**** BOB SUTTON

[The Franchise]

Those snaps need to start going to DOD more. Terrance Smith is another disappointment.

God Smith is horrible. It’s like the Chiefs knew that their fans would need a Smith to yell at during games so they gave us Terrance.

[O.city]

Yeah, Smith isn't good either. Atleast 2 times yesterday he had a guy stopped short of a first but couldn't make the tackle.

[htismaqe]

Yeah, Smith isn't good either. Atleast 2 times yesterday he had a guy stopped short of a first but couldn't make the tackle.

Another guy that doesn't know how to tackle. I will say one thing for Speaks, he had good tackling fundamentals. He looks a lot more like Houston and Ford in the sense than any of these other guys.

[FAX]

Reggie Ragland is an atrocity, period. A run stopper has to be gap sound. He's terrible.

I trust my eyes and haven't been impressed with Ragland since he lurched and stumbled into the locker room. I was surprised that he was actually able to line up square to the door, to be honest.

I have to believe that Paylor's man-crush on Ragland had a lot to do with the hype surrounding his "arrival". Heck, even Mellinger and the other Star writers jumped on the bandwagon. It was amazing to me ... like the stories were written in advance, or something. Anyway, a lot of fans bought it.

And you're right about his consistency in the run game. It's borderline horrible. Maybe past the border.

At this point (and until he starts to improve significantly), he's just a lumbering body out there creating confusion we don't need. It's been like fielding a zombie. Next Zombie Up!

FAX

[JoeyChuckles]

I don't get passionate about most football subjects on this site.

Why people defend Bob Sutton still amazes and angers me.

[DJ's left nut]

This. He’s accounted for a TD every game.

That TD to the RB was just pathetic.

The guy didn't even get fooled - he watched the runningback (was it Yeldon?) all the way out of the backfield and simply didn't have the athleticism to be anywhere near him.

I mean, I guess that's on Sutton for having him out there in a situation where the Jags are clearly passing and expecting him to be able to hang with ANYONE.

Ragland looked to have so much potential last year and he really did appear to be improving weekly. But at this point I can't even blame rust - he looks alarmingly like 'old DJ' out there without the intelligence. He simply doesn't have the athleticism to be on the field apart from clear running downs.

[ChiefsCountry]

The bitching about Bob Sutton is like bitching about Cueto for the Royals in 2015.

[DJ's left nut]

God Smith is horrible. It’s like the Chiefs knew that their fans would need a Smith to yell at during games so they gave us Terrance.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Smith yacked that tackle on 4th down right before Bortles ran the ball in, right?

I think it was Shags that caught the ball and he just ran through Smith to get the extra yards on 4th. Smith's gotta get through the body there and finish that play.

[htismaqe]

I don't get passionate about most football subjects on this site.

Why people defend Bob Sutton still amazes and angers me.

NOBODY is defending Bob Sutton.

The simple fact is that there are a half dozen other bigger problems with this defense and firing Sutton isn't going to fix them magically.

Some of us are actually interested in seeing the defense improve rather than holding up a sacrificial lamb in an effort to placate the fans.

[htismaqe]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Smith yacked that tackle on 4th down right before Bortles ran the ball in, right?

I think it was Shags that caught the ball and he just ran through Smith to get the extra yards on 4th. Smith's gotta get through the body there and finish that play.

I think that was the play where he hit him 4 or 5 yards short of the 1st on 3rd down and ended up inches short, setting up the 4th and 1 which Bortles converted on a sneak.

He also gave up a first down himself about 10 plays earlier or so.

[RunKC]

Veach did a solid job on the defense for the most part.

Xavier Williams has been really good (he hasn’t been the problem for the run defense), Hitchens is good but has suffered bc of Ragland, Scandrick/Fuller have covered well, Lucas flashed big on Sunday.

His draft picks are starting to show too. Nnandi has been good, Watts flashes for the 2nd straight game and I think O’Daniel’s time is coming.

It’s just Speaks that pissed me off. He looked better yesterday but if the guy is going to be an OLB then he needs to do what Chris Jones did and lose weight and build muscle/speed.

[FAX]

I don't get passionate about most football subjects on this site.

Why people defend Bob Sutton still amazes and angers me.

I suggest watching games and learning how NFL defenses work.

Just a thought.

FAX

[DJ's left nut]

NOBODY is defending Bob Sutton.

The simple fact is that there are a half dozen other bigger problems with this defense and firing Sutton isn't going to fix them magically.

Some of us are actually interested in seeing the defense improve rather than holding up a sacrificial lamb in an effort to placate the fans.

I have been. I think he's done...fine.

It's a play absolutely nobody will remember but it was after Speaks came into the game. I started watching him because I wanted to see what he could do. Bortles drops back and looks to his left - Sutton had dialed up a zone blitz and had dropped back into the short zone that Bortles intended to throw into. He never saw that zone blitz coming and you could see him flinch. He turned to his right and just gacked the play (I think he threw it into someone's feet or even OOB).

It was a completely benign play that nobody will pay attention to because it worked in a conventional manner - just a simple failed play on defense. People will say Bortles just missed the pass but if you were watching the right space at the right time (I was, purely by accident) you saw a damn creative playcall work to perfection.

Sutton does this far far FAR more often than anyone will recognize. And while he now needs to work on some of his personnel groups - I think you need to be 4-5 games in to really make some of those calls and start shoveling dirt on guys, especially younger ones like Ragland, Murray or Nelson.

Some guys are getting better (Murray and Nelson) others aren't (Ragland). So you start to make different personnel decisions and keep building the defense up.

The D played solid football yesterday and I think Sutton actually called a hell of a game. He was dialing up safety blitzes, fire zones, stunts/twists to find space for someone as generally stiff as Williams.

Sutton is not a problem. He's a fine DC who's trying to feel his way through a roster with some holes. Could we do better at some point in the future? Yeah, very probably. But we could do a hell of a lot worse and we almost certainly would if we tried to pull the trigger right now. Sutton's done a credible job.

[O.city]

The young kids look better with more playing time. Who'd have thunk it.

[ModSocks]

That TD to the RB was just pathetic.

The guy didn't even get fooled - he watched the runningback (was it Yeldon?) all the way out of the backfield and simply didn't have the athleticism to be anywhere near him.

I mean, I guess that's on Sutton for having him out there in a situation where the Jags are clearly passing and expecting him to be able to hang with ANYONE.

Ragland looked to have so much potential last year and he really did appear to be improving weekly. But at this point I can't even blame rust - he looks alarmingly like 'old DJ' out there without the intelligence. He simply doesn't have the athleticism to be on the field apart from clear running downs.

Pfffff......Ragland can't run with "old" DJ.

[ModSocks]

Ragland has to be hurt I can't think a guy who was fine last year has regressed that much.

I disagree that he was "fine" last year. He looked like a JAG last year. I said that this offseason.

Last year, everyone just placed the blame on DJ's age because they wanted to believe in Ragland so badly. This year, DJ isn't there to cover his ass or take the heat.

[Molitoth]

I disagree that he was "fine" last year. He looked like a JAG last year. I said that this offseason.

Last year, everyone just placed the blame on DJ's age because they wanted to believe in Ragland so badly. This year, DJ isn't there to cover his ass or take the heat.

:clap:

I can see that.

[FAX]

I blame the Star for the Ragland hype. I also blame those miserable bastards for dumping undeserved crap on Sutton (which some fans eat like Bucs finger dubs).

I sometimes wonder if those guys really understand the game. It's all about clicks and eyeballs these days. Print a headline/link that excites or riles people and ad revenue increases. Does it matter if they're right or wrong? Not to the CFO.

FAX

[FAX]

Oh ... and I wonder about Veach on the Ragland deal, too.

Shot in the dark? Cheap player who might turn out to be good? Okay with that. But when do you fold your hand?

FAX

[TambaBerry]

Like it or not but Sutton isn't set defensive genius. Last year playoff game. Titans running down our throats. Instead of bringing in another dlineman to add some beef upfront he keeps two fatties on the line and let's them run at zombo at will.

[htismaqe]

Oh ... and I wonder about Veach on the Ragland deal, too.

Shot in the dark? Cheap player who might turn out to be good? Okay with that. But when do you fold your hand?

FAX

That seems to be his MO. For every David Amerson, you have an Orlando Scandrick. He seems to be looking at potential and/or somebody who has ups and downs, trying to find a diamond in the rough.

[htismaqe]

Like it or not but Sutton isn't set defensive genius. Last year playoff game. Titans running down our throats. Instead of bringing in another dlineman to add some beef upfront he keeps two fatties on the line and let's them run at zombo at will.

They didn't have enough defensive linemen to do that. There's a reason Zombo was in the game and it wasn't because Bob is an idiot.

Fix the personnel, fix the defense.

[ModSocks]

Oh ... and I wonder about Veach on the Ragland deal, too.

Shot in the dark? Cheap player who might turn out to be good? Okay with that. But when do you fold your hand?

FAX

It was a shot in the dark he took based on his college pedigree. And i thought it was a great move at the time. I don't question the move at all and i'm glad Veach took a shot.

But it hasn't panned out. He was aight last season, but nothing special. And i thought it was down right stubborn that most of CP gave him a pass for our atrocious run D and placed most of it squarley on DJ's shoulders.

This defense today would be better with a DJ/Hitchens combo than with Ragland. Sure, DJ has lost a step, but if you've watched him with the Raiders you can see that he's still quicker and more nimble than Ragland.

And unlike Ragland, you can still depend on DJ to at least fill the correct gap and make the tackle.

Ragland simply isn't doing ANYTHING right right now.

[htismaqe]

It was a shot in the dark he took based on his college pedigree. And i thought it was a great move at the time. I don't question the move at all and i'm glad Veach made it.

But it hasn't panned out. He was aight last season, but nothing special. And i thought it was down right stubborn that most of CP gave him a pass for our atrocious run D and placed most of it squarley on DJ's shoulders.

This defense today would be better with a DJ/Hitchens combo than with Ragland. Sure, DJ has lost a step, but if you've watched him with the Raiders you can see that he's still quicker and more nimble than Ragland.

And unlike Ragland, you can still depend on DJ to at least fill the correct gap and make the tackle.

Ragland simply isn't doing ANYTHING right right now.

:clap:

[FAX]

Like it or not but Sutton isn't set defensive genius. Last year playoff game. Titans running down our throats. Instead of bringing in another dlineman to add some beef upfront he keeps two fatties on the line and let's them run at zombo at will.

I'm sorry, man, but this is just selective criticism.

If it weren't, I wouldn't mention it. But ...

FAX

[Sassy Squatch]

They didn't have enough defensive linemen to do that. There's a reason Zombo was in the game and it wasn't because Bob is an idiot.

Fix the personnel, fix the defense.
Kpassagnon didn't play a single defensive snap that game. Stop.

[htismaqe]

Kpassagnon didn't play a single defensive snap that game. Stop.

KPass isn't a defensive lineman nor is his strong suit stopping the run. Try again.

[FAX]

It was a shot in the dark he took based on his college pedigree. And i thought it was a great move at the time. I don't question the move at all and i'm glad Veach took a shot.

But it hasn't panned out. He was aight last season, but nothing special. And i thought it was down right stubborn that most of CP gave him a pass for our atrocious run D and placed most of it squarley on DJ's shoulders.

This defense today would be better with a DJ/Hitchens combo than with Ragland. Sure, DJ has lost a step, but if you've watched him with the Raiders you can see that he's still quicker and more nimble than Ragland.

And unlike Ragland, you can still depend on DJ to at least fill the correct gap and make the tackle.

Ragland simply isn't doing ANYTHING right right now.

I wasn't around for the DJ vs Ragland debate to which you refer (thank heavens).

But I was vocal about my concerns regarding Ragland elsewhere and got a virtual curb-stomping for my effort. People appeared to be Star-struck.

I would have been more than happy to have been wrong about the guy, but it's as though people actually didn't believe he was ON THE FIELD while the Tacks were running down our throats with unmitigated simplicity in the PO game.

I can't imagine that Veach is thrilled with what he's seen this year. Unless, of course, his knee is completely useless ... in which case, good 'ol Ragland is trying.

FAX

[Sassy Squatch]

KPass isn't a defensive lineman nor is his strong suit stopping the run. Try again.
Last time I checked Zombo and Kpass played the same position. Try again.

[FAX]

Kpassagnon didn't play a single defensive snap that game. Stop.

Here's a very good example of why it's not that simple, Mr. Superturtle ... even though some fans would like it to be ...

Dependability and accountability are important characteristics in a player.

Zombo was always where he was supposed to be ... when he was supposed to be there. If I'm a DC, that's extremely important to me. Kpassaneggnogg didn't have the knowledge or experience you could trust a lot of situations. Think of it like this ... you can have a bigger gun, but if you don't point it in the right direction, you're likely going to hit something you wish you hadn't. You'll just make a bigger hole in the wrong place and that's usually not good.

FAX

[Sassy Squatch]

Here's a very good example of why it's not that simple, Mr. Superturtle ... even though some fans would like it to be ...

Dependability and accountability are important characteristics in a player.

Zombo was always where he was supposed to be ... when he was supposed to be there. If I'm a DC, that's extremely important to me. Kpassaneggnogg didn't have the knowledge or experience you could trust a lot of situations. Think of it like this ... you can have a bigger gun, but if you don't point it in the right direction, you're likely going to hit something you wish you hadn't. You'll just make a bigger hole in the wrong place and that's usually not good.

FAX
I'd be more willing to buy that argument if Kpassagnon was given a chance and completely blew it. Not even 1 single snap.

[htismaqe]

Last time I checked Zombo and Kpass played the same position. Try again.

Keep trying to change the argument, that's the only hope you have. I get it.

But in case for some reason, you've forgotten what the argument was in the last 35 or so minutes, here was the original contention. You've conveniently chosen to focus on Zombo instead of TambaBerry's ACTUAL complaint.

Like it or not but Sutton isn't set defensive genius. Last year playoff game. Titans running down our throats. Instead of bringing in another dlineman to add some beef upfront he keeps two fatties on the line and let's them run at zombo at will.

[htismaqe]

I'd be more willing to buy that argument if Kpassagnon was given a chance and completely blew it. Not even 1 single snap.

How was playing KPass going to fix the problem that TambaBerry put forward? He's not a lineman and he would have been playing IN PLACE OF Zombo, not in front of him.

[ModSocks]

I'd be more willing to buy that argument if Kpassagnon was given a chance and completely blew it. Not even 1 single snap.

Kpasso, like a lot of rookie front 7 players, got pushed around a lot at the PoA.

Today's Kpasso is nothing like last years Kpasso. Last year's Kpasso was long, lanky limbs flying around about as he routinely got pushed around.

[ModSocks]

When i think of last year's Kpasso i think of whacky inflatable tube man getting pushed off the LoS. Just long ass limbs flailing everywhere as the OL gets under his pads and shoves him out of the way.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/cvaRGiMWRaE" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This is part of the reason why i'm not overly down on Speaks right now. Front 7 guys need years in the NFL to reach their potential. Unless they're a generational type talent of course.

[htismaqe]

Kpasso, like a lot of rookie front 7 players, got pushed around a lot at the PoA.

Today's Kpasso is nothing like last years Kpasso. Last year's Kpasso was long, lanky limbs flying around about as he routinely got pushed around.

You make it so difficult! Just fire Bob Sutton! Much easier, problem solved.

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_cW4kucEGIgI%2FTLovOyy5rsI%2FAAAAAAAALjc%2F3aCNK-Nnt0s%2Fs1600%2Fscapegoat.jpg&f=1

[ChiefBlueCFC]

I haven't read a single comment on this thread, so I apologize if this has been said before.

The more I watch the defense, I don't think Bob Sutton is entirely the problem. A lot of this season, it has seemed players have been in position but haven't made the plays.

We have seen a lot of missed tackles, but the guys are there. Of course, they played MILES better yesterday and it a good sign to see them improving this week. Hopefully they get a little bit better every week. As a lot of people know, at least I think they know, we don't need the defense to be a top 10 defense. They don't even need to be a top 15 defense, but if they're a top 20-24 defense, they can go very far with Pat.

Anyways, I love Pat Mahomes. That is all.

[htismaqe]

I haven't read a single comment on this thread, so I apologize if this has been said before.

The more I watch the defense, I don't think Bob Sutton is entirely the problem. A lot of this season, it has seemed players have been in position but haven't made the plays.

We have seen a lot of missed tackles, but the guys are there. Of course, they played MILES better yesterday and it a good sign to see them improving this week. Hopefully they get a little bit better every week. As a lot of people know, at least I think they know, we don't need the defense to be a top 10 defense. They don't even need to be a top 15 defense, but if they're a top 20-24 defense, they can go very far with Pat.

Anyways, I love Pat Mahomes. That is all.

Just be warned, that's a dangerous take around here. Likely to get you called all kinds of names...

[ModSocks]

I haven't read a single comment on this thread, so I apologize if this has been said before.

The more I watch the defense, I don't think Bob Sutton is entirely the problem. A lot of this season, it has seemed players have been in position but haven't made the plays.

.

That would be an astute observation, noob.

[FAX]

I'd be more willing to buy that argument if Kpassagnon was given a chance and completely blew it. Not even 1 single snap.

If you can't see the contradiction in this statement, I have nothing more to add.

FAX

[Sassy Squatch]

How was playing KPass going to fix the problem that TambaBerry put forward? He's not a lineman and he would have been playing IN PLACE OF Zombo, not in front of him.
What was the problem? Titans were running at Zombo at will. His solution? More D Linemen. I offered another solution in rotating Kpassagnon with Zombo.

[ModSocks]

What was the problem? Titans were running at Zombo at will. His solution? More D Linemen. I offered another solution in rotating Kpassagnon with Zombo.

It wasn't just Zombo they were running at. The D got ran over. Period.

[htismaqe]

What was the problem? Titans were running at Zombo at will. His solution? More D Linemen. I offered another solution in rotating Kpassagnon with Zombo.

The problem was that they weren't protecting Zombo. Rotating in KPass would have led to KPass getting abused because he would have also been unprotected.

The problem, as TambaBerry stated TWICE in one sentence was not putting enough beef on the line.

But keep trying to change the argument.

[suzzer99]

NFL.com: Chiefs D steps up http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000971521/article/kansas-city-chiefs-defense-turns-corner-after-punishing-jaguars

[DJ's left nut]

Like it or not but Sutton isn't set defensive genius. Last year playoff game. Titans running down our throats. Instead of bringing in another dlineman to add some beef upfront he keeps two fatties on the line and let's them run at zombo at will.

Of course he isn't.

But Wade Phillips, the person one would most associate with being a 'defensive genius', is getting his ass stomped every bit as badly in STL (if not moreso) with far more talent to work with.

Being a defensive genius has always been a bit of a misnomer if for no other reason than the fact that defense is, by its nature, reactive. The only way you can dictate terms as a defense is if you simply have far more talent than the opposing offense. Otherwise you're left with simply trying to answer the guys that have the ball, know where they're going with it and what they're trying to do.

I'm not convinced there's any such thing as a defensive genius anymore. Frankly, there's a chance there simply never was. Offense can be made by scheme - defense is largely a product of talent and attitude.

[DJ's left nut]

It wasn't just Zombo they were running at. The D got ran over. Period.

And here's the ultimate shit of it.

If/when we lose in the playoffs (and sadly, in a Chiefs vs. the Field argument, the field should be the runaway favorite), the defense will almost certainly play a large role in that. Because the defense isn't good.

But that's not the argument even the people who are supporting Sutton are trying to have. We KNOW this team is extremely unlikely to have it's defense go win them a ballgame. And of the respective groups, it's the unit that's far more likely to lose us one.

But lord - we're in a cap league; that's the nature of the beast. Every organization in football picks a direction and pursues it. The Chiefs are choosing to win with their offense and hope their defense can make enough big plays to come through when it counts. If the thing that's mostly likely to happen happens (the Chiefs fall short of a championship), that doesn't mean that Sutton obviously sucks. Shit, it doesn't even mean that the plan was flawed.

It means they lost...because that's what's going to happen to 97% of the teams in the NFL. Now if they lose because Ragland's out there on 3rd and long with the game on the line in the 4th quarter and he gets roasted...well Bobbo will have to answer to that. But the long knives are out for the guy either way and they have been remarkably unfairly brandished even to this point.

That Titans game was a perfect example of that reaction. That game was our defensive front being physically handled and really starting to question themselves. That's where a stoic guy like Sutton hurts you - he's not going to get them fired back up when shit turns like that. But it wasn't a scheme problem. It wasn't even a particular personnel problem (I don't believe Sutton had a clearly better option available to him). It was simply a defense getting overpowered by a more physical offense across the board. It was damn disappointing but I'm just not sure what else Bob Sutton could've done in that game.

[htismaqe]

Of course he isn't.

But Wade Phillips, the person one would most associate with being a 'defensive genius', is getting his ass stomped every bit as badly in STL (if not moreso) with far more talent to work with.

Being a defensive genius has always been a bit of a misnomer if for no other reason than the fact that defense is, by its nature, reactive. The only way you can dictate terms as a defense is if you simply have far more talent than the opposing offense. Otherwise you're left with simply trying to answer the guys that have the ball, know where they're going with it and what they're trying to do.

I'm not convinced there's any such thing as a defensive genius anymore. Frankly, there's a chance there simply never was. Offense can be made by scheme - defense is largely a product of talent and attitude.

Absolutely brilliant post. :clap:

[htismaqe]

And here's the ultimate shit of it.

If/when we lose in the playoffs (and sadly, in a Chiefs vs. the Field argument, the field should be the runaway favorite), the defense will almost certainly play a large role in that. Because the defense isn't good.

But that's not the argument even the people who are supporting Sutton are trying to have. We KNOW this team is extremely unlikely to have it's defense go win them a ballgame. And of the respective groups, it's the unit that's far more likely to lose us one.

But lord - we're in a cap league; that's the nature of the beast. Every organization in football picks a direction and pursues it. The Chiefs are choosing to win with their offense and hope their defense can make enough big plays to come through when it counts. If the thing that's mostly likely to happen happens (the Chiefs fall short of a championship), that doesn't mean that Sutton obviously sucks. Shit, it doesn't even mean that the plan was flawed.

It means they lost...because that's what's going to happen to 97% of the teams in the NFL. Now if they lose because Ragland's out there on 3rd and long with the game on the line in the 4th quarter and he gets roasted...well Bobbo will have to answer to that. But the long knives are out for the guy either way and they have been remarkably unfairly brandished even to this point.

That Titans game was a perfect example of that reaction. That game was our defensive front being physically handled and really starting to question themselves. That's where a stoic guy like Sutton hurts you - he's not going to get them fired back up when shit turns like that. But it wasn't a scheme problem. It wasn't even a particular personnel problem (I don't believe Sutton had a clearly better option available to him). It was simply a defense getting overpowered by a more physical offense across the board. It was damn disappointing but I'm just not sure what else Bob Sutton could've done in that game.

They could have gotten a turnover and given the ball back to Ale...ah, never mind.

[O.city]

The best way they could have beaten the Titans was to have the offense score more.

[FAX]

The best way they could have beaten the Titans was to have the offense score more.

Yeppers.

Like, say ... make a field goal.

Or ... dare I mention it ... if the official who called "forward progress" on a clear stip/sack/fumble had reversed himself as he should have done.

We were jobbed in that game. Arguments to the contrary are utterly ignorable.

FAX

[DJ's left nut]

The best way they could have beaten the Titans was to have the offense score more.

Offense could've scored more if they had more than 3 drives in the entire 2nd half.

It wasn't just that the defense got beat that killed them - it was the WAY they got beat. Just a slow, methodical strangulation. A public emasculation. I don't know if the Titans HC just lined his players up in a circle, sat down in the middle and ate a bag of glass or what, but those guys came out to start the 2nd half hell-bent on physically abusing the Chiefs defense and that's exactly what they did.

[Molitoth]

Of course he isn't.

But Wade Phillips, the person one would most associate with being a 'defensive genius', is getting his ass stomped every bit as badly in STL (if not moreso) with far more talent to work with.

Being a defensive genius has always been a bit of a misnomer if for no other reason than the fact that defense is, by its nature, reactive. The only way you can dictate terms as a defense is if you simply have far more talent than the opposing offense. Otherwise you're left with simply trying to answer the guys that have the ball, know where they're going with it and what they're trying to do.

I'm not convinced there's any such thing as a defensive genius anymore. Frankly, there's a chance there simply never was. Offense can be made by scheme - defense is largely a product of talent and attitude.

I can be on board with that take.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

At this point, I don't want to see anything even remotely like this franchise's overall history. :Lin:

I want to see playoff wins. This team is better suited to win in the post season than any team since Joe Montana. Even WITH this defense.

Then allow me to clarify; I speak to the history of the great units that the Chiefs have fielded, NOT to the abortions of Dick Vermeil or Herm Edwards etc.

And of course this team has greater post-season possibilities; we replaced a major post-season hindrance with a generational mega-star at the most important position in the modern league.
If you truly believe that the defensive shortcomings are solely based upon the roster, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[htismaqe]

Then allow me to clarify; I speak to the history of the great units that the Chiefs have fielded, NOT to the abortions of Dick Vermeil or Herm Edwards etc.

And of course this team has greater post-season possibilities; we replaced a major post-season hindrance with a generational mega-star at the most important position in the modern league.
If you truly believe that the defensive shortcomings are solely based upon the roster, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Bob Sutton's coaching history suggests that the roster is to blame. There's no actual evidence to suggest otherwise, just emotion.

[ChiefBlueCFC]

Just be warned, that's a dangerous take around here. Likely to get you called all kinds of names...

I appreciate the heads up! haha

[Jimmya]

Sutton's history? Like being reassigned from DC to linebackers coach in New York. Dude is on the same path as Mike Stoops, only a matter of time. As Shannon Sharpe said "they gave up close to 550 yds of offense to Jacksonville!"

[The Franchise]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chiefs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Chiefs</a> let Breeland Speaks play with his hand in the dirt a few times against the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Jaguars?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Jaguars</a> and he looked a lot better. Better burst, balance, and got some pressure on Bortles.</p>&mdash; Charles Goldman (@goldmctNFL) <a href="https://twitter.com/goldmctNFL/status/1049162961082875905?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 8, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Aspengc8]

Sutton's history? Like being reassigned from DC to linebackers coach in New York. Dude is on the same path as Mike Stoops, only a matter of time. As Shannon Sharpe said "they gave up close to 550 yds of offense to Jacksonville!"

Houston with a hammy, Ford has a busted shoulder, players in our secondary that wouldn't even be on other team's roster. What do you expect?

[Chris Meck]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chiefs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Chiefs</a> let Breeland Speaks play with his hand in the dirt a few times against the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Jaguars?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Jaguars</a> and he looked a lot better. Better burst, balance, and got some pressure on Bortles.</p>&mdash; Charles Goldman (@goldmctNFL) <a href="https://twitter.com/goldmctNFL/status/1049162961082875905?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 8, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Speaks is a DE. I don't know why they won't just admit it.

[htismaqe]

Sutton's history? Like being reassigned from DC to linebackers coach in New York. Dude is on the same path as Mike Stoops, only a matter of time. As Shannon Sharpe said "they gave up close to 550 yds of offense to Jacksonville!"

Look at the stats since he came to KC. They don't lie.

What are you going to do when they don't fire him?

[htismaqe]

Houston with a hammy, Ford has a busted shoulder, players in our secondary that wouldn't even be on other team's roster. What do you expect?

For Sutton to field a HoF defense. Talent doesn't matter in the NFL, it's on the coaches to develop/scheme/pull a rabbit out of a hat. NFL coaching is like MAGIC!

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwp.production.patheos.com%2Fblogs%2Fthecrescat%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F03%2Funicorn_pooping _a_rainbow_20px.jpg&f=1

[TambaBerry]

Look at the stats since he came to KC. They don't lie.

What are you going to do when they don't fire him?

Just curious are you happy with Sutton's work?

[htismaqe]

Just curious are you happy with Sutton's work?

No. But I'm even less happy with Veach's work.

When Sutton had a healthy Berry, Poe, and Houston, this defense was top 5 in scoring defense not once, not twice, but 3 years in a row. That's the best 3-year stretch since the Chiefs were in the AFL.

I want to the defense to be fixed. Firing Sutton won't fix the defense. Therefore, it's not worth talking about. They need better players. If, and only if, they get better players, then we can talk about firing Sutton.

[FAX]

Sutton's history? Like being reassigned from DC to linebackers coach in New York. Dude is on the same path as Mike Stoops, only a matter of time. As Shannon Sharpe said "they gave up close to 550 yds of offense to Jacksonville!"

Thannon Tharpe doesn't even watch the games, my friend. He has an assistant to the assistant hand him stats then his job is to blather.

Yards are practically meaningless in the NFL. Ever ask yourself "when" the Chiefs gave up all those yards? Or "why"? Did you ask Thannon?

I mean, really ... Thannon Tharpe?

FAX

[Iconic]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Taking a look at 3RD DOWN DEFENSE situationally the next few posts:<br><br>Here&#39;s the best and worst 3rd &amp; SHORT conversion rates (1-2 yards) this season.<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/KeepPounding?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#KeepPounding</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Seahawks?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Seahawks</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/GoNiners?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#GoNiners</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/TitanUp?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#TitanUp</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Browns?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Browns</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/DUUUVAL?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#DUUUVAL</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Skol?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Skol</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/HTTR?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#HTTR</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/GoPats?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#GoPats</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/GoBucs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#GoBucs</a> <a href="https://t.co/uVsOtN9R4R">pic.twitter.com/uVsOtN9R4R</a></p>&mdash; NFL Matchup on ESPN (@NFLMatchup) <a href="https://twitter.com/NFLMatchup/status/1049396536176795649?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 8, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Iconic]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Final Situational 3rd Down post: �� 3rd &amp; LONG (7+ yards) ��<br><br>This seasons best and worst defenses thus far when getting the offense to a 3rd &amp; 7+ down and distance!<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ChiefsKingdom?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ChiefsKingdom</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/TitanUp?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#TitanUp</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/OnePride?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#OnePride</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Browns?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Browns</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/GiantsPride?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#GiantsPride</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/GoBucs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#GoBucs</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Jets?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Jets</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/LARams?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#LARams</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/FinsUp?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#FinsUp</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/SeizeTheDEY?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#SeizeTheDEY</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/GoNiners?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#GoNiners</a> <a href="https://t.co/Tr1DPoJ4S0">pic.twitter.com/Tr1DPoJ4S0</a></p>&mdash; NFL Matchup on ESPN (@NFLMatchup) <a href="https://twitter.com/NFLMatchup/status/1049412633374457856?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 8, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[FAX]

Hmmm ... our next opponent doesn't fare too well in those categories.

FAX

[PAChiefsGuy]

Everyone wants to talk about our offense but thedefense and Sutton did a great job against the Jags and they deserve to get a lot of praise especially considering how badly they've been criticized here.

Lets hope their good play continues. It was great to see. They dominated the Jags offense. Don't care about the yds total most of that came in garbage time then the game was already over.

[Deberg_1990]

They have been pretty good when it matters the most

If they could just stop the run they would be pretty good.

[FAX]

Yep. There's this concept called "shedding the block". Our ILBs seem to have some issues with that.

FAX

[htismaqe]

Yep. There's this concept called "shedding the block". Our ILBs seem to have some issues with that.

FAX

Ragland isn't gap sound. He often just shoots the wrong one, which leaves him horribly out of position.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Sutton's history? Like being reassigned from DC to linebackers coach in New York. Dude is on the same path as Mike Stoops, only a matter of time. As Shannon Sharpe said "they gave up close to 550 yds of offense to Jacksonville!"

Well now THIS is interesting, as it showcases a continuous theme of regression with Mr. Sutton.

You're not going to acquire the equivalent of Pat Mahomes II for the defense, a player who can make coaching/play calling shortcomings magically disappear, so trying to use the old "D-Coord dialed a good game/players couldn't execute"-strategy to defend the man responsible for three years of continuous regression doesn't hold water.
Sutton is NOT Reid. He is NOT a defensive scholar or mastermind, hamstrung by a series of unfortunate events or a lack of talent, or a series of bad GM's who can't draft worth a fuck.
He is however a low energy, finesse over aggression, bend don't break-type who has been blessed to work in the shadow of one of the NFL's most winning head coaches.

[chiefzilla1501]

Sutton's history? Like being reassigned from DC to linebackers coach in New York. Dude is on the same path as Mike Stoops, only a matter of time. As Shannon Sharpe said "they gave up close to 550 yds of offense to Jacksonville!"

Jax is a bad example. The defense dominated Jacksonville. Unlike other games, we never let Jacksonville climb back. I could care less how many garbage yards. Anyone who acts like our defense didn't dominate from start to finish didn't watch the game. Of course desperate teams clawing from behind will rack up tons of yards.

[FAX]

Ragland isn't gap sound. He often just shoots the wrong one, which leaves him horribly out of position.

The question is why?

Is his eyebone connected to his kneebone?

It seems like he sometimes focuses on the block coming his way (when he even sees it) and ignores his other keys. Once engaged, he fails to see the RB ... maybe. I can't tell, actually. Maybe he's just slow-minded. But I do know that he's been occupied by every sort of block in the book so far this year.

FAX

[RINGLEADER]

Jax is a bad example. The defense dominated Jacksonville. Unlike other games, we never let Jacksonville climb back. I could care less how many garbage yards. Anyone who acts like our defense didn't dominate from start to finish didn't watch the game. Of course desperate teams clawing from behind will rack up tons of yards.

Yards are one of the worst ways to rank a defense. Up until yesterday the Chiefs had shown a knack for giving up points in bunches because of a host of issues including poor safety/LB coverage, poor tackling, and taking bad angles.

It's great that KC picked Bortles off but you can't count on most teams going into the red zone 3 times and coming away with 0 points.

Putting aside the PTSD from the numerous epic meltdowns of the past, if KC can even show a consistent pass rush they will destroy most teams that try to play from behind, whether those teams can get 500+ yards in offense or not.

[suzzer99]

Of course he isn't.

But Wade Phillips, the person one would most associate with being a 'defensive genius', is getting his ass stomped every bit as badly in STL (if not moreso) with far more talent to work with.

Being a defensive genius has always been a bit of a misnomer if for no other reason than the fact that defense is, by its nature, reactive. The only way you can dictate terms as a defense is if you simply have far more talent than the opposing offense. Otherwise you're left with simply trying to answer the guys that have the ball, know where they're going with it and what they're trying to do.

I'm not convinced there's any such thing as a defensive genius anymore. Frankly, there's a chance there simply never was. Offense can be made by scheme - defense is largely a product of talent and attitude.

I agree that talent and attitude probably doesn't get enough credit. But it's also about battlefield tactics - which can be coached. Little things like sealing the edge, which way your hips are turned, TACKLING, etc.

While obviously not bursting with talent, I still see good team speed with the Chiefs D - which makes me wonder how well they're being coached on the little things. Whereas 2003 - those guys were just obviously slow.

Also they're largely new players to the system and each other. So the optimist in me just hopes they need some time to gel - and maybe Sunday was a sign of that happening.

[Chiefnj2]

The Chiefs defense benefitted from Jax's horrible play calling.

[htismaqe]

I agree that talent and attitude probably doesn't get enough credit. But it's also about battlefield tactics - which can be coached. Little things like sealing the edge, which way your hips are turned, TACKLING, etc.

Nope. If guys at the NFL level don't know how to tackle or hold the edge, that's on them. They've been playing football most of their adolescent and adult lives. If the coaches have to spend game prep teaching fundamentals, the GENERAL MANAGER hasn't done his job.

[htismaqe]

Well now THIS is interesting, as it showcases a continuous theme of regression with Mr. Sutton.

You're not going to acquire the equivalent of Pat Mahomes II for the defense, a player who can make coaching/play calling shortcomings magically disappear, so trying to use the old "D-Coord dialed a good game/players couldn't execute"-strategy to defend the man responsible for three years of continuous regression doesn't hold water.
Sutton is NOT Reid. He is NOT a defensive scholar or mastermind, hamstrung by a series of unfortunate events or a lack of talent, or a series of bad GM's who can't draft worth a fuck.
He is however a low energy, finesse over aggression, bend don't break-type who has been blessed to work in the shadow of one of the NFL's most winning head coaches.

The only continuous theme with Sutton is that as Pioli's players aged and they were replaced by Dorsey's drafts, the defense got worse and worse.

You simply cannot watch this team over the last 5 years and come to any other conclusion.

Unless of course you have no idea what you're actually watching.

[suzzer99]

Nope. If guys at the NFL level don't know how to tackle or hold the edge, that's on them. They've been playing football most of their adolescent and adult lives. If the coaches have to spend game prep teaching fundamentals, the GENERAL MANAGER hasn't done his job.

I know this is a popular sentiment, but I don't think this is reality though. Anyone playing at the absolute top of their field needs to be constantly trying to improve, and needs to be reminded when their technique is slipping. Otherwise why even have position coaches? You'd just need a defensive coordinator and nothing else. Why do drills at the pro-level? Just send everyone home to work on it themselves, since they know what they need to do.

I've seen plenty of Chiefs and Royals teams decline or ascend in basic skills with the same players in a new coaching regime. Same Royals went from stellar defense under Wathan to god-awful under McRae.

[htismaqe]

I know this is a popular sentiment, but I don't think this is reality though. Anyone playing at the absolute top of their field needs to constantly trying to improve and to be reminded when their technique is slipping.

I've seen plenty of Chiefs and Royals teams decline or ascend in basic skills with the same players in a new coaching regime.

Trying to improve does not equal practicing fundamentals. Trying to improve is learning a new hand-fighting technique, a new spin move, or the like.

Having to be told over and over to lower shoulder and wrap somebody up instead of trying to get on Sportscenter is a PLAYER problem, not a coaching problem.

[ping2000]

Is Sutton all of the problem? No. Does he still suck cock? Yes.

[suzzer99]

Trying to improve does not equal practicing fundamentals. Trying to improve is learning a new hand-fighting technique, a new spin move, or the like.

Having to be told over and over to lower shoulder and wrap somebody up instead of trying to get on Sportscenter is a PLAYER problem, not a coaching problem.

If good coaching can correct it even a bit, then it's also a coaching issue.

[htismaqe]

Is Sutton all of the problem? No. Does he still suck cock? Yes.

Best 3 year stint of any defensive coordinator in Chiefs NFL history.

Does Wade Phillips suck? He has Suh and Donald and gave up 200 yards rushing to the Seahawks and their rookies.

This is what happens when people make decisions based on emotion instead of rationality.

[htismaqe]

If good coaching can correct it even a bit, then it's also a coaching issue.

Coaching can't teach old dogs new tricks. The players either get it or they don't. Simple as that. The is the NFL. They're getting paid and paid HANDSOMELY.

Every second that they have to use teaching "fundamentals" instead of scheming for the next opponent is a wasted opportunity.

[ping2000]

Best 3 year stint of any defensive coordinator in Chiefs NFL history.

Does Wade Phillips suck? He has Suh and Donald and gave up 200 yards rushing to the Seahawks and their rookies.

This is what happens when people make decisions based on emotion instead of rationality.Biggest playoff collapses in history too. Again, he is not the whole problem, but he still sucks.

[htismaqe]

Biggest playoff collapses in history too. Again, he is not the whole problem, but he still sucks.

Just one FG in either of those collapses and they're wins.

Bob Sutton can't fix Alex Smith anymore than he can fix Terrance Smith. Players either make plays or they don't.

Anybody that thinks a coach is the difference between "good" and "bad" in the NFL doesn't watch enough football.

Coaching can make "good" teams "great" and "bad" teams "awful". But no amount of coaching can make a "bad" team "good".

[ping2000]

Just one FG in either of those collapses and they're wins.

Bob Sutton can't fix Alex Smith anymore than he can fix Terrance Smith. Players either make plays or they don't.

Anybody that thinks a coach is the difference between "good" and "bad" in the NFL doesn't watch enough football.

Coaching can make "good" teams "great" and "bad" teams "awful". But no amount of coaching can make a "bad" team "good".For the 500th time, I agree talent is just as important, but coaching does help, and he is an old senile hack. I want better talent AND a better coach. Why does it have to be one and not both? Why do you love him so much?

[Deberg_1990]

The Chiefs pass D is going to look bad all season because teams are always going to be playing catch up with the Chiefs offense.

Once the Chiefs get a comfortable lead, im sure part of the strategy is to use the clock to their advantage and just let teams keep completing short passes down the field. Let that clock run once you have a nice lead.

[htismaqe]

For the 500th time, I agree talent is just as important, but coaching does help, and he is an old senile hack. I want better talent AND a better coach. Why does it have to be one and not both? Why do you love him so much?

I don't love him at all. I think he's irrelevant. I think coaching, in general, is highly overrated unless you have great talent.

I simply don't care about Bob Sutton. I care about the Chiefs defense getting better and the way to do that is to get better talent.

[ping2000]

I don't love him at all. I think he's irrelevant. I think coaching, in general, is highly overrated unless you have great talent.

I simply don't care about Bob Sutton. I care about the Chiefs defense getting better and the way to do that is to get better talent.Well, we can disagree then. I want better talent and a better coach too. I'm greedy.

[penguinz]

Well, we can disagree then. I want better talent and a better coach too. I'm greedy.
Shitty talent will trump great coaching every time.

[htismaqe]

Well, we can disagree then. I want better talent and a better coach too. I'm greedy.

Who is your better coach? Romeo Crennel? His defense improved FIFTEEN spots when Bob Sutton took it over in 2013 with the same personnel.

Or perhaps Wade Phillips, who despite having Suh and Donald, gave up 200 yards rushing to the Seahawks?

The idea that there is some "defensive mastermind" out there that's better than Sutton is a myth, exacerbated by Chiefs fans longing for the Marty days of yester year. In fact, Sutton's 2014-2015 here was better than ANYTHING Marty ever put on the field.

[Red Dawg]

A lot of garbage time yards in the numbers. They stink but numbers wise probably not as bad as we think.

[FAX]

For the 500th time, I agree talent is just as important, but coaching does help, and he is an old senile hack. I want better talent AND a better coach. Why does it have to be one and not both? Why do you love him so much?

Let's engage in a thought experiment, Mr. ping2000.

Let's imagine that you are a pioneer and you are heading westward in your brand-new, covered wagon. Your young, beautiful wife and your infant child are in the back and you are driving the wagon. Now, let's say that your young, beautiful wife starts complaining incessantly about how long it's taking to arrive in California territory. You suddenly realize that there's a good chance that your young, beautiful wife doesn't really like the West and will likely divorce you as soon as you reach a decent-sized town. You also notice that one of the horses in your four-hitch is slower than all the others, okay?

Some people would encourage you to tell your wife to hush and behave herself rather than teach your child how to whine like a bitch. Others might suggest instead that you take your gun and shoot the slow horse. Still others might argue that the best course of action is to shoot yourself in the face.

The Chiefs' defensive problems are a lot like that.

FAX

[Barbell]

Bob Sutton is a good D coordinator. People are stupid.

[Molitoth]

Let's engage in a thought experiment, Mr. ping2000.

Let's imagine that you are a pioneer and you are heading westward in your brand-new, covered wagon. Your young, beautiful wife and your infant child are in the back and you are driving the wagon. Now, let's say that your young, beautiful wife starts complaining incessantly about how long it's taking to arrive in California territory. You suddenly realize that there's a good chance that your young, beautiful wife doesn't really like the West and will likely divorce you as soon as you reach a decent-sized town. You also notice that one of the horses in your four-hitch is slower than all the others, okay?

Some people would encourage you to tell your wife to hush and behave herself rather than teach your child how to whine like a bitch. Others might suggest instead that you take your gun and shoot the slow horse. Still others might argue that the best course of action is to shoot yourself in the face.

The Chiefs' defensive problems are a lot like that.

FAX

ROFL

[Jimmya]

Mike Stoops is also a good defensive coordinator. ��

[ping2000]

Holy shit. If you say Bob Sutton isn't a great coach you are a retard. You really believe there isn't any better coordinator out there? Why is it so bad to want BOTH a better coach AND better talent? Holy crap, not trying to start a war, but you guys are pretty fucking sensitive. Sorry to offend the board experts.

[Chris Meck]

The only continuous theme with Sutton is that as Pioli's players aged and they were replaced by Dorsey's drafts, the defense got worse and worse.

You simply cannot watch this team over the last 5 years and come to any other conclusion.

Unless of course you have no idea what you're actually watching.

I, for one, am tired of drafting "projects" and hoping they'll work out. No argument there. Just draft fucking guys that play well AT THEIR POSITION and quit trying to be so goddamned clever.

[htismaqe]

Holy shit. If you say Bob Sutton isn't a great coach you are a retard. You really believe there isn't any better coordinator out there? Why is it so bad to want BOTH a better coach AND better talent? Holy crap, not trying to start a war, but you guys are pretty fucking sensitive. Sorry to offend the board experts.

It's very simple - you are putting WAY too much emphasis on coaching. I'm not saying Sutton is good or bad, I'm saying he's irrelevant. A good coach CANNOT make a bad unit good. It's impossible.

Until they fix the personnel on this defense, there isn't a coach on the face of the planet that can fix things.

[htismaqe]

Mike Stoops is also a good defensive coordinator. ��

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2F1vLHnnIiwUN7a%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1

[hometeam]

Holy shit. If you say Bob Sutton isn't a great coach you are a retard. You really believe there isn't any better coordinator out there? Why is it so bad to want BOTH a better coach AND better talent? Holy crap, not trying to start a war, but you guys are pretty ****ing sensitive. Sorry to offend the board experts.

So wait.. you are a retard if you think there is NOT ONE OTHER PERSON that can coach this D to something other than last fucking place??

https://media.giphy.com/media/wWue0rCDOphOE/giphy.gif

[ping2000]

So wait.. you are a retard if you think there is NOT ONE OTHER PERSON that can coach this D to something other than last fucking place??

https://media.giphy.com/media/wWue0rCDOphOE/giphy.gifI think you misread my post. Others on here have stated there isn't anyone better than Sutton out there. I disagree with that. I'm just going to leave this thread now.

[htismaqe]

So wait.. you are a retard if you think there is NOT ONE OTHER PERSON that can coach this D to something other than last fucking place??

https://media.giphy.com/media/wWue0rCDOphOE/giphy.gif

First of all, this defense isn't in "last place". It's 20th in points allowed, which is the defensive stat that really matters.

Secondly, what is "improvement"? Taking this defense from where it is now to "respectable" is an appreciable leap and no, there is no defensive coordinator out there now that can do that. Sorry.

[FAX]

So wait.. you are a retard if you think there is NOT ONE OTHER PERSON that can coach this D to something other than last ****ing place??

https://media.giphy.com/media/wWue0rCDOphOE/giphy.gif

Yes. That is exactly what he is saying.

FAX

[htismaqe]

Yes. That is exactly what he is saying.

FAX

I mean, it makes sense FAX. You're talking about a fanbase that hasn't sniffed a Super Bowl in 30+ years blaming Greg Robinson for ruining 2003. Meanwhile, Neil Smith is at home polishing his Super Bowl ring that he won with GREG ROBINSON.

Players make plays. Sometimes the obvious is just too obvious.

[Jimmya]

I wouldn't claim Robinson of all coaches to be good, he is on many bad coaching lists!

Worst College Coaches Ever

8. Greg Robinson, Syracuse
Hired: January 2005
Fired: November 2008
Record at Syracuse: 5-37* (.119)
Career head coaching record: 5-37* (.119)

[htismaqe]

I wouldn't claim Robinson of all coaches to be good, he is on many bad coaching lists!

Worst College Coaches Ever

8. Greg Robinson, Syracuse
Hired: January 2005
Fired: November 2008
Record at Syracuse: 5-37* (.119)
Career head coaching record: 5-37* (.119)

He has two Super Bowl rings. I'm guessing he couldn't care less about how many of those stupid lists he's on or how you feel about him. ROFL

[Iconic]

Bob Sutton is a good D coordinator. People are stupid.

Best post of this faggots short lived stint

[htismaqe]

8-27-3.

That is the record of the Cal Bears from 1960-1963.

The head coach was Marv Levy and the offensive coordinator was...

WAIT FOR IT...

Bill Walsh.

Some seriously terrible coaching there, folks.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

The only continuous theme with Sutton is that as Pioli's players aged and they were replaced by Dorsey's drafts, the defense got worse and worse.

You simply cannot watch this team over the last 5 years and come to any other conclusion.

Unless of course you have no idea what you're actually watching.

Who is responsible for the defense? And are you really going to try and tell this board that "poor ol' Bob" just had to take what was given to him and make it work? That he had/has ZERO say in what defensive players the team is going to draft???

Who is your better coach? Romeo Crennel? His defense improved FIFTEEN spots when Bob Sutton took it over in 2013 with the same personnel.

Or perhaps Wade Phillips, who despite having Suh and Donald, gave up 200 yards rushing to the Seahawks?

The idea that there is some "defensive mastermind" out there that's better than Sutton is a myth, exacerbated by Chiefs fans longing for the Marty days of yester year. In fact, Sutton's 2014-2015 here was better than ANYTHING Marty ever put on the field.

And now we couldn't possibly do any better than Bob Sutton; it's just not possible!
LMAO

Which year in Bob's Reign of Greatness did his defense go the entire regular season sans the last game, not allowing any points by the opponent in the second half?
I'm no Marty apologist, but you need to put the pipe down before posting such nonsense.

The entire team got a performance bump when Reid came to town. That's not always the case depending upon who your ownership hires. But considering the pile of shit that Reid and Co. were replacing, it's highly unlikely that it would have gone any other way.
The difference is, one coach was able to continue to build upon what he was given, and the other coach was not.
You've been abdicating Sutton from any and all responsibility throughout this entire conversation. It's bullshit. That's HIS defense, and HE is responsible for it.
No one else.

[htismaqe]

Who is responsible for the defense? And are you really going to try and tell this board that "poor ol' Bob" just had to take what was given to him and make it work? That he had/has ZERO say in what defensive players the team is going to draft???



And now we couldn't possibly do any better than Bob Sutton; it's just not possible!
LMAO

Which year in Bob's Reign of Greatness did his defense go the entire regular season sans the last game, not allowing any points by the opponent in the second half?
I'm no Marty apologist, but you need to put the pipe down before posting such nonsense.

The entire team got a performance bump when Reid came to town. That's not always the case depending upon who your ownership hires. But considering the pile of shit that Reid and Co. were replacing, it's highly unlikely that it would have gone any other way.
The difference is, one coach was able to continue to build upon what he was given, and the other coach was not.
You've been abdicating Sutton from any and all responsibility throughout this entire conversation. It's bullshit. That's HIS defense, and HE is responsible for it.
No one else.

As I've said before, I hope they fire him. I just feel sorry for you guys that think it's going to solve anything.

[htismaqe]

Dee Ford and Breeland Speaks play the EXACT same position. They were both drafted by the same defensive coordinator.

Their skills sets are POLAR opposites.

But yeah, Bob Sutton is responsible. ROFL

[Pasta Little Brioni]

We've given up an insane amount of garbage time stats. Team has led 31-10 21-0 35-7 and 30-7 already this year. That's insane.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Biggest playoff collapses in history too. Again, he is not the whole problem, but he still sucks.

"Alex Smith is not the whole problem".

Well whaddaya' know; it turns out Alex Smith WAS the whole problem!

LMAO

[ChiefsFanatic]

Reggie Ragland is an atrocity, period. A run stopper has to be gap sound. He's terrible.Other than Dee Ford, I think we have the slowest linebackers in the NFL. When we picked him up someone told me that Ragland would bring some speed to the linebacking corp, but he is so damn slow. DJ coming off an achilles tendon injury was just as fast. Hitchens isn't exactly a speedster either.

And the All-22 or Coaches Film isn't out on game pass yet, but I know there were a few plays where Sutton had Speaks drop back in coverage, and that dude is pathetically slow. I feel like Sutton, or maybe Reid, is going to damage Speaks' career because with the weight he has gained, he should never play another snap without his hand on the ground. His body says Defensive Lineman, but the depth chart says he is a ROLB. JOKE.

Yes, it was a very good defensive performance against Bortles, but Bortles is like Fitzpatrick, in that when he throws a pick, there are usually a few more coming. And I know Fuller is probably our best corner, but I am starting to see why he was playing the slot. He doesn't seem to be very fast. He seems to get beat by a step or two on most deep routes.

To me, what makes Sutton a terrible DC, and honestly a bad coach in general, is that he doesn't put players in a position to succeed. Houston and Speaks cannot cover anyone in coverage. But since Sutton's defense says the LB drops in coverage on this play, he has whoever is in at that moment drop in coverage. There is not a single offensive player at RB or TE in this league that Houston or Speaks can cover or run with.

In a 3-4 defense, you better have a rock at Nose Tackle, and fast, agile linebackers because 3 down linemen cannot keep the offensive line away from the second level of the defense. You also need corners who excel in man coverage. I think the only 2 players we have that fit a 3-4 scheme are Jones and Bailey.

But Sutton calls plays for his defense and not for his players. No one will ever convince me that it's good football to have Houston cover any offensive player in pass coverage.

Sutton deserves credit for the defense's play yesterday, because he deserves the blame when the defense plays poorly, but the performance yesterday doesn't magically make him a good DC.

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[htismaqe]

"Alex Smith is not the whole problem".

Well whaddaya' know; it turns out Alex Smith WAS the whole problem!

LMAO

Alex Smith was a HUGE part of the problem. His style of play can infect an entire team.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

So glad they pissed away picks on Speaks and O Daniel

[htismaqe]

To me, what makes Sutton a terrible DC, and honestly a bad coach in general, is that he doesn't put players in a position to succeed. Houston and Speaks cannot cover anyone in coverage. But since Sutton's defense says the LB drops in coverage on this play, he has whoever is in at that moment drop in coverage. There is not a single offensive player at RB or TE in this league that Houston or Speaks can cover or run with.

Justin Houston was one of the best coverage linebackers in football in 2016 and 2017. Furthermore, if the scheme calls for LBs to cover, the freaking general manager should do everything in his power to get guys that fit the freaking scheme.

Sutton deserves credit for the defense's play yesterday, because he deserves the blame when the defense plays poorly, but the performance yesterday doesn't magically make him a good DC.


You've completely missed the point. Bob Sutton isn't a good DC. He isn't a bad DC. Like every other coach in the league, his success or failure is determined by the 11 guys that line up and play. His scheme led to the most successful 3 years of defense in the team's post-AFL history. That's not a value judgement, that is absolute statistical fact. Does that make Bob Sutton a great DC? Nope. It means that when this team had a healthy Berry, Poe, and Houston, they were dominant.

You guys can focus on Sutton all you want, it won't change anything. They can fire him. It won't change anything. It might make you feel better but it won't fix the defense.

Having good players will fix the defense, regardless of who the DC is.

[ChiefsFanatic]

Dee Ford and Breeland Speaks play the EXACT same position. They were both drafted by the same defensive coordinator.

Their skills sets are POLAR opposites.

But yeah, Bob Sutton is responsible. ROFLSutton isn't responsible for draft picks, he is responsible for putting the players he is given into the best possible position to succeed. He does not do that. He calls plays for his defense, regardless of personnel on the field.

It pisses me off that Reid credits Sutton when Denver and the Jags stop running the football. Denver averaged 7.2 yards per carry, but suddenly started throwing the football while up 10 in the fourth quarter.

And yesterday Yeldon was averaging a little over 5 yards per carry, but down 10 the Jags started passing. Yeldon had 10 carries. We are not good at stopping the run, but the Jags seemed to have no faith in their defense, or were afraid of injury, and Bortles end the game with 61 pass attempts. Again, Yeldon with only 10 carries.

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[philfree]

Bob's D has improved to 20th in ppg.

[htismaqe]

Sutton isn't responsible for draft picks, he is responsible for putting the players he is given into the best possible position to succeed. He does not do that. He calls plays for his defense, regardless of personnel on the field.

Wade Phillips doesn't do that either. You don't call an inferior scheme to accomodate inferior players. They either step up or you get new players.

[New World Order]

Time to unleash...

The Tanoh

[ChiefsFanatic]

You've completely missed the point. Bob Sutton isn't a good DC. He isn't a bad DC. Like every other coach in the league, his success or failure is determined by the 11 guys that line up and play. His scheme led to the most successful 3 years of defense in the team's post-AFL history. That's not a value judgement, that is absolute statistical fact.

That is not a statistical fact. I am not sure what stats you are referencing, but 1995 & 1997 are both better than any of Sutton's rankings. Throw in 1996 and it's the best 3 year run in team history post-merger.

1995 - #1 scoring #2 yardage
1996 - #11 scoring #18 yardage
1997 - #1 scoring #11 yardage

These rankings are verified on www.pro-football-reference.com

Sutton's rankings:
2013 - #5 scoring #24 yardage
2014 - #2 scoring #7 yardage
2015 - #3 scoring #7 yardage
2016 - #7 scoring #24 yardage
2017 - #15 scoring #28 yardage

Those are better for Sutton than I remembered, but they certainly aren't as good as 1995 and 1997.

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[ChiefsFanatic]

Wade Phillips doesn't do that either. You don't call an inferior scheme to accomodate inferior players. They either step up or you get new players.Are you saying Sutton is as good as Phillips?

I have said this in other threads, mainly the Reid is a Bad Coach thread, but the best thing I can say about Sutton is the Pittsburgh and Tennessee playoff losses are absolutely NOT the on the defense.

His defense absolutely played well enough to win those games.

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[ChiefsFanatic]

Time to unleash...

The TanohAfter watching him in college, I thought he was going to be great.

What do you think keeps him off the field?

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[Chris Meck]

Dee Ford and Breeland Speaks play the EXACT same position. They were both drafted by the same defensive coordinator.

Their skills sets are POLAR opposites.

But yeah, Bob Sutton is responsible. ROFL

I think they see him as Tamba pt.2. We can argue whether that'll ever come to pass, but that's the idea.

[Chris Meck]

I'm no Sutton fan. There is truth that the players are not executing-the tackling other than the first 3 quarters Sunday has been miserable, and that alone keeps this from being a middle of the pack defense.
I think there's way too much worrying about 3-4 vs. 4-3. We are rarely in a base defense anyway, it doesn't really matter.
As a base defense, yeah, it would seem that we have better personnel for a 4-3 but again-we're rarely in it.
I just would prefer to see a Bailey-Jones-Speaks rotation at DE, and a Houston, Ford, Kpass rotation at OLB. Nnadi and Williams rotating at Nose. Keep the big guys and rushers fresh. I want to see O'Daniel as the dimebacker. I want to see Watts and Lucas at S. I'd rather have young, hungry, fast kids making mistakes in the back end than vets that are just slow and lousy.

[rabblerouser]

I have been. I think he's done...fine.

It's a play absolutely nobody will remember but it was after Speaks came into the game. I started watching him because I wanted to see what he could do. Bortles drops back and looks to his left - Sutton had dialed up a zone blitz and had dropped back into the short zone that Bortles intended to throw into. He never saw that zone blitz coming and you could see him flinch. He turned to his right and just gacked the play (I think he threw it into someone's feet or even OOB).

It was a completely benign play that nobody will pay attention to because it worked in a conventional manner - just a simple failed play on defense. People will say Bortles just missed the pass but if you were watching the right space at the right time (I was, purely by accident) you saw a damn creative playcall work to perfection.

Sutton does this far far FAR more often than anyone will recognize. And while he now needs to work on some of his personnel groups - I think you need to be 4-5 games in to really make some of those calls and start shoveling dirt on guys, especially younger ones like Ragland, Murray or Nelson.

Some guys are getting better (Murray and Nelson) others aren't (Ragland). So you start to make different personnel decisions and keep building the defense up.

The D played solid football yesterday and I think Sutton actually called a hell of a game. He was dialing up safety blitzes, fire zones, stunts/twists to find space for someone as generally stiff as Williams.

Sutton is not a problem. He's a fine DC who's trying to feel his way through a roster with some holes. Could we do better at some point in the future? Yeah, very probably. But we could do a hell of a lot worse and we almost certainly would if we tried to pull the trigger right now. Sutton's done a credible job.

Oh, you and your...logic.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Sutton isn't responsible for draft picks, he is responsible for putting the players he is given into the best possible position to succeed. He does not do that. He calls plays for his defense, regardless of personnel on the field.

It pisses me off that Reid credits Sutton when Denver and the Jags stop running the football. Denver averaged 7.2 yards per carry, but suddenly started throwing the football while up 10 in the fourth quarter.

And yesterday Yeldon was averaging a little over 5 yards per carry, but down 10 the Jags started passing. Yeldon had 10 carries. We are not good at stopping the run, but the Jags seemed to have no faith in their defense, or were afraid of injury, and Bortles end the game with 61 pass attempts. Again, Yeldon with only 10 carries.

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Wade Phillips doesn't do that either. You don't call an inferior scheme to accomodate inferior players. They either step up or you get new players.

And now, finally, we arrive at the crux.

Since no one saw fit to answer my question regarding the responsibility of drafting, I will answer it myself:

Bob Sutton( and any other D-Coord working in tandem with an offensive-minded head coach )DOES IN FACT get a say about who the team is going to draft for his side of the ball. To believe otherwise is absurd.
And to call working with what you have to get the best possible result "calling an inferior scheme", shows an arrogance and intractability that is certainly NOT well-founded in proven, successful results for Mr. Sutton.
In other words, Bob doesn't get to have it both ways.
You either claim responsibility for the players you are working with( putting them in a position to succeed and using their god-given talents and strengths to the fullest extent possible ), or you continue trying to put a square peg in a round hole because you are "Bob Sutton, and this is the way you run your defense, no exceptions".

Gee Bob, we're so sorry. We'll run right out and get you a few 3-4 all stars so you can join the rest of the team on the top of the mountain.
Or, Bob, you can take your "Alex Smith's" and TRY to get somewhere in the middle of the rankings while we're working a few drafts to shore things up.

[rabblerouser]

As Thannon Tharpe said "they gave up clothe to 550 yds of offenthe to Jackthonville, blather blather blather...!"
FYP

[rabblerouser]

Let's engage in a thought experiment, Mr. ping2000.

Let's imagine that you are a pioneer and you are heading westward in your brand-new, covered wagon. Your young, beautiful wife and your infant child are in the back and you are driving the wagon. Now, let's say that your young, beautiful wife starts complaining incessantly about how long it's taking to arrive in California territory. You suddenly realize that there's a good chance that your young, beautiful wife doesn't really like the West and will likely divorce you as soon as you reach a decent-sized town. You also notice that one of the horses in your four-hitch is slower than all the others, okay?

Some people would encourage you to tell your wife to hush and behave herself rather than teach your child how to whine like a bitch. Others might suggest instead that you take your gun and shoot the slow horse. Still others might argue that the best course of action is to shoot yourself in the face.

The Chiefs' defensive problems are a lot like that.

FAX
ROFL

:clap:

ROFL

Still more ROFL

I got a great belly laugh out of that one, Mr FAX.

[Sannyasi]

Firing Sutton after last year's playoff game and replacing him with some up and comer would have actually been the right political move. It would have increased Reid's esteem with the fans and the media, and improved his job security (not that he needs any more job security).

The fact that he didn't replace Sutton at that point tells me that he actually thinks Sutton is the best man for the job, or at least that the risks of bringing in a fresh DC outweigh the potential benefits in his mind. That its worth it to him to take the hit from the fans in order to have continuity with the defense. You can say Reid is crazy or doesn't know shit about defense, but clearly he actually really believes in Sutton because he's had every opportunity to move on and we know after the Smith situation that Reid isn't going to stick with anyone out of loyalty.

[rabblerouser]

Other than Dee Ford, I think we have the slowest linebackers in the NFL. When we picked him up someone told me that Ragland would bring some speed to the linebacking corp, but he is so damn slow. DJ coming off an achilles tendon injury was just as fast. Hitchens isn't exactly a speedster either.

And the All-22 or Coaches Film isn't out on game pass yet, but I know there were a few plays where Sutton had Speaks drop back in coverage, and that dude is pathetically slow. I feel like Sutton, or maybe Reid, is going to damage Speaks' career because with the weight he has gained, he should never play another snap without his hand on the ground. His body says Defensive Lineman, but the depth chart says he is a ROLB. JOKE.

Yes, it was a very good defensive performance against Bortles, but Bortles is like Fitzpatrick, in that when he throws a pick, there are usually a few more coming. And I know Fuller is probably our best corner, but I am starting to see why he was playing the slot. He doesn't seem to be very fast. He seems to get beat by a step or two on most deep routes.

To me, what makes Sutton a terrible DC, and honestly a bad coach in general, is that he doesn't put players in a position to succeed. Houston and Speaks cannot cover anyone in coverage. But since Sutton's defense says the LB drops in coverage on this play, he has whoever is in at that moment drop in coverage. There is not a single offensive player at RB or TE in this league that Houston or Speaks can cover or run with.

In a 3-4 defense, you better have a rock at Nose Tackle, and fast, agile linebackers because 3 down linemen cannot keep the offensive line away from the second level of the defense. You also need corners who excel in man coverage. I think the only 2 players we have that fit a 3-4 scheme are Jones and Bailey.

But Sutton calls plays for his defense and not for his players. No one will ever convince me that it's good football to have Houston cover any offensive player in pass coverage.

Sutton deserves credit for the defense's play yesterday, because he deserves the blame when the defense plays poorly, but the performance yesterday doesn't magically make him a good DC.

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Defensive coordinators don't call plays; they call sets, alignments, and coverages.

The defense has to react to what the offense is doing. It's not as simple as "Houston shouldn't be in coverage"; opposing offenses scheme to get certain matchups, which is why versatility is so valuable, and too many Chiefs defensive players aren't versatile...or are, due to injury or general ineffective play for whatever reason, are a match up liability in pass coverage vs run support or vice versa...

[ChiefsFanatic]

And now, finally, we arrive at the crux.

Since no one saw fit to answer my question regarding the responsibility of drafting, I will answer it myself:

Bob Sutton( and any other D-Coord working in tandem with an offensive-minded head coach )DOES IN FACT get a say about who the team is going to draft for his side of the ball. To believe otherwise is absurd.
And to call working with what you have to get the best possible result "calling an inferior scheme", shows an arrogance and intractability that is certainly NOT well-founded in proven, successful results for Mr. Sutton.
In other words, Bob doesn't get to have it both ways.
You either claim responsibility for the players you are working with( putting them in a position to succeed and using their god-given talents and strengths to the fullest extent possible ), or you continue trying to put a square peg in a round hole because you are "Bob Sutton, and this is the way you run your defense, no exceptions".

Gee Bob, we're so sorry. We'll run right out and get you a few 3-4 all stars so you can join the rest of the team on the top of the mountain.
Or, Bob, you can take your "Alex Smith's" and TRY to get somewhere in the middle of the rankings while we're working a few drafts to shore things up.

I am sorry, I must have missed your question. If Sutton worked with Reid and Dorsey in helping choose defensive draft picks, he sucks even more than I thought.

The way in which Dorsey failed to improve our secondary and linebacking corps through the draft is one of the reasons I was glad to see him pushed out the door. Now, maybe we will have a Herm Edwards situation, and some of his draftees will develop into productive players in 3 more years, but I doubt it. Dee Ford may be the exception, but he was clueless the first couple of years.

Here is what we drafted defensively (Round/Overall Pick)

2013
Nico Johnson - LB - 4/99
Sander Commings - CB - 5/134
But this draft gave us Travis Kelce at 3/63 and of course, Fisher at 1/1

2014
Dee Ford - LB (listed as a DE) - 1/23
Phillip Gaines - CB - 3/87
But this draft gave us Laurent Duvernay-Tardif at 6/200

2015
Stephen Nelson - CB - 3/98
Ramik Wilson - LB - 4/118
DJ Alexander - LB - 5/172
Rakeem Nunez-Roches - DT - 6/217
But this draft gave us Marcus Peters at 1/18

2016
Chris Jones - DT - 2/37
KeiVarae Russell - CB - 3/74
Eric Murray - CB - 4/106
DJ White - CB - 6/178
Dadi Nicolas - LB - 6/203
But this draft gave us Tyreek Hill at 5/165

2017
Tanoh Kpassagnon - DE - 2/59
Ukeme Eligwe - LB - 5/183
Leon McQuay - S - 6/218
BUT THIS DRAFT GAVE US PATRICK MAHOMES AT 1/10 and Kareem Hunt at 3/86

I am not saying Dorsey missed superstar Corners or Linebackers, but overall his defensive track record is crappy at best.

Between 2013 and 2017 (I didn't include 2018 draft because it's too soon to pass judgment) we drafted 6 linebackers and of those six, only 1 is contributing in a significant way - Dee Ford

In that same time span we drafted 7 secondary players, and only 2 of them are contributing in a significant way - Nelson & Murray. I included Murray because of the INT on MNF, but more often than not he makes very little impact. Peters is one of the seven, but he isn't here anymore.

So, if Sutton had input into drafting defensive players, not only is he bad at evaluating talent, he doesn't understand what type of players he needs to run his defense.


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[rabblerouser]

I am sorry, I must have missed your question. If Sutton worked with Reid and Dorsey in helping choose defensive draft picks, he sucks even more than I thought.

The way in which Dorsey failed to improve our secondary and linebacking corps through the draft is one of the reasons I was glad to see him pushed out the door. Now, maybe we will have a Herm Edwards situation, and some of his draftees will develop into productive players in 3 more years, but I doubt it. Dee Ford may be the exception, but he was clueless the first couple of years.

Here is what we drafted defensively (Round/Overall Pick)

2013
Nico Johnson - LB - 4/99
Sander Commings - CB - 5/134
But this draft gave us Travis Kelce at 3/63 and of course, Fisher at 1/1

2014
Dee Ford - LB (listed as a DE) - 1/23
Phillip Gaines - CB - 3/87
But this draft gave us Laurent Duvernay-Tardif at 6/200

2015
Stephen Nelson - CB - 3/98
Ramik Wilson - LB - 4/118
DJ Alexander - LB - 5/172
Rakeem Nunez-Roches - DT - 6/217
But this draft gave us Marcus Peters at 1/18

2016
Chris Jones - DT - 2/37
KeiVarae Russell - CB - 3/74
Eric Murray - CB - 4/106
DJ White - CB - 6/178
Dadi Nicolas - LB - 6/203
But this draft gave us Tyreek Hill at 5/165

2017
Tanoh Kpassagnon - DE - 2/59
Ukeme Eligwe - LB - 5/183
Leon McQuay - S - 6/218
BUT THIS DRAFT GAVE US PATRICK MAHOMES AT 1/10 and Kareem Hunt at 3/86

I am not saying Dorsey missed superstar Corners or Linebackers, but overall his defensive track record is crappy at best.

Between 2013 and 2017 (I didn't include 2018 draft because it's too soon to pass judgment) we drafted 6 linebackers and of those six, only 1 is contributing in a significant way - Dee Ford

In that same time span we drafted 7 secondary players, and only 2 of them are contributing in a significant way - Nelson & Murray. I included Murray because of the INT on MNF, but more often than not he makes very little impact. Peters is one of the seven, but he isn't here anymore.

So, if Sutton had input into drafting defensive players, not only is he bad at evaluating talent, he doesn't understand what type of players he needs to run his defense.


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Sutton has very little, if any, say in who the Chiefs actually draft.

He MAY have some say as to who he prefers, and ReidVeach MAY actually take it into consideration when putting the draft board together...

But Sutton isn't in that draft room with ReidVeach when the players are drafted, so as players come off the board the whole thing changes after the first 5-7 picks, so the amount of impact Sutton can even possibly have in regards to the actual players chosen is minimal.

People are searching for reasons to not like Sutton, it's kind of stupid - Sutton doesn't have any real say in players drafted, and Defenses don't 'run plays'.

Goddamn, some people need to read more/post less.

And watch more football. Even when the offense isn't on the field.

[Chris Meck]

this just in: defensive drafts have been shitty.

[htismaqe]

Those are better for Sutton than I remembered, but they certainly aren't as good as 1995 and 1997.

1995 and 1997 aren't contiguous. ROFL

[htismaqe]

Bob Sutton( and any other D-Coord working in tandem with an offensive-minded head coach )DOES IN FACT get a say about who the team is going to draft for his side of the ball. To believe otherwise is absurd.

They drafted Dee Ford and then turned around and drafted Breeland Speaks.

It is MUCH more reasonable to believe Bob Sutton suddenly up and changed what he values in a pass rushing linebacker than to believe, Oh I don't know, that THEY CHANGED GENERAL MANAGERS...

ROFL

[htismaqe]

Firing Sutton after last year's playoff game and replacing him with some up and comer would have actually been the right political move. It would have increased Reid's esteem with the fans and the media, and improved his job security (not that he needs any more job security).

The fact that he didn't replace Sutton at that point tells me that he actually thinks Sutton is the best man for the job, or at least that the risks of bringing in a fresh DC outweigh the potential benefits in his mind. That its worth it to him to take the hit from the fans in order to have continuity with the defense. You can say Reid is crazy or doesn't know shit about defense, but clearly he actually really believes in Sutton because he's had every opportunity to move on and we know after the Smith situation that Reid isn't going to stick with anyone out of loyalty.

Yep.

The gauntlet ultimately falls at the feet of Andy Reid.

Bob Sutton is the fans' effigy du jour.

[O.city]

1995 and 1997 aren't contiguous. ROFL

And that's the problem.

Everytime something comes up about the Ol or the defense, it's compared to "95" or the "OL of the 2000s".

Well, no shit. Those were some of the best units at those spots ever. That's not gonna happen again and lets not worry about it.

[FAX]

1995 and 1997 aren't contiguous. ROFL

Be nice.

For some of us, they are. There are people in this world, Mr. htismaqe, who have no memory of 1996.

Whether or not it's a blessing is undetermined.

FAX

[GloryDayz]

Just one FG in either of those collapses and they're wins.

Bob Sutton can't fix Alex Smith anymore than he can fix Terrance Smith. Players either make plays or they don't.

Anybody that thinks a coach is the difference between "good" and "bad" in the NFL doesn't watch enough football.

Coaching can make "good" teams "great" and "bad" teams "awful". But no amount of coaching can make a "bad" team "good".You're being way to nice. When the asshole goes into his bend-then-snap defense, that's 100% on him. When he decides to rush too few and give the passer 6-8 seconds for the WRs to get open or draw a flag, that's on him. When he drops a LB into coverage for those 6-8 second schemes, that's on him. Even if they don't wrap up..

Sorry, he's terribad.

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[FAX]

It saddens me deeply to see great posters go bad.

Rush who? Who? Zombo? Dead Dee Ford? One-legged Hali? Justin Stumpy Houston? Wanna blitz the only safety available to cover the slant? I repeat; who?

Drop who else? Same list.

Guys ... we have crossed the boundary of irrationality here.

FAX

[htismaqe]

You're being way to nice. When the asshole goes into his bend-then-snap defense, that's 100% on him. When he decides to rush too few and give the passer 6-8 seconds for the WRs to get open or draw a flag, that's on him. When he drops a LB into coverage for those 6-8 second schemes, that's on him. Even if they don't wrap up..

Sorry, he's terribad.

Sent from my 9+ using Tapatalk

You need to watch more football, man.

Every team in the league runs prevent at times. Every team plays drop zones on 3rd and 15. Every team uses LBs in coverage.

The difference between the Chiefs and other teams is that other teams stay in their zones and tackle.

Players make plays.

[TambaBerry]

it doesn't make us wrong because we dislike Sutton, it also doesn't make you right because you think you know about football more then the rest of us. This is not a personal attack by the way this is just me making a statement. I think the Chiefs would be better off with a different DC, now that could be totally wrong but its still my opinion.

[htismaqe]

it doesn't make us wrong because we dislike Sutton, it also doesn't make you right because you think you know about football more then the rest of us. This is not a personal attack by the way this is just me making a statement. I think the Chiefs would be better off with a different DC, now that could be totally wrong but its still my opinion.

You're not wrong for disliking Sutton. You're entitled to an emotional opinion.

What is "wrong" is thinking that a new DC will fix this. A new DC might make everybody FEEL better and certainly, players might play better simply because of that.

But ultimately, defense in the NFL is about speed and instinct. Either you have the players or you don't. You won't find a single defense in the entire NFL that has crap players and is good simply because they're "coached up". That doesn't exist in the NFL. In college ball, sure but not in the NFL.

[GloryDayz]

You need to watch more football, man.

Every team in the league runs prevent at times. Every team plays drop zones on 3rd and 15. Every team uses LBs in coverage.

The difference between the Chiefs and other teams is that other teams stay in their zones and tackle.

Players make plays.

I watch as much as you, so stop. My problem isn't 3rd-and-15 (which we rarely enjoy), it that we play it in the "3rd-and-4th quarters", almost every down, if we have the lead.

[htismaqe]

I watch as much as you, so stop. My problem isn't 3rd-and-15 (which we rarely enjoy), it that we play it in the "3rd-and-4th quarters", almost every down, if we have the lead.

Other teams do that as well. It comes directly from Andy Reid.

[FAX]

it doesn't make us wrong because we dislike Sutton, it also doesn't make you right because you think you know about football more then the rest of us. This is not a personal attack by the way this is just me making a statement. I think the Chiefs would be better off with a different DC, now that could be totally wrong but its still my opinion.

I think you're onto something there, Mr. TambaBerry.

The conversation has turned into a discussion of persons ... or, perhaps, personalities. I appreciate your insight on the matter.

Look, I tend to love everybody (except morons and intentionally stupid people). On the other hand, I honestly believe I can objectively evaluate human beings (including morons) from a distance without getting overly sentimental or maudlin ... if I have sufficient material with which to work.

I've mentioned this before ... I've been arguing with Mellinger about this since last January. The defensive issues we all see (would be blind not to) are player- and talent-centric. Not scheme based. That's why scapegoating Uncle Bob seems so unfair to some of us. It's the old nose/face debate. Hate your face? Slice off your nose. Bad logic.

Take away Good Hali, Good DJ, EB, Houston's leg, etc., etc., etc., and your defense is going to decline. Dramatically.

My point is simple; the Sutton criticism is just off-target. Hate the cause. Not the poor bastard you've tasked to make super-sonic airplanes from globs of river mud.

If you want to blame somebody, I point you in the direction of John Dorsey.

FAX

[GloryDayz]

You're not wrong for disliking Sutton. You're entitled to an emotional opinion.

What is "wrong" is thinking that a new DC will fix this. A new DC might make everybody FEEL better and certainly, players might play better simply because of that.

But ultimately, defense in the NFL is about speed and instinct. Either you have the players or you don't. You won't find a single defense in the entire NFL that has crap players and is good simply because they're "coached up". That doesn't exist in the NFL. In college ball, sure but not in the NFL.

So they could bring me in, at 2/3s the price of Sutton, and you'd provide cover for me if we're still the worst D in the league? Because, well, I can't make the tackles for them?

At some point the coach has to held responsible for their team's on-field performance. If not, don't credit Andy with the offense. Because whatever Andy did with his O, Sutton should be able to do with his D. Even if it means getting naturally better tacklers.

[htismaqe]

I think you're onto something there, Mr. TambaBerry.

The conversation has turned into a discussion of persons ... or, perhaps, personalities. I appreciate your insight on the matter.

Look, I tend to love everybody (except morons and intentionally stupid people). On the other hand, I honestly believe I can objectively evaluate human beings (including morons) from a distance without getting overly sentimental or maudlin ... if I have sufficient material with which to work.

I've mentioned this before ... I've been arguing with Mellinger about this since last January. The defensive issues we all see (would be blind not to) are player- and talent-centric. Not scheme based. That's why scapegoating Uncle Bob seems so unfair to some of us. It's the old nose/face debate. Hate your face? Slice off your nose. Bad logic.

Take away Good Hali, Good DJ, EB, Houston's leg, etc., etc., etc., and your defense is going to decline. Dramatically.

My point is simple; the Sutton criticism is just off-target. Hate the cause. Not the poor bastard you've tasked to make super-sonic airplanes from globs of river mud.

If you want to blame somebody, I point you in the direction of John Dorsey.

FAX

I'd like to piggyback on this as well because I certainly don't have any emotional investment in this argument at all. I don't bear anybody here ill will at all and people are certainly entitled to their opinions. I know I come off overbearing at times - that's part of the reason I took a hiatus from this place. I don't actually enjoy being an arrogant a-hole, even though I often become one.

My only goal is actually to take the emotion out of it and look at the actual cause of the problem. There's no empirical evidence at all to support Sutton being the cause. Following the Chiefs from 2013 to now and taking that in combination with the stats CLEARLY points to a failure in the front office to address personnel problems on the defense.

If people want Sutton fired, I'm all for it. Fire him. I'm just not going to kid myself into thinking that's the solution to the problem. It isn't. Buddy Ryan himself couldn't make this unit good because they're not underperforming, they're just plain bad.

[htismaqe]

So they could bring me in, at 2/3s the price of Sutton, and you'd provide cover for me if we're still the worst D in the league? Because, well, I can't make the tackles for them?

At some point the coach has to held responsible for their team's on-field performance. If not, don't credit Andy with the offense. Because whatever Andy did with his O, Sutton should be able to do with his D. Even if it means getting naturally better tacklers.

Getting naturally better tacklers is Veach's job.

And to answer your question:

Absolutely I'd provide cover for you. I don't like scapegoating. I prefer to actually solve problems. :D

[Sassy Squatch]

Have no complaints with him over the past 2 weeks. Call the games like that and we should be good to go. Just please don't go into long stretches of prevent like that Steelers 2nd quarter.

[scho63]

Let's put one thing in perspective about our defense....

Our team has jumped out to leads in every game, except Denver, and other teams for the most part have thrown a LOT of passes at us.

Phyllis Rivers - 51 passes
Rapesmoreburgers - 60 passes
Gimpyrapalow - 30 passes
MentalCase Keenum - 33 passes
BortlesandJames - 61 passes

That's 47 passes per game average, 235 total, a hell of a lot of passes for any defense including the pass rushers. Only one team in the NFL, Indy Colts, have averaged more passing attempts versus their opponents than the Chiefs have had at them.

Most of the yards allowed have come late in the game during garbage time.

Our biggest weakness is ZERO run defense. Teams come out and gash the hell out of us and then we get even softer in the secondary than we already are. It's amazing the size and amount of gaping holes our D opens up for rushers. Why Denver ever abandoned the run is beyond me and they probably would have won had they stuck to that plan.

While our defense is certainly poor, it's still much better than what most people think. I wouldn't want to depend on our Defense to win a game for us and the great D this past weekend was a against a shitty Blake Bortles.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it........:harumph:

[RunKC]

Have no complaints with him over the past 2 weeks. Call the games like that and we should be good to go. Just please don't go into long stretches of prevent like that Steelers 2nd quarter.

Eric Murray not being out there to blow coverages and assignments like the Steelers game was nice!

[Sassy Squatch]

Eric Murray not being out there to blow coverages and assignments like the Steelers game was nice!
Just sucks it took an injury to get him off the field and it wasn't by choice when you had 2 better players on the depth chart. Whatever. If I'm Sutton I'm all over Veach to get me somebody to replace Ragland. That dude is legit awful and already lost almost all his playing time.

[GloryDayz]

Getting naturally better tacklers is Veach's job.

And to answer your question:

Absolutely I'd provide cover for you. I don't like scapegoating. I prefer to actually solve problems. :D

So why does Andy get so much love for our O's performance instead of Veach? I think it's odd how if it's bad, it's not the coach's fault, they don't play, but if they win it's that the coach is a genius.

[Sassy Squatch]

So why does Andy get so much love for our O's performance instead of Veach? I think it's odd how if it's bad, it's not the coach's fault, they don't play, but if they win it's that the coach is a genius.
Why would Veach get credit for the offense? The only thing he did was bring in Watkins, which admittedly isn't as bad of a move as I thought it was. He also gets a lions share of the credit for Mahomes, but seems like everyone was involved in that pick.

[htismaqe]

So why does Andy get so much love for our O's performance instead of Veach? I think it's odd how if it's bad, it's not the coach's fault, they don't play, but if they win it's that the coach is a genius.

There's 2 dynamics at play.

1. In the NFL, it's the offense dictates game plan. Defense is, by it's very nature, reactive. Scheming and scripting is far more important on the offensive side of the ball. So any offensive coach has the potential to have more impact than a defensive coach because playing defense is more about keeping pace, which in turn is about the players, their speed, and their football IQ.

2. The offense is UBER talented. In the NFL, when there's so much talent parity, it's coaching that takes a good team and makes them great. Andy takes a very, very talented offense and makes them great. On the flip side, you could put a guy like Marty Mohrningwg in charge of this offense and they're still going to be good because talent trumps coaching every time. Coaching is the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. You'd never fill a cake pan with icing and try to tell someone that it's a "good" cake because it isn't. A good coach cannot make a bad unit good. That simply is not possible in the NFL.

[htismaqe]

Why would Veach get credit for the offense? The only thing he did was bring in Watkins, which admittedly isn't as bad of a move as I thought it was. He also gets a lions share of the credit for Mahomes, but seems like everyone was involved in that pick.

Dorsey would get credit, of course. But I think it's better to say "general manager" than mention names, since there has been more than 1.

[GloryDayz]

Why would Veach get credit for the offense? The only thing he did was bring in Watkins, which admittedly isn't as bad of a move as I thought it was. He also gets a lions share of the credit for Mahomes, but seems like everyone was involved in that pick.

IDK, all I know is the coaches don't get blame, so I'm not sure why they get credit.

[htismaqe]

IDK, all I know is the coaches don't get blame, so I'm not sure why they get credit.

You're making it completely black and white. Don't be disingenuous.

[GloryDayz]

There's 2 dynamics at play.

1. In the NFL, it's the offense dictates game plan. Defense is, by it's very nature, reactive. Scheming and scripting is far more important on the offensive side of the ball. So any offensive coach has the potential to have more impact than a defensive coach because playing defense is more about keeping pace, which in turn is about the players, their speed, and their football IQ.

2. The offense is UBER talented. In the NFL, when there's so much talent parity, it's coaching that takes a good team and makes them great. Andy takes a very, very talented offense and makes them great. On the flip side, you could put a guy like Marty Mohrningwg in charge of this offense and they're still going to be good because talent trumps coaching every time. Coaching is the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. You'd never fill a cake pan with icing and try to tell someone that it's a "good" cake because it isn't. A good coach cannot make a bad unit good. That simply is not possible in the NFL.

Ah...

I guess we'll stay at the bottom of the league in defense because you can't teach tackling to kids after this many years either. I suspect the players know the basics of a form tackle and how to wrap up, they just work for an organization that allows it to continue. They get paid the same no mater what, right? That's pretty darn dynamic...

[FAX]

So why does Andy get so much love for our O's performance instead of Veach? I think it's odd how if it's bad, it's not the coach's fault, they don't play, but if they win it's that the coach is a genius.

Geez, man ... Veach has received tons of praise for the Mahomes pick. There are a dozen lengthy articles about how Veach discovered him, his relationship with Steinberg's group, how he pestered Wally with tape and texts and the like.

I haven't seen anyone (here or elsewhere) who has failed to credit Veach for championing the Mahomes deal. That's also one that I give to Dorsey for pulling the trigger.

Honestly, if we want to try and isolate that issue, I would probably argue that Wally is likely far more involved in selecting offensive players (like Kelce) whereas he's less involved on the defensive side of the ball. Of Wally's shortcomings, that's probably one of the big ones.

As for the "genius wins" and "idiots fail" factor, what else is new? It's been that way since the first caveman smacked himself in the eye socket with a chunk of mammoth leg bone.

FAX

[GloryDayz]

I don't care, after this many years of bad Ds, I'm ready to try somebody new as DC. Being a bottom feeder should bother the players, the team's leadership, the ownership, and all of the fans, and not just be an "oh well" sort of topic.

[htismaqe]

Ah...

I guess we'll stay at the bottom of the league in defense because you can't teach tackling to kids after this many years either. I suspect the players know the basics of a form tackle and how to wrap up, they just work for an organization that allows it to continue. They get paid the same no mater what, right? That's pretty darn dynamic...

The know how to form tackle but just choose not to? LOL

[htismaqe]

I don't care, after this many years of bad Ds, I'm ready to try somebody new as DC. Being a bottom feeder should bother the players, the team's leadership, the ownership, and all of the fans, and not just be an "oh well" sort of topic.

This many years?

In Reid's first 4 years they were 7th, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th in scoring defense.

This what I'm talking about. You're emoting, not thinking.

This team is 5-0 and currently the toast of the league. But because the defense isn't "gleamy" enough for you, they're "bottom feeders". :facepalm:

[FAX]

I don't care, after this many years of bad Ds, I'm ready to try somebody new as DC. Being a bottom feeder should bother the players, the team's leadership, the ownership, and all of the fans, and not just be an "oh well" sort of topic.

Personally, I love great defense (I am a Chiefs fan, after all). I am a defensive homer through and through. It's gone, though. The way it used to be is no more and probably never will be again.

The NFL wants lots of scoring (because it equates to better ratings), so offense gets the rules and defense gets the shaft. That's the way it is.

But does that mean we should say "oh well" and be satisfied with the way this defense is performing? I say "No! By God, No!" Then I say, "Aaggaghhh!". IMO, our defense has sucked in very obvious areas ... particularly against the run, safety play, and our tackling is definitely awful. (The fact that tackling sucks league-wide is another discussion and no excuse, in my view.)

We need better players but we don't have them (as far as we know). All Uncle Bob can do is try and play the hand he's dealt and I don't envy him that job. At all.

I don't believe for a moment that people (like me) who are pushing back on the Fire Sutton cry are satisfied with poor defensive play. And I don't think we're making excuses. I try to see things objectively and make a distinction between the cause and the disease.

We have a disease, but the cause isn't "Sutton". And the cure isn't "Fire Sutton". That's the point I try to get across.

FAX

[philfree]

Ah...

I guess we'll stay at the bottom of the league in defense because you can't teach tackling to kids after this many years either. I suspect the players know the basics of a form tackle and how to wrap up, they just work for an organization that allows it to continue. They get paid the same no mater what, right? That's pretty darn dynamic...

We're not at the bottom. We need to be better but we're 20th in points allowed right now.

[htismaqe]

We're not at the bottom. We need to be better but we're 20th in points allowed right now.

Points allowed don't matter. They're not Gunther Strong so they suck.

[GloryDayz]

This many years?

In Reid's first 4 years they were 7th, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th in scoring defense.

This what I'm talking about. You're emoting, not thinking.

This team is 5-0 and currently the toast of the league. But because the defense isn't "gleamy" enough for you, they're "bottom feeders". :facepalm:

You're excusing a bottom-feeding D. How long since our epic loss to Indy? Jan 4th, 2014? They gave up a 28-point lead in 2014... Yeah, that's years.

https://www.foxsports.com/buzzer/story/kansas-city-chiefs-epic-collapse-summed-up-in-three-sad-tweets-by-team-010414

[GloryDayz]

Personally, I love great defense (I am a Chiefs fan, after all). I am a defensive homer through and through. It's gone, though. The way it used to be is no more and probably never will be again.

The NFL wants lots of scoring (because it equates to better ratings), so offense gets the rules and defense gets the shaft. That's the way it is.

But does that mean we should say "oh well" and be satisfied with the way this defense is performing? I say "No! By God, No!" Then I say, "Aaggaghhh!". IMO, our defense has sucked in very obvious areas ... particularly against the run, safety play, and our tackling is definitely awful. (The fact that tackling sucks league-wide is another discussion and no excuse, in my view.)

We need better players but we don't have them (as far as we know). All Uncle Bob can do is try and play the hand he's dealt and I don't envy him that job. At all.

I don't believe for a moment that people (like me) who are pushing back on the Fire Sutton cry are satisfied with poor defensive play. And I don't think we're making excuses. I try to see things objectively and make a distinction between the cause and the disease.

We have a disease, but the cause isn't "Sutton". And the cure isn't "Fire Sutton". That's the point I try to get across.

FAX

I'm not asking for the #1 D, I never said that, but we're getting a recurring bottom feeder instead.

[GloryDayz]

We're not at the bottom. We need to be better but we're 20th in points allowed right now.

Here's the "Total" defense. It looks like we're in the lower half of the bottom third.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense

[htismaqe]

You're excusing a bottom-feeding D. How long since our epic loss to Indy? Jan 4th, 2014? They gave up a 28-point lead in 2014... Yeah, that's years.

https://www.foxsports.com/buzzer/story/kansas-city-chiefs-epic-collapse-summed-up-in-three-sad-tweets-by-team-010414

Alex Smith mustered a whole 6 points after the Colts scored their first touchdown of the game. SIX. And he fumbled right into one of their 4th quarter scores.

There's plenty of blame to go around that game. If that's what you're clinging to to suggest Bob has been bad "for years", you're once again emoting and not being rational.

[htismaqe]

I'm not asking for the #1 D, I never said that, but we're getting a recurring bottom feeder instead.

Nope.

Not a recurring bottom feeder. This year is the first they've been in the lowest quarter of defensive percentages, and even then it's only in yardage.

In case you haven't noticed, the entire NFL is giving up huge chunks of yardage.

[ChiefsCountry]

Here's the "Total" defense. It looks like we're in the lower half of the bottom third.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense

We give up a bunch of yards. That is because we are way the fuck ahead the whole game and they have to play catch up. Points allowed is the only stat that matters when it comes to defense.

[FAX]

I'm not asking for the #1 D, I never said that, but we're getting a recurring bottom feeder instead.

I never said you said that before you said that and I still haven't said it.

Are we "bottom feeders"? Maybe. Maybe not.

On the other hand, if the fishkeeper has nothing but Plaice in his aquarium because all his Fantail Guppy's fins fell off, what's a guy supposed to do?

FAX

[philfree]

Here's the "Total" defense. It looks like we're in the lower half of the bottom third.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense

Total Defense? You mean yards? I don't care about yards as much as points. And a lot of those yards are garbage yards because we had a huge lead.

[DJ's left nut]

We give up a bunch of yards. That is because we are way the fuck ahead the whole game and they have to play catch up. Points allowed is the only stat that matters when it comes to defense.

The NFL average is around 7.1 yards per pass and teams are throwing the ball damn near 50 times/gm against us. We're gonna give up yards, fellas. A shitload of them, in fact.

I do think that long term, yards allowed is a more reliably predictive measure than points allowed and that's of some concern. We won't continue to get 5 turnovers and that many sacks to suppress our points totals. But we'll probably continue to give up a lot of yards.

The hope is that, as has been the case thus far, those yards come when the game is decided. The defense has come up strong in big ways several times this year and there are signs that it's going to continue to improve. If the last 2 weeks are a baseline of what the defense can do, that's enough to win with.

That said - I'd probably sit Houston this week and just be prepared to take a whupin' on D. See if Mahomes can outscore Brady and get Houston healthy. The last thing we need is another Berry situation (or another Houston from '16 situation). Get him right and move forward. I'd rather not lose this game but winning in Foxboro is a tough ask either way and if we do, it won't be because of the D anyway.

[Lzen]

It's very simple - you are putting WAY too much emphasis on coaching. I'm not saying Sutton is good or bad, I'm saying he's irrelevant. A good coach CANNOT make a bad unit good. It's impossible.

Until they fix the personnel on this defense, there isn't a coach on the face of the planet that can fix things.

You are correct to a certain extent. You're correct in that a great coordinator can't make bad talent into a great defense. That being said, I believe a great coordinator can make a mediocre defense good and a good defensive coordinator can make a good defense great. So by that measure, the coordinator is not irrelevant.

As for this current crop of talent, I believe that a couple of changes could make a drastic improvement. A healthy Berry and a better player to replace Terrance Smith (#48) would do just that, IMO. Is the rookie Dorian O'Daniel that player? I don't know but I hope so. Still, rookies take time to learn to play at this level, to stop thinking all the time and just play. That's also, IMO, a big part of the reason that Speaks hasn't shown much as of yet. But he looked better against the Jags than he has in any game so far. That says to me that he's getting better. People just need to be patient. I think we have some decent young talent that will start to show up a lot more in the 2nd half of the season.

[htismaqe]

You are correct to a certain extent. You're correct in that a great coordinator can't make bad talent into a great defense. That being said, I believe a great coordinator can make a mediocre defense good and a good defensive coordinator can make a good defense great. So by that measure, the coordinator is not irrelevant.

But this isn't a mediocre defense. It's actually pretty bad. Replace Terrance Smith and Reggie Ragland and if the defense is still this bad, fire Sutton. Go for it. But right now, getting rid of Sutton isn't solving anything.

Furthermore, they can't just bring anyone in. Andy is sitting on the bench talking to Mahomes while the defense is on the field. He's COMPLETELY hands off. You've got to make a change like this in the offseason.

[GloryDayz]

Alex Smith mustered a whole 6 points after the Colts scored their first touchdown of the game. SIX. And he fumbled right into one of their 4th quarter scores.

There's plenty of blame to go around that game. If that's what you're clinging to to suggest Bob has been bad "for years", you're once again emoting and not being rational.

2014-2018 is "years", right?

Maybe you're trying to play the cool-minded fan act a little too much and letting that act get in the way of placing blame on all of the people who have earned it.

It's all good, if you're fine with Sutton I'm sure Andy will think you're right.

[htismaqe]

2014-2018 is "years", right?

Maybe you're trying to play the cool-minded fan act a little too much and letting that act get in the way of placing blame on all of the people who have earned it.

It's all good, if you're fine with Sutton I'm sure Andy will think you're right.

I'm not fine with Sutton. I actually DO blame all of the people that have earned it.

And there's at least 3 people in line AHEAD of Sutton. That's the problem I have here.

[GloryDayz]

Nope.

Not a recurring bottom feeder. This year is the first they've been in the lowest quarter of defensive percentages, and even then it's only in yardage.

In case you haven't noticed, the entire NFL is giving up huge chunks of yardage.

I guess 32nd out of 32 means little. Right? Dead last is the new middle of the pack...

[htismaqe]

2014-2018 is "years", right?

Maybe you're trying to play the cool-minded fan act a little too much and letting that act get in the way of placing blame on all of the people who have earned it.

It's all good, if you're fine with Sutton I'm sure Andy will think you're right.

By the way, in 2014 and 2015 they were one of the best defenses in the league. So you're once again emoting instead of thinking.

[FAX]

The NFL average is around 7.1 yards per pass and teams are throwing the ball damn near 50 times/gm against us. We're gonna give up yards, fellas. A shitload of them, in fact.

I do think that long term, yards allowed is a more reliably predictive measure than points allowed and that's of some concern. We won't continue to get 5 turnovers and that many sacks to suppress our points totals. But we'll probably continue to give up a lot of yards.

The hope is that, as has been the case thus far, those yards come when the game is decided. The defense has come up strong in big ways several times this year and there are signs that it's going to continue to improve. If the last 2 weeks are a baseline of what the defense can do, that's enough to win with.

That said - I'd probably sit Houston this week and just be prepared to take a whupin' on D. See if Mahomes can outscore Brady and get Houston healthy. The last thing we need is another Berry situation (or another Houston from '16 situation). Get him right and move forward. I'd rather not lose this game but winning in Foxboro is a tough ask either way and if we do, it won't be because of the D anyway.

I couldn't agree more.

I don't want to count this game as a loss in advance, though.

Actually, I'm looking forward to a true shootout (NE's defense ain't "all that") for once. Mahomes vs. Brady. Kelce vs. Gronk. Watkins vs. Edelman. Hill vs. Gordon. Hunt vs. Michel. Points vs. More Points.

That has the makings of a great game.

FAX

[htismaqe]

I guess 32nd out of 32 means little. Right? Dead last is the new middle of the pack...

That's 5 games into a single year.

You said "recurring". You do know what the definition of "recurring" is, right?

[GloryDayz]

That's 5 games into a single year.

You said "recurring". You do know what the definition of "recurring" is, right?

OK, enjoy our defense... I'll keep getting nervous whenever "Sutton's kids" take to the turf... They'll get better, that's the only direction to they have right now.

[The Franchise]

OK, enjoy our defense... I'll keep getting nervous whenever "Sutton's kids" take to the turf... They'll get better, that's the only direction to they have right now.

And when they do get better.....you'll still bitch.

[htismaqe]

OK, enjoy our defense... I'll keep getting nervous whenever "Sutton's kids" take to the turf... They'll get better, that's the only direction to they have right now.

Again, you prove my point.

I don't "enjoy" this defense. At all.

I'm just not interested in finding a scapegoat in lieu of actually fixing the problem.

[htismaqe]

And when they do get better.....you'll still bitch.

Because the defense getting better doesn't matter, firing Bob Sutton does. SOMEBODY HAS TO PAY!

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2F26gJz7vrNd95sT4jK%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1

[GloryDayz]

And when they do get better.....you'll still bitch.

Perhaps.

[Titty Meat]

I expect this thread will get alot of activity after next week since the Patriots love to cause mismatches on backers and we dont have 1 who can cover. That will be Suttons fault.

[FAX]

I expect this thread will get alot of activity after next week since the Patriots love to cause mismatches on backers and we dont have 1 who can cover. That will be Suttons fault.

Brady will probably rip this defense a new one.

I'm expecting Mahomes to rip them two.

The Pats will have a bunch of new ones before he's done.

FAX

[GloryDayz]

I expect this thread will get alot of activity after next week since the Patriots love to cause mismatches on backers and we dont have 1 who can cover. That will be Suttons fault.

No, it'll be Veach's fault. You never blame a coach, they're victims of the GM.

[Titty Meat]

No, it'll be Veach's fault. You never blame a coach, they're victims of the GM.

I'm not a Veach fan but he gets 2 more years atleast.

[GloryDayz]

I'm not a Veach fan but he gets 2 more years atleast.

He doesn't play either. You can't blame him much either. He hired people to tackle, they're just opting out of that part of their job.