It’s official: Pats were always Tom Brady. Not Bill Belichick.

[Prison Bitch]

Bill falls to 2-4 without Brady.

Brady goes to 5-2 with Tampa, turning them into a title contender immediately.

Tampa had the #1 SRS (points above avg team) in the NFL of +13.1. And that was before they trashed the Fighting Chuckies today.

[htismaqe]

The NFL revolves around QB's. It's pretty easy to see.

[FloridaMan88]

Belichick is a career sub .500 HC without Brady.

The “Faketriots Way” bullshit has been confirmed as nothing more than winning with a HOF QB (nothing unique about that).

And all of the Faketriots “fans” who posted shit on this board... including Assnorix have been exposed as bandwagoning frauds and have vanished.

[CarlosCarson27]

Oh, shut, up....

[Halfcan]

Games are harder for the Pats without their weekly tapes of practices of their next opponent.

[Prison Bitch]

Belichick is a career sub .500 HC without Brady.

The “Faketriots Way” bullshit has been confirmed as nothing more than winning with a HOF QB (nothing unique about that).

And all of the Faketriots “fans” who posted shit on this board... including Assnorix have been exposed as bandwagoning frauds and have vanished.



This. And allll this^

[St. Patty's Fire]

Yes it’s official after six games

If the Pats are bad for Three years straight maybe the arguments can begin.

It’s not like Brady went to a shit team with no talent and they’re all of the sudden good. Bucs have had talent but Winston is volatile. Did we forget that like half the Pats D opted out?

[Red Dawg]

Brady is a very good QB but he is not so great he was the driving force for the 6 wins. Bill was and cheating was fin early 2000's. Brady get far too much credit for those.

[PHOG]

Games are harder for the Pats without their weekly tapes of practices of their next opponent.
Maybe Brady's actually the guilty orchestrator of the cheating. :hmmm:

Should the league be watching the Bucs film crew now? Hmmm?

[Chieftain]

Brady would not have the success he's had without Belichik. Similarly, Belichik would not have the success he's had without Brady. It was a perfect marriage. Genius defensive coach + clutch playoff QB. Maybe that's the formula we should follow when Andy retires. Hire the best defensive mind available and get a competent OC to script plays for Pat.

[Prison Bitch]

Brady would not have the success he's had without Belichik. .

Oh bullshit.

[CarlosCarson27]

If this were a real issue. It's a stupid argument. Jocks can't do weekly game plans or know what to look for globally- game prep wise. They do what they're told.
Put brady on the jets, see how good he is.

[Deberg_1990]

Bill falls to 2-4 without Brady.

Brady goes to 5-2 with Tampa, turning them into a title contender immediately.

Tampa had the #1 SRS (points above avg team) in the NFL of +13.1. And that was before they trashed the Fighting Chuckies today.

Well duh....

/91-95 Cleveland Browns

[Bewbies]

Lets see when Belichick is above .500 without Brady. It'll be awhile.

[Bewbies]

Well duh....

/91-95 Cleveland Browns

Duh, this is the Ravens now.

They won it all not long after Bill left.

[CarlosCarson27]

I guess you can't blame Cam because that would be racist, huh?

[tredadda]

Its really hard to say with NE having players opt out and Brady going to a stacked TB team. I will say that they have both greatly benefitted from each other.

I do believe the "Patriot Way" only works with a HOF QB, without Brady they can't afford to add bargain bin talent and expect to dominate. On that same note I would be more impressed if Brady had been successful on a far less talented team.

[crayzkirk]

Behind every great QB is a coach willing to take the credit.

The Bucs are loaded with talent. It's what happens when you consistently draft near the top of each round for years.

Brady has lots of experience and a ton of talent around him. He always had an above average defense. The Patriots are missing a big chunk of players and Cam isn't going to take them anywhere; he has the physical skills, just none of the mental ones.

[NWTF]

As of today it looks like Brady. Tampa has a pretty well rounded team overall.

Also BB took a significant downgrade at QB.
Newton is a huge downgrade. If he cant get me 100+ yds moving the chains on the ground hes useless at QB for me.
At one point mid 2nd qtr or later he was 3-6, 30 yards, 1 INT.

[Rasputin]

Yes it’s official after six games

If the Pats are bad for Three years straight maybe the arguments can begin.

It’s not like Brady went to a shit team with no talent and they’re all of the sudden good. Bucs have had talent but Winston is volatile. Did we forget that like half the Pats D opted out?



Yeah like Hightower and I'd say I'm glad he opted out but this is not a typical year to draw conclusions. I'd say Hightower is the bigger loss to the Patriots than Tom Brady and teams didn't get their offseason sessions in that would have been paramount for players going to new teams.

Fuck Patriots and fuck Tom Brady I hope they both lose outright.

[O.city]

He hasn’t drafted worth a shit for a while either

[Prison Bitch]

This is going to kill Hoodie’s legacy.

[Deberg_1990]

Trevor Lawrence to the Pats?

[TwistedChief]

They're actually both really good at their jobs.

[kcclone]

It was booth of them. I think Brady could have won 1-2 rings with any other decent franchise.

I can't say the same thing about Belicheck because the QB is so important. But for them to win 6, it isn't one or the other, but the combination of both (along with cheating!).

[Prison Bitch]

They're actually both really good at their jobs.

2-4 is good?

Losing record without Brady is good?

[tredadda]

This is going to kill Hoodie’s legacy.

If they play like this next year I would agree. He will get a pass this year because of COVID opt outs and no preseason.

[Megatron96]

Nah. Bill>Brady.

All you have to do is imagine Brady going to the Jets/Browns/Bucs or whoever when he was drafted and you have your answer. Bill created the culture and the lockerroom in NE, brought in a 7th round gangly game-manager QB and forged him into a good QB. Hell, he did the same thing with Bledsoe before Brady.

[tredadda]

It was booth of them. I think Brady could have won 1-2 rings with any other decent franchise.

I can't say the same thing about Belicheck because the QB is so important. But for them to win 6, it isn't one or the other, but the combination of both (along with cheating!).

Neither wins six without the other one.

[Prison Bitch]

Nah. Bill>Brady.

All you have to do is imagine Brady going to the Jets/Browns/Bucs or whoever when he was drafted and you have your answer. Bill created the culture and the lockerroom in NE, brought in a 7th round gangly game-manager QB and forged him into a good QB. Hell, he did the same thing with Bledsoe before Brady.

Bucs were 5-11 and 7-9 last two years.

[tredadda]

Nah. Bill>Brady.

All you have to do is imagine Brady going to the Jets/Browns/Bucs or whoever when he was drafted and you have your answer. Bill created the culture and the lockerroom in NE, brought in a 7th round gangly game-manager QB and forged him into a good QB. Hell, he did the same thing with Bledsoe before Brady.

That culture only works with a HOF QB. That's one of the reasons every assistant that leaves NE fails trying to implement the "Patriot Way".

[PAChiefsGuy]

No head coach can make chicken salad out of chicken shit. Brady vs BB is a player vs HC, which is an unfair comparison. Coaches don't play the game, they coach so of course the players playing will have a bigger impact..

Brady is in a great situation, BB not so much. Pats don't have the talent to be good this season, the Bucs do. Don't forget Pats had a couple players opt out for COVID and lost a QB who has been with them for over a decade.

BB is still the GOAT HC as far as I am concerned. They may have a bad season but it doesn't mean BB is a bad coach. BB the GM on the other hand is another story...

[Red Dawg]

Pats had too many opt outs and Cam sucks. Brady is on a team so talented he can't lose much. Only injuries will derail them.

[Megatron96]

That culture only works with a HOF QB. That's one of the reasons every assistant that leaves NE fails trying to implement the "Patriot Way".

Bill still won nearly twice as many games as he lost when he had to start someone else besides Brady.

Brady would've been a "one-and-done" QB if he'd gone to a bottom tier organization.

[Prison Bitch]

Oh this is funny as f***.

Bucs were just LOADED! That’s it. That must be it. Suuuure.

[KC_Connection]

They’re both overrated cheating frauds but I hate Brady more so I went with Belichick.

[tk13]

Bill the GM is probably the bigger issue here than Bill the coach or Brady the QB. If you gave Belichick the Bucs LB group they'd be looking like the 86 Giants out there right now.

[Bl00dyBizkitz]

Oh this is funny as f***.

Bucs were just LOADED! That’s it. That must be it. Suuuure.

I mean. It's a hell of a lot better situation town in Tampa. Can you seriously not handle any other opinion outside your own?

[Third Eye]

I mean. It's a hell of a lot better situation town in Tampa. Can you seriously not handle any other opinion outside your own?

You must be new here.

[NWTF]

Bill still won nearly twice as many games as he lost when he had to start someone else besides Brady.

Brady would've been a "one-and-done" QB if he'd gone to a bottom tier organization.

It'll need to play itself out. Who can win without the other. As HC Bill has time on his side once Bradys days are over.

[Prison Bitch]

I mean. It's a hell of a lot better situation town in Tampa. Can you seriously not handle any other opinion outside your own?


Look at the results buddy. This ain’t “opinion” as of today.

[O.city]

Coaching only goes so far then you need talent

It’s a weird year with all the covid stuff so I won’t really hold that against him.

But yeah, I’d think the qb is more important to the coach than vice versa

[IowaHawkeyeChief]

They have a shadow of their defense with guys opting out for Covid-19... I think it was a combo as we see Reid doing great things with a true Great QB. To be fair, other coach's could ruin great QBs and they never are as good as they should have been...

[alpha_omega]

Not official. Post again if TBDouche wins another SB.

[St. Patty's Fire]

2-4 is good?

Losing record without Brady is good?

You are so stupid it is actually painful

[jerryaldini]

Bill still won nearly twice as many games as he lost when he had to start someone else besides Brady.

Brady would've been a "one-and-done" QB if he'd gone to a bottom tier organization.

Sorry meant to upvote this!

[BWillie]

Not sure I agree. Brady was one of the worst QBs in the league last year and they had a historic defense. He sure looks rejuvenated this year but theres no getting around how bad he was last yr.

I say 60% Brady, 40% Belicheat

[Prison Bitch]

Not official. Post again if TBDouche wins another SB.


So that applies to Hoody too. Right?

[tredadda]

Bill still won nearly twice as many games as he lost when he had to start someone else besides Brady.

Brady would've been a "one-and-done" QB if he'd gone to a bottom tier organization.

You mean the Cassel year? That team went 16-0 the year prior. That team wasn't a bunch of scrubs.

[BWillie]

Bucs were 5-11 and 7-9 last two years.

And started Jameis Winston. Who is a complete idiot and interception waiting to happen.

[CarlosCarson27]

Lol at trying to find fault with a guy after 20 years of owning your ass. It's a little too Fucking late.

[Prison Bitch]

Lol at trying to find fault with a guy after 20 years of owning your ass. It's a little too ****ing late.

Bill is 3-4 vs KC since Andy arrived. Some “ownage” lately.

[CarlosCarson27]

Bill is 3-4 vs KC since Andy arrived. Some “ownage” lately.

Lol see what I mean? I'm talking about the nfl and 20 years. Not your lowly ass

[Megatron96]

You mean the Cassel year? That team went 16-0 the year prior. That team wasn't a bunch of scrubs.

Cassel. Who was actually a better athlete than Brady.

Jimmy G. started two games as a Pat and won both.

Think there was at least one more guy that started a game or two and had an even record or a winning one.

Look, I'm not saying that Belichick would've led the Pats to all those conference championships or SB titles, but there's really no denying that they have had a pretty good system over there and you could insert almost any decent QB in there and win some games.

Yeah, they've almost always had a good to great defense, and a set of decent weapons' but every team would need some combination of the above to win. Football is the ultimate team sport, so that makes sense.

Brady is a product of the system he was in. He didn't create it. He didn't coach those defenses to be what they were. Heck, for the first couple years of his career as a Pat he was basically only a game-manager. He certainly wasn't anything special. Brady grew into becoming a great QB.

[ThyKingdomCome15]

Patriots have no recievers. Brady struggled last year.

[ThaVirus]

Oh this is funny as f***.

Bucs were just LOADED! That’s it. That must be it. Suuuure.

They were a talented team in need of a consistent QB. It's a very similar situation to the one Manning found in Denver.

Also, helps when you drop a HOF QB on any roster.

[Rain Man]

I hope neither team wins another game all season.

Brady is a 6th round quarterback who is on a strong team and has a lot of starting experience to learn. Ryan Fitzpatrick would do just as well in Tampa.

Belichick is a cheater who doesn't draft well and is now paying for it.

[KC_Connection]

I hope neither team wins another game all season.

Brady is a 6th round quarterback who is on a strong team and has a lot of starting experience to learn. Ryan Fitzpatrick would do just as well in Tampa.

Belichick is a cheater who doesn't draft well and is now paying for it.

Accurate. Both overrated cheating frauds who don’t deserve respect.

[JD10367]

It’s easy to say Brady but you won’t win ANY games with a QB throwing for 90 yards and 3 picks. If Belichick has a half decent QB he’s only got 1 or 2 losses right now.

[Buehler445]

Fuck all things Cheatriot

[Buehler445]

It’s easy to say Brady but you won’t win ANY games with a QB throwing for 90 yards and 3 picks. If Belichick has a half decent QB he’s only got 1 or 2 losses right now.

Stidham is his guy he drafted. He picked up Cam to roll with over his guy. There were a lot of options this offseason. Hell a good look (For the sake of this discussion) would have been to get Rapist Winston. Phyllis was available. Bridgewater, who I think is decent. Reviving Daltons career would Have been a similar feat to Cam.

The defensive guys opting out sucks. But the offense is all him man.

[RunKC]

Bucs were 5-11 and 7-9 last two years.

The Bucs were loaded with talent last year. They just had a shit QB holding them back.

We’ve seen teams with a lot of talent look worse than they really are due to QB situation. May I introduce you to the 2012 Chiefs?

[htismaqe]

Stidham is his guy he drafted. He picked up Cam to roll with over his guy. There were a lot of options this offseason. Hell a good look (For the sake of this discussion) would have been to get Rapist Winston. Phyllis was available. Bridgewater, who I think is decent. Reviving Daltons career would Have been a similar feat to Cam.

The defensive guys opting out sucks. But the offense is all him man.

Yup.

Brady may win another SB. Bill will never win another SB.

[Titty Meat]

Yup.

Brady may win another SB. Bill will never win another SB.

That's a pretty strong statement not sure I agree because we dont know who he will get at QB. Also he had like 8 guys on defense opt out this year.

[Pointer19]

The sports title Tom Terrific already belongs to Tom Seaver of the 1969 Mets, not that mouth-kissing hack down in Tampa.

[htismaqe]

That's a pretty strong statement not sure I agree because we dont know who he will get at QB. Also he had like 8 guys on defense opt out this year.

You think the guy that was in love with Stidham and Garropolo is going to have another Tom Brady fall into his lap?

The NFL is all about QB's. Bill will never win shit without Brady.

[Titty Meat]

You think the guy that was in love with Stidham and Garropolo is going to have another Tom Brady fall into his lap?

The NFL is all about QB's. Bill will never win shit without Brady.

Garrropolo isnt bad and he traded him. You never know who could fall into his lap.

[PAChiefsGuy]

Stidham is his guy he drafted. He picked up Cam to roll with over his guy. There were a lot of options this offseason. Hell a good look (For the sake of this discussion) would have been to get Rapist Winston. Phyllis was available. Bridgewater, who I think is decent. Reviving Daltons career would Have been a similar feat to Cam.

The defensive guys opting out sucks. But the offense is all him man.

There's a difference between BB the GM and BB the HC. BB the HC, not his fault talent level of that offense.

Even w Brady you don't win 6 SBs as a HC by accident, the guy is at worst a HOF HC to say Pats are all Brady or all BB is an insult to both of them. They both are great at what they do and were a deadly combo similar to Mahomes and Reid.

[Mahomes_Is_God]

Don't care. Fuck hoodie and fuck the peadophile.

[htismaqe]

There's a difference between BB the GM and BB the HC. BB the HC, not his fault talent level of that offense.

Even w Brady you don't win 6 SBs as a HC by accident, the guy is at worst a HOF HC to say Pats are all Brady or all BB is an insult to both of them. They both are great at what they do and were a deadly combo similar to Mahomes and Reid.

75% Brady, 25% Belichek.

[htismaqe]

There's a difference between BB the GM and BB the HC. BB the HC, not his fault talent level of that offense.

ROFL

Come on man, BB does both jobs. Just because he sucks at one doesn't give him a free pass with the other.

That's just silly.

[OrtonsPiercedTaint]

Kraft will trade BB to the Jets now?

[Buehler445]

75% Brady, 25% Belichek.

Not sure I’d go that far. Brady might get to 1 10 win season with Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards. Coaching matters. But it’s hard to quantify. Belicheat is probably the best Ive seen at gameplanning. He also has a way of getting players to buy in and teaching them to be smart so I’ll say his environment is pretty good. In game he’s average. He also tries to be the smartest guy in the room a lot and that periodically costs him a game. One of those games was the super bowl.

It’s also possible his schtick is falling flat without production. See: Pioli, Scott in Kansas City.

It’s really hard to quantify but coaching matters, gut feel: coaching manifests It’s self 75% bad 25% good.

But no coach can do it without players. See: washed Cam.

[Buehler445]

ROFL

Come on man, BB does both jobs. Just because he sucks at one doesn't give him a free pass with the other.

That's just silly.

Exactly. Reid deserves some of the blame for Alex because you don’t bring in a guy without the coach signing off.

Even if someone else was the GM BB the HC still would have signed off on Stidham and Cam.

That shit is on BB.

[BWillie]

Garrropolo isnt bad and he traded him. You never know who could fall into his lap.

I dont think Belichick wanted to trade him. Kraft sided with Brady. Thats part of the reason there was tension.

[BlackOp]

The Bucs were loaded with talent last year. They just had a shit QB holding them back.


Brady walked onto a team who's QB just threw for 5000 yards...

[Prison Bitch]

I knew it. Bucs were loaded!

[JD10367]

Stidham is his guy he drafted. He picked up Cam to roll with over his guy. There were a lot of options this offseason. Hell a good look (For the sake of this discussion) would have been to get Rapist Winston. Phyllis was available. Bridgewater, who I think is decent. Reviving Daltons career would Have been a similar feat to Cam.

The defensive guys opting out sucks. But the offense is all him man.

Oh, I definitely agree. I wouldn’t have minded Winston and preferred Dalton to Cam. And clearly having Brady covered a lot of Belichick’s drafting ills. But I’m still not ready to say the past 20 years of success is all Brady.

[vonBobo]

Gunther Cunningham said it is the player, not the coach.

[boilertiger]

I think this patriots team would have been pretty bad with Brady.

They are old and the offense is completely devoid of talent.

[dlphg9]

Remember how the media would suck Bill's dick because of how he stock piled draft picks? Look at Belichick the genius and his awesomeness at acquiring loads of picks every year and recently none of them have amounted to shit.

[dlphg9]

God damn its worse than I thought. New England hasn't drafted a Pro Bowler since 2013 (Jamie Collins) and haven't drafted an All Pro since 2012 (Chandler Jones). In the last 10 years they've only had 1 AP (Jones x2) and 3 PBs (Collins x ,1 Jones x 3, and Dont'a Hightower x 2).

You can really see how much a HOF QB matters, but it wasn't all Tom or all Bill. Probably 60% Tommy boy and 40% Hoodie Bill.

[JD10367]

God damn its worse than I thought. New England hasn't drafted a Pro Bowler since 2013 (Jamie Collins) and haven't drafted an All Pro since 2012 (Chandler Jones).

And he sent both those guys packing.

[PAChiefsGuy]

ROFL

Come on man, BB does both jobs. Just because he sucks at one doesn't give him a free pass with the other.

That's just silly.

He hasn't done good recently as a GM but the guy has 6 SB rings. His resume speaks for itself. Saying he sucks is a bit harsh.

How many rings do Chiefs as an organization have in how many years? Just saying out of all shit HCs in NFL, you want to call out BB?

Pats will be back just having a bad year it happens. You think they are going to go 13-3 every year?

They had their time w SBs and now it's over but BB will get them back playing well eventually maybe next season.

[oldman]

You could make an argument for both when it comes to cheating, but I believe the Hood is the bigger fraud. One winning season in his first 6 years - not something that would inspire a lot of confidence in his coaching abilty. So Tommy-boy comes along and it's a match made in heaven. Even with Brady out for the 2008 season, he makes it to the playoffs. Well, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile. But in a classic Machiavellian move, he pulls off the trade of the century, sending both Cassel and an aging Vrabel to the Chiefs, dooming us to years of mediocracy. To add a cherry on top, he talks the young Clark into hiring the only other egomaniac in the Pats front office, one Scoot Peeholi.
Bottom line, even "some members" of this board could win multiple SBs with Brady as their QB.

[TwistedChief]

2-4 is good?

Losing record without Brady is good?

This is such a ridiculous argument. You’re using a sample size of 6 games when Brady walked into a better situation and Belichick was left with a worse situation to pass judgment on two decades of evidence.

They’re both exceptional talents at what they do. Both possibly the greatest ever in their respective roles. They helped each other.

But if you really want to get into it, what do you think the Patriots record would be if Brady stayed and Belichick left? And what would Tampa’s record be if the Bucs had Belichick as their head coach and let’s say Jimmy G as their QB?

Pretty sure your conclusion would be different then.

[MahomesMagic]

Patriots still winning the AFC East. Heading to the casino today to put money on Patriots moneyline vs Buffalo, minimum $1000.

[htismaqe]

Brady walked onto a team who's QB just threw for 5000 yards...

And 30 interceptions.

[htismaqe]

He hasn't done good recently as a GM but the guy has 6 SB rings. His resume speaks for itself. Saying he sucks is a bit harsh.

How many rings do Chiefs as an organization have in how many years? Just saying out of all shit HCs in NFL, you want to call out BB?

Pats will be back just having a bad year it happens. You think they are going to go 13-3 every year?

They had their time w SBs and now it's over but BB will get them back playing well eventually maybe next season.

He has 6 Super Bowl rings BECAUSE of Tom Brady.

He won't win another SB without Brady. It's that simple.

[htismaqe]

This is such a ridiculous argument. You’re using a sample size of 6 games when Brady walked into a better situation and Belichick was left with a worse situation to pass judgment on two decades of evidence.

They’re both exceptional talents at what they do. Both possibly the greatest ever in their respective roles. They helped each other.

But if you really want to get into it, what do you think the Patriots record would be if Brady stayed and Belichick left? And what would Tampa’s record be if the Bucs had Belichick as their head coach and let’s say Jimmy G as their QB?

Pretty sure your conclusion would be different then.

In 7 seasons without Tom Brady, Bill has won an average of 7 games. That includes his 11-5 season in Cleveland and the season with Cassel but does not include this current season since it isn't complete.

It would be one thing if he were an above-500 coach without Brady but he's not.

The NFL revolves around QB's. Is Bill a great coach? Absolutely. But without Brady, he's not a champion.

Just like Andy is not a champion without Mahomes.

QB's are the cake, coaches are the frosting.

[FloridaMan88]

It’s easy to say Brady but you won’t win ANY games with a QB throwing for 90 yards and 3 picks. If Belichick has a half decent QB he’s only got 1 or 2 losses right now.

Alert us when Belichick wins consistently without a HOF QB.

He's a sub .500 HC without Brady and that includes a significant sample size.

[tyecopeland]

Brady went to a team with tons of weapons and a good to great defense. I wouldn't write belichek out for one down year. If he still is doing poorly the next two seasons then I'll agree it was brady.

Also he had the most key players opt out due to covid of any team

[htismaqe]

Brady went to a team with tons of weapons and a good to great defense. I wouldn't write belichek out for one down year. If he still is doing poorly the next two seasons then I'll agree it was brady.

7 seasons without Brady. Sub-500 record.

It's not about this year. It's about Bill's entire body of work.

[tyecopeland]

7 seasons without Brady. Sub-500 record.

It's not about this year. It's about Bill's entire body of work.

Those were early in his career. And most with the browns. He went 10-6 with Matt cassel.

[htismaqe]

He went 10-6 with Matt cassel.

And didn't win a Super Bowl.

Look, he's a good coach. Nobody is saying he's not.

Can he go 10-6 or 11-5 again? Sure.

But without Brady, he will never win another ring.

[Lzen]

Yes it’s official after six games

If the Pats are bad for Three years straight maybe the arguments can begin.

It’s not like Brady went to a shit team with no talent and they’re all of the sudden good. Bucs have had talent but Winston is volatile. Did we forget that like half the Pats D opted out?

It was booth of them. I think Brady could have won 1-2 rings with any other decent franchise.

I can't say the same thing about Belicheck because the QB is so important. But for them to win 6, it isn't one or the other, but the combination of both (along with cheating!).

This is correct. Remember, Brady wasn't so great last year in NE. I don't think Brady would have made a lot of difference in NE this year, either. But he is definitely better than Cam.

Bucs were 5-11 and 7-9 last two years.

Jamis Winston led them to the #1 offense in the league last year, if I recall correctly. His problem was that he turned over the ball too much. So let's not act as if the team wasn't already built into a good team. Brady walked into a great situation for him to succeed. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Still a long way to go before you crown him. Personally, I hope he fails.

[New World Order]

2-4 is good?

Losing record without Brady is good?

They had a lot of starters opt out because of Covid.

Brady would have still won SBs without Belichick. Probably not close to 6 though. Belichick probably doesn't win any without Tom Brady.

[Lzen]

And didn't win a Super Bowl.

Look, he's a good coach. Nobody is saying he's not.

Can he go 10-6 or 11-5 again? Sure.

But without Brady, he will never win another ring.


I wouldn't say that. But what I would say is that he needs another really good to great QB to win another SB. And that's probably not going to happen because he's getting old and will retire soon, most likely. These situations always prove that it is a combination of coach and QB. The marriage of Brady and Belicheck was the perfect situation. Hard to duplicate something like that.

[Lzen]

God damn its worse than I thought. New England hasn't drafted a Pro Bowler since 2013 (Jamie Collins) and haven't drafted an All Pro since 2012 (Chandler Jones). In the last 10 years they've only had 1 AP (Jones x2) and 3 PBs (Collins x ,1 Jones x 3, and Dont'a Hightower x 2).

You can really see how much a HOF QB matters, but it wasn't all Tom or all Bill. Probably 60% Tommy boy and 40% Hoodie Bill.

That's pretty sad. Proves how much a HOF QB matters. I also wonder how much the cheating mattered. There is just no way to measure that.

[Lzen]

You could make an argument for both when it comes to cheating, but I believe the Hood is the bigger fraud. One winning season in his first 6 years - not something that would inspire a lot of confidence in his coaching abilty. So Tommy-boy comes along and it's a match made in heaven. Even with Brady out for the 2008 season, he makes it to the playoffs. Well, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile. But in a classic Machiavellian move, he pulls off the trade of the century, sending both Cassel and an aging Vrabel to the Chiefs, dooming us to years of mediocracy. To add a cherry on top, he talks the young Clark into hiring the only other egomaniac in the Pats front office, one Scoot Peeholi.
Bottom line, even "some members" of this board could win multiple SBs with Brady as their QB.

That whole fiasco is why I hope the Patriots suck for decades now. :#

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Just look at the Colts before PM and after PM. Same with the Donkeys. PM made Elway look like a great GM. Now he's a laughing stock.

[Lzen]

In 7 seasons without Tom Brady, Bill has won an average of 7 games. That includes his 11-5 season in Cleveland and the season with Cassel but does not include this current season since it isn't complete.

It would be one thing if he were an above-500 coach without Brady but he's not.

The NFL revolves around QB's. Is Bill a great coach? Absolutely. But without Brady, he's not a champion.

Just like Andy is not a champion without Mahomes.

QB's are the cake, coaches are the frosting.

I agree with most of what you're saying but there is a caveat. Sometimes, coaches do better in their second chance. Perhaps you should be asking what is Belicheck's record in New England without Brady?

[tyecopeland]

And didn't win a Super Bowl.

ook, he's a good coach. Nobody is saying he's not.

Can he go 10-6 or 11-5 again? Sure.

But without Brady, he will never win another ring.

Thats exactly what is trying to be said by many in this thread. And when you say he has a sub .500 record without Brady thats what you are insinuating as well.

He could definitely win another ring, give him a good qb and let him get his defense back. He could win a ring. Its not like Brady carried them to the first one anyway.

Andy didn't win a ring without mahomes, does that mean he's not a good coach? Or that it was all mahomes?

[TwistedChief]

In 7 seasons without Tom Brady, Bill has won an average of 7 games. That includes his 11-5 season in Cleveland and the season with Cassel but does not include this current season since it isn't complete.

It would be one thing if he were an above-500 coach without Brady but he's not.

The NFL revolves around QB's. Is Bill a great coach? Absolutely. But without Brady, he's not a champion.

Just like Andy is not a champion without Mahomes.

QB's are the cake, coaches are the frosting.

Oh, no question about that. At all. Said another way, a good coach can't win a Super Bowl without good players but good players can win a Super Bowl without a good coach.

I might imagine that for the bulk of the relationship, Belichick benefitted more from Brady than the reverse. But more recently - like in the season where they beat us in the AFCCG and the following one - Brady probably benefitted more from Belichick's defense mind as his physical skills declined.

[htismaqe]

Thats exactly what is trying to be said by many in this thread. And when you say he has a sub .500 record without Brady thats what you are insinuating as well.

No, it wasn't. There's context to add, such as the fact that he coached for the Browns, that I omitted because it's common knowledge.

I never said he was a BAD coach. I didn't say he was. I said his sub-500 record without Brady suggests he's not a Super Bowl winning coach without Brady. And it absolutely does.

Andy didn't win a ring without mahomes, does that mean he's not a good coach? Or that it was all mahomes?

Andy is a great coach. So is Marty Schottenheimer.

The simple fact is that talent wins Super Bowls. Talent at QB wins Super Bowls.

Coaches don't win Super Bowls without that talent. In fact, they CAN'T win Super Bowls without that talent. It's nearly impossible.

That's how important QB's are.

[htismaqe]

Oh, no question about that. At all. Said another way, a good coach can't win a Super Bowl without good players but good players can win a Super Bowl without a good coach.

Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying.

I might imagine that for the bulk of the relationship, Belichick benefitted more from Brady than the reverse. But more recently - like in the season where they beat us in the AFCCG and the following one - Brady probably benefitted more from Belichick's defense mind as his physical skills declined.

Probably true.

[htismaqe]

Again, just so it's clear:

QB's are the cake. Coaches are the frosting.

QB's are the ribs. Coaches are the BBQ sauce.

To be GREAT, you have to have both.

But both the cake and ribs can be good without frosting or sauce. Without the cake or ribs, the frosting and sauce are virtually useless.

[FloridaMan88]

Those were early in his career. And most with the browns. He went 10-6 with Matt cassel.

Todd Haley went 10-6 with Casshole and unlike Belichick made the playoffs with that piece of shit at QB.

[Mecca]

He no longer has a QB to hide all his crappy draft picks and poor decisions on players. They got caught with their pants down on the most important position and will pay the price for years.

[tredadda]

He has 6 Super Bowl rings BECAUSE of Tom Brady.

He won't win another SB without Brady. It's that simple.

I think that goes both ways. One could argue that the first two SBs they won were because of the defense and not Brady. Also their sixth one was all because of Bill's defensive masterpiece.

[htismaqe]

I think that goes both ways. One could argue that the first two SBs they won were because of the defense and not Brady. Also their sixth one was all because of Bill's defensive masterpiece.

In their first Super Bowl, the Rams scored 14 unanswered points in the 4th quarter, the last of which left 1:30 on the clock. Brady marched the team down the field and they kicked the game-winning FG.

Their 2nd Super Bowl, Brady completed 32 passes for 354 yards and 3 TD's while the defense gave up over 300 yards and 3 TD's to Jake Delhomme.

The last one is really the only one where you can't make an argument for Brady.

Brady had a QB rating over 100 in every Super Bowl save the first one and the last one.

[tredadda]

In their first Super Bowl, the Rams scored 14 unanswered points in the 4th quarter, the last of which left 1:30 on the clock. Brady marched the team down the field and they kicked the game-winning FG.

Their 2nd Super Bowl, Brady completed 32 passes for 354 yards and 3 TD's while the defense gave up over 300 yards and 3 TD's to Jake Delhomme.

The last one is really the only one where you can't make an argument for Brady.

Brady had a QB rating over 100 in every Super Bowl save the first one and the last one.

Fair enough. Either way they both benefitted from each other. I think Bill benefitted more as Brady masked a lot of the Patriots Way nonsense that has failed every other place it's been implemented. Its very hard to win a SB without an elite QB. That's why they get paid what they do.

[htismaqe]

Fair enough. Either way they both benefitted from each other. I think Bill benefitted more as Brady masked a lot of the Patriots Way nonsense that has failed every other place it's been implemented. Its very hard to win a SB without an elite QB. That's why they get paid what they do.

So we agree. ;)

[tyecopeland]

In their first Super Bowl, the Rams scored 14 unanswered points in the 4th quarter, the last of which left 1:30 on the clock. Brady marched the team down the field and they kicked the game-winning FG.

Their 2nd Super Bowl, Brady completed 32 passes for 354 yards and 3 TD's while the defense gave up over 300 yards and 3 TD's to Jake Delhomme.

The last one is really the only one where you can't make an argument for Brady.

Brady had a QB rating over 100 in every Super Bowl save the first one and the last one.

If you are going to blame belichick for the 14 points allowed in the 4th quarter I think you have to give him huge credit for only allowing 3 in the first 3 quarters to the #1 offense in the league. Top 5 in almost all offensive categories, #1 in a ton.

[htismaqe]

If you are going to blame belichick for the 14 points allowed in the 4th quarter I think you have to give him huge credit for only allowing 3 in the first 3 quarters to the #1 offense in the league. Top 5 in almost all offensive categories, #1 in a ton.

Of course.

That doesn't diminish the fact that when the Patriots NEEDED a game winning drive, it was Brady that delivered it.

[Prison Bitch]

Fact: Pats defense is good this year. 4th in AFC SRS or +4.6 points above the avg defense. Right about where the Chiefs are.


Their offense is 15th in the AFC at -5.9 below avg, ahead of only the Jets. Pretty easy to draw a conclusion on why they’re struggling to win.

[nicksdad]

BB is 20-23 lifetime in NE without brady . ( mic drop?)

[fan4ever]

Dumbest argument in the world? A QB can carry a bad team/coach. My God.

[tyecopeland]

What great qb has recently won a super bowl with a shitty coach/team?

[RunKC]

Again, just so it's clear:

QB's are the cake. Coaches are the frosting.

QB's are the ribs. Coaches are the BBQ sauce.

To be GREAT, you have to have both.

But both the cake and ribs can be good without frosting or sauce. Without the cake or ribs, the frosting and sauce are virtually useless.

Mostly agree, but in the case of Andy Reid you can be very successful without the HOF QB.

Nobody would put McNabb in the HOF and Andy took that QB and team to 5 NFC championship games and a SB, losing to the best dynasty in history.

It’s possible to win without the elite QB but it’s really damn rare. Surprisingly the Ravens have done it twice.

[OrtonsPiercedTaint]

Had the NFL made as much money before and after these villains parted ways

[Eureka]

If this were a real issue. It's a stupid argument. Jocks can't do weekly game plans or know what to look for globally- game prep wise. They do what they're told.
Put brady on the jets, see how good he is.

Something could be said that players elevate their game when they play with a player like Brady. He's old enough that most of the other players were kids when he was winning SB.

Sam Darnold calls out a player to do something vs Brady is just different then the rest. Brady will carry much more weight/respect from other players. I think this would leave to an offense performing much better. The Jets would be a much better team with Brady.

[ChiefBlueCFC]

You can be the greatest Xs and Os guy in the world but if you got a bunch of guys like me out there you aren't gonna do much. Still gotta have someone competent to execute the playbook

[tk13]

Mostly agree, but in the case of Andy Reid you can be very successful without the HOF QB.

Nobody would put McNabb in the HOF and Andy took that QB and team to 5 NFC championship games and a SB, losing to the best dynasty in history.

It’s possible to win without the elite QB but it’s really damn rare. Surprisingly the Ravens have done it twice.

Even if you're elite at QB it doesn't always work. Peyton Manning's a HOFer but his last season the Broncos won the Super Bowl while Manning threw 9 TD/17 INT. Just horrible. Even during his first SB run with the Colts he threw 3 TD/7 INT that postseason.

Guys like Roethlisberger and Russell Wilson went to their first Super Bowls on teams that were all about top rushing attacks and great defenses and ranked in the 31/32 range in pass attempts. Nothing like the gunslingers they are now.

[RaidersOftheCellar]

You mean the Cassel year? That team went 16-0 the year prior. That team wasn't a bunch of scrubs.

Yeah, that hardly proves anything. Haley won 10 games with Cassel. That NE team was just loaded.

[Basileus777]

Jamis Winston led them to the #1 offense in the league last year, if I recall correctly. His problem was that he turned over the ball too much. So let's not act as if the team wasn't already built into a good team. Brady walked into a great situation for him to succeed. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Still a long way to go before you crown him. Personally, I hope he fails.
The Bucs offense was 23rd in DVOA last year (-7.4%). They were 7th (9.2%) before the Raiders game this year.



So no, the offense has vastly improved.

[htismaqe]

What great qb has recently won a super bowl with a shitty coach/team?

It isn't about the team.

We're talking about QB's vs. coaches.

Several teams have won Super Bowls with great QB's and mediocre coaches. The most recent that comes to mind is Denver in 2015.

[htismaqe]

Mostly agree, but in the case of Andy Reid you can be very successful without the HOF QB.

Nobody would put McNabb in the HOF and Andy took that QB and team to 5 NFC championship games and a SB, losing to the best dynasty in history.

It’s possible to win without the elite QB but it’s really damn rare. Surprisingly the Ravens have done it twice.

It's not about "being successful".

It's about winning championships.

Bill, just like Andy, can field a good team without a HOF QB. Neither of them win a Super Bowl without a HOF QB.

[RaidersOftheCellar]

These are the facts:

The Patriots' elaborate cheating schemes began in 2001, which also happened to be the year their run of dominance began.

Prior to Brady taking the reins, Bill was 41-57 as a head coach. He's now 2-4 since. And it's not as if he had zero talent at QB. He had Bledsoe, Testaverde in his prime, Bernie Kosar and now Newton. Andy won 11/year with Alex (and generally a weak defense).

This isn't to say that Belichick isn't a great defensive coach or a solid coach overall. But I think it's time to slow down with the GOAT and "genius" talk.

[RaidersOftheCellar]

It's not about "being successful".

It's about winning championships.

Bill, just like Andy, can field a good team without a HOF QB. Neither of them win a Super Bowl without a HOF QB.

He had one winning season with Cassel and a loaded team and one winning season in Cleveland. 5 losing seasons and he's on his way to another.

[tyecopeland]

Dumbest argument in the world? A QB can carry a bad team/coach. My God.

What great qb has recently won a super bowl with a shitty coach/team?

It isn't about the team.

We're talking about QB's vs. coaches.

Several teams have won Super Bowls with great QB's and mediocre coaches. The most recent that comes to mind is Denver in 2015.

My post was in response to the post right above it.

But take out the team element.

What great qb has won with a shit coach?

You say peyton but he was anything but great that year. That super bowl win didn't have shit to do with peyton.

[fan4ever]

You say peyton but he was anything but great that year. That super bowl win didn't have shit to do with peyton.

...and Von Miller won SuperBowl MVP if I remember correctly.

[htismaqe]

How many Super Bowls has Von Miller been to without Manning? :hmmm:

[tyecopeland]

How many Super Bowls has Von Miller been to without Manning? :hmmm:

Peyton was benched during the season that year. He threw something like 9 tds and 17 ints during the regular season. Go die on some other hill.

You could probably convince me russell Wilson won with a shit coach but even then I think the defense carried that team more than wilson did that season. And if you presented me that one as an example I'd tell you foles won the super bowl more recently due to coaching more so than qb talent.

[htismaqe]

Peyton was benched during the season that year. He threw something like 9 tds and 17 ints during the regular season. Go die on some other hill.

You could probably convince me russell Wilson won with a shit coach but even then I think the defense carried that team more than wilson did that season. And if you presented me that one as an example I'd tell you foles won the super bowl more recently due to coaching more so than qb talent.

I guess we'll see, won't we?

BB ain't winning shit without Brady.

[tyecopeland]

I guess we'll see, won't we?

BB ain't winning shit without Brady.

Ok. I don't think either one of them are winning shit. So how will we decide then?

Shit= Super bowl. Which you established as the argument

[htismaqe]

Ok. I don't think either one of them are winning shit. So how will we decide then?

Good question. :D

[CarlosCarson27]

I guess we'll see, won't we?

BB ain't winning shit without Brady.

Well, no one didn't know that to begin with. I mean as far as getting to another SB is concerned. The extreme glory days are over, that's a given. It's been 20 years.long enough and aged out of the race.
Just a silly pointless sports debate all around. Together they won. Now apart they'll lose. Maybe inside or outside of playoffs, but still lose.
No more super bowls for either of them.

[Shields68]

Bill is a great coach. Above average GM except when it comes to draft selections which is below average and unfortunately is a big part of the job. Some of his problem is drafting last every year, your not getting the can't miss prospects.

Also I think Bill has 8 rigs counting the 2 he got with the Giants.

[htismaqe]

Bill is a great coach. Above average GM except when it comes to draft selections which is below average and unfortunately is a big part of the job. Some of his problem is drafting last every year, your not getting the can't miss prospects.

Also I think Bill has 8 rigs counting the 2 he got with the Giants.

Lots of coordinators made it to and won Super Bowls. Todd Haley went to a Super Bowl.

[CarlosCarson27]

Bill is a great coach. Above average GM except when it comes to draft selections which is below average and unfortunately is a big part of the job. Some of his problem is drafting last every year, your not getting the can't miss prospects.

Also I think Bill has 8 rigs counting the 2 he got with the Giants.

New thread- Yeahhhhh mannnnn, Parcells was nothing without Belichick , mannnnn.

[Prison Bitch]

It’s also worth mentioning BB didn’t start Brady over Bledsoe. He got hurt which is why Brady even played. It’s conceivable Bledsoe could’ve been their starter a few of those early years and Brady might’ve been Garoppolo’d off to another team.

[Lzen]

The Bucs offense was 23rd in DVOA last year (-7.4%). They were 7th (9.2%) before the Raiders game this year.



So no, the offense has vastly improved.

They led the league in passing yards and were tied for 3rd in scoring. Like I said, Winston was a major reason why they weren't more successful. Turnovers kill an offense.

[Lzen]

Peyton was benched during the season that year. He threw something like 9 tds and 17 ints during the regular season. Go die on some other hill.

You could probably convince me russell Wilson won with a shit coach but even then I think the defense carried that team more than wilson did that season. And if you presented me that one as an example I'd tell you foles won the super bowl more recently due to coaching more so than qb talent.

Are you trying to say Pete Carroll is a shit coach? :spock:

[KChiefs1]

Belichick has a losing record as a HC without Tom Brady.

[CarlosCarson27]

Belichick has a losing record as a HC without Tom Brady.

LMAO

[CarlosCarson27]

Are you trying to say Pete Carroll is a shit coach? :spock:

Well, those usc championships were taken away.....

[Red Dawg]

Brady went to a team already with big talent and then they went super nova with FA's. There's no team in the NFC that will knock them out. If we make it we play them. Only hope is somehow they don't win the divison but that is not looking likely at the moment.

[Chief Roundup]

Tampa has a lot more top tier talent due to picking at the top of every round for almost a decade. Patriots talent was gathered from drafting at the bottom of every round for a decade.
Regular season wins against mediocre teams doesn't mean shit when you are comparing these two. It has to be Super Bowls.
Brady is light years ahead of Cam. Bill is lights years ahead of Arians.
Anyone trying to compare and contrast Tom and Bill after this small of a sampling is doing both a disservice and is just trying to start shit. It is PB so I am not surprised.
This is a normal PB thread. Just like we all know how a Deberg thread is also.

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using Tapatalk

[tyecopeland]

Are you trying to say Pete Carroll is a shit coach? :spock:

I have one of the best QB's in the league, let me repeatedly run the ball until we are in big trouble then I'll just let my star qb do his thing in the 4th quarter to bail us out.

Yeah, I'd say I could be convinced he's not very good.

[Prison Bitch]

We should be glad he didn’t choose Vegas. He’d have made them a SB threat too.


Of course folks here would be all “Dude Vegas was loaded with talent. Top RB, great TE, and speed WR, I mean like bro who COULDNT make them 12-4”?

[Just Passin' By]

And 30 interceptions.

And a losing record

[Just Passin' By]

Brady went to a team with tons of weapons and a good to great defense. I wouldn't write belichek out for one down year. If he still is doing poorly the next two seasons then I'll agree it was brady.

Also he had the most key players opt out due to covid of any team

Brady went to a team that hasn't been above .500 since 2016 and, prior to that, hadn't been above .500 since 2010.

[BWillie]

It isn't about the team.

We're talking about QB's vs. coaches.

Several teams have won Super Bowls with great QB's and mediocre coaches. The most recent that comes to mind is Denver in 2015.

Wat

Denver had the worst QB in the league in 2015 and won because of a historic defense.

Peyton Manning was the worst QB in the league that year, the very worst.

T34 out of 34 QB's in QB rating. He was out of the league after. He got lucky. Denver pulled his ass to a free Super Bowl. He deserved one though before, and didn't get one. Didn't deserve it that year and got one. Funny how that happens.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2015/passing.htm

[BWillie]

Belichick has a losing record as a HC without Tom Brady.

I still can't get over how ****ing stupid we were to pick up Matt Cassel. Brady goes 16-0. The next year they go 10-6 with Matt Cassel. Sooooo Matt Cassel is SIX ****ING GAMES worse than Tom Brady in one year...and we think that is..good?

I blame the Belichick coaching tree and New England for that nonsense.

[htismaqe]

I still can't get over how fucking stupid we were to pick up Matt Cassel. Brady goes 16-0. The next year they go 10-6 with Matt Cassel. Sooooo Matt Cassel is SIX FUCKING GAMES worse than Tom Brady in one year...and we think that is..good?

Pioli!

[Just Passin' By]

Oh, no question about that. At all. Said another way, a good coach can't win a Super Bowl without good players but good players can win a Super Bowl without a good coach.

I might imagine that for the bulk of the relationship, Belichick benefitted more from Brady than the reverse. But more recently - like in the season where they beat us in the AFCCG and the following one - Brady probably benefitted more from Belichick's defense mind as his physical skills declined.

LMAO

[BWillie]

Pioli!

I hate clam chowder.

I hate harvard.

I hate wicked anything.

Will Hunting was a ****ing punk and Robin Williams should have drowned him in the lake by that park.

[htismaqe]

I hate clam chowder.

I hate harvard.

I hate wicked anything.

Will Hunting was a ****ing punk and Robin Williams should have drowned him in the lake by that park.

LMAO

[tyecopeland]

Brady went to a team that hasn't been above .500 since 2016 and, prior to that, hadn't been above .500 since 2010.

So because they were under .500 (7-9 mind you) Chris godwin and Mike Evans aren't great wrs? Barrett, jpp. Vea, suh aren't good players because the team finished a game below. 500?

[Red Dawg]

One good thing is the shithead Pats fans are gone. They are done and Bill isn't going back the Bowl ever. Players will not line up and take pay cuts for them anymore. That day is dead. They are now regular ole nothing.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

So because they were under .500 (7-9 mind you) Chris godwin and Mike Evans aren't great wrs? Barrett, jpp. Vea, suh aren't good players because the team finished a game below. 500?

Well, you aren't committing 40 turnovers with Brady. Talent means jack shit with poor execution

[htismaqe]

So because they were under .500 (7-9 mind you) Chris godwin and Mike Evans aren't great wrs? Barrett, jpp. Vea, suh aren't good players because the team finished a game below. 500?

QB is by far the most important position on the field and it's not even close.

[O.city]

QB is by far the most important position on the field and it's not even close.

They should take it out of his hands and run it more

:)

[Megatron96]

All the evidence supports the idea that the coach is more important than the player, even the QB.

Consider this: It's 1999-2000. The six QBs drafted before Brady were: Chad Pennington, Giovanni Carmazzi (sp?),Chris Redman, Tee Martin, Marc Bulger and Spergon Wynn. could any one of those guys have filled in for the Patriots in 200-2004 or so?

At the very least, Marc Bulger, right?

Now same thing, but this time take away Belichick. Install Freddie Kitchens. Or Lane Kiffen. Hue Jackson. Chris Palmer. Romeo Crennel. And so on. Do they win a SB? Almost definitely not.

Football is the most coach-reliant sport in the world. Without decent coaching, the talent on the field has almost no chance of succeeding. Just see CLE last season with Kitchens. MIA when Gase was there. NYJ with Gase now. WAS with Jay Gruden. And so forth.

Meanwhile, a really good to great coach can take just decent talent and find ways to put together a winning season, or even get their team into the playoffs. Sometimes even SBs.

[tredadda]

So because they were under .500 (7-9 mind you) Chris godwin and Mike Evans aren't great wrs? Barrett, jpp. Vea, suh aren't good players because the team finished a game below. 500?

^ This. They finished 7-9 IN SPITE of Winston's 30 INTs. If he threw half as many as he did they are at worst a 10-6 team more likely a 11-5 or 12-4 and making the playoffs. To think their success is all Brady and they are somehow devoid of talent is ridiculous. He has made them better no doubt but they weren't scrubs before.

[tyecopeland]

Well, you aren't committing 40 turnovers with Brady. Talent means jack shit with poor execution

QB is by far the most important position on the field and it's not even close.

I'm just responding to posts. Presenting the ignored aspect in previous posts. JPB was phrasing his post as if Brady chose a shit team that had little talent and has single handedly turned it around when in fact most of the pieces were in place. Brady > winston. No doubt. But that doesn't mean much when Bridgewater > winston.

[tyecopeland]

We should be glad he didn’t choose Vegas. He’d have made them a SB threat too.


Of course folks here would be all “Dude Vegas was loaded with talent. Top RB, great TE, and speed WR, I mean like bro who COULDNT make them 12-4”?

Well they do have a better te. But not better wrs. Quite a bit better rb. But definitely at lot worse defense. Brady would have made them better though.

[Red Dawg]

Half the qbs in the league could win with that roster. They lost two games because of Brady play.

[JD10367]

And didn't win a Super Bowl.

Look, he's a good coach. Nobody is saying he's not.

Can he go 10-6 or 11-5 again? Sure.

But without Brady, he will never win another ring.

And how many rings did Reid have?

People who bring up Belichick's Browns seasons don't really look at the facts. The Browns suck. They've always sucked. They've had a whopping 3 winning seasons since 1990: 9 wins under Butch Davis, 10 wins under Romeo Crennel, and 11 wins under Belichick. Before the 11-5 season, Belichick had them winning 6, 7, and 7 games. He was clearly progressing them in the right direction. He beat Bill Parcells and the Patriots in the playoffs. And then the news came out about the team moving and it was all over.

[htismaqe]

And how many rings did Reid have?

Before Mahomes? Zero. That's exactly my point.

People who bring up Belichick's Browns seasons don't really look at the facts. The Browns suck. They've always sucked. They've had a whopping 3 winning seasons since 1990: 9 wins under Butch Davis, 10 wins under Romeo Crennel, and 11 wins under Belichick. Before the 11-5 season, Belichick had them winning 6, 7, and 7 games. He was clearly progressing them in the right direction. He beat Bill Parcells and the Patriots in the playoffs. And then the news came out about the team moving and it was all over.

The best coach of all time should be able to manage .500 though shouldn't he?

Look, I'm not saying he's a bad coach. He's a really good coach. But he's still just a coach.

Let me make this even more clear since people don't seem to understand it:

Coaches DO NOT win championships, QB's do. Period.

[htismaqe]

AFootball is the most coach-reliant sport in the world. Without decent coaching, the talent on the field has almost no chance of succeeding. Just see CLE last season with Kitchens. MIA when Gase was there. NYJ with Gase now. WAS with Jay Gruden. And so forth.

That's a long list of teams with shit quarterbacks.

[htismaqe]

I'm just responding to posts. Presenting the ignored aspect in previous posts. JPB was phrasing his post as if Brady chose a shit team that had little talent and has single handedly turned it around when in fact most of the pieces were in place. Brady > winston. No doubt. But that doesn't mean much when Bridgewater > winston.

With Brady they're probably a Super Bowl contender.

With Bridgewater, they aren't. It's that simple.

[RunKC]

I guess we'll see, won't we?

BB ain't winning shit without Brady.

I think he could have easily rode Jimmy G to the SB. If Rat Jr could do it, so could Bill.

This was a few years before Mahomes was drafted/starting. Bill’s defense was elite and they were a primarily running team. Very similar to last years 49ers.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

All the evidence supports the idea that the coach is more important than the player, even the QB.

Consider this: It's 1999-2000. The six QBs drafted before Brady were: Chad Pennington, Giovanni Carmazzi (sp?),Chris Redman, Tee Martin, Marc Bulger and Spergon Wynn. could any one of those guys have filled in for the Patriots in 200-2004 or so?

At the very least, Marc Bulger, right?

Now same thing, but this time take away Belichick. Install Freddie Kitchens. Or Lane Kiffen. Hue Jackson. Chris Palmer. Romeo Crennel. And so on. Do they win a SB? Almost definitely not.

Football is the most coach-reliant sport in the world. Without decent coaching, the talent on the field has almost no chance of succeeding. Just see CLE last season with Kitchens. MIA when Gase was there. NYJ with Gase now. WAS with Jay Gruden. And so forth.

Meanwhile, a really good to great coach can take just decent talent and find ways to put together a winning season, or even get their team into the playoffs. Sometimes even SBs.

Peyton Manning proves this not to be 100%

[Megatron96]

That's a long list of teams with shit quarterbacks.

Didn't Gase have Tannehill? The same guy that's put up the same stats as Mahomes this season or whatever?

CLE is 4-2 with Stefanski, best CLE record in what, 20 years?

Alex Smith was statistically the best QB in football in 2017 with Andy Reid, but just slightly better than average in WAS.


Coaching is the key to winning.

[Megatron96]

Peyton Manning proves this not to be 100%

Manning was the offensive coach.

[htismaqe]

Didn't Gase have Tannehill? The same guy that's put up the same stats as Mahomes this season or whatever?

CLE is 4-2 with Stefanski, best CLE record in what, 20 years?

Alex Smith was statistically the best QB in football in 2017 with Andy Reid, but just slightly better than average in WAS.


Coaching is the key to winning.

In the regular season.

We're talking about winning championships.

[tyecopeland]

In the regular season.

We're talking about winning championships.

Your only example that a great qb wins a championship with a bad coach is 9 td 17 int peyton manning winning with the Broncos. I'm still waiting for a real example of a great qb leading a team with a bad coach.

[htismaqe]

Your only example that a great qb wins a championship with a bad coach is 9 td 17 int peyton manning winning with the Broncos. I'm still waiting for a real example of a great qb leading a team with a bad coach.

Mike McCarthy won one with Aaron Rodgers. Mike McCarthy is a terrible head coach.

[kccrow]

Call me a believer that Brady doesn't become Brady if it isn't for Bill. Bill constructed an offense tailor-made for Tom, coached him up, and always fielded a great defense to go with it. He's got absolute at dogshit at QB right now. Bill can win 10-11 games with just mediocre. Hell, he won 11 with Matt fucking Cassel.

[Megatron96]

In the regular season.

We're talking about winning championships.

Well, to be fair, there's a bunch of average QBs that won a ring.

Just off the top of my head:

Phil Simms
Jeff Hostetler
Jim McMahon
Mark Rypien
Trent Dilfer
Brad Johnson
Nick Foles

And the list just goes on.

And there's another list of exceptional QBs that didn't win one, or only just the one.

[CarlosCarson27]

Without Belichick, he'd just be another Peyton Manning.

[crayzkirk]

Call me a believer that Brady doesn't become Brady if it isn't for Bill. Bill constructed an offense tailor-made for Tom, coached him up, and always fielded a great defense to go with it. He's got absolute at dogshit at QB right now. Bill can win 10-11 games with just mediocre. Hell, he won 11 with Matt fucking Cassel.

True... The dumpster fire of a division they play in sure doesn't hurt either.

[Deberg_1990]

Your only example that a great qb wins a championship with a bad coach is 9 td 17 int peyton manning winning with the Broncos. I'm still waiting for a real example of a great qb leading a team with a bad coach.

George Seifert?

[tyecopeland]

Mike McCarthy won one with Aaron Rodgers. Mike McCarthy is a terrible head coach.

I wondered if you'd go there. I agree.

Now. Eli manning, Joe Flacco, 9 td on the season at one point benched peyton manning, and nick foles have all won super bowls since the last time a great qb won with a terrible coach.

[tyecopeland]

George Seifert?

Was he Steve youngs super bowl winning coach? All I know is he's a former 49ers coach.

[htismaqe]

I wondered if you'd go there. I agree.

Now. Eli manning, Joe Flacco, 9 td on the season at one point benched peyton manning, and nick foles have all won super bowls since the last time a great qb won with a terrible coach.

Despite his regular season warts, Eli Manning will likely be a Hall of Famer.

Tom Coughlin isn't a terrible coach but he isn't a good one either. And he's a miserable human being.

[htismaqe]

Was he Steve youngs super bowl winning coach? All I know is he's a former 49ers coach.

Yeah, he won 2 rings with the loaded 49ers. He was awful in Carolina and got fired after 3 seasons.

[Megatron96]

Was he Steve youngs super bowl winning coach? All I know is he's a former 49ers coach.

Yes. 1994.

[htismaqe]

Yes. 1994.

He was the HC in 1989 as well. It was his first season. They went 14-2 and won it all with Joe Montana at the helm.

Quarterback Joe Montana had one of the greatest statistical passing seasons in NFL history in 1989. Montana set a then-NFL record with a passer rating of 112.4, with a completion percentage of 70.2%, and a 26/8 touchdown-to-interception ratio. In the playoffs, Montana was even more dominant, with a 78.3% completion percentage, 800 yards, 11 touchdowns, no interceptions, and a 146.4 rating.

[tyecopeland]

Despite his regular season warts, Eli Manning will likely be a Hall of Famer.

Tom Coughlin isn't a terrible coach but he isn't a good one either. And he's a miserable human being.

Only because of the rings.

[tyecopeland]

Just want to remind everyone that brady can't even remember it's 4th down without Bill in pressure situations.

[htismaqe]

Only because of the rings.

Does anything else matter? :D

[htismaqe]

Just want to remind everyone that brady can't even remember it's 4th down without Bill in pressure situations.

Seems like for a lot of people this is personal.

I can't stand either one of them, actually.

And yeah, maybe I've been a bit hyperbolic in my stance but I'm not going to change my mind.

QB's are much, much more important than coaches.

[Buehler445]

Right. Belicheat won 11 games with Cassholio and missed the playoffs.

Let's go through their schedule.

They beat us with God fucking Squirmin Herman Motherfucking Sack of Cunt Edwards. One of the worst teams ever. Hoo fucking ray.
Beat the Jets
Lost to the Dolphins
Beat the 9ers when Smith was at his worst
Lost to the Chargers who were meh. Someone had to win the division.
Beat the shit ass Donko bitchcunts. Was that the Teblows year?
Beat the hapless Bills
Got dumped by the Jets
Beat the Phins.
Beat the pre-Russ Seahags
Beat the Faid
Beat the garbage Cards
Beat the hapless Bills.

Other than that first Jets win (when they probably filmed them the week before because Cheatriot) There isn't a great win on there.

Yeah, Cassholio won 11 games, but ghey were shit games AND they missed the playoffs. Plus he was throwing to Moss, Stallworth and Prime Welker.

Remember that Cassholio went to the playoffs under Haley (who is a shit coach in his own right).

I don't have a particular dog in this fight, I'm just sick of dudes holding up Cassholio winning 11 games as some goddamned coaching Mt Everest.

As if we've forgotten, the AFCE was a buttfucking joke.

[eDave]

Andy get more love now that we have Mahomes.

[Prison Bitch]

QB's are much, much more important than coaches.


Funny how our fan base could see that firsthand with Alex Smoth for 5 years and forgets it all.

[RaidersOftheCellar]

And how many rings did Reid have?

People who bring up Belichick's Browns seasons don't really look at the facts. The Browns suck. They've always sucked. They've had a whopping 3 winning seasons since 1990: 9 wins under Butch Davis, 10 wins under Romeo Crennel, and 11 wins under Belichick. Before the 11-5 season, Belichick had them winning 6, 7, and 7 games. He was clearly progressing them in the right direction. He beat Bill Parcells and the Patriots in the playoffs. And then the news came out about the team moving and it was all over.

Is this clown serious with this?

The Browns were a perennial winner and had one down year before Belichick took over. Then they moved and the franchise had a few more shitty years under a nobody coach before hiring a decent coach and winning the SB and becoming a perennial winner again. With crappy QBs.

Love how this guy compares to the new Browns, as if they have any relevance.

[CarlosCarson27]

And how many rings did Reid have?

People who bring up Belichick's Browns seasons don't really look at the facts. The Browns suck. They've always sucked. They've had a whopping 3 winning seasons since 1990: 9 wins under Butch Davis, 10 wins under Romeo Crennel, and 11 wins under Belichick. Before the 11-5 season, Belichick had them winning 6, 7, and 7 games. He was clearly progressing them in the right direction. He beat Bill Parcells and the Patriots in the playoffs. And then the news came out about the team moving and it was all over.

Is this clown serious with this?

The Browns were a perennial winner and had one down year before Belichick took over. Then they moved and the franchise had a few more shitty years under a nobody coach before hiring a decent coach and winning the SB and becoming a perennial winner again. With crappy QBs.

Love how this guy compares to the new Browns, as if they have any relevance.

Putting Bill on the Browns was symbolism. The Browns were the Original dynasty. They owned the 1940s to the 1960s. He had to there for baptism into new England to have the second greatest dynasty

[tredadda]

Only because of the rings.

And raw stats. He is Top 10 all time in both passing yards and TDs.

[tyecopeland]

And raw stats. He is Top 10 all time in both passing yards and TDs.

Didn't know that.

[milkshock]

Reminds me of Chuck Noll.

Part of a dynasty yes, but not the critical element by any means. Not one of the all time greats.

I would go even further and rate Reid as superior.

[ThaVirus]

We should be glad he didn’t choose Vegas. He’d have made them a SB threat too.


Of course folks here would be all “Dude Vegas was loaded with talent. Top RB, great TE, and speed WR, I mean like bro who COULDNT make them 12-4”?

LV does have a loaded offense. They've got, possibly, the best OL in the league, Josh Jacobs, Darren Waller, Henry Ruggs and a much better version of Agholor. Their defense is still crap, though.

You drop any HOF QB on even an average roster and you've suddenly got a SB contender on your hands.

[Chief Roundup]

This year Tom Brady is 22cd in completion %, he is 21st in yards per attempt and 6th in passing attempts. Very pedestrian numbers for a QB that use to be the GOAT. Especially with the RB that is 4th in yards.

[CarlosCarson27]

This year Tom Brady is 22cd in completion %, he is 21st in yards per attempt and 6th in passing attempts. Very pedestrian numbers for a QB that use to be the GOAT. Especially with the RB that is 4th in yards.

Won't matter till playoffs

[Kyle DeLexus]

For all saying BB is sub .500 without Brady, you still have to factor in the Matt Cassel season. They went 11-5 with that flaming piece of garbage.

Then again Todd Haley went 10-6 in 2010 with that same flaming piece of garbage so who fucking knows.

[RaidersOftheCellar]

For all saying BB is sub .500 without Brady, you still have to factor in the Matt Cassel season. They went 11-5 with that flaming piece of garbage.

Then again Todd Haley went 10-6 in 2010 with that same flaming piece of garbage so who ****ing knows.

Exactly. He won one more game than Haley with a roster that went 16-0 the year before.

[Just Passin' By]

So because they were under .500 (7-9 mind you) Chris godwin and Mike Evans aren't great wrs? Barrett, jpp. Vea, suh aren't good players because the team finished a game below. 500?

They weren't good enough to get the team above .500 with Jameis Winston. QBs matter. The Patriots are getting a stark reminder of that fact.

[Just Passin' By]

Your only example that a great qb wins a championship with a bad coach is 9 td 17 int peyton manning winning with the Broncos. I'm still waiting for a real example of a great qb leading a team with a bad coach.

It really depends on how you're defining "bad coach". Manning's already been mentioned, as have Rodgers and Young, so I'll skip them. But I'll toss out a couple more elite QBs who won in the full free agency era with coaching that's definitely not looked back upon as all world.

Aikman (Switzer)
Favre (Holmgren)

[Easy 6]

It really depends on how you're defining "bad coach". Manning's already been mentioned, as have Rodgers and Young, so I'll skip them. But I'll toss out a couple more elite QBs who won in the full free agency era with coaching that's definitely not looked back upon as all world.

Aikman (Switzer)
Favre (Holmgren)

You're maybe being a bit hard on Holmgren, tho

Only getting 1 title after all those years with Favre seems sketchy for sure, but he also won a shitload of games between Green Bay and SEA, and his coaching tree is full of highlights

[chop]

I don't think you can be too harsh on BB this year, in addition to losing his starting QB, they did have several players opt-out.

[ThyKingdomCome15]

But Brady will never win another Super Bowl so IDK.

[WhiteWhale]

Season isnt halfway over yet.

I've seen the patriots have a rough first half more than once. I'll let things play out.

The idea that one person is entirely responsible for new England's 20 years of success is just a bad take.

[KCJake]

Cam Newton is dog shit. Something you should factor into this discussion

[Buehler445]

Cam Newton is dog shit. Something you should factor into this discussion

So is Stidham if they don’t roll with him. They had opt outs but all on the defense right?

Another example of Belicheat trying to be the smartest guy in the room?

[Buehler445]

Let me tell you, my heart is not bleeding for the brotherfucking Cheatriot scumbags.

[MahiMike]

CP keeps getting dumber. Pat's have the most guys out from last year, Cam has a noodle arm and a scrambled egg brain.

It's hoodie all day.

[RollChiefsRoll]

He ran the wrong ROOT! What’s that all ABOOT?

[Buehler445]

CP keeps getting dumber. Pat's have the most guys out from last year, Cam has a noodle arm and a scrambled egg brain.

It's hoodie all day.

I’m not making any grand conclusions for 8 games but to just hand wave all of Cheatriot problems aren’t Belicheat is being disingenuous at best.

Pretty sure all the dudes that opted out were on D. So that explains precisely 0.00% of the offensive problems. (I did the math).

All the dudes are his dudes. He picked all of the receivers ends and backs. Cam is his guy Stidham is his guy. OC is his guy. ST is his guy DC is his guy. No GM to blame the talent on. It’s him.

Plus the dudes that opted out, there is a pretty good chance that’s on him. Notorious hard ass dbag coach has the most players opt out? Coincidence?

He gets to take credit for the rings, he has to own the cheating and this seasons buttfuckery. We know, FOR A FACT, that it’s all Belicheat. No coordinator, assistant, personnel guy, no fucking nobody. It’s him. It’s all him. He has to wear this one.

[htismaqe]

I’m not making any grand conclusions for 8 games but to just hand wave all of Cheatriot problems aren’t Belicheat is being disingenuous at best.

Pretty sure all the dudes that opted out were on D. So that explains precisely 0.00% of the offensive problems. (I did the math).

All the dudes are his dudes. He picked all of the receivers ends and backs. Cam is his guy Stidham is his guy. OC is his guy. ST is his guy DC is his guy. No GM to blame the talent on. It’s him.

Plus the dudes that opted out, there is a pretty good chance that’s on him. Notorious hard ass dbag coach has the most players opt out? Coincidence?

He gets to take credit for the rings, he has to own the cheating and this seasons buttfuckery. We know, FOR A FACT, that it’s all Belicheat. No coordinator, assistant, personnel guy, no fucking nobody. It’s him. It’s all him. He has to wear this one.

:clap:

[BWillie]

I don't think you can be too harsh on BB this year, in addition to losing his starting QB, they did have several players opt-out.

Agreed. I don't think people are being fair to BB and I don't like the guy.

[htismaqe]

Agreed. I don't think people are being fair to BB and I don't like the guy.

It's not about this year. Even without all the opt-outs and injuries, they're not a championship team.

Coaching brings consistency. QB's bring championships.

[BWillie]

It's not about this year. Even without all the opt-outs and injuries, they're not a championship team.

Coaching brings consistency. QB's bring championships.

Brady was terrible last year. And it wasn't all his fault, he didn't have much weapons. But if you go from about the 20th best QB last year to a Top 5 QB this year on a team with elite weapons. You can see how important the system is to success.

[htismaqe]

Brady was terrible last year. And it wasn't all his fault, he didn't have much weapons. But if you go from about the 20th best QB last year to a Top 5 QB this year on a team with elite weapons. You can see how important the system is to success.

It's not just about this year.

It's about 20 years of dominance.

Brady was the Patriots. That ship has sailed. Bill won't win another ring. Bet on it.

[TripleThreat]

Season isnt halfway over yet.

I've seen the patriots have a rough first half more than once. I'll let things play out.

The idea that one person is entirely responsible for new England's 20 years of success is just a bad take.

This is different.

[Beef Supreme]

Maybe it was neither Bill or Tom, but the cheating.

[kccrow]

It's not just about this year.

It's about 20 years of dominance.

Brady was the Patriots. That ship has sailed. Bill won't win another ring. Bet on it.

So Bill's defensive genius had absolutely nothing to do with their success? Bullshit.

[crispystl]

It's pretty simple.
They played great defense, didn't make stupid mistakes and they had a clutch QB. Usually 2/3 will win you the game in the NFL, so having all three made them damn tough to beat. Brady didn't have anything to do with the defense and Bill didn't have anything to do with the clutch QB, but they both were great at preventing the team from making bone-headed mental gaffes that many other teams do repeatedly.

[htismaqe]

So Bill's defensive genius had absolutely nothing to do with their success? Bullshit.

Who said that? I didn't.

[kccrow]

It's pretty simple.
They played great defense, didn't make stupid mistakes and they had a clutch QB. Usually 2/3 will win you the game in the NFL, so having all three made them damn tough to beat. Brady didn't have anything to do with the defense and Bill didn't have anything to do with the clutch QB, but they both were great at preventing the team from making bone-headed mental gaffes that many other teams do repeatedly.

He may not have had anything to do with the clutch factor, but he always provided Tom with a very good offensive line and receivers that could get open underneath, both playing in favor of Tom's success.

[kccrow]

Who said that? I didn't.

You think it's all Tom, and that's complete hogwash.

[WhiteWhale]

Hank stram couldn't win with the saints, therefore he was never a good coach. It was all lenny. Let's not even mention the defense.

That's what some of you sound like.

Likewise Andy sucks. It's all mahomes.

That's how football works right? Success can only be attributed to 1 coach or player.

Brady's Bucs ain't won shit yet. Stop crowning them.

[htismaqe]

You think it's all Tom, and that's complete hogwash.

I've NEVER said it was all Tom.

I've gone on record saying SEVERAL times that Tom was the driving force behind the championships, but I've NEVER said BB contributed nothing. I've literally never said that.

I've even gone on record saying it's somewhere between 60/40 and 75/25.

So you're wrong.

[htismaqe]

Hank stram couldn't win with the saints, therefore he was never a good coach. It was all lenny.

That's what some of you sound like.

Likewise Andy sucks. It's all mahomes.

That's how football works right? Success can only be attributed to 1 coach or player.

Who said Bill sucks? Thats pure hyperbole.

[WhiteWhale]

I've NEVER said it was all Tom.

I've gone on record saying SEVERAL times that Tom was the driving force behind the championships, but I've NEVER said BB contributed nothing. I've literally never said that.

I've even gone on record saying it's somewhere between 60/40 and 75/25.

So you're wrong.

Even this take is atrocious.

Just those two? Those 16 of 20 years with a top 10 defense, and all those players, dont deserve 1% of credit?

[WhiteWhale]

Who said Bill sucks? Thats pure hyperbole.

Hyperbole is acting like the other 52 players never mattered.

I mean goddamn, did anyone expect the patriots to get better this year?

[htismaqe]

Even this take is atrocious.

Just those two? Those 16 of 20 years with a top 10 defense, and all those players, dont deserve 1% of credit?

What?

The title of the thread is literally Tom vs. Bill. Of course the other players deserve credit but that's not the discussion.

[htismaqe]

Hyperbole is acting like the other 52 players never mattered.

The other 52 players aren't being discussed. Sorry.

[WhiteWhale]

The other 52 players aren't being discussed. Sorry.

Yeah, that's the problem.

If it was only about billy and Tommy, they would have won 20 rings. So the whole conversation is silly.

I'm shitting on the premise itself.

[htismaqe]

Yeah, that's the problem.

If it was only about billy and Tommy, they would have won 20 rings.

I didn't frame the conversation. I'm only participating it.

If you want to expand the conversation to give credit to a bunch of other people, that's a different discussion and we can certainly have it.

As it is, we were talking about Brady and Bill. Omitting other players form the conversation isn't about not giving them credit, it's about them not being part of the discussion from the beginning.

[CapsLockKey]

I think the argument should be more around Josh McDaniels whose touted as some great offensive mind being a fraud without Tom than BB. Pat's are losing because their offense is hot garbage without Brady. The defense has actually been pretty good considering all the guys that opted out.

Where Belichick absolutely deserves criticism is his awful drafting. Every draft he's praised as winning the draft because of the constant moving up and down the board to aquire more picks but what good is that when majority of the actual picks stink?

[tredadda]

I think the argument should be more around Josh McDaniels whose touted as some great offensive mind being a fraud without Tom than BB. Pat's are losing because their offense is hot garbage without Brady. The defense has actually been pretty good considering all the guys that opted out.

Where Belichick absolutely deserves criticism is his awful drafting. Every draft he's praised as winning the draft because of the constant moving up and down the board to aquire more picks but what good is that when majority of the actual picks stink?

Brady has masked a lot of deficiencies on that team. He was the "Patriot Way" which is why almost everyone that leaves that organization fails elsewhere trying to implement that system.

[Lzen]

...Pat's are losing because their offense is hot garbage without Brady...

Their offense was not good last year WITH BRADY.

[FloridaMan88]

Will Blowjob Bob Kraft and his loser son have the guts to “fire” Belichick the GM?

[Wallcrawler]

To be fair, Brady pulled about as close to a Lebron taking his talents to south beach as you could get without joining KC.

I mean God damn, look at all the talent on the team he joined. Anyone not named Jameis Winston could do what Tom is doing. Even Alex Smith, on one leg could do what Tom is doing in TB.

[Clyde Frog]

Not a valid poll without a "cheating" option.

[htismaqe]

Brady has masked a lot of deficiencies on that team. He was the "Patriot Way" which is why almost everyone that leaves that organization fails elsewhere trying to implement that system.

Yep.

[KChiefs1]

I’ve said it many times:

Bill Belichick has a losing record as a head coach without Tom Brady as his QB.

[DRM08]

I’ve said it many times:

Bill Belichick has a losing record as a head coach without Tom Brady as his QB.

This is true. But you put Brady in a shitty situation like the Jets, Browns, Lions, and so forth. He would not have 6 rings. He would likely have a big fat 0 rings in that situation. It was the combination of the coach & QB, certainly not 100% one guy and 0% the other. Brady seemed to recognize this given that he stayed in New England for less money. He could have chased bigger contracts and much better weather in free agency over the last 10+ years.