Arguing with a Co-Worker

[gblowfish]

Since Foles is going to start this week, around the office, the guys were talking about this history of Chiefs QBs. One guy said "I wish we could have Vermeil and Green now...we'd go all the way." I basically said Vermeil was a mediocre coach with his time in KC, and Green was not a successful Chiefs QB. "How can you say that? He's the best QB KC had since Dawson." I said that you could argue that Cassel was as good as Green. Both had taken the team to the playoffs, both had equal playoff wins (zero). Green lost to Indy twice; Cassel to Baltimore at Arrowhead.

The Elephant in the Room for KC has always been the QB position. Here's some stuff to chew on:

KC's all time playoff record is 9-16. No super bowl since the 1969 season. That's 47 years, but who's counting?

Last time Chiefs drafted a QB in the 1st round was Blackledge in 1983.

The Chiefs have always used cast offs from other teams. Here a list of former SF QBs that have started for KC:
DeBerg, Montana, Bono, Grbac, Smith.

Other team castoff QBs that have started for KC over the years:
Dawson, Jaworski, Vlasic, Krieg, Gannon, Moon, Green, Huard, Cassel, now Foles.

Other QBs the Chiefs have drafted since Blackledge, and the round:

1987 Doug Hudson 7th, 1988 Danny McManus, 8th round, 1989 Mike Elkins 2nd Round, 1992 Matt Blunden 2nd Round, 1994 Steve Matthews 7th Round, 1995 Steve Stenstrom 4th Round, 1997 Pat Barnes 4th Round, 2005 James Killian 7th Round, 2006 Brodie Croyle 3rd Round, 2011 Ricky Stanzi, 5th Round, 2014 Aaron Murray, 5th Round. 2016: Kevin Hogan, 5th Round.

And that doesn't count the free agents and other camp invitees like Trick Shot Tanney and Casey Printers.

Chiefs traded their first round pick in 2001 to the Rams for Trent Green. That's the closest they've had to a 1st round QB pick since Blackledge.

Someday, they're going to have to draft and develop a QB. It's been 33 years since the last one. That has to be a record in the NFL. I wonder how many #1 picks the Browns have spent on QBs since 1983?

[MTG#10]

Stopped reading at Cassel was as good as Green.

[ptlyon]

Stopped reading at Cassel was as good as Green.

This

[siberian khatru]

Greg Hill was as good as Priest Holmes. Both took their teams to the playoffs, both had equal playoff wins (zero).

[seclark]

i'd take green over foles, but keep andy over dick.
sec

[KC_Lee]

At some point, the law of averages would favor the Chiefs drafting and developing a quality starting QB.

Doesn't even need to be in the first round. Montana (3rd) and Brady (6th I think) were not first round picks.

But since, over the past 25+ years, KC has either; A) hired HC that were established at one team for a long period of time and only want a vet QB (i.e. Marty, Reid) or B) hire a GM that is so beholden to a narrative that he's too blind to see the error of his ways (Fat Scot)

We can play the "What if...: game.
-- What if Green does not get his knee blown out while he's with the Rams? Would KC have gotten Warner instead??
-- What if Brady does not get his knee blown out (I'm sensing a trend here) thereby opening the door for Cassel?? Does KC take a QB with Fat Scott's first draft?

[Chiefnj2]

I didn't know Blowfish also suffered multiple concussions this weekend. Get better.

[Dayze]

everyone knows you win Championships with 1st round fatties and awesome tailgating.

[KranzDictum]

Bill Walsh talks about how Paul Brown taught him to draft a QB every year to have one to develop for your system. Doesn't have to be a high pick.

Guess which GM (hint: in the same division) who believes in drafting every year? 2nd Hint one of those late draft picks are paying off for them as they sit in 1st place right now!

Teams like kc and Chicago need to start drafting QB's and developing them rather than chasing needs. They don't even need to waste a 1st round pick, here is a thought rather than give someone else your 2nd round picks just ID a QB in draft and take him instead.

I get that Andy wanted to win now and thought he was a QB away, he just gave up too much for a guy who is more of an RB than QB.

I think you guys took one late this year, expect you to do it again. If you cut Alex next year his dead money drops to $7 Mill from $25. Then you have an extra roster spot for a young QB.

[kcjayhawks5]

Stopped reading at Cassel was as good as Green.

This. Please tell me that you didn't actually say that Cassel was as good as Green out loud... In front of people that you work with.

[Chiefspants]

I agree with the fact that Vermeil was hugely overrated, but the analysis on Green seems a little unfair.

I would have loved to have seen Trent with any kind of a defense. Sometimes I wonder how far the 2005 team would have gone if we had made it to the playoffs - iirc, we seemed to be clicking as a unit down the stretch.

[Beef Supreme]

Vermeil was great...


on offense.

[MTG#10]

If Green would have even had the #16th ranked D we would have at the very least won a couple playoff games, likely a lot more. I dont think some people remember how extraordinarily bad that D was.

[threebag]

Bring in a bottle of Visine with Super Glue in it, gets them everytime.

[lawrenceRaider]

This. Please tell me that you didn't actually say that Cassel was as good as Green out loud... In front of people that you work with.

Green was a pretty good QB for KC. Hell of a lot better than Cassel. KC has even an average defense with the Green led offense and they likely make a superbowl.

[Chief Pagan]

"I wish we could have Vermeil and Green the 2003 offensive line now...we'd go all the way."

FYP

[Lzen]

Stopped reading at Cassel was as good as Green.

Yeah, me too. Love reading your 10 things, George but that was dumb.

And Green played about as well as any QB could have played against Indy at Arrowhead. The problem is that he doesn't play defense and he didn't fumble the ball (Priest Holmes).

[Lzen]

I didn't know Blowfish also suffered multiple concussions this weekend. Get better.

ROFL

[Deberg_1990]

Ive mentioned this before, but there havent been many first round QBs since 1989 (Beginning of Carls tenure) that the Chiefs passed on that became great.

Aaron Rodgers comes to mind.....

It kills me that when we had the #1 overall, the QB selection was atrocious.

[Lzen]

Bill Walsh talks about how Paul Brown taught him to draft a QB every year to have one to develop for your system. Doesn't have to be a high pick.

Guess which GM (hint: in the same division) who believes in drafting every year? 2nd Hint one of those late draft picks are paying off for them as they sit in 1st place right now!

Teams like kc and Chicago need to start drafting QB's and developing them rather than chasing needs. They don't even need to waste a 1st round pick, here is a thought rather than give someone else your 2nd round picks just ID a QB in draft and take him instead.

I get that Andy wanted to win now and thought he was a QB away, he just gave up too much for a guy who is more of an RB than QB.

I think you guys took one late this year, expect you to do it again. If you cut Alex next year his dead money drops to $7 Mill from $25. Then you have an extra roster spot for a young QB.

Chiefs brought in Tyler Bray in 2013, drafted Aaron Murray in 2014, and drafted Kevin Hogan in 2016. Please stop talking of things about which you have no clue.

[Perineum Ripper]

everyone knows you win Championships with 1st round fatties and awesome tailgating.

This


If anyone disagrees you kick them in the taint.......or lady taint..whichever is appropriate

[Predarat]

cAssHole as good as Green???

http://66.media.tumblr.com/avatar_84231c12667f_512.png

[Spott]

That list of QB's is just plain awful.

[DJ's left nut]

Stopped reading at Cassel was as good as Green.

Yup.

Green was an excellent quarterback that should've been no worse than an AFC Champion at some point in his career and would've won a SB but/for injuries in St. Louis, IMO.

But he can't play defense. Understating his performance here because he was forced to be damn near perfect game in, game out shows an alarming lack of football acumen.

Inane weekly observations or no...

[Great Expectations]

The losses to Indy were not Green's fault. He was a very good QB; good enough to win a super bowl.

[VAChief]

Green had some good years here, and benefited from some very good offensive lines. That is the case with the majority of quarterbacks. Very few have talent that can overcome below average line play. Elway was one, especially early in his career (as much as I hate to admit).

[pr_capone]

In no universe is Mark Castle even half the QB that Trent was AFTER he left the Chiefs.

[KC_Lee]

Ive mentioned this before, but there havent been many first round QBs since 1989 (Beginning of Carls tenure) that the Chiefs passed on that became great.

Aaron Rodgers comes to mind.....

It kills me that when we had the #1 overall, the QB selection was atrocious.

A few QBs of note that KC could have taken since 1989, slim pickings to your point but a few serviceable gems.

Brett Favre 1991 2nd Round
Mark Brunell 1993 3rd Round
Matt Hasselbeck 1998 6th Round
Marc Bulger 2000 6th Round
Drew Brees 2001 2nd Round

[TimeForWasp]

I remember when he changed his name from Trint.

[Bowser]

Marc Bulger, lol. Can't see his name and not think of that turd poster here that went by Marc Bulger. Likely a mult, but hey, we're all just Kotter mults anyway.

[DJ's left nut]

A few QBs of note that KC could have taken since 1989, slim pickings to your point but a few serviceable gems.

Brett Favre 1991 2nd Round
Mark Brunell 1993 3rd Round
Matt Hasselbeck 1998 6th Round
Marc Bulger 2000 6th Round
Drew Brees 2001 2nd Round

Brees is the one that has always stung the most for me.

I loved DJ (obviously) and was stoked as hell when we got him. He was just such a perfect fit for what we needed and where we appeared to be in the competition cycle at the time that taking him over Rodgers was 100% defensible.

Brees, OTOH....ugh, I really wanted him. And giving up both a 1st and 2nd for Green just seemed way too stout, especially given how high those picks were. I was a pretty big fan of Brees and Smoot in that draft and given the way the draft fell, we could've traded down in the first and had both of them pretty easily (the Bills gave up a 2nd to trade right behind us, for example. Could've made that deal and netted an additional 2 while keeping our 1 and 2). Instead we used those two picks on Green.

Now as far as mistakes go, that one worked out okay in the Green sure was good here, but he wasn't Brees.

[Frosty]

IIRC, Vermiel didn't want Brees because he didn't want to start over with a rookie QB. The thing is, by the time a team was around Trent (2003), Brees wouldn't have been a rookie anymore.

Also, wasn't the 2nd for Vermiel, not Green?

[gblowfish]

Man, I always have to explain nuance to some of you numbskulls.

I do not believe Matt Casshole was a better QB than Tr-INT Green.
I said "one could make an argument."

What I meant by that is, if you look at actual success... and believe it or not, other franchises in the NFL measure success by HOW MANY PLAYOFF WINS and HOW MANY WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS you play for; then both QBs were equally futile in that pursuit.

I say this because, other franchises who have had success, draft a QB, develop that QB, then have a guy who can win those playoff games, and take that team to the Super Bowl. Like Rodgers. Like Brady. Like Rapistburger. Like both Mannings.

I don't think another team in the NFL has been as gun shy about spending a first round pick on a Rookie QB than the Chiefs.

That's all I'm saying.

I may have to go into concussion protocol now, from beating my forehead on my desk....

[lcarus]

Vermeil was a wizard as an offensive coach. Even more than Reid in my opinion. Any defense at all and we likely go to at least 1 Super Bowl, if not more. And Trent Green was a better QB than Matt Cassel. Yes, he had a great o-line, great running game, and HOF tight end. But still, I'd take him in his prime over Cassel in his prime any day.

[DJ's left nut]

Man, I always have to explain nuance to some of you numbskulls.

I do not believe Matt Casshole was a better QB than Tr-INT Green.
I said "one could make an argument."

What I meant by that is, if you look at actual success... and believe it or not, other franchises in the NFL measure success by HOW MANY PLAYOFF WINS and HOW MANY WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS you play for; then both QBs were equally futile in that pursuit.


And one could make an argument that Hillary Clinton is just as hot as Kate Upton. Afterall, if you measure hotness by how likely you are to fuck them, you're drawing dead either way.

It'd be really stupid, but far be it for me to stop you from making it.

[lcarus]

So you didn't have an argument with your co-worker really, but one COULD have made an argument if they wanted to. :)

[MTG#10]

Man, I always have to explain nuance to some of you numbskulls.

I do not believe Matt Casshole was a better QB than Tr-INT Green.
I said "one could make an argument."

What I meant by that is, if you look at actual success... and believe it or not, other franchises in the NFL measure success by HOW MANY PLAYOFF WINS and HOW MANY WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS you play for; then both QBs were equally futile in that pursuit.

I say this because, other franchises who have had success, draft a QB, develop that QB, then have a guy who can win those playoff games, and take that team to the Super Bowl. Like Rodgers. Like Brady. Like Rapistburger. Like both Mannings.

I don't think another team in the NFL has been as gun shy about spending a first round pick on a Rookie QB than the Chiefs.

That's all I'm saying.

I may have to go into concussion protocol now, from beating my forehead on my desk....

Still a dumb argument. I guess you could say Tony Moeaki was just as good as Tony Gonzalez right?

[ClevelandBronco]

i'd take green over foles, but keep andy over dick.
sec

Why should the Chiefs be made to choose between Andy and Dick when they can have both?

https://udc-wordpress.s3.amazonaws.com/content/uploads/2014/06/DIVISIONIII_umc_film_image-1200x630.jpg

[gblowfish]

The point is, the thing we lack that other teams have is developing our own talent. It's part of the team culture to use re-tread QBs. That seems like a hard way to win, based on the successful formulas of other organizations.

Dick Vermeil won 55% of his games as a Chiefs coach, which included his high point year of being 13-3. Otherwise he only had two winning seasons (including that one) in five years. So that's pretty mediocre. And he is very much responsible for ignoring the defense all those years.

[ptlyon]

Vermeil was a wizard as an offensive coach. Even more than Reid in my opinion.

:spock:

[KC_Lee]

Brees is the one that has always stung the most for me.

I loved DJ (obviously) and was stoked as hell when we got him. He was just such a perfect fit for what we needed and where we appeared to be in the competition cycle at the time that taking him over Rodgers was 100% defensible.

Brees, OTOH....ugh, I really wanted him. And giving up both a 1st and 2nd for Green just seemed way too stout, especially given how high those picks were. I was a pretty big fan of Brees and Smoot in that draft and given the way the draft fell, we could've traded down in the first and had both of them pretty easily (the Bills gave up a 2nd to trade right behind us, for example. Could've made that deal and netted an additional 2 while keeping our 1 and 2). Instead we used those two picks on Green.

Now as far as mistakes go, that one worked out okay in the Green sure was good here, but he wasn't Brees.

Agree 100% on the pain that was letting Brees "get away". Yeah Green was a good QB and could have gotten us far if KC had an average D. But Green was always a rental, Brees could have been our franchise QB and we whiffed...again an took a rental win now QB like KC always does.

[DJ's left nut]

The point is, the thing we lack that other teams have is developing our own talent. It's part of the team culture to use re-tread QBs. That seems like a hard way to win, based on the successful formulas of other organizations.

Dick Vermeil won 55% of his games as a Chiefs coach, which included his high point year of being 13-3. Otherwise he only had two winning seasons (including that one) in five years. So that's pretty mediocre. And he is very much responsible for ignoring the defense all those years.

Well fine. If you want to keep whittling your argument down to a truism, good work.

But when you start with "I told my co-worker that Trent Green wasn't a successful Chiefs quarterback" and then imply that he wasn't any more valuable than Matt Cassel, you deserve to be called a dipshit.

Because that's a dipshit argument. If all you're looking for is affirmation of a belief you already held, I suggest not starting a thread next time. If you want an actual dialogue, I wouldn't get so ass hurt when people tell you you're wrong.

[gblowfish]

Well fine. If you want to keep whittling your argument down to a truism, good work.

But when you start with "I told my co-worker that Trent Green wasn't a successful Chiefs quarterback" and then imply that he wasn't any more valuable than Matt Cassel, you deserve to be called a dipshit.

Because that's a dipshit argument. If all you're looking for is affirmation of a belief you already held, I suggest not starting a thread next time. If you want an actual dialogue, I wouldn't get so ass hurt when people tell you you're wrong.

I'm not ass hurt, and I'm OK if you disagree with me. That's what chat forums are for. I do think that Chiefs fans as a fan base don't demand enough from the organization, and insist that they try to develop a franchise QB. There's no reason that this team should go 33 years without trying. And what will happen this year? We may win a playoff game, but we'll probably end up losing to Brady or Rapistburger, or (Now) Carr, because they've got Home Grown QB talent, and we've got Pre-Owned low mileage cream puffs. I'm getting sick of being also rans because we don't have a top gun. I don't see an end to it.

And I think this weekend's game will be much closer than people think. Could be a dogfight.

[Dayze]

you win Superbowls with a Corvette at QB.

The Chiefs have been lining up to race for years with a stock Honda Civic, where their only chance to win is if the Corvette blows up at the start of the race.

[Chiefnj2]

. And he is very much responsible for ignoring the defense all those years.

Not true at all. Vermeil left the defense to his coordinators and to Peterson. There was a lot of change in personnel during those years. Gunther even had his wish list that Peterson delivered - Kendrall Bell, Patrick Surtain, Knight and some other guys who went belly up.

[DJ's left nut]

Not true at all. Vermeil left the defense to his coordinators and to Peterson. There was a lot of change in personnel during those years. Gunther even had his wish list that Peterson delivered - Kendrall Bell, Patrick Surtain, Knight and some other guys who went belly up.

Yeah, you could try to argue that his loyalty to G-Rob hamstrung us for a year or so there but ultimately Vermiel just let his DC and GM do the work.

I guess you could argue that he should've taken a more pro-active approach to that side of the ball but precisely what good would it have done? He didn't really know what was going on over there anyway. And frankly, I'm not convinced Andy knows a hell of a lot about what we're doing with the D either. I think he does the same thing Vermiel did, he just hitched his wagon to a sturdier horse.

[Chiefnj2]

George,

If Green was not a successful QB then does that mean that Gonzalez wasn't a successful TE and DT wasn't a successful DE/OLB?

[O.city]

Yeah, the chiefs haven't had a qb blah blah. They haven't built a roster worth a shit since the 90s either.

[ClevelandBronco]

George,

If Green was not a successful QB then does that mean that Gonzalez wasn't a successful TE and DT wasn't a successful DE/OLB?

Trent Green was the Tony Gonzalez of quarterbacks? The DT of QBs?

Come on.

[DJ's left nut]

Trent Green was the Tony Gonzalez of quarterbacks? The DT of QBs?

Come on.

"You could make an argument...."

[Reerun_KC]

Yeah, the chiefs haven't had a qb blah blah. They haven't built a roster worth a shit since the 90s either.

Even then they still went with junk QBs and little offensive weapons.

[Easy 6]

Your weekly observations are anything but "inane", gblowfish

[Scorp]

I said that you could argue that Cassel was as good as Green.

No...................... just no

[lcarus]

:spock:

His offenses in KC and STL were really great. Too young to know about his time in Philly but I know he had some success there. And he did it all with Jaworski and Trent Green/Kurt Warner.

[TigeRRUppeRRcut]

you win Superbowls with a Corvette at QB.

The Chiefs have been lining up to race for years with a stock Honda Civic, where their only chance to win is if the Corvette blows up at the start of the race.

Really? Peyton Manning was god awful last year. Russell Wilson won a SB with game manager numbers and a terrible wide receiving corps. Eli Manning is above average on a VERY good day.

Tom Brady won his first 3 superbowls putting up paltry stats that could be mistaken for Ryan Fitzpatrick's. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm