Cardinals ***Official 2016 STL Cardinals Thread*** [Archive] - Page 7

BigRedChief

07-16-2016, 08:12 PM

Looks like Wainwright is finally rounding into form. Save for the pants-shitting against the Royals, he's been great since the first of June.Martinez has been good too. Starting pitching isn't our issue. Offense should be good enough to win. Defense is what it is.

The bullpen if where we need help. I hope we don't trade another 1st rounder for some 7th/8th inning guy who ends being shit.

However, you have to give Mo credit for the heyward trade in hindsight. They wanted Martinez and he walked away from the deal. He gave up Miller who is now in AAA and we got a 1st rounder when Heyward left. Basically got 5+ WAR and a 1st rounder for a AAA pitcher. The deal looks a lot better now than it did when the deal was made or when Heyward left.

jd1020

07-16-2016, 08:30 PM

However, you have to give Mo credit for the heyward trade in hindsight. They wanted Martinez and he walked away from the deal. He gave up Miller who is now in AAA and we got a 1st rounder when Heyward left. Basically got 5+ WAR and a 1st rounder for a AAA pitcher. The deal looks a lot better now than it did when the deal was made or when Heyward left.

I'm not sure how you can use hindsight to give Mo credit for that deal while ignoring what the Braves got for Shelby Miller.

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-16-2016, 08:34 PM

Having Dansby Swanson in the pipeline would be pretty nice right now. Certainly much better than the comp pick we got for Heyward and his production over one season.

The Braves cleaned up on that deal with the D'Backs.

BigRedChief

07-16-2016, 08:35 PM

I'm not sure how you can use hindsight to give Mo credit for that deal while ignoring what the Braves got for Shelby Miller.Values of players go up and down as always by their performance on the field. He had a career year. The Braves sold high.

Hindsight credit is also on the curve. We, most in here anyway, thought the deal was shit. We got snookered. Now, not so much. Well at least me personally. Maybe Miller has a career year with us? But, Martinez is, was and always will be the better pitcher.

jd1020

07-16-2016, 08:42 PM

Values of players go up and down as always by their performance on the field. He had a career year. The Braves sold high.

Hindsight credit is also on the curve. We, most in here anyway, thought the deal was shit. We got snookered. Now, not so much. Well at least me personally. Maybe Miller has a career year with us? But, Martinez is, was and always will be the better pitcher.

It still looks like shit, lol. It doesn't matter that you kept Martinez instead of Miller. You got one year out of Heyward that amounted to nothing and got a comp pick for him. They got one year out of Miller and got a starting CF, Dansby Swanson, and Aaron Blair.

BigRedChief

07-16-2016, 08:44 PM

It still looks like shit, lol. It doesn't matter that you kept Martinez instead of Miller. You got one year out of Heyward that amounted to nothing and got a comp pick for him. They got one year out of Miller and got a starting CF, Dansby Swanson, and Aaron Blair.Thats not apples to apples. Millers value was not the same to other teams when we traded him and when the Braves traded him.

If Miller had a career year and then we traded him, we would have got more than 1 year of Heyward too. Mo is not an idiot.

jd1020

07-16-2016, 08:46 PM

Thats not apples to apples. If Miller had a career year and then we traded him, we would have got more than 1 year of Heyward too.

You are using hindsight to say Mo did a good job. You say the deal was shit then and it still looks like shit now. You can't just go "Oh it was a good deal because who knows if Miller has a career year with us or not" when using hindsight.

BigRedChief

07-16-2016, 08:49 PM

You are using hindsight to say Mo did a good job. You say the deal was shit then and it still looks like shit now. You can't just go "Oh it was a good deal because who knows if Miller has a career year with us or not" when using hindsight.Same basic principle as to why we gave up Brett Wallace, Rasmus and many others with talent. Maybe we saw something that told them they had topped out on their talent level.

Looks like Miller is the same, just came a year later.

Maybe Kaminsky never amounts to anything and the Moss deal looks better in hindsight? Who the fuck knows about baseball trades until you see the full value and results from the trade.

jd1020

07-16-2016, 08:52 PM

Same basic principle as to why we gave up Brett Wallace, Rasmus and many others with talent. Maybe we saw something that told them they had topped out on their talent level.

Looks like Miller is the same, just came a year later.

There's literally no use in continue with this if you are going to continue ignoring what both teams in the deal ended up with. The deal was absolute shit then and it is still absolute shit now. Mo traded a 24 year old pitcher with 4 years of control left for a non power hitting OF with 1 year of control left.

BigRedChief

07-16-2016, 09:02 PM

There's literally no use in continue with this if you are going to continue ignoring what both teams in the deal ended up with. The deal was absolute shit then and it is still absolute shit now. Mo traded a 24 year old pitcher with 4 years of control left for a non power hitting OF with 1 year of control left.And you continue to ignore the change of Miller's performance on the field as my argument for his increase in trade value.

Seems to me that you are projecting your disappointment with Heyward this year into an argument for a trade made by STL/ATL two years ago.

jd1020

07-16-2016, 09:05 PM

And you continue to ignore the change of Miller's performance on the field as to the reason for his increase in trade value.

Seems to me that you are projecting your disappointment with Heyward this year into an argument for a trade made two years ago.

ROFL

Miller's career year in ATL is barely better than his 2013 numbers in STL. The only difference is his GB% which led to a lower HR/9. Miller was a good pitcher and Mo traded him for a hope and a prayer that St. Louis would woo Heyward.

And I'm not frustrated with Heyward, yet. I knew he was a project when they signed him and the Cubs have already made it known they aren't going to change his mechanics until the season is over. If he comes back next year with the same swing then I'll be frustrated.

Miles

07-18-2016, 02:38 PM

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/07/chris-correa-cardinals-46-months-prison-astros.html

46 month prison sentence to former scouting director as a result of the Astros database hack. At least there is no history of Goodell type punishments but this is obviously not good.

Marcellus

07-18-2016, 03:03 PM

Heyward is a project making $200MM?

LMAO that's some serious bullshit right there.

jd1020

07-18-2016, 03:48 PM

Heyward is a project making $200MM?

LMAO that's some serious bullshit right there.

Do you even pay attention to anything?

Every GM in baseball was talking about his flawed swing and had concerns about giving him that money. He got that money because of what he had shown in the past at the plate and his defensive ability. The only way he is worth that money is if he can open his ears and take some advice on hitting and get back to his 20-25 HR potential.

Pasta Little Brioni

07-18-2016, 05:13 PM

We warned you dude. That turd won't change. He's a 200 million defensive replacement/ 7th hitter tops

Pasta Little Brioni

07-18-2016, 06:12 PM

Lulz at sitting in 100 degree weather to watch Mike Leake

BigRedChief

07-19-2016, 12:30 AM

Lulz at sitting in 100 degree weather to watch Mike Leake6 innings, 1 run? I'll take that every start from him.

Pasta Little Brioni

07-19-2016, 12:40 AM

6 innings, 1 run? I'll take that every start from him.

True. Had to be sickening for Pad fans....almost as much as turd Pham hitting lead off.

VAChief

07-19-2016, 06:50 AM

True. Had to be sickening for Pad fans....almost as much as turd Pham hitting lead off.

That doesn't bother me with Carpenter out. Pham actually has had some decent OBP years when he was healthy in the minors. Much more likely to fill that role than Wong's pipe dream. Pham hits .275 with a .360 OBP and he can stay there, move Carpenter to #2 or #3, Diaz either #2 or #3.

DJ's left nut

07-19-2016, 08:50 AM

That doesn't bother me with Carpenter out. Pham actually has had some decent OBP years when he was healthy in the minors. Much more likely to fill that role than Wong's pipe dream. Pham hits .275 with a .360 OBP and he can stay there, move Carpenter to #2 or #3, Diaz either #2 or #3.

Exactly.

The alternative is rolling Wong out in CF again and watching him take massive cuts right through hittable pitches.

Diaz is an absolutely perfect #2 hitter. Piscotty and Holliday at 3/4 is pretty strong as well. I could be convinced to play Garcia at 3b and bat him leadoff but apart from that, Pham's probably the best available option.

Pasta Little Brioni

07-19-2016, 05:04 PM

That's pretty sad

seclark

07-19-2016, 05:34 PM

fuck shelby miller, and fuck jason heyward.
it's a draw.
sec

Jewish Rabbi

07-19-2016, 05:48 PM

fuck shelby miller, and fuck jason heyward.
it's a draw.
sec

Don't forget to fuck Jordan Walden!

bdj23

07-19-2016, 07:06 PM

Don't forget to **** Jordan Walden!

I forgot all about this guy. He hasn't pitched since what, April 2015?

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-19-2016, 07:21 PM

Someone asked Matheny about that fuck last night and he literally did not know where Walden was. What a biggity bitch.

Pasta Little Brioni

07-19-2016, 09:26 PM

Where where where oh where is jordo?

DJ's left nut

07-20-2016, 08:53 AM

Walden's been a massive disappointment, obviously. He really could've been a massive boost to the pen. He'd almost certainly be closing games for us right now.

Then again, having a guy with a history of arm issues throw 7 times in 9 days (10 times in 14) probably didn't help. He sent him out there 5 times on zero days rest in a 2 week span in April. Unsurprisingly, after the 5th occurrence, Walden broke down.

Just chalk another guy up to the Matheny Meat Grinder.

He's really, really bad at this.

DJ's left nut

07-20-2016, 09:01 AM

MLB had all of 8 guys make more than 25 appearances on back to back nights. 2 of them were Cardinals (Maness and Choate). In the span of 2 friggen weeks, Matheny did it to Walden five fucking times and then we all act surprised when Walden's arm explodes.

The guy just doesn't have any concept of how to manage a bullpen. He's going to find three guys he trusts and he's going to grind them into dirt. It happens every single season. Maness was also among the most overworked arms in baseball last year and surprise surprise, he's lost 2 mph in velocity this year. Just throw another body on the pile, I suppose.

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-20-2016, 09:52 AM

VAChief

07-20-2016, 01:37 PM

Exactly.

The alternative is rolling Wong out in CF again and watching him take massive cuts right through hittable pitches.

Diaz is an absolutely perfect #2 hitter. Piscotty and Holliday at 3/4 is pretty strong as well. I could be convinced to play Garcia at 3b and bat him leadoff but apart from that, Pham's probably the best available option.

Of course Captain Clueless puts Grichuk and his .288 OBP at leadoff. I get sometimes playing a hot hand, but let's get a little more than 7 games, before we start acting on trends.

raybec 4

07-20-2016, 06:44 PM

So yah cooked up ah story and drahped the six of us in a meat grindah!

Matheny is no Carl Weathers, he's just a dummy who had too many blows to the head. Maybe the hunting knife accident shoulda been an indicator.

Jewish Rabbi

07-20-2016, 06:55 PM

Between going to the dirt and rasin every single pitch and throwing a temper tantrum when he doesn't get calls, watching Garcia pitch makes me wish I was aborted.

bdj23

07-20-2016, 07:30 PM

Gyorko is murdering his ex team.

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-20-2016, 07:58 PM

Gyorko is murdering his ex team.

The Gyork store called and said The Fathers can fuck themselves.

Miles

07-20-2016, 08:50 PM

Might as well bunt the guy who is hot today.

bdj23

07-21-2016, 08:25 AM

The next 10 games (counting tonight because LA is facing Strasburg) will go a long way towards helping our cause. 3 against LA, 3 against the Mets and 3 the Marlins.

DJ's left nut

07-21-2016, 08:28 AM

BigRedChief

07-21-2016, 08:37 AM

Between going to the dirt and rasin every single pitch and throwing a temper tantrum when he doesn't get calls, watching Garcia pitch makes me wish I was aborted.He did much better with his mental shit on the mound last year and then the playoffs come and he melts down, Thats just who he is.

BigRedChief

07-21-2016, 08:40 AM

The Pirates have more than half their remaining games against the Brewers, Reds, Phillies and Braves.

So yeah, the Cards need to actually start playing consistent, quality baseball if they want to make the post-season because the Pirates aren't likely to just vanish and the Dodgers/Marlins/Mets are going to be tough teams to pass anyway.I'm actually hopeful that we might win a series in the playoffs now, with some luck. Waino and Martinez can give us 3 games in the 5 game series and 4 in a 7 game series. We get a homer in the correct place, ya never know.........But, thats only possible if we fix the bullpen. And don't have defensive meltdowns. Long shot for sure but the 2006/2011 teams were long shots. Get in the tournament and cross your fingers???

Prison Bitch

07-21-2016, 08:50 AM

-8 in expected wins (base runs). Next unluckiest is -5. Cards are unlucky, simple explanation.

Last year it was the opposite: Cards were luckiest at +10.

Fangraphs today chronicles how Cards are now historically unlucky:

Last year, the Cardinals out-performed their OPS differential. Ditto in 2014. Ditto in 2013. The Cardinals used to be known for their good timing. Now the tables have turned rather dramatically, and the Cardinals are fighting for a playoff spot. They’re not fighting because of a lack of roster talent. They’re fighting because their timing has sucked.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-cardinals-have-had-historically-horrible-timing/

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/ops-differential/

DJ's left nut

07-21-2016, 09:06 AM

He did much better with his mental shit on the mound last year and then the playoffs come and he melts down, Thats just who he is.

That's the same thing people said about Lynn.

Rarely is it actually mental. His issue in the playoffs last year wasn't mental; dude was sick. I guess you can chalk not telling anyone about it up to a vapor lock, but I don't blame him after how the organization handled him over the last 3 years. They tried to bury him at every turn and it wasn't until he went against their medical directives that he got himself right again.

I love watching Garcia pitch. He battles his ass off out there. The guy works at 91 mph and gets by on simple old-school movement. He doesn't throw anything that goes straight and his arsenal allows him to attack all four quadrants from the same general tunnel. He's smart with his pitches, kills plenty of worms and does a great job fielding his position. He's a throw-back to Duncan (and the guys that pre-dated him).

You don't come back from Tommy John surgery in the minors, 3 seasons wandering the wastelands and thoracic outlet surgery by being a pussy. The guy's a legit bulldog out there that isn't any more demonstrative than Carpenter was and we revered Carpenter for it.

DJ's left nut

07-21-2016, 09:10 AM

I'm actually hopeful that we might win a series in the playoffs now, with some luck. Waino and Martinez can give us 3 games in the 5 game series and 4 in a 7 game series. We get a homer in the correct place, ya never know.........But, thats only possible if we fix the bullpen. And don't have defensive meltdowns. Long shot for sure but the 2006/2011 teams were long shots. Get in the tournament and cross your fingers???

No bullpen and the guy that's the most likely help in Reyes can't throw strikes so you can't use him in high leverage situations.

If Weaver could come up and give us what Lynn did in 2011, that would be a big boost. Oh may just be able to keep the 9th, but would you really trust him with a post-season game on the line? Or 4 of them for that matter? Broxton's a gas can and I don't know how Siegrist can raise his arm above his head at this point. Maness is throwing BP these days and Rosenthal is Rosenthal.

Worse still, given the cost of relief pitching and the very long odds of us actually accomplishing anything meaningful in October, I'm damn sure not looking to pay what it would take for legitimate reinforcements.

Oh yeah, and it's still an average defensive team on its best days. What better salve for a spotty bullpen than a leaky defense?

Honestly, I still don't think they'll even make the post-season. But even if they do, I don't seem them making it out of the NLDS. Every team they might face is better than they are.

VAChief

07-21-2016, 11:55 AM

That's the same thing people said about Lynn.

Rarely is it actually mental. His issue in the playoffs last year wasn't mental; dude was sick. I guess you can chalk not telling anyone about it up to a vapor lock, but I don't blame him after how the organization handled him over the last 3 years. They tried to bury him at every turn and it wasn't until he went against their medical directives that he got himself right again.

I love watching Garcia pitch. He battles his ass off out there. The guy works at 91 mph and gets by on simple old-school movement. He doesn't throw anything that goes straight and his arsenal allows him to attack all four quadrants from the same general tunnel. He's smart with his pitches, kills plenty of worms and does a great job fielding his position. He's a throw-back to Duncan (and the guys that pre-dated him).

You don't come back from Tommy John surgery in the minors, 3 seasons wandering the wastelands and thoracic outlet surgery by being a pussy. The guy's a legit bulldog out there that isn't any more demonstrative than Carpenter was and we revered Carpenter for it.

Absolutely, I have been amazed he has been able to pitch as well as he has the last two years. What looks like mental, is most likely just the physical battle of trying to get everything in place at the right time. A mental issue example is more like Rosenthal, nothing is physically wrong, but similar to a golfer who gets the yips, he can't find the strike zone because he can't consistently repeat his approach (but not due, at least apparently from a physical issue).

You are so right about the movement, he is almost like having a good knuckle baller on your staff. I think it is important to have some diversity in your starting staff, if they all are clones it is easier for hitters to adjust day to day. Herzog used to bench Hendrick against Neikro because he felt like he was messed up for the next few days.

VAChief

07-21-2016, 12:01 PM

No bullpen and the guy that's the most likely help in Reyes can't throw strikes so you can't use him in high leverage situations.

If Weaver could come up and give us what Lynn did in 2011, that would be a big boost. Oh may just be able to keep the 9th, but would you really trust him with a post-season game on the line? Or 4 of them for that matter? Broxton's a gas can and I don't know how Siegrist can raise his arm above his head at this point. Maness is throwing BP these days and Rosenthal is Rosenthal.

Worse still, given the cost of relief pitching and the very long odds of us actually accomplishing anything meaningful in October, I'm damn sure not looking to pay what it would take for legitimate reinforcements.

Oh yeah, and it's still an average defensive team on its best days. What better salve for a spotty bullpen than a leaky defense?

Honestly, I still don't think they'll even make the post-season. But even if they do, I don't seem them making it out of the NLDS. Every team they might face is better than they are.

I'm surprised we haven't heard Weaver's name as a possibility. He projects more like an Oh, great K/BB ratio, good WHIP. Is he untouchable, no, but his history has been he isn't likely to walk himself into a hole.

Rosenthal needs to go to the minors, work as a starter and develop confidence in secondary pitches. Find even one that is off speed he can throw consistently for a strike and he likely can become a closer again, possibly dominant. Look at what Seigrist said today. He is getting more confident with his hook which has changed the way hitters (particularly lefties who were teeing off on him last year) approach him. Last year they ignored his slider and waited on the fastball. Drop a 12/6 duece first or second pitch for a strike it changes everything.

DJ's left nut

07-21-2016, 12:11 PM

I'm surprised we haven't heard Weaver's name as a possibility. He projects more like an Oh, great K/BB ratio, good WHIP. Is he untouchable, no, but his history has been he isn't likely to walk himself into a hole.

Rosenthal needs to go to the minors, work as a starter and develop confidence in secondary pitches. Find even one that is off speed he can throw consistently for a strike and he likely can become a closer again, possibly dominant. Look at what Seigrist said today. He is getting more confident with his hook which has changed the way hitters (particularly lefties who were teeing off on him last year) approach him.

Interesting thing with Weaver though is that his ceiling has likely gone up right before our very eyes.

People forget that Weaver entered his JR year as a consensus top 10 pick with an outside shot at making himself the first college pitcher drafted. Then he regressed. He lost some velocity and appeared to be guiding the ball.

Well the Cards thought they saw some stuff they could fix, worked at it last year and appear to have unleashed him on an unsuspecting world this season. Suddenly he's evidently back to working at 95 mph and touching 97. More critically, he's K rate has rocketed back up in a very hitter-friendly league.

I don't think it's fair to say he's a guy with a #3 ceiling anymore. He probably doesn't project to be a true ace, but I see no reason to say that his ceiling is any more limited than Martinez's at this point. If he's truly working in the mid-high 90s and it's not just a hot gun, there's no reason that he can't be a fringe #1, high end #2 if his development continues a bit.

The kid's still only 22 and has a nice long frame that could probably support additional weight. He appears to have unlearned whatever got him in a bit of trouble as a junior at FSU and may be the best overall prospect we have at this point.

I will concede that I mis-fired on this kid. I saw a potential back of the rotation arm who needed to develop a breaking ball and would probably keep losing velocity until he settled into a Jeff Suppan kinda career. He definitely looks to be headed the other direction.

O.city

07-21-2016, 12:20 PM

Interesting thing with Weaver though is that his ceiling has likely gone up right before our very eyes.

People forget that Weaver entered his JR year as a consensus top 10 pick with an outside shot at making himself the first college pitcher drafted. Then he regressed. He lost some velocity and appeared to be guiding the ball.

Well the Cards thought they saw some stuff they could fix, worked at it last year and appear to have unleashed him on an unsuspecting world this season. Suddenly he's evidently back to working at 95 mph and touching 97. More critically, he's K rate has rocketed back up in a very hitter-friendly league.

I don't think it's fair to say he's a guy with a #3 ceiling anymore. He probably doesn't project to be a true ace, but I see no reason to say that his ceiling is any more limited than Martinez's at this point. If he's truly working in the mid-high 90s and it's not just a hot gun, there's no reason that he can't be a fringe #1, high end #2 if his development continues a bit.

The kid's still only 22 and has a nice long frame that could probably support additional weight. He appears to have unlearned whatever got him in a bit of trouble as a junior at FSU and may be the best overall prospect we have at this point.

I will concede that I mis-fired on this kid. I saw a potential back of the rotation arm who needed to develop a breaking ball and would probably keep losing velocity until he settled into a Jeff Suppan kinda career. He definitely looks to be headed the other direction.

I always knew you didn't know your ass from your elbow. This confirms.

BigRedChief

07-21-2016, 01:16 PM

I will concede that I mis-fired on this kid.My Florida buddies accept your apology.:harumph:
may be the best overall prospect we have at this point.Better ceiling and prospect than Reyes? GTFO!

DJ's left nut

07-21-2016, 01:33 PM

My Florida buddies accept your apology.:harumph:
Better ceiling and prospect than Reyes? GTFO!

"best overall" would be a combination of ceiling and odds of reaching same, not to mention floor.

Whatever Weaver's ceiling is, I'd say his chances of hitting it are above average. Moreover, if he doesn't hit it, wouldn't you say that his floor is probably still a 4-5 starter? If his fastball's a mirage or his breaker doesn't finish developing depth/shape, then you get what Michael Wacha presently is, no?

Whereas is Reyes can't learn to !@#$ing throw strikes, what is he? Sam Tuivialala? He absolutely has to stop walking everyone and pitching from behind in the count. He's of no use to anyone right now if he can't even get basic control, let alone command in the zone.

When you look at the respective worst case scenarios as well as the fact that Weaver's development arc's been pretty steady as opposed to the jags we've seen in Reyes, there's a chance that Weaver's the better prospect on balance.

I'd need more for Reyes in trade than Weaver because I'm a sucker for upside, but if you put a 'projected WAR over the next 6 seasons' on both of them, I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the year, Weaver's is slightly better given the volatility in Reyes's projections.

DJ's left nut

07-21-2016, 01:34 PM

I always knew you didn't know your ass from your elbow. This confirms.

Damn.

The list of people I have snowed isn't terribly long to begin with. I fear it was just reduced by a third.

VAChief

07-21-2016, 02:53 PM

I don't think it's fair to say he's a guy with a #3 ceiling anymore. He probably doesn't project to be a true ace, but I see no reason to say that his ceiling is any more limited than Martinez's at this point.

He sounds a bit more polished than Martinez was at that level (of course Martinez was younger) and it has been exciting to hear that his stuff as actually been something he has improved, which if he was built like Lance Lynn you wouldn't be as surprised. The fact that his velocity returned has not surprised me as much, but that he seems to maintain it in deep into his starts. Which tells me it doesn't appear to be him just maxing out in short bursts.

I have been so impressed with Carlos the last few starts all around. He seems to be putting it all together. Poise even when he doesn't have his best stuff. The willingness and ability to get quicker outs.

That sinker he through for the strike out later in the game at 98 yesterday had utterly sick movement.

O.city

07-21-2016, 03:12 PM

Damn.

The list of people I have snowed isn't terribly long to begin with. I fear it was just reduced by a third.

I was always skeptical. But no more fence sitting

DJ's left nut

07-21-2016, 03:15 PM

He sounds a bit more polished than Martinez was at that level (of course Martinez was younger) and it has been exciting to hear that his stuff as actually been something he has improved, which if he was built like Lance Lynn you wouldn't be as surprised. The fact that his velocity returned has not surprised me as much, but that he seems to maintain it in deep into his starts. Which tells me it doesn't appear to be him just maxing out in short bursts.

I have been so impressed with Carlos the last few starts all around. He seems to be putting it all together. Poise even when he doesn't have his best stuff. The willingness and ability to get quicker outs.

That sinker he through for the strike out later in the game at 98 yesterday had utterly sick movement.

He threw the most vile pitch I've ever seen in person last year. He threw a changeup that nobody would've hit with a tennis racket.

He pitches a little across his body and from that arm slot, he just gets vile armside run even when he's working around 97 mph. Then to take that pitch, subtract 10 mph from it and give it the kind of drop he got on it (at least on that occasion) and it was just impossible. There was no way to not swing at it, no way to actually make contact with it. Your best hope would've been to have a stroke as he was delivering it and just fall down in the box, then pray that it floats out of the zone.

I don't think Weaver ever gets that kind of movement, but then again, for most guys that kind of movement comes at a cost (like I said, Carlos has to throw across his body to do it and that almost always yields an eventual breakdown). Weaver's much thinner than Lynn ever was. He actually reminds me a bit of Greinke - very long and lean but as Greinke matured, he probably added about 20 lbs. He was still on the slight side, but at least his uniform fit.

Weaver could do the same and maybe the added strength will make up for the inevitable velocity loss that comes with simply throwing pitches at this level.

DJ's left nut

07-21-2016, 03:17 PM

I was always skeptical. But no more fence sitting

Yeah, but you're gullible.

I'll have you convinced again soon enough. I'll start talking about pitch sequencing and string luck and shit like that and you'll just lap it up. Oh sure, it will be complete gibberish and be used completely out of context, but you won't know any better.

Dentists....they're like osteopaths, but somehow lazier and more credulous.

O.city

07-21-2016, 03:25 PM

Yeah, but you're gullible.

I'll have you convinced again soon enough. I'll start talking about pitch sequencing and string luck and shit like that and you'll just lap it up. Oh sure, it will be complete gibberish and be used completely out of context, but you won't know any better.

Dentists....they're like osteopaths, but somehow lazier and more credulous.

Possibly.

bdj23

07-21-2016, 03:38 PM

Can you guys dumb it down a shade?

VAChief

07-21-2016, 04:00 PM

He threw the most vile pitch I've ever seen in person last year. He threw a changeup that nobody would've hit with a tennis racket.

He pitches a little across his body and from that arm slot, he just gets vile armside run even when he's working around 97 mph. Then to take that pitch, subtract 10 mph from it and give it the kind of drop he got on it (at least on that occasion) and it was just impossible. There was no way to not swing at it, no way to actually make contact with it. Your best hope would've been to have a stroke as he was delivering it and just fall down in the box, then pray that it floats out of the zone.

I don't think Weaver ever gets that kind of movement, but then again, for most guys that kind of movement comes at a cost (like I said, Carlos has to throw across his body to do it and that almost always yields an eventual breakdown). Weaver's much thinner than Lynn ever was. He actually reminds me a bit of Greinke - very long and lean but as Greinke matured, he probably added about 20 lbs. He was still on the slight side, but at least his uniform fit.

Weaver could do the same and maybe the added strength will make up for the inevitable velocity loss that comes with simply throwing pitches at this level.

I was worried about Martinez once I saw him in person too, I just hope he has one of those gifted arms that sometimes defy what normally tears someone apart. I think for him if he puts on weight it will actually hurt him, I think he gets enough push with his legs that his whipping motion, even across his body is less stressful than someone who is not as athletic.

I wasn't clear about Weaver and Lynn, I meant that if he had a frame like Lynn it wouldn't have surprised me to see a jump in his stuff. Bigger frame guys often you expect to see their velocity tick up as they mature, but smaller, lighter guys not as much. I worried about Weaver early that he was a kid who was max effort on each pitch and he wouldn't be able to sustain it. It seems like that was a wrong assumption, which I will gladly hope continues to be so because it looks like Wacha has started to show more like his floor than the ceiling he was projecting early on. I think Wacha is now #3 ceiling. When I watched him in the 2013 NL Championship game live, I thought he was can't miss #2, and a good chance at a solid ace, even CY Young contender. It looked just that easy for him.

BigRedChief

07-21-2016, 04:16 PM

Possibly.ROFL Your random thought for the day............My wife and son are going to be at your church on Sunday.

BigRedChief

07-21-2016, 04:27 PM

I emailed my buddy who is super into amateur baseball in Florida. He said he didn't know why Weaver upped his game lately but he says his downturn in college was a coaches fault. He had a new way to throw his slider his sophomore year, worked great. His coach wanted him to throw it a different way with a different grip to get more movement and he never felt comfortable with the pitch or grip. They also wanted him to throw more curve balls when he felt he was a fastball/slider/change up guy that was having success.

Who knows if true or he even knows what he is talking about but he did say that Weaver may end up being the best pitcher in the draft that year with good coaching.

bdj23

07-21-2016, 08:37 PM

Good win

BigRedChief

07-22-2016, 07:52 AM

Good winDiaz and Piscotty are core pieces of the future. Both have the capability to hit .300. Only 11 players in the NL hit >.300 last season.

Piscotty will hit 3rd and Diaz 2nd. We need a leaf off CF and the top of the lineup is set for the next 6 years.

To see them step up and save that game.....:clap:

VAChief

07-22-2016, 10:07 AM

Diaz and Piscotty are core pieces of the future. Both have the capability to hit .300. Only 11 players in the NL hit >.300 last season.

Piscotty will hit 3rd and Diaz 2nd. We need a leaf off CF and the top of the lineup is set for the next 6 years.

To see them step up and save that game.....:clap:

Let's hope, but time always tells. Remember Craig and Freeze in 2011 and thinking the same thing. I'm not saying they are Bo Hart either, but yes it would be great if what we are seeing actually is something you can count on from year to year.

Miles

07-22-2016, 09:23 PM

Gyorko ties it up.

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-22-2016, 10:29 PM

Gyorko ties it up.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0KmTTy_MM5w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Miles

07-22-2016, 10:52 PM

Ugh more innings.

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-22-2016, 11:00 PM

Not exactly a stellar tag from Garcia. That throw beat him in plenty of time.

bdj23

07-22-2016, 11:02 PM

I'm too drunk to stay up for this.

Miles

07-22-2016, 11:04 PM

This is something I have noticed for years but for some reason Matheny's watch choices annoy me for some reason.

Miles

07-22-2016, 11:05 PM

Nice work out of trouble there by Lyons.

bdj23

07-22-2016, 11:10 PM

Remember how this scrub used to own us? We walk it off. Fuck Bud "cy" Norris

Miles

07-22-2016, 11:11 PM

Remember how this scrub used to own us? We walk it off. Fuck Bud "cy" Norris

He had a stretch of a being a pretty solid pitcher for Houston.

Also nice bloop by Garcia.

Miles

07-22-2016, 11:12 PM

Dodger announcers upset.

OnTheWarpath15

07-22-2016, 11:15 PM

I was at the game, left in the top of the 11th, had two beers at Paddy O's, drove home with a stop at Wendy's and was still home in time to catch the top of the 15th.

Win the game already, fucksticks.

Miles

07-22-2016, 11:21 PM

I was just subjected to a happy birthday singing from the Dodgers broadcast. Better fucking win now since I had to deal with them.

OnTheWarpath15

07-22-2016, 11:25 PM

Big City. Good night. God Bless. Drive safely.

Miles

07-22-2016, 11:26 PM

Fuck yeah bitches. It's over.

bdj23

07-22-2016, 11:26 PM

Reminds me of the game on this date last year against the mets. Left the game in the bottom of the 11th, walked back to my hotel, checked out, and made it almost to Columbia before the game ended.

Ps

Thank you Matt Adams

Rams Fan

07-22-2016, 11:30 PM

http://www.thecoli.com/media/dj-khaled-another-one.6093/full

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-22-2016, 11:37 PM

They ganked that win.

kcpasco

07-22-2016, 11:39 PM

Dat Bat flip

bdj23

07-22-2016, 11:41 PM

Just win baby

Rams Fan

07-22-2016, 11:46 PM

So, who starts Sunday?

BigRedChief

07-22-2016, 11:51 PM

So, who starts Sunday?
Scrub from AA?

Miles

07-23-2016, 12:17 AM

They ganked that win.

Still counts.

bdj23

07-24-2016, 06:11 PM

Why not let Alex Reyes start this game?

ChiefsCountry

07-24-2016, 06:32 PM

Mayers is pulling an Aaron Brooks.

kcpasco

07-24-2016, 06:33 PM

Anyone of our starters you just let them eat this game. But you can't let this kid take to much more of a beating.

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-24-2016, 06:36 PM

kcpasco

07-24-2016, 06:37 PM

This is the game you pitch Rosenthal for 5 innings.

eDave

07-24-2016, 06:39 PM

kcxiv

07-24-2016, 06:39 PM

I feel sick for that kid. Not anywhere on the prospect radar and they call him due to poor roster management only for him to take that kind of curb stomping in the first inning, with his entire family watching, on Sunday Night Baseball.

****, that's cruel.our 19 year old highly rated youngin had his first 2 starts againsst the Cubs in Chicago and against the Mets in New York lol. He didn't fair well either. Lol

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-24-2016, 06:42 PM

our 19 year old highly rated youngin had his first 2 starts againsst the Cubs in Chicago and against the Mets in New York lol. He didn't fair well either. Lol

Julio Urias is a future ace. This kid will probably never pitch another game in the bigs again, and he gets tossed to the wolves with a shredded pen.

kcxiv

07-24-2016, 06:47 PM

Julio Urias is a future ace. This kid will probably never pitch another game in the bigs again, and he gets tossed to the wolves with a shredded pen.

19 is 19 and everyone was bitching about starting him against he cubs in Wrigley. I get what your saying though. Sometimes youngsters get called up and get their shit. This Mayer's kid looked scared out there

bdj23

07-24-2016, 06:47 PM

Mismanagement all around.

tk13

07-24-2016, 06:57 PM

I'm a Royals fan and this is hard to watch. I feel terrible for this kid. Basically thrown to a pack of wolves and told "good luck."

ChiefsCountry

07-24-2016, 06:59 PM

I'm a Royals fan and this is hard to watch. I feel terrible for this kid. Basically thrown to a pack of wolves and told "good luck."

It's like the Aaron Brooks game in Toronto. It happens.

kcxiv

07-24-2016, 06:59 PM

I'm a Dodgers fan and this is hard to watch. Poor kid

kcpasco

07-24-2016, 07:00 PM

Hopefully that's not a total confidence destroyer.

kcpasco

07-24-2016, 07:05 PM

60.75 ERA.

KChiefs1

07-24-2016, 07:07 PM

Just saw the score...wow!

Who was the turd you guys rolled out there tonight?

Combination of Chris Young & Dillon Gee? LMAO

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bdj23

07-24-2016, 07:14 PM

Hang Rosenthal or Maness out to dry. This kid doesn't deserve this.

kcpasco

07-24-2016, 07:17 PM

Move out of the way ump. JFC

Brent Williams

07-24-2016, 07:59 PM

You know Maness hasn't had the season he wants, but this may just be what gets him going. A long outting that lets him work out the kinks. He hasnt looked that bad tonight

BigRedChief

07-24-2016, 09:09 PM

Why not let Alex Reyes start this game?Reyes needs to work on his control. He's the future, not this years help except in September callups.

We will have a new CBA next season. Reyes 6th year may be worth $50 million by then. You really want to start the clock ticking on the kid this year?

If he hits his ceiling, we wont be able to keep him beyond 6 years. Lets make sure every one of those 6 years count.

BigRedChief

07-24-2016, 09:21 PM

60.75 ERA.The Cardinals didn't think he would ever be anything with him or wouldn't have put him in that spot to start with but from a human being viewpoint, its just not right to do that to a young man with big league dreams. Twitter and social media is killing the young man.

It has to be crushing, we get to see mom and dad, grandma etc reactions at the same time on national TV.

I want to watch the agony of defeat I'd youtube old Wide World of Sports clips.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Hello, Mrs Mayers. John Mozeliak. I'm sorry about what happened to Mike tonight. How can I make it up to you all ? <a href="https://t.co/HeDMej1gwB">pic.twitter.com/HeDMej1gwB</a></p>— BBQ Bob (@CardinalTales) <a href="https://twitter.com/CardinalTales/status/757409288738312192">July 25, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

jd1020

07-25-2016, 07:40 AM

Aroldis Chapman may be on his way back to the Central wearing a Cubs uniform, and I'm about to lose my shit over what the Cubs are fucking offering.

Chiefspants

07-25-2016, 08:31 AM

Aroldis Chapman may be on his way back to the Central wearing a Cubs uniform, and I'm about to lose my shit over what the Cubs are ****ing offering.

Thank you in advance for setting the market for Wade Davis.

jd1020

07-25-2016, 08:34 AM

Thank you in advance for setting the market for Wade Davis.

It's actually just ridiculous the names being rumored in the deal.

It's essentially Castro, Torres, Warren, and 2 others for 2 months of Chapman. That is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever read. If there is no extension or someone coming with Chapman like a Acevedo or something then Theo just went full retard.

DJ's left nut

07-25-2016, 08:59 AM

Hang Rosenthal or Maness out to dry. This kid doesn't deserve this.

Why is Mozeliak getting barbecued for this?

Mayers is a 24 yr old former 3rd round pick who's put up outstanding ERAs in both AA and AAA this year (over 18 starts; so a notable sample size). He's shown exactly the kind of command that should've allowed him to go out there and eat 5-6 innings while giving up 3-4 runs.

There's no way the Cards could've known that he'd wet himself like that. We've had several kids come to the show over the last 3-4 years with lesser pedigrees than his and not allow the moment to be too big for them.

The Cards made a fine decision to call him up. Sometimes the guy they turn to just isn't up for it. Cooney's first start looked very similar last year but he was at least able to gut through a few outs. Mayers just fucking folded.

I hope he gets another shot at it, but some guys just don't show themselves capable of handling the pressure. There's no way to know that until they're thrown into the fire.

That wasn't Mozeliak's fault.

DJ's left nut

07-25-2016, 09:05 AM

It's actually just ridiculous the names being rumored in the deal.

It's essentially Castro, Torres, Warren, and 2 others for 2 months of Chapman. That is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever read. If there is no extension or someone coming with Chapman like a Acevedo or something then Theo just went full retard.

At the same time, where is Torres playing in the future? And Warren's a mopup man; guys ceiling is 5th starter - who cares? Oh, and who the hell is Castro? Are you trying to roll the Starlin trade back into this one because it netted Warren? That's just silly; that ship is sailed, the cost is sunk.

If you can improve your WS odds by, what, 10% at the cost of a blocked prospect and back of the rotation starter, why the hell wouldn't you? It's been over a century.

I guess the other 2 guys could swing it, but if they're deep minor leaguers or organizational filler (guys in the 15-20 range; likely JAGs), then who gives a shit?

jd1020

07-25-2016, 09:09 AM

At the same time, where is Torres playing in the future? And Warren's a mopup man; guys ceiling is 5th starter - who cares? Oh, and who the hell is Castro? Are you trying to roll the Starlin trade back into this one because it netted Warren? That's just silly; that ship is sailed, the cost is sunk.

If you can improve your WS odds by, what, 10% at the cost of a blocked prospect and back of the rotation starter, why the hell wouldn't you? It's been over a century.

I guess the other 2 guys could swing it, but if they're deep minor leaguers or organizational filler (guys in the 15-20 range; likely JAGs), then who gives a shit?

Either way you look at it they gave them Castro and got nothing for it if they send Warren back in the deal, making it by itself a terrible trade.

Torres alone is an overpay for a rental reliever. No other team is offering anything close to the Cubs. Rumored offers from other teams are centered around #60-70 prospects. I have no problem with trading him because he has no future with the team. But your 2018 starting rotation consists of only Lester and Hendricks. You could look to package Torres for a controllable young SP to help towards the dynasty you are building. Dumping him for a one shot deal is just ****ing stupid.

2 years ago Andrew Miller was pitching like Chapman in a walk year and that deal including a #70ish prospect as the headliner.

Theo is doubling down on stupid with this deal if its completed. He better damn well hope they win a WS this year or at the very least re-sign Chapman for a few years.

DJ's left nut

07-25-2016, 09:15 AM

Of course the Castro trade was a terrible trade. I don't think that's arguable (hell, it wasn't arguable from the moment it was made). But again, that's dead and gone. It just doesn't matter when analyzing this trade. If you included CJ Edwards in there instead, would it 'be like trading Castro' because he's similarly valuable to Warren? Of course not. The Castro trade has no bearing on this one.

I like Rondon; I think he's a hell of a pitcher. But don't tell me you aren't nervous about him in the playoffs. Hell, I just own him in a couple of fantasy leagues and it seems like the guy blows a save or takes an L every week at this point. Strop in the 8th? {shudder}

The Cubs absolutely need someone like Chapman. And if they offer the same thing everyone else is offering, well they may just get left holding nothing.

Torres is a 19 yr old in High A. The other guys being offered have lower ceilings, yes, but by and large they're all closer to the majors and have higher floors. Torres could be a stud, but as is the case with any low minor leaguer, he is just as likely to be jack shit.

The Cubs literally have more young SSs than they have places to play them. If Torres is what it takes to lock that team into playoff shape, I just don't see how you could get that upset by moving him.

This is what 'all-in' looks like. It's scary as shit sometimes but ask the Royals how it feels when it works out for you.

BigRedChief

07-25-2016, 09:19 AM

Chiefspants

07-25-2016, 09:21 AM

If you win the WS it seems to be a good deal.

There are two extremes. The 2014 A's and the 2015 Royals.

It's the definition of all-in.

jd1020

07-25-2016, 09:21 AM

If you win the WS it seems to be a good deal.

Chapman wont have a chance to win them a WS if Arrieta, Lester, and Lackey continue to shit down their legs and only give 4-5 innings a start.

ChiefsCountry

07-25-2016, 09:24 AM

Why is Mozeliak getting barbecued for this?

Mayers is a 24 yr old former 3rd round pick who's put up outstanding ERAs in both AA and AAA this year (over 18 starts; so a notable sample size). He's shown exactly the kind of command that should've allowed him to go out there and eat 5-6 innings while giving up 3-4 runs.

There's no way the Cards could've known that he'd wet himself like that. We've had several kids come to the show over the last 3-4 years with lesser pedigrees than his and not allow the moment to be too big for them.

The Cards made a fine decision to call him up. Sometimes the guy they turn to just isn't up for it. Cooney's first start looked very similar last year but he was at least able to gut through a few outs. Mayers just ****ing folded.

I hope he gets another shot at it, but some guys just don't show themselves capable of handling the pressure. There's no way to know that until they're thrown into the fire.

That wasn't Mozeliak's fault.

Voice of reason.

DJ's left nut

07-25-2016, 10:02 AM

Rams Fan

07-25-2016, 10:03 AM

Why not let Alex Reyes start this game?

Because he pitched on Thursday before the 16 inning game occurred.

jd1020

07-25-2016, 10:06 AM

Looks like Cubs deal is wrapping up.

Torres, Warren and McKinney being the names tossed about right now. McKinney is...uh....not filler. I guess his struggles at AA have really soured the Cubs on him.

Guess we know who Theo's pimp daddy is.

There has to be an extension involved. It's too ridiculous to not have one.

DJ's left nut

07-25-2016, 10:09 AM

Guess we know who Theo's pimp daddy is.

As a fan of a team that won 100 games last year with a closing window who went after Brandon !@#$ing Moss as the 'fix' for a flagging offense, I respect what Theo's doing here.

It's not necessarily how I'd go about it; the playoffs are largely luck and the best way to win a championship is to keep going back. That said, it's defensible and when a guy has the track record Theo does, you have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

If the Cubs weren't already clear favorites, this sure seems to put them back in that chair and at absolutely zero cost to them over the next 3 years (probably not much cost over 5 given their logjam in the OF).

DJ's left nut

07-25-2016, 10:59 AM

4th player is Rashad Crawford.

Now THERE'S your JAG. 22 yr old 11th round pick that's struggling in A+ right now.

jd1020

07-25-2016, 11:01 AM

Sounds like Chapman is not interested in any kind of talks of an extension either. That's the main reason he was even available. I fucking hate this trade. Complete disaster if it doesn't involve a ring 3 months from now.

Pasta Little Brioni

07-25-2016, 11:59 AM

You'll get it.

Hoover

07-25-2016, 12:00 PM

It's a lot to spend for a rental, but the Cubs needed him, and plus it keeps him away from the Giants and Nationals.

I'm pretty sure after spending time as a Red and the Yankees, he will love Chicago and Maddon.

ChiefsCountry

07-25-2016, 12:58 PM

You'll get it.

Unless you are Dane and think the turds the Royals gave up for Cueto are more valuable than the World Series ring.

Rams Fan

07-25-2016, 01:21 PM

Jerome Williams called up with Mayers being sent down.

If the game in NY gets postponed, I'd bet $1 in casino cash that Williams would start in a double header tomorrow since he last pitched on the 20th.

KChiefs1

07-25-2016, 01:28 PM

Why don't the Cards let Reyes pitch one of these games? I'm excited about seeing this kid.

Rams Fan

07-25-2016, 01:33 PM

Why don't the Cards let Reyes pitch one of these games? I'm excited about seeing this kid.

Because he's not ready just yet. He has a BB/9 of 4.5.

I'd like to see Weaver up in the majors before Reyes. I think he's more ready than Reyes is, but he hasn't pitched in AAA yet.

DJ's left nut

07-25-2016, 01:55 PM

Why don't the Cards let Reyes pitch one of these games? I'm excited about seeing this kid.

Because they'd start his clock in a lost season and simply throwing him to the wolves because he throws hard is silly.

Oh, and the guy also lost half a season of development because he wouldn't stop smoking pot. It's a big part of why he's still not capable of throwing strikes.

So why reward the kid who's clearly not big league ready (at least in part due his poor decisionmaking) with a call-up that other players have done far more to earn?

Mayers has busted his ass to return from thoracic outlet surgery and has out-performed Reyes at every stop this year. He earned the call. Reyes has not. Reyes has smoked himself out of 50 games and set about throwing gas like he's Nuke LaLoosh out there so he's throwing 4-5 innings/start and largely getting his ass kicked. Leave him in AAA until he learns something.

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-25-2016, 02:27 PM

Because they'd start his clock in a lost season and simply throwing him to the wolves because he throws hard is silly.

Oh, and the guy also lost half a season of development because he wouldn't stop smoking pot. It's a big part of why he's still not capable of throwing strikes.

So why reward the kid who's clearly not big league ready (at least in part due his poor decisionmaking) with a call-up that other players have done far more to earn?

Mayers has busted his ass to return from thoracic outlet surgery and has out-performed Reyes at every stop this year. He earned the call. Reyes has not. Reyes has smoked himself out of 50 games and set about throwing gas like he's Nuke LaLoosh out there so he's throwing 4-5 innings/start and largely getting his ass kicked. Leave him in AAA until he learns something.

Let's not get it twisted here. Reyes definitely did something stupid, but he also posted a better FIP than Mayers in AAA this year despite all those walks, and was better than him in AA last year.

He hasn't come close to outperforming Reyes. He was just the sacrificial lamb who had an option year to waste.

Rams Fan

07-25-2016, 02:30 PM

O.city

07-25-2016, 02:48 PM

So, with reyes being all that dj is saying, I'm thinking it's time to sell high and get something for him.

DJ's left nut

07-25-2016, 02:58 PM

Let's not get it twisted here. Reyes definitely did something stupid, but he also posted a better FIP than Mayers in AAA this year despite all those walks, and was better than him in AA last year.

He hasn't come close to outperforming Reyes. He was just the sacrificial lamb who had an option year to waste.

And? Mayers has actually shown development. Reyes continues to refuse to attack hitters and instead just goes along throwing hard and out of the zone in the hopes that they keep swinging. All those strikeouts look great when you're looking at FIP but they don't matter for shit if you're throwing 25 pitches/inning.

FIP is a component, but that's not the component that Reyes needed to work on. He needed to work on pitch efficiency, command and simply being smarter with how he approaches hitters. He's not doing any of that. FIP falls into his wheelhouse because it loves Ks but it's also failing to punish him at all for being inefficient and that's his biggest problem.

Yes, Mayers has outperformed Reyes. Going out there and getting yanked prior to the 6th inning 2 out of every 3 starts isn't doing anybody any good, FIP be damned. There's still more to baseball than just trying to throw the ball past guys and when you enter a season with issues with efficiency and fail to do anything to address that issue, your performance for that year isn't worthy of callup consideration.

So, with reyes being all that dj is saying, I'm thinking it's time to sell high and get something for him.

That's a bridge too far. Kid's still 21 and has plenty of time left. But this season needs to be a wakeup call for him. He needs to learn how to be a pitcher instead of a thrower and until he's anywhere near that, he needs to keep his heels cool in AAA.

O.city

07-25-2016, 03:17 PM

And? Mayers has actually shown development. Reyes continues to refuse to attack hitters and instead just goes along throwing hard and out of the zone in the hopes that they keep swinging. All those strikeouts look great when you're looking at FIP but they don't matter for shit if you're throwing 25 pitches/inning.

FIP is a component, but that's not the component that Reyes needed to work on. He needed to work on pitch efficiency, command and simply being smarter with how he approaches hitters. He's not doing any of that. FIP falls into his wheelhouse because it loves Ks but it's also failing to punish him at all for being inefficient and that's his biggest problem.

Yes, Mayers has outperformed Reyes. Going out there and getting yanked prior to the 6th inning 2 out of every 3 starts isn't doing anybody any good, FIP be damned. There's still more to baseball than just trying to throw the ball past guys and when you enter a season with issues with efficiency and fail to do anything to address that issue, your performance for that year isn't worthy of callup consideration.

That's a bridge too far. Kid's still 21 and has plenty of time left. But this season needs to be a wakeup call for him. He needs to learn how to be a pitcher instead of a thrower and until he's anywhere near that, he needs to keep his heels cool in AAA.

If he could be packaged and moved for an everyday legitimate center fielder, I'd listen.

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-25-2016, 03:37 PM

And? Mayers has actually shown development. Reyes continues to refuse to attack hitters and instead just goes along throwing hard and out of the zone in the hopes that they keep swinging. All those strikeouts look great when you're looking at FIP but they don't matter for shit if you're throwing 25 pitches/inning.

FIP is a component, but that's not the component that Reyes needed to work on. He needed to work on pitch efficiency, command and simply being smarter with how he approaches hitters. He's not doing any of that. FIP falls into his wheelhouse because it loves Ks but it's also failing to punish him at all for being inefficient and that's his biggest problem.

Yes, Mayers has outperformed Reyes. Going out there and getting yanked prior to the 6th inning 2 out of every 3 starts isn't doing anybody any good, FIP be damned. There's still more to baseball than just trying to throw the ball past guys and when you enter a season with issues with efficiency and fail to do anything to address that issue, your performance for that year isn't worthy of callup consideration.

That's a bridge too far. Kid's still 21 and has plenty of time left. But this season needs to be a wakeup call for him. He needs to learn how to be a pitcher instead of a thrower and until he's anywhere near that, he needs to keep his heels cool in AAA.

If Mayers is going out there and pitching to his actual peripherals instead of skating by on batted ball luck like 2015 Chris Young, you're not making this argument.

DJ's left nut

07-25-2016, 03:43 PM

If Mayers is going out there and pitching to his actual peripherals instead of skating by on batted ball luck like 2015 Chris Young, you're not making this argument.

I'd argue that Weaver should've been brought up at that point.

Reyes hasn't earned his way onto the roster and he's done less to prove that he's a viable rotation candidate than Mayers has right this very minute. He simply cannot get through innings.

DJ's left nut

07-25-2016, 03:44 PM

If he could be packaged and moved for an everyday legitimate center fielder, I'd listen.

Name one.

You really excited to move him for Odubel Herrera?

Jim Edmonds isn't walkin' through that door...

Rams Fan

07-25-2016, 03:56 PM

I'd argue that Weaver should've been brought up at that point.

Reyes hasn't earned his way onto the roster and he's done less to prove that he's a viable rotation candidate than Mayers has right this very minute. He simply cannot get through innings.

As I said earlier, Weaver should be getting the call before Reyes does, but I think he needs to pitch in Memphis for a bit before jumping from Springfield to STL.

O.city

07-25-2016, 04:15 PM

Name one.

You really excited to move him for Odubel Herrera?

Jim Edmonds isn't walkin' through that door...

I was thinking maybe one of the Rangers young outfielders that aren't up yet?

Maybe Buxton?

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-25-2016, 04:20 PM

I'd argue that Weaver should've been brought up at that point.

Reyes hasn't earned his way onto the roster and he's done less to prove that he's a viable rotation candidate than Mayers has right this very minute. He simply cannot get through innings.

I don't think they should have brought up either. My point was that Mayers hasn't outplayed Reyes; he's outlucked him.

BigRedChief

07-25-2016, 04:21 PM

I was thinking maybe one of the Rangers young outfielders that aren't up yet?

Maybe Buxton?
Trade 6 years of control of a pitcher with a potential Cy Young ceiling? There is no way we are getting that value in a trade.

BigRedChief

07-26-2016, 02:34 PM

Rosenthal to the DL. Right shoulder inflammation.

Jewish Rabbi

07-26-2016, 02:49 PM

Rosenthal to the DL. Right shoulder inflammation.

More like right labia inflammation.

Already talks of bringing him back as a starter?

DJ's left nut

07-26-2016, 02:59 PM

I don't think they should have brought up either. My point was that Mayers hasn't outplayed Reyes; he's outlucked him.

Luck is where preparation meets opportunity...blah blah blah.

I don't tend to believe it, but Mayers actually forced batters to work for it. Had Reyes done a damn thing to get guys to actually swing, maybe he'd have more success.

Guys like Dave Bush and Ricky Nolasco were always SABR darlings because their advanced metrics always said they should be better than they were. But when you watched them pitch, you realized that they got those peripherals in ways that were dooming them to fail. They were nibbling constantly and if they got lucky, guys would strike out swinging at slop. If they didn't swing at slop, rather than challenge earlier in the count, they'd just end up in hitters counts and throw a meatball rather than give up the BB; that meatball would promptly go very far.

In a world where Jason Heyward is still on pace to put up a 2.5 WAR season (better than what Allen Craig managed in '12 and '13 when he was a critical component to one of the better offenses in baseball), I'm not simply going to defer to every advanced metric.

Reyes is continuing to do things that look good on metrics but won't actually help you win ballgames. He's not the first to snow the advanced metrics and until he learns to stop falling behind guys, he's not going to succeed.

Even if Mayers was going out there and pitching to a 4.00 ERA but actually getting himself to 6+ innings most starts, I'd have called him up before Reyes. Reyes simply isn't a big leaguer right now.

DJ's left nut

07-26-2016, 04:02 PM

Gyorko just smoked a ball that could've been a triple....EXCEPT that Matt Adams managed to get thrown out at home.

Fuck me that guy is bad. Good thing he got himself in the best shape of his life this off-season, eh? I'm surprised he didn't just start walking back to the dugout after he rounded third or call for a pinch runner like it was slow-pitch.

I !@#$ing hate that guy.

Pasta Little Brioni

07-26-2016, 06:05 PM

Goin for the sweep of the Muts

BigRedChief

07-26-2016, 07:06 PM

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Reyes is out of the game after 3 innings. No explanation yet, Threw 57 pitches, Did bat and got single in bottom of 3rd. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash">#STLCards</a></p>— Rob Rains (@RobRains) <a href="https://twitter.com/RobRains/status/758104974056235008">July 27, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<script async="" src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><iframe style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; display: none; width: 0px; height: 0px; padding: 0px; border: medium none;" allowfullscreen="true" allowtransparency="true" scrolling="no" id="rufous-sandbox" frameborder="0"></iframe><iframe style="position: absolute; visibility: hidden; display: none; width: 0px; height: 0px; padding: 0px; border: medium none;" allowfullscreen="true" allowtransparency="true" scrolling="no" id="rufous-sandbox" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Pasta Little Brioni

07-26-2016, 07:10 PM

Gyorkod it

raybec 4

07-26-2016, 07:22 PM

Trade 6 years of control of a pitcher with a potential Cy Young ceiling? There is no way we are getting that value in a trade.

C'mon Red, you keep spitting Cy Young ceiling about Reyes and Martinez. That's a little far fetched for both.

BigRedChief

07-26-2016, 07:31 PM

C'mon Red, you keep spitting Cy Young ceiling about Reyes and Martinez. That's a little far fetched for both.Its a possible ceiling. Maybe a small% but not many pitchers have even that small% chance at that ceiling. Martinez has already made an All-Star team.

Its just my opinion. I'm no stat nerd/geek like DJ or Hamas. So. I could be totally wrong.

O.city

07-26-2016, 08:49 PM

Tinstaapp.

I'm all about cost controlled pitching, but if they could move him for an everyday player for the next 6 years, I'm all for it.

BigRedChief

07-26-2016, 10:01 PM

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Reyes pulled from Class AAA start to be available, if needed, for MLB debut <a href="https://t.co/sFvI7sVqzN">https://t.co/sFvI7sVqzN</a> <a href="https://t.co/A07KFci40R">pic.twitter.com/A07KFci40R</a></p>— STL Cardinals News (@STLCardsNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/STLCardsNews/status/758141255427600384">July 27, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-26-2016, 10:12 PM

Luck is where preparation meets opportunity...blah blah blah.

I don't tend to believe it, but Mayers actually forced batters to work for it. Had Reyes done a damn thing to get guys to actually swing, maybe he'd have more success.

Guys like Dave Bush and Ricky Nolasco were always SABR darlings because their advanced metrics always said they should be better than they were. But when you watched them pitch, you realized that they got those peripherals in ways that were dooming them to fail. They were nibbling constantly and if they got lucky, guys would strike out swinging at slop. If they didn't swing at slop, rather than challenge earlier in the count, they'd just end up in hitters counts and throw a meatball rather than give up the BB; that meatball would promptly go very far.

In a world where Jason Heyward is still on pace to put up a 2.5 WAR season (better than what Allen Craig managed in '12 and '13 when he was a critical component to one of the better offenses in baseball), I'm not simply going to defer to every advanced metric.

Reyes is continuing to do things that look good on metrics but won't actually help you win ballgames. He's not the first to snow the advanced metrics and until he learns to stop falling behind guys, he's not going to succeed.

Even if Mayers was going out there and pitching to a 4.00 ERA but actually getting himself to 6+ innings most starts, I'd have called him up before Reyes. Reyes simply isn't a big leaguer right now.

You're right that SABR is not the end-all, be-all. However, given Mayers' actual peripherals, you have to consider that when the regression kicks in, he's not even going to be going deep enough into the game, either. Neither one can give you six. He's not really capable of consistently going long enough, either; he's just skating by on fortune.

Yes, Reyes needs to work on polish and attack hitters, but Mayers simply doesn't have the stuff to do anything. That's why you sign a guy like Jerome Williams.

KChiefs1

07-26-2016, 10:17 PM

Mi_chief_fan

07-27-2016, 07:35 PM

After this loss tonight.......I think they should sell.

kcpasco

07-27-2016, 07:44 PM

After this loss tonight.......I think they should sell.

90 percent of the problem is the dumb ass manager, maybe they could sell him.

Jewish Rabbi

07-27-2016, 08:03 PM

After this loss tonight.......I think they should sell.

Lol

Miles

07-27-2016, 08:21 PM

Nice comeback against a tough closer.

ChiefsCountry

07-27-2016, 08:52 PM

Familia blows against the Missouri teams.

BigRedChief

07-28-2016, 12:48 AM

After this loss tonight.......I think they should sell.

Whoops.:rolleyes:

Mi_chief_fan

07-28-2016, 06:52 AM

it was my reverse psychology. 😉 Still think they should sell. But my money is on Mo picking up a set-up man & calling it good.

BigRedChief

07-28-2016, 10:43 AM

it was my reverse psychology. 😉 Still think they should sell. But my money is on Mo picking up a set-up man & calling it good.Set up men at the trade deadline can cost you a #1 pick. They are expensive. In the off season they are a dime a dozen.

Jewish Rabbi

07-28-2016, 03:08 PM

it was my reverse psychology. 😉 Still think they should sell. But my money is on Mo picking up a set-up man & calling it good.

Mo would rightfully get run out of town if you sell when you're one game back in the Wild Card. This isn't the best season we've seen, but it also isn't the disaster some would have you believe.

Jewish Rabbi

07-28-2016, 03:18 PM

I also just read Lynn could be ready to go by September. He could be a decent addition to the bullpen, if healthy.

bdj23

07-28-2016, 03:21 PM

Looks like the Cardinals will be on Sunday night baseball August 14th.

Definitely gonna have to go to that game as well. Aren't night games at Wrigley kind of rare?

Jewish Rabbi

07-28-2016, 03:23 PM

Looks like the Cardinals will be on Sunday night baseball August 14th.

Definitely gonna have to go to that game as well. Aren't night games at Wrigley kind of rare?

They are only allotted a certain number per year, but I think they worked out more with the neighborhood association as part of the renovation.

BigRedChief

07-28-2016, 03:44 PM

Mo would rightfully get run out of town if you sell when you're one game back in the Wild Card. This isn't the best season we've seen, but it also isn't the disaster some would have you believe.No they dont have to sell but they dont need to give up pieces of the future for a better chance in the playoffs this year.

We throw Waino or Martinez in the wildcard. We get a home run or two. We are in the NLDS. We get our asses handed to us by the Cubs again. That would be expected. No one is going to be upset.

We give up one of our #7-10 prospects for some 6th inning reliever guy, I think people would be pissed.They are still upset about the Moss trade.

DJ's left nut

07-28-2016, 03:50 PM

No they dont have to sell but they dont need to give up pieces of the future for a better chance in the playoffs this year.

We throw Waino or Martinez in the wildcard. We get a home run or two. We are in the NLDS. We get our asses handed to us by the Cubs again. That would be expected. No one is going to be upset.

We give up one of our #7-10 prospects for some 6th inning reliever guy, I think people would be pissed.They are still upset about the Moss trade.

More correctly, people are upset about Moe's recent tendency to continue giving up solid pieces for JAGs rather than actually get something worthwhile back. The Moss trade was simply the most glaring recent example and came at a time when the team had an obvious problem that it failed to address.

With what they gave up to get Justin Masterson, Jonathan Broxton and Brandon Moss over the last 2 years, they could've added to it just a bit to get Cespedes and actually had someone on the roster that would've mattered last year.

Though at this point you're absolutely right - I'd prefer he just sit it out.

I'm not opposed to aggressive moves; I applauded the Holliday trade and the Heyward trade. I'm opposed to half-measures and/or a failure to recognize where your team is situated.

Jewish Rabbi

07-28-2016, 03:59 PM

More correctly, people are upset about Moe's recent tendency to continue giving up solid pieces for JAGs rather than actually get something worthwhile back. The Moss trade was simply the most glaring recent example and came at a time when the team had an obvious problem that it failed to address.

With what they gave up to get Justin Masterson, Jonathan Broxton and Brandon Moss over the last 2 years, they could've added to it just a bit to get Cespedes and actually had someone on the roster that would've mattered last year.

Though at this point you're absolutely right - I'd prefer he just sit it out.

I'm not opposed to aggressive moves; I applauded the Holliday trade and the Heyward trade. I'm opposed to half-measures and/or a failure to recognize where your team is situated.

I completely agree. No need to sell out to try to make a playoff push. But the idea that we should be sellers is laughable, even if we lose these first two games to Miami.

O.city

07-28-2016, 04:15 PM

If someone came calling for a piece and you could get a haul for it, I wouldn't immediately dismiss it.

DJ's left nut

07-28-2016, 04:23 PM

If someone came calling for a piece and you could get a haul for it, I wouldn't immediately dismiss it.

Garcia is a perfect fit for Texas and their system makes them a great trade partner.

With Lynn coming back next year and Reyes/Weaver knocking on the door (let alone Lyons and Cooney), Garcia's movable and there are teams that would give a quality piece for a lefty who's shown knockout stuff and has a year of team control left.

It would be absurd not to sell if anything appreciable could be had. This isn't a championship caliber team.

BigRedChief

07-28-2016, 04:24 PM

I completely agree. No need to sell out to try to make a playoff push. But the idea that we should be sellers is laughable, even if we lose these first two games to Miami.Get in the playoffs and you never know.

We beat arguably the best closer in the game last night. Had saved 52 straight games without a blown one or loss and it was fucking Wong with the deciding hit. Who saw that coming?

bdj23

07-28-2016, 05:33 PM

That was a weird sequence of events.

Looked like a balk to me.

Hope that doesn't bite us in the ass today.

Mi_chief_fan

07-29-2016, 12:21 PM

Set up men at the trade deadline can cost you a #1 pick. They are expensive. In the off season they are a dime a dozen.

Unfortunately, it's necessary now. IMO-standing pat is worse than selling. This team simply isn't good enough to win in the playoffs as they're currently constructed.

Rams Fan

07-29-2016, 12:26 PM

Well the Cardinals forum I posted at is going offline for good on the 3rd.

Fuck posting at STLToday.

BigRedChief

07-29-2016, 12:34 PM

Well the Cardinals forum I posted at is going offline for good on the 3rd.

Fuck posting at STLToday.yeah there are just no good forums out there to talk Cardinals.

BigRedChief

07-29-2016, 12:37 PM

That was a weird sequence of events.

Looked like a balk to me.

Hope that doesn't bite us in the ass today.that was a balk. The crew chief overruled his umpire. After the game admitted he was wrong.

On the positive side, We have won 3-4 on the road against possible playoff teams.

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-29-2016, 09:30 PM

They've been playing pretty well lately, but I don't know about starting Garcia on three days rest.

Jewish Rabbi

07-29-2016, 09:49 PM

They've been playing pretty well lately, but I don't know about starting Garcia on three days rest.

Me either. He'll either go full pussy and last 3 innings or throw a gem.

BigRedChief

07-29-2016, 10:00 PM

They've been playing pretty well lately, but I don't know about starting Garcia on three days rest.11-5 since the All-Star break. 4/5 on the road against possible playoff teams. Thats probably the best run they have had all year.

Lyons will have to pitch multiple innings tomorrow. They went through all the scrubs tonight. Tomorrow it will have to be our better pitchers out of the pen even if it is a blow out.

We will see Reyes on Sunday. Does that mean his clock starts and counts to the end of the year even if he is sent back down after the start?

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-29-2016, 10:08 PM

11-5 since the All-Star break. 4/5 on the road against possible playoff teams. Thats probably the best run they have had all year.

Lyons will have to pitch multiple innings tomorrow. They went through all the scrubs tonight. Tomorrow it will have to be our better pitchers out of the pen even if it is a blow out.

We will see Reyes on Sunday. Does that mean his clock starts and counts to the end of the year even if he is sent back down after the start?

Reyes' clock only ticks as long as he's up here. It would, however, count as an option year.

If Lyons is going to pitch several innings you're better off just having him start the game and seeing how far he can go. From there you can transition to Williams, who can also work several innings. Then it's your bridge to late in the game.

Then start Garcia on normal rest on Sunday.

This idea makes no sense to me.

Jewish Rabbi

07-29-2016, 10:16 PM

BigRedChief

07-29-2016, 10:40 PM

Where have you seen Reyes will be coming up on Sunday?The papers in Memphis said it was the reason they were given when asked why he was pulled. Not that he is defintely coming up but for insurance in case they use Lyons. I got the link to the articles from Twitter.

BigRedChief

07-29-2016, 10:41 PM

Reyes' clock only ticks as long as he's up here. It would, however, count as an option year.So he throws one game and we lose a whole year of control? That sounds really stupid.

Miles

07-29-2016, 10:46 PM

Reyes' clock only ticks as long as he's up here. It would, however, count as an option year.

If Lyons is going to pitch several innings you're better off just having him start the game and seeing how far he can go. From there you can transition to Williams, who can also work several innings. Then it's your bridge to late in the game.

Then start Garcia on normal rest on Sunday.

This idea makes no sense to me.

That approach seems far more reasonable.

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-29-2016, 11:05 PM

So he throws one game and we lose a whole year of control? That sounds really stupid.

EDIT: My initial explanation was incorrect.

You get three option years while a team still has your initial rights.

Putting a player on the 40 man roster counts as an option year in and of itself. So this is Reyes' first option year.

What this means:

Say Reyes gets called up after spending time in the minors next year. That's his second option year. Then it happens in 2018. That's his third. Say 2019 roles around and they consider sending him down again (nightmare scenario). If that happened, they would have to place him through waivers first, because he would have exhausted those three previous option years.

No, they don't lose a year of control, it just affects the number of years they could send him down to the minors while still retaining his rights. If he isn't a big disappointment, it shouldn't be a problem, but there is a cost attached to having someone on the 40 man.

If he's up one day then he only has one day of service time. Service time is all that matters for Super Two and FA status for guys you normally care about keeping.

There are some players who can rarely qualify for a fourth year option, but it wouldn't be relevant here.

Jewish Rabbi

07-30-2016, 07:54 AM

The papers in Memphis said it was the reason they were given when asked why he was pulled. Not that he is defintely coming up but for insurance in case they use Lyons. I got the link to the articles from Twitter.

Yes I had seen that. But since they decided to start Jaime tonight my impression was they weren't calling up Reyes.

BigRedChief

07-30-2016, 09:39 AM

EDIT: My initial explanation was incorrect.

You get three option years while a team still has your initial rights.

Putting a player on the 40 man roster counts as an option year in and of itself. So this is Reyes' first option year.

What this means:

Say Reyes gets called up after spending time in the minors next year. That's his second option year. Then it happens in 2018. That's his third. Say 2019 roles around and they consider sending him down again (nightmare scenario). If that happened, they would have to place him through waivers first, because he would have exhausted those three previous option years.

No, they don't lose a year of control, it just affects the number of years they could send him down to the minors while still retaining his rights. If he isn't a big disappointment, it shouldn't be a problem, but there is a cost attached to having someone on the 40 man.Whew.....
Yeah if he is getting yanked up and down in the minors for 3 years then he wasn't the possible #1 pitcher we need so his years of control are not that valuable or calling him up that impactful.

jd1020

07-30-2016, 10:00 AM

Whew.....
Yeah if he is getting yanked up and down in the minors for 3 years then he wasn't the possible #1 pitcher we need so his years of control are not that valuable or calling him up that impactful.

He'll just be moved to the bullpen permanently.

Jewish Rabbi

07-30-2016, 05:29 PM

Good call starting the mentally fragile piece of shit on short rest and taking him out of his precious routine, Matheny.

Brent Williams

07-30-2016, 05:29 PM

I just want to kick Matheny right in the nuts. Garcia looks so out of wack it's not even funny and now Lyons is up in the bullpen. He should've started to begin with if you weren't going to bring up Reyes.

BigRedChief

07-30-2016, 07:44 PM

Good call starting the mentally fragile piece of shit on short rest and taking him out of his precious routine, Matheny.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If hindsight is 20-20, foresight must be 20-15.</p>— viva el birdos (@vivaelbirdos) <a href="https://twitter.com/vivaelbirdos/status/759564064615964673">July 31, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

BigRedChief

07-30-2016, 08:01 PM

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Cardinals front office and manager have now botched two games in a week due to mishandling the sixth starter.</p>— viva el birdos (@vivaelbirdos) <a href="https://twitter.com/vivaelbirdos/status/759568872685072384">July 31, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-30-2016, 08:37 PM

No one could have seen this coming.

BigRedChief

07-30-2016, 09:30 PM

No one could have seen this coming.http://www.lolpix.com/_pics/Funny_Pictures_472/Funny_Pictures_47214.jpg

Brent Williams

07-31-2016, 09:27 AM

Just traded Charlie Tilson to the White Sox for lefty Zach Duke

BigRedChief

07-31-2016, 09:30 AM

Just traded Charlie Tilson to the White Sox for lefty Zach DukeI don't think Tilson would have been an impact player with us. We get another year of the guy out of the deal.

Duke, 33, went 2-0 with a 2.63 ERA, one save, 20 holds and 42 strikeouts over 53 relief appearances this season, his second with the White Sox. He is in the second year of a three-year, $15 million contract, which includes $5.5 million in 2017.

Brent Williams

07-31-2016, 09:44 AM

I don't think Tilson would have been an impact player with us. We get another year of the guy out of the deal.

Duke, 33, went 2-0 with a 2.63 ERA, one save, 20 holds and 42 strikeouts over 53 relief appearances this season, his second with the White Sox. He is in the second year of a three-year, $15 million contract, which includes $5.5 million in 2017.

Yea, I dont have a problem with it. With the fast rise of Harrison B. it made Tilson expendable. This will left Harrison play more center in the minors instead of a corner spot. My only thing is who goes down when Duke arrives, and you also have Carp,Johnny, and Moss coming back?

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-31-2016, 09:59 AM

Tilson has a skill set that is largely absent from the major league roster and he's still really young (23). He is probably not going to be much more than a 4th/5th OF/pinch runner though, but if he adds power (unlikely at this point), he could be a 15/30 guy.

It's a calculated risk from a position of strength. Probably a good move.

Marco Polo

07-31-2016, 10:51 AM

I like the trade.

Pasta Little Brioni

07-31-2016, 11:28 AM

Dohyers lookin to deal that turd Puig

kcpasco

07-31-2016, 01:54 PM

Sigh, Hazelbaker needs to either call for that ball or let Pham have a clean look to make that catch.

bdj23

07-31-2016, 01:55 PM

God damn it, Hazelbaker. You gotta catch that ball.

kcpasco

07-31-2016, 02:01 PM

Just rewatched and Pham called him off so I'll give Hazelbaker a break on that. Dumb ass Pham gotta let Hazelbaker make that catch.

Pasta Little Brioni

07-31-2016, 02:03 PM

Lulz what a way to lose...keep at it. Pham fucking blows.

BigRedChief

07-31-2016, 02:27 PM

Sigh, Hazelbaker needs to either call for that ball or let Pham have a clean look to make that catch.
Defense cost us another game. That ball was catchable and should have been caught.

kcpasco

07-31-2016, 03:13 PM

Defense cost us another game. That ball was catchable and should have been caught.

If the Cards come up short of the playoffs this year, it will be because of horrible defense and really bad bullpen management.

BigRedChief

07-31-2016, 04:40 PM

Just rewatched and Pham called him off so I'll give Hazelbaker a break on that. Dumb ass Pham gotta let Hazelbaker make that catch.Yep, its clear that was Pham's fuck up. Pham called for it and called him off.

'Hamas' Jenkins

07-31-2016, 05:00 PM

Pham is an incredibly stupid OF'er. He's going to get someone killed out there.

bdj23

07-31-2016, 07:33 PM

Yep, its clear that was Pham's **** up. Pham called for it and called him off.

I know Pham called him off, but it should have beem Hazelbakers ball all the way. I wasn't trying to blame Jeremy fo4r not catching it.

Brent Williams

08-01-2016, 05:58 PM

Diaz has a hairline fracture in this thumb. Going on 15 day dl but will be out longer then that. Derrick Gould reported it

jd1020

08-01-2016, 06:00 PM

Diaz has a hairline fracture in this thumb. Going on 15 day dl but will be out longer then that. Derrick Gould reported it

Time to go kick the tires on Puig after he clears waivers.

BigRedChief

08-01-2016, 06:31 PM

Time to go kick the tires on Puig after he clears waivers.you think Maddon can handle him? What are doing with Heyward?

BigRedChief

08-01-2016, 06:32 PM

Diaz has a hairline fracture in this thumb. Going on 15 day dl but will be out longer then that. Derrick Gould reported itIt will be longer than 2 weeks thats for sure.

'Hamas' Jenkins

08-01-2016, 06:34 PM

Time to go kick the tires on Puig after he clears waivers.

Please, God, do that.

jd1020

08-01-2016, 06:35 PM

you think Maddon can handle him? What are doing with Heyward?

I'm talking about the Cardinals. There's no room for him on the Cubs.

He's a head case, but he's talented and his contract isn't anything ridiculous. He'd be worth kicking the tires on for teams with a spot for him, imo.

'Hamas' Jenkins

08-01-2016, 06:38 PM

Puig is Stage IV pancreatic cancer.

BigRedChief

08-01-2016, 07:39 PM

I'm talking about the Cardinals. There's no room for him on the Cubs.

He's a head case, but he's talented and his contract isn't anything ridiculous. He'd be worth kicking the tires on for teams with a spot for him, imo.are you kidding? Puig is as far from being a "Cardinal" type player as anyone in baseball. Molina and Waino wouldn't tolerate his shit for a single day.

jd1020

08-01-2016, 07:40 PM

Puig is Stage IV pancreatic cancer.

You don't think that he could be healed by the hand of God in Matheny's bible study group?

Pasta Little Brioni

08-01-2016, 10:06 PM

Heyward AND Pig??ROFL ROFL ROFL

BigRedChief

08-01-2016, 10:28 PM

You don't think that he could be healed by the hand of God in Matheny's bible study group?
I read a blog that said the bible study group was no longer taking place in the Cardinal clubhouse.

Swanman

08-02-2016, 09:06 AM

are you kidding? Puig is as far from being a "Cardinal" type player as anyone in baseball. Molina and Waino wouldn't tolerate his shit for a single day.

Maybe he just needs to be bitchslapped around by a couple veterans. The guy does have freakish physical ability.

DJ's left nut

08-02-2016, 09:16 AM

are you kidding? Puig is as far from being a "Cardinal" type player as anyone in baseball. Molina and Waino wouldn't tolerate his shit for a single day.

That's kinda the point.

The Cardinals need a right-handed run producer. Yasiel Puig has the ability to fill that role and then some. The Cardinals could also use a little bit of energy and attitude.

They don't need to be the Dodgers, mind you, but your statement is accurate and exactly why the Cardinals should take a chance on him. Molina and Waino won't tolerate his shit, no. And that exactly why he might work; it's exactly what he needs to perhaps capitalize on the talent you know he has.

If you're the D-Rays or the Twins and have a clubhouse full of impressionable kids, you don't bring on Puig. But if you have an established clubhouse full of guys that have gone through the wars together and have been to the top of the mountain (knocking Puig off on the way), then precisely what are you worried about?

If Yasiel Puig can come into this clubhouse and 'infect' it, then the clubhouse was shit to begin with.

Mike Matheny can't do a goddamn thing to actually help this team win ballgames between the white lines. He's an idiot who has the tactical acumen of a golden retriever. I keep getting sold this "Mike Matheny: Leader of Men" bill of goods and frankly, I've not seen it. Okay, Mikey - prove me wrong. If you actually run a tight ship and your skills as a manager manifest themselves in your interpersonal skills, then this is your wheelhouse right here.

This team isn't as good as Chicago and if they hope to be, they need to take a chance and have it hit. There's no more justifiable risk in baseball right now than Yasiel Puig. The talent is there to be exactly what Oscar Taveras was supposed to be. The leadership in the clubhouse is evidently there (or so I'm told by the Matheny supporters).

Go get him. Frankly, it should've been done yesterday.

O.city

08-02-2016, 09:20 AM

Where do you play Puig in stl? Center?

DJ's left nut

08-02-2016, 09:30 AM

Where do you play Puig in stl? Center?

Not entirely sure, honestly.

Depends a lot on the hamstrings. Yes, I think he can play CF no worse than Grichuk but the hammys are worrisome. Personally, I think the injury risk in CF isn't much greater than in the corners because you don't have to worry much about stopping when you go hammering into the corners. That's why I always thought it was silly to play JD Drew in the corners to 'protect' his knees. That said, hamstrings are a bit of an outlier there. CF is going to encourage you to turn on the jets to get into the gaps and that'e exactly where one of those may grab on you.

My first inclination would be to put him in CF, yes. If the hamstrings start barking, I guess I put Piscotty back out there. The bottom line is that Grichuk isn't much of a defender anyway, nor is Wong. We just saw Pham flat out 'dumb' us into a loss. The team doesn't have a person that can play credible CF anyway so might as well run Piscotty out there to at least play nominally intelligent CF.

There's nothing that can be done to this team to make it a good defensive ballclub. At best, you're seeking average and hoping that your starting pitching does a better job with run prevention (and some batted ball luck at the right time should you make it to October). The Cards won in 2011 by simply bludgeoning teams into submission. If they want to win this year, that may be their only path.

BigRedChief

08-02-2016, 09:36 AM

Has Puig cleared waivers?

O.city

08-02-2016, 09:36 AM

Not entirely sure, honestly.

Depends a lot on the hamstrings. Yes, I think he can play CF no worse than Grichuk but the hammys are worrisome. Personally, I think the injury risk in CF isn't much greater than in the corners because you don't have to worry much about stopping when you go hammering into the corners. That's why I always thought it was silly to play JD Drew in the corners to 'protect' his knees. That said, hamstrings are a bit of an outlier there. CF is going to encourage you to turn on the jets to get into the gaps and that'e exactly where one of those may grab on you.

My first inclination would be to put him in CF, yes. If the hamstrings start barking, I guess I put Piscotty back out there. The bottom line is that Grichuk isn't much of a defender anyway, nor is Wong. We just saw Pham flat out 'dumb' us into a loss. The team doesn't have a person that can play credible CF anyway so might as well run Piscotty out there to at least play nominally intelligent CF.

There's nothing that can be done to this team to make it a good defensive ballclub. At best, you're seeking average and hoping that your starting pitching does a better job with run prevention (and some batted ball luck at the right time should you make it to October). The Cards won in 2011 by simply bludgeoning teams into submission. If they want to win this year, that may be their only path.

Yeah, I don't see much option other than that. We've been pretty unlucky thus far in regards to batted ball luck and overall, but they're gonna have to win that way.

Hindsight 2020, but knowing that grichuk was gonna suck, I wish they'd have kept Bourjos in center and could potentially have an outfield of Puig in left, Bourjos in center and Piscotty in right in the future. Hypothetically speaking.

'Hamas' Jenkins

08-02-2016, 09:44 AM

DJ's left nut

08-02-2016, 09:55 AM

Puig hasn't adjusted to hard inside, soft away. He's dumb as shit, he's gotten worse every year in the league, and he is probably the worst teammate in baseball.

And the Cardinals have not been that unlucky in batted ball luck. They lead baseball in RISP average.

A person with his raw strength and relatively little loft in his swing may actually benefit from what Mabry teaches. If he could actually get Puig focusing up the middle, Puig's strength is enough to be a 20 HR hitter than can adjust bo both hard in and soft away.

You have to take the chance on the talent when you're facing a legitimate talent gap. The Cardinals aren't going to get over the hump by throwing Harrison Bader to the wolves. Guys like Paul DeJong aren't going to save this team.

We all know that the Cardinals won't do it. That said, the way they handle Matheny is starting to look more and more like the way they 'utilized' Duncan in his last few years. Rather than look for undervalued assets that they could allow Duncan to mold into the pitch to contact mavens he preferred, they just went out and paid retail for guys that already did what Duncan liked. Well what's the !@#$ing point then?

If you swear up and down that your idiot manager's strengths are that he's a people person and then you do nothing but populate your roster with boy scouts, exactly what !@#$ing purpose does Mike Matheny serve? This is EXACTLY the situation where Matheny and Mabry could actually prove their worth.