Geno might have excelled as a Chief, we will never know.

Then, every time I saw Damon Huard take a snap, I got mad. Then every time I saw Matt Cassel's face, or even the #7 scribbled on a piece of paper I got mad.
Then, and only then, when the first move this new regime made was to trade for Alex Smith, I quit getting mad.

I didn't get mad again until Alex Smith had a chance to put the team on his back at the end of the playoff game, but that was a Tequilla induced mad.

This team can no longer make me mad, I am too old for it. I have them in their proper place in my life. I no longer obsess about them. I enjoy them, and follow them faithfully, but they can't make me mad. (I hope)

[HemiEd]

DV got the QB he wanted end of story there. To suggest anything else is ridiculous even if Carl was the GM.

Who was Carl supposed to draft as our QB back in 1989? I can't remember who was even in the draft back then.

And don't try and tell me that Carl hired DV because he new DV wouldn't draft a QB. That'd be total BS.

Phil, I told you why DV was hired. Re Read the post please. It was common knowledge at the time that Carl was on the hot seat and he begged his old buddy DV out of retirement. The Chiefs had to give up a 1st round pick to get DV. Remember?

You are really trying to bait me now suggesting anyone other than our beloved Derrick Thomas, RIP. The Chiefs, Carl Peterson actually did take a QB with their second pick, the second QB taken in the draft behind Aikman. Wait for it, Mike Elkins!

As I said earlier in this thread, Carl tried twice early in his tenure with 2nd round picks.

[temper11]

I'll say one thing. When the Chiefs do spend a number 1 pick on a QB, the long desired "QBOTF", that dude is going to have the weight of the world on his shoulders.

[Messier]

No problem Messier, you have always been a quality poster and I know my theory doesn't sit well with many. I was always a 10-6 guy myself, that was the goal IMO. That will get you in the playoffs more times than it won't.

I no longer get mad at their choices, I am prepared for them.

The maddest I ever got was when the Browns moved up and took Brady Quinn right in front of the Chiefs. It turns out Bowe was a better pick and I was wrong.
I was one of the few that wanted them to take Aaron Rodgers instead of Derrick Johnson, but was Derrick Johnson a better pick than Aaron Rodgers? Aaron Rodgers might have failed as a Chief, just like Geno might have excelled as a Chief, we will never know.

Then, every time I saw Damon Huard take a snap, I got mad. Then every time I saw Matt Cassel's face, or even the #7 scribbled on a piece of paper I got mad.
Then, and only then, when the first move this new regime made was to trade for Alex Smith, I quit getting mad.

I didn't get mad again until Alex Smith had a chance to put the team on his back at the end of the playoff game, but that was a Tequilla induced mad.

This team can no longer make me mad, I am too old for it. I have them in their proper place in my life. I no longer obsess about them. I enjoy them, and follow them faithfully, but they can't make me mad. (I hope)


I hear you. The playoff game just made me sick. Though, I was putting it all on the defenses shoulders. I was driving back from my in-laws, and listening helplessly as our lead got whittled away. Ugh.

[HemiEd]

I'll say one thing. When the Chiefs do spend a number 1 pick on a QB, the long desired "QBOTF", that dude is going to have the weight of the world on his shoulders.

Probably almost equal to being a number one pick in New York or Chicago.

[htismaqe]

I hear you. The playoff game just made me sick. Though, I was putting it all on the defenses shoulders. I was driving back from my in-laws, and listening helplessly as our lead got whittled away. Ugh.

Like I told someone yesterday, that's one of the few benefits of being cynical about the Chiefs.

I wasn't shocked or outraged when they lost. It was a little hard to believe they were losing the lead as it was happening but I walked away from the game with no feeling whatsoever. I just went about my day.

[Messier]

Like I told someone yesterday, that's one of the few benefits of being cynical about the Chiefs.

I wasn't shocked or outraged when they lost. It was a little hard to believe they were losing the lead as it was happening but I walked away from the game with no feeling whatsoever. I just went about my day.

I both envy and pity you.

[chiefzilla1501]

No problem Messier, you have always been a quality poster and I know my theory doesn't sit well with many. I was always a 10-6 guy myself, that was the goal IMO. That will get you in the playoffs more times than it won't.

I no longer get mad at their choices, I am prepared for them.

The maddest I ever got was when the Browns moved up and took Brady Quinn right in front of the Chiefs. It turns out Bowe was a better pick and I was wrong.
I was one of the few that wanted them to take Aaron Rodgers instead of Derrick Johnson, but was Derrick Johnson a better pick than Aaron Rodgers? Aaron Rodgers might have failed as a Chief, just like Geno might have excelled as a Chief, we will never know.

Then, every time I saw Damon Huard take a snap, I got mad. Then every time I saw Matt Cassel's face, or even the #7 scribbled on a piece of paper I got mad.
Then, and only then, when the first move this new regime made was to trade for Alex Smith, I quit getting mad.

I didn't get mad again until Alex Smith had a chance to put the team on his back at the end of the playoff game, but that was a Tequilla induced mad.

This team can no longer make me mad, I am too old for it. I have them in their proper place in my life. I no longer obsess about them. I enjoy them, and follow them faithfully, but they can't make me mad. (I hope)

Good post. Except that it's hard to blame Smith for the playoff game given that he carried the team the entire game. If I blame the offense at all, it's the WTF playcalling on Reid's part. Because arguably, even if you're talking about rallying the team back, let's not forget that he threw a decent ball and Bowe didn't make a difficult but makeable catch in bounds that would have set up a game winning field goal attempt.

[htismaqe]

I both envy and pity you.

I don't care. :D

[HemiEd]

I hear you. The playoff game just made me sick. Though, I was putting it all on the defenses shoulders. I was driving back from my in-laws, and listening helplessly as our lead got whittled away. Ugh.I said in the game thread once they got behind, we are going to now see what Alex Smith is made of. I wasn't discounting the great game he already had, but I was hoping he would be Joe Montana. I mistakenly started a thread about it when I was buzzed.

Like I told someone yesterday, that's one of the few benefits of being cynical about the Chiefs.

I wasn't shocked or outraged when they lost. It was a little hard to believe they were losing the lead as it was happening but I walked away from the game with no feeling whatsoever. I just went about my day.

I told my wife at the end of the 3rd quarter the Chiefs were going to lose. :banghead:

[SDChiefs]

You're so tired of it you can't resist responding.

Sheep.

youre an idiot. ive stopped reading several threads because of your stupidity. then i respond once because im tired of it and im a sheep. nice. why dont you pull your head out of you ass and grow some common sense and maybe a little book smarts might go a long way too.

[Coochie liquor]

Are you sure you're looking at all the info? Did DV trade for Trent Green because Lamar said he couldn't draft a QB? Same goes for Pioli and Cassel. After they drafted DT and made the playoffs do you think Marty and Carl wanted to bring in a rookie QB? To me it's pretty obvious that the regimes in place since Carl was hired have made their own choices.

This!!
Maybe they haven't drafted a qb because there hasn't been one that they've wanted to take at the position they were drafting. Maybe their boards didn't have them ranked as high as fans that are desperate for a elite qb. I think we're fine with Alex Smith. If the FO and coach have a qb on their board when we draft that they feel is gonna be a better qbotf than what we currently have then I say take him. But don't draft a qb too early because you're desperate for one!!

[philfree]

Phil, I told you why DV was hired. Re Read the post please. It was common knowledge at the time that Carl was on the hot seat and he begged his old buddy DV out of retirement. The Chiefs had to give up a 1st round pick to get DV. Remember?

You are really trying to bait me now suggesting anyone other than our beloved Derrick Thomas, RIP. The Chiefs, Carl Peterson actually did take a QB with their second pick, the second QB taken in the draft behind Aikman. Wait for it, Mike Elkins!

As I said earlier in this thread, Carl tried twice early in his tenure with 2nd round picks.

Yeah you told me. I don't think Carl was really on the hot seat and I heard or read where Carl said that before he hired Marty that he was trying to get DV to come out of retirement and coach the Chiefs. DV was always his choice for HC. And I'm not baiting anyone I'm just saying that I don't believe that's there an edict from the Hunts saying we don't draft QBs in the 1st round. I don't believe that experienced HCs with plenty of job opportunity's would except the job under such circumstance. I can see why some folks have come to believe that there's some kind of edict but I don't.

[htismaqe]

youre an idiot. ive stopped reading several threads because of your stupidity. then i respond once because im tired of it and im a sheep. nice. why dont you pull your head out of you ass and grow some common sense and maybe a little book smarts might go a long way too.

ROFL

Book smarts? You can't even punctuate sentences correctly.

We could have left this to just Chiefs smack but since you want to go there, by all means, let's do this...

[temper11]

This!!
Maybe they haven't drafted a qb because there hasn't been one that they've wanted to take at the position they were drafting. Maybe their boards didn't have them ranked as high as fans that are desperate for a elite qb. I think we're fine with Alex Smith. If the FO and coach have a qb on their board when we draft that they feel is gonna be a better qbotf than what we currently have then I say take him. But don't draft a qb too early because you're desperate for one!!

This is my belief as well. If a guy you like is there, then take him. If not, don't take one just for the sake of taking one. Chiefs were just unlucky last year to be 1.1 when the best projected talent on the board were a couple of tackles.

[SDChiefs]

ROFL

Book smarts? You can't even punctuate sentences correctly.

We could have left this to just Chiefs smack but since you want to go there, by all means, let's do this...

lol. if you say so. dont forget to come across that youre not bitching. although you are. constantly. the thread doesnt even have to be about the chiefs and you still bitch about them. cp "my mom got raped last night." you: "i wish dorsey would get raped. he says he builds through the draft and he mad a fucking trade. hes a liar and he deserves to burn in hell for it. and i dont give a shit about the chiefs but i troll this message board anyways. oh btw im not bitching."

[temper11]

youre an idiot. ive stopped reading several threads because of your stupidity. then i respond once because im tired of it and im a sheep. nice. why dont you pull your head out of you ass and grow some common sense and maybe a little book smarts might go a long way too.

so much for my "let's just all get along speech"! :D Gee, I really thought that was going to work too. Hmm.

[htismaqe]

the thread doesnt even have to be about the chiefs and you still bitch about them.

I've never done this. Literally.

hes a liar and he deserves to burn in hell for it.

And I've never said anything even remotely resembling this.

I get it. You're 14. You love the Chiefs. You have a hard time with school and girls, so they're all you have.

[htismaqe]

so much for my "let's just all get along speech"! :D Gee, I really thought that was going to work too. Hmm.

I was prepared to let it go. Just so you know. You'll notice that I haven't argued any further with you and I was even cordial with Messier.

[SDChiefs]

I've never done this. Literally.



And I've never said anything even remotely resembling this.

I get it. You're 14. You love the Chiefs. You have a hard time with school and girls, so they're all you have.

i was paraphraing you not quoting. im not 14 and this has nothing to do with love or hate for the chiefs. this has to do with hate for stupid people who cant understand simple concepts. and not only that they try to argue that they are right and your stupid cause you can understand it. you belong with black bob, knowmo and r8ters in the top teirs of trolls. just to help you understand this even though you probably wont, by they i mean you.

[htismaqe]

i was paraphraing you not quoting. im not 14 and this has nothing to do with love or hate for the chiefs. this has to do with hate for stupid people who cant understand simple concepts. and not only that they try to argue that they are right and your stupid cause you can understand it. you belong with black bob, knowmo and r8ters in the top teirs of trolls. just to help you understand this even though you probably wont, by they i mean you.

ROFL

[HemiEd]

Yeah you told me. I don't think Carl was really on the hot seat I thought that was pretty common knowledge, wasn't he in going into year 13 of his 5 year plan?and I heard or read where Carl said that before he hired Marty that he was trying to get DV to come out of retirement and coach the Chiefs.First time I had heard that, or else I forgot about it DV was always his choice for HC. And I'm not baiting anyone I'm just saying that I don't believe that's there an edict from the Hunts saying we don't draft QBs in the 1st round. I don't believe that experienced HCs with plenty of job opportunity's would except the job under such circumstance. I can see why some folks have come to believe that there's some kind of edict but I don't.
Thank you for that. I have stated all of my reasons why I believe it, no point in rehashing them. I do remember Clark saying, when Herm took over IIRC, that he wanted to draft and develop a QB. I believed him then.

[Rausch]

I thought that was pretty common knowledge, wasn't he in going into year 13 of his 5 year plan?First time I had heard that, or else I forgot about it.

Carl Talked about it a bunch that first offseason after getting DV.


Thank you for that. I have stated all of my reasons why I believe it, no point in rehashing them. I do remember Clark saying, when Herm took over IIRC, that he wanted to draft and develop a QB. I believed him then.

Herm had a man crush on Matty Ice. I remember him spending a bunch of time with him on his pro day (or combine. Not sure which) and gushing about him...

[HemiEd]

Carl Talked about it a bunch that first offseason after getting DV.

The cobwebs are clearing a little with Phil's and your help. Do you remember that it was a "win now" situation? I loved watching that team and Vermeil, but I think it is inappropriate for anyone to use Dick Vermeils name in the same paragraph as "draft."


Herm had a man crush on Matty Ice. I remember him spending a bunch of time with him on his pro day (or combine. Not sure which) and gushing about him...

I was hoping he would draft Leinert as well. As much as I hated Herm, he put a lot of talent on this team.

[WhiteWhale]

Like I told someone yesterday, that's one of the few benefits of being cynical about the Chiefs.

I wasn't shocked or outraged when they lost. It was a little hard to believe they were losing the lead as it was happening but I walked away from the game with no feeling whatsoever. I just went about my day.



I'm not cynical about the Chiefs... I just don't put any personal value on a sportsball team. Why should I get all emotional about it? Do I have any control over the outcome?

So yeah... I just went about my day. I mean what the hell else do people do? Throw remotes through TV's? Beat up their wife?

It's a ****ing game. I tend to emotionally invest in things I have some element of control or influence over. Watching football is how I kill 3 hours on a sunday.

[mcaj22]

This post is simply wrong and completely ruins any opinion you have on this subject moving forward.

Yea it's wrong of me to automatically assume a plan that John Dorsey is the next genius GM like in Seattle. Where I have to sit here and wait and just assume he will hit homeruns on his next 3 years worth of drafts and actually make smart moves in FA.

Yeah, I'd rather be wrong about my post than try and predict the future.

[chiefzilla1501]

Yea it's wrong of me to automatically assume a plan that John Dorsey is the next genius GM like in Seattle. Where I have to sit here and wait and just assume he will hit homeruns on his next 3 years worth of drafts and actually make smart moves in FA.

Yeah, I'd rather be wrong about my post than try and predict the future.

I am in full agreement with you and htis that the big thing to be skeptical about is execution. I just don't understand all the skepticism that even if they draft well (don't have to even hit home runs... just have to draft well consecutively), why this isn't a strategy that will work. Seattle is an extreme example of it working, but there are plenty of teams with more realistic success stories.

[philfree]

I thought that was pretty common knowledge, wasn't he in going into year 13 of his 5 year plan?First time I had heard that, or else I forgot about it
Thank you for that. I have stated all of my reasons why I believe it, no point in rehashing them. I do remember Clark saying, when Herm took over IIRC, that he wanted to draft and develop a QB. I believed him then.

Yeah but wasn't Lamar still in charge? He wasn't firing Carl. DV was brought in to try and win a SB. Didn't work out but they put together a great offense with Trent Green and company.

[keg in kc]

I am in full agreement with you and htis that the big thing to be skeptical about is execution. I just don't understand all the skepticism that even if they draft well (don't have to even hit home runs... just have to draft well consecutively), why this isn't a strategy that will work. Seattle is an extreme example of it working, but there are plenty of teams with more realistic success stories.Unfortunately they haven't drafted well at this point, so it's kind of difficult to assume that they will in the future. It's not a lot of evidence so far, obviously, but it's all we have to go on.

[chiefzilla1501]

I thought that was pretty common knowledge, wasn't he in going into year 13 of his 5 year plan?First time I had heard that, or else I forgot about it
Thank you for that. I have stated all of my reasons why I believe it, no point in rehashing them. I do remember Clark saying, when Herm took over IIRC, that he wanted to draft and develop a QB. I believed him then.

It felt to me like Peterson was making a lot of decisions Herm was not too happy about. Herm sounded like he really wanted to start Croyle, not Huard. Peterson signed a huge contract for LJ, even though it seemed like Herm was not really a big fan of LJ in the locker room. For as much shit as Herm got, I think in terms of personnel, he was one of the few that got it right. He seemed the most eager to make gutsy bets on young QBs and was one of the few with the common sense to rebuild. If only the guy could actually coach too.

[chiefzilla1501]

Unfortunately they haven't drafted well at this point, so it's kind of difficult to assume that they will in the future. It's not a lot of evidence so far, obviously, but it's all we have to go on.

They haven't done well in free agency either (2013 or in our 20 year history), but that hasn't stopped people from screaming up and down that that's the only route we should be taking.

[keg in kc]

They haven't done well in free agency either (2013 or in our 20 year history), but that hasn't stopped people from screaming up and down that that's the only route we should be taking.Literally nobody has 'screamed up and down that that's the only route we should be taking".

[Rausch]

Unfortunately they haven't drafted well at this point, so it's kind of difficult to assume that they will in the future. It's not a lot of evidence so far, obviously, but it's all we have to go on.

They get an Incomplete.

I think you really need 3 years to judge a GM. 2 Years for a HC.

By then you know how a team is trending...

[keg in kc]

They get an Incomplete.

I think you really need 3 years to judge a GM. 2 Years for a HC.

By then you know how a team is trending...I agree completely. I also don't think you can judge a draft, either individually or as a class, for the same 3 years. But like I said, the only information I/we can go on right now is what we have. At least if the intention is to have a discussion based on reality.

[Mr. Laz]

They haven't done well in free agency either (2013 or in our 20 year history), but that hasn't stopped people from screaming up and down that that's the only route we should be taking.
completely wrong

That's the real point, we should be taking ALL routers available to us.

Not just the draft
Not just free agency
Not just trades

If you want to win a super bowl then you have to use everything.

Part of the reason this FA was so frustrating. We tried everything last year and now we aren't.



but you don't want to hear it, you're trying to be positive. I get it.

[chiefzilla1501]

completely wrong

That's the real point, we should be taking ALL routers available to us.

Not just the draft
Not just free agency
Not just trades

If you want to win a super bowl then you have to use everything.

Part of the reason this FA was so frustrating. We tried everything last year and now we aren't.



but you don't want to hear it, you're trying to be positive. I get it.

The same exact thing could be said for the 2011 Seahawks. Or the 2012 and 2013 Patriots.

[HemiEd]

It felt to me like Peterson was making a lot of decisions Herm was not too happy about. Herm sounded like he really wanted to start Croyle, not Huard. Peterson signed a huge contract for LJ, even though it seemed like Herm was not really a big fan of LJ in the locker room. For as much shit as Herm got, I think in terms of personnel, he was one of the few that got it right. He seemed the most eager to make gutsy bets on young QBs and was one of the few with the common sense to rebuild. If only the guy could actually coach too.
That is pretty much how I remember it.

Herm wanted to gut and rebuild, and Carl wanted to get the team back to 10-6.

Herm ended up going over Carl's head straight to Hunt.

Herm gutted the team, had a crappy record and Clark bailed on the rebuild and fired Herm.

The 2008 draft class was pretty darn good even if they did have a bunch of picks. They ended up winning the Jared Allen trade that I was so pissed about at the time.

Herm didn't ever take responsibility for any of the negatives, that was on everyone else. But he was first in line for the attaboys

[chiefzilla1501]

Literally nobody has 'screamed up and down that that's the only route we should be taking".

There are lots of people who believe we should be all in on free agency. That means that: 1) rather than let young guys compete for a starting job, we should instead look to free agency to buy an expensive surefire replacement; 2) That we are forcing a 2-3 year window so small that by the time any young guys develop, this team will need to tear it apart and start over again.

[keg in kc]

There are lots of people who believe we should be all in on free agency. That means that: 1) rather than let young guys compete for a starting job, we should instead look to free agency to buy an expensive surefire replacement; 2) That we are forcing a 2-3 year window so small that by the time any young guys develop, this team will need to tear it apart and start over again.You're trying to put words in peoples' mouths that they just aren't saying.

[HemiEd]

Part of the reason this FA was so frustrating. We tried everything last year and now we aren't.


.
Laz, last year was an odd year and this is an even year.

[chiefzilla1501]

That is pretty much how I remember it.

Herm wanted to gut and rebuild, and Carl wanted to get the team back to 10-6.

Herm ended up going over Carl's head straight to Hunt.

Herm gutted the team, had a crappy record and Clark bailed on the rebuild and fired Herm.

The 2008 draft class was pretty darn good even if they did have a bunch of picks. They ended up winning the Jared Allen trade that I was so pissed about at the time.

Herm didn't ever take responsibility for any of the negatives, that was on everyone else. But he was first in line for the attaboys

First, Clark didn't bail on the rebuild. If you'll recall, Herm basically got Peterson fired. When Clark hired Pioli, it meant Herm's job was numbered. It seemed like Clark really wanted Herm to get a chance to coach one more year.

Secondly, Herm didn't get any attaboys, but he should have. He sure did get blamed for the negatives, even the ones that were more the fault of Vermeil/Carl.

[Rausch]

There are lots of people who believe we should be all in on free agency. That means that: 1) rather than let young guys compete for a starting job, we should instead look to free agency to buy an expensive surefire replacement; 2) That we are forcing a 2-3 year window so small that by the time any young guys develop, this team will need to tear it apart and start over again.

It's not about free agency it's how you use it.

Just like draft picks.

Priest Holmes, E. Kennison, and J. Dunn were free agents.

Trades were T. Green and Meat Roaf.

It's about using the means at your disposal to add talent...

[Rausch]

Laz, last year was an odd year and this is an even year.

Fuck. I forgot about that...

[Marcellus]

Yea it's wrong of me to automatically assume a plan that John Dorsey is the next genius GM like in Seattle. Where I have to sit here and wait and just assume he will hit homeruns on his next 3 years worth of drafts and actually make smart moves in FA.

Yeah, I'd rather be wrong about my post than try and predict the future.

The point you were wrong about was NE doesn't sign big free agents every year. Its simply not true.

No team that sustains competitiveness uses 1 single method to build the team anyway except maybe the Steelers who don't sign many FA's.

Draft and FA all depends on the market or draft class and how they fit your needs at the time. Some years you may need to sign a big name guy that fills an immediate need but the base of your team is still always going to be through the draft.

From what I can tell the 2 most important things the good teams do once they have their QB.

1. Don't pay long term contracts for overpriced FA pick ups because they rarely pan out as being worth the $ and hamstring you later. See the Cowboys, Redskins, Eagles, and Raiders (past not present) for great examples.

2.They know when to cut bait with guys looking for their last big contract once they are on the back end of their prime. The Steelers and Patriots have done this forever.

Argue all you want on whether YOU think KC has their QB of choice for the next 4 years or so but its safe to say Reid and Dorsey believe this.

I can't think think of 1 team who signs a ton of FA players every year and is a consistent contender.

[HemiEd]

First, Clark didn't bail on the rebuild. If you'll recall, Herm basically got Peterson fired. When Clark hired Pioli, it meant Herm's job was numbered. It seemed like Clark really wanted Herm to get a chance to coach one more year.

Secondly, Herm didn't get any attaboys, but he should have. He sure did get blamed for the negatives, even the ones that were more the fault of Vermeil/Carl.

Yes Clark bailed on the rebuild and yes Herm got Carl fired by going over his head and pitching his plan to Clark like I said.
Herm was pretty upset with Clark for not keeping his word and letting him complete the rebuild when he got fired.
Everytime something good happened, Herm took credit for it.

Herm had zero interest in any of the Chiefs rivalries and actually liked the Raiders. Dead man walking.

[chiefzilla1501]

You're trying to put words in peoples' mouths that they just aren't saying.

What words am I putting in people's mouths?

I have advocated for a balanced approach. I have said I want to be quiet in this free agency, collect 3 to 4 comp picks and free up cap space to make a big run on free agents in 2015 and 2016. That's a balance between free agency and the draft.

The response I've gotten overwhelmingly is that those comp picks don't matter, that we should plug in our free agent gaps with free agents and we should be concerned if a young guy like Sanders Commings (a guy we drafted) is designated as the starter, and there are plenty who have specifically said they don't care if loading up on free agents today creates a less than favorable situation in 3 years because our window is dead anyway. That's not even close to a balanced approach.

[chiefzilla1501]

Yes Clark bailed on the rebuild and yes Herm got Carl fired by going over his head and pitching his plan to Clark like I said.
Herm was pretty upset with Clark for not keeping his word and letting him complete the rebuild when he got fired.
Everytime something good happened, Herm took credit for it.

Herm had zero interest in any of the Chiefs rivalries and actually liked the Raiders. Dead man walking.

I honestly don't know where you're getting this. Clark didn't bail on the rebuild, he bailed on Peterson. Because Peterson should have been fired. Hunt went out and tried to get the best GM on the market. He thought that guy was Pioli. Pretty well documented that Hunt wanted Herm to stay, but that he would give that final decision to Pioli. I haven't seen anything that suggests that Herm was fired for any other reason than Pioli wanted his own guy, versus because Hunt didn't want Herm.

[temper11]

I was prepared to let it go. Just so you know. You'll notice that I haven't argued any further with you and I was even cordial with Messier.

oh... don't stop arguing, please. That's the part of the point of these MB's afterall. For my part, I just plan on trying to be less offensive and more "to my point" than I've been in the past.

I just think you have some good shit to say, even when I don't agree, and more people would hear it if there wasn't such a combatitive tone to the MB.

Post on HT... we all want the same thing in the end anyway.... and no CP, I wasn't being sexual in that last sentence in any way shape or form. :D

[HemiEd]

I honestly don't know where you're getting this. Clark didn't bail on the rebuild, he bailed on Peterson. Because Peterson should have been fired. Hunt went out and tried to get the best GM on the market. He thought that guy was Pioli. Pretty well documented that Hunt wanted Herm to stay, but that he would give that final decision to Pioli. I haven't seen anything that suggests that Herm was fired for any other reason than Pioli wanted his own guy, versus because Hunt didn't want Herm.
True, he finally fired Peterson, as Peterson was done and a lame duck after Herm went over his head.
Clark bailed on the rebuild because he didn't back Herm up with Pioli, and Herm expected them to give him enough time to get it done. Clark was the boss. The buck stops there.

I don't remember seeing any documentation saying Clark wanted Herm to stay, but may have missed it. I can't imagine how though, hanging out here. But I detested Herm at the point.

Granted, Pioli was the hottest GM commodity out there, no question. He followed up one of the best drafts ever of Carl's and Herm's in 2008, with one of the worst ever, 2009 with hard earned #3 overall pick due to the crappy record from Herm's rebuilding.

[Rausch]

The response I've gotten overwhelmingly is that those comp picks don't matter...

That's not true.

The truth is that you overvalue the comp pick process.

What we will get is an unknown. We can guess but we don't KNOW what pick/s or how many we will get.

Even IF we get a 3rd rounder and 5th rounder (which I doubt) those are at the end of every round. You might as well say that's a 4th and 6th round choices.

You honestly believe that you fill the holes left by solid starters with 4th and 6th round choices? You think that's likely?...

[chiefzilla1501]

That's not true.

The truth is that you overvalue the comp pick process.

What we will get is an unknown. We can guess but we don't KNOW what pick/s or how many we will get.

Even IF we get a 3rd rounder and 5th rounder (which I doubt) those are at the end of every round. You might as well say that's a 4th and 6th round choices.

You honestly believe that you fill the holes left by solid starters with 4th and 6th round choices? You think that's likely?...

No, I don't. I think we can get up to 4 picks, by the way. Tyson Jackson was a wash because we brought in Walker. Right now, Asamoah, Schwartz, Albert, and McCluster should be up for comp because we really didn't have a signing of our own to counter that. I think of those 4 picks, a good drafter can land you 1 or 2 quality starters (e.g. Guard, RB, slot receiver) and can turn most of those into quality depth we've lacked for years and that's a problem we will struggle to fix through free agency. I also believe that those comp picks can help us fill in holes like Guard, Center, and nickel corners that keep us from wasting money on these guys via free agency. That's something Seattle seems to do very well.

But comp picks are just one piece of the draft puzzle. When I hear people say we need to load up now, restructure like crazy to free up space, etc... what that tells me is that: 1) that person doesn't want to risk playing a young guy and is taking the safe route of using free agency to plug holes; 2) that person doesn't seem to care that the guys we draft today will be set up for a bad roster situation 3 years from now, meaning they think we are better suited to win with a veteran team than we are with a core of young guys.

[keg in kc]

What words am I putting in people's mouths?I believe those words were "[free agency is the] only route we should be taking". Which you said "people" were "screaming up and down".

[chiefzilla1501]

I believe those words were "[free agency is the] only route we should be taking". Which you said people were "screaming up and down".

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. Of course nobody is saying trade away every pick we get. Of course anybody will want us to draft well with the picks we actually have. But when people suggest giving up picks to buy people now, when they want to fill every single gap we have with a free agent body instead of letting cheap young talent compete for it, and when people have specifically said we should act as if we have a 3 year window and should buy a bunch of veteran contracts to do that... that is saying that you want to build this team through free agency.

[Rausch]

No, I don't. I think we can get up to 4 picks, by the way. Tyson Jackson was a wash because we brought in Walker. Right now, Asamoah, Schwartz, Albert, and McCluster should be up for comp because we really didn't have a signing of our own to counter that.

Well, we can't. The most any team can get is 4.
Only Albert likely played enough snaps to even qualify for a comp pick. If we're lucky Asamoah.

You understand that number of snaps and starts also enter in to the equation, right?

And 3rd round comp picks are usually for upper tier players. Guys like Byrd or Jarred Allen. Odds are we get a 4th for Albert.

I also believe that those comp picks can help us fill in holes like Guard, Center, and nickel corners that keep us from wasting money on these guys via free agency. That's something Seattle seems to do very well.

We aren't Seattle.

We won't turn a possible 2 low round draft choices into 3 starters/contributors. And even if we could those choices come NEXT YEAR, not this year.

Those G/C/Nickel holes will still be there THIS year...

[htismaqe]

I am in full agreement with you and htis that the big thing to be skeptical about is execution. I just don't understand all the skepticism that even if they draft well (don't have to even hit home runs... just have to draft well consecutively), why this isn't a strategy that will work. Seattle is an extreme example of it working, but there are plenty of teams with more realistic success stories.

You're definitely not understanding me.

If they draft well, it WILL work. That's almost guaranteed.

I'm not convinced, after 30 years of being a Chiefs fan, that ANYBODY will draft well in KC with any consistency.

[Rausch]

You're definitely not understanding me.

If they draft well, it WILL work. That's almost guaranteed.

I'm not convinced, after 30 years of being a Chiefs fan, that ANYBODY will draft well in KC with any consistency.

Looking back Carl didn't do a bad job drafting...

[Mr. Laz]

Laz, last year was an odd year and this is an even year.

Fuck. I forgot about that...
dam, my bad.


I should have remembered that

[keg in kc]

Carl did a terrible job drafting from about '95 until he was fired. A couple of home run picks and a whole bunch of nothing.

[Rausch]

Carl did a terrible job drafting from about '95 until he was fired. A couple of home run picks and a whole bunch of nothing.

He doesn't get credit for Herm's drafts? He was still the GM.

Most the talent on this team was from Peterson drafts...

[htismaqe]

Carl did a terrible job drafting from about '95 until he was fired. A couple of home run picks and a whole bunch of nothing.

The 96 draft was pretty good.

The rest of it was basically Tony Gonzales and nobody else...

[htismaqe]

He doesn't get credit for Herm's drafts? He was still the GM.

Most the talent on this team was from Peterson drafts...

Bill Kuharich was in charge of personnel. Carl was focused on being just the President.

[Rausch]

Bill Kuharich was in charge of personnel. Carl was focused on being just the President.

That's right. He came on when Herm did, didn't he?...

[htismaqe]

That's right. He came on when Herm did, didn't he?...

He might have actually been here with DV too. I don't really remember.

[Marcellus]

You're definitely not understanding me.

If they draft well, it WILL work. That's almost guaranteed.

I'm not convinced, after 30 years of being a Chiefs fan, that ANYBODY will draft well in KC with any consistency.

The Seattle Seahawks have never won a SB since they were founded in 1976. I have no reason to believe they will ever win one.- Seahawks fan 2012.

[htismaqe]

The Seattle Seahawks have never won a SB since they were founded in 1976. I have no reason to believe they will ever win one.- Seahawks fan 2012.

You act as if said Seahawks fan wouldn't have been COMPLETELY FUCKING JUSTIFIED feeling that way in 2012. :shake:

[Mav]

Teams can draft very well, and still not win.

The 49ers drafted well in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010.

It didn't matter until they got the right coach to push them to their potential.

Just like if you have great coaching, and draft poorly, you will fail.

See the cowboys of the bill parcells era if you want to know what I mean.

[chiefzilla1501]

Well, we can't. The most any team can get is 4.
Only Albert likely played enough snaps to even qualify for a comp pick. If we're lucky Asamoah.

You understand that number of snaps and starts also enter in to the equation, right?

And 3rd round comp picks are usually for upper tier players. Guys like Byrd or Jarred Allen. Odds are we get a 4th for Albert.



We aren't Seattle.

We won't turn a possible 2 low round draft choices into 3 starters/contributors. And even if we could those choices come NEXT YEAR, not this year.

Those G/C/Nickel holes will still be there THIS year...

The comp pick has a heavy basis on value of the new contract and teams that lost more players than they gained are rewarded more handsomely. The chiefs should get a decent haul. They lost 5 guys who signed a pretty big contract elsewhere.

Those holes at guard will still be there. That's a position that to me is so low in importance, I'd be ecstatic if we got that with a late pick, even if that means waiting a year. And no, I don't think it's unreasonable for a good drafting team to turn comp picks into at the very least role players.

[chiefzilla1501]

He doesn't get credit for Herm's drafts? He was still the GM.

Most the talent on this team was from Peterson drafts...

Kuharich definitely gets most credit for the drafts. Herm was the guy that seemed most instrumental in pushing the front office to gut the team. And that was the right decision. I think Herm should have been fired anyway because he wasn't a coach who could take us to the top. But he definitely got scapegoated and blasted for what ended up being the right decisions.

[Rausch]

You act as if said Seahawks fan wouldn't have been COMPLETELY ****ING JUSTIFIED feeling that way in 2012. :shake:

That owner has at least proven competent enough to do what's necessary to make a SB...

[Rausch]

Kuharich definitely gets most credit for the drafts. Herm was the guy that seemed most instrumental in pushing the front office to gut the team. And that was the right decision. I think Herm should have been fired anyway because he wasn't a coach who could take us to the top. But he definitely got scapegoated and blasted for what ended up being the right decisions.

Herm was a great evaluator of talent and horrible HC coach...