If Bush Wins and The house is GOP...

[BroncoFan]

Then hold on to your money. We will be in recession within a year, schools will once again be lacking in funding (Remember Katsup as a Vegetable?) and We will also be in war.

Feel Free to cut and paste this. For posterity's sake.

Pam

[This message has been edited by dawsonpa (edited 11-02-2000).]

[ColoradoChief]

Cool, not only will we be holding onto our money but the gov't will use the surpluss to give me even more of my own money back so that I can by things to improve my life and the life of my family.

Or we could elect Gore and watch that money trickle down through the buracracy and see pennies of the trillion dollars actually hit the people it was intended to help...

[Stuckinbama]

What ever Pam. If Gore is elected and the House is DEM then we will see the size of Government grow so fast and large we would wish we were living in China. Bush is the safe choice, what's more safe, Adding to the size of Government, and Government Spending. Or giving the American people a tax cut? We will never see the end of a Gore Govenment program, once in place they never go away. On the other hand Bush's tax cut can be undone with a simple vote by the House and Senate if our Country faces hard times.

Hoover
Voting for Bush because its the safe choice.<P>

[BroncoFan]

I didn't say that I wanted the house to be dem. I believe that it should be opposite of the Executive Branch. That way they balance out.


I am in the Education field and Bush has done nothing or said anything to show his support for public education. In fact everything he has said or written has been AGAINST public schools.
Pam
Gore is the best Choice

[This message has been edited by dawsonpa (edited 11-02-2000).]

[This message has been edited by dawsonpa (edited 11-02-2000).]

[KCWolfman]

Pam, you're being too pessimistic. Bush is a good guy. He is NOT, repeat, NOT Newt Gingrich. He is NOT going to tear apart our world.

I don't know if you've noticed the last six months or not, but we are already in something of a recession. You can thank that on Alan Greenspan and the Mideast turmoil. If we had had a coherent foreign policy we could have avoided a lot of this.

Here's what is going to happen if Bush is elected: 1) Abortion laws will NOT change, regardless of how anyone feels; 2) There will be a tax cut of some kind; 3) Folks will be able to invest some of the SS funds; 4) There will be more savings programs for education and health that are tax deductible, 5) Foreign policy will be MUCH improved with capable folks like Cheney and Candoleeza Rice; 6) Bush will NOT use abortion as a litmus test for Supreme Court justices, but will seek for "strict constructionist" jurisprudence, and 7) the world will go on and life will go on...

Changes will NOT be as drastic as ads and fear-mongers want you to believe. LIfe will go on as it always has, and you may actually like some of the results...<P>

[G_Man]

Morphius,

Remember "Trickle Down" Economics? We're gonna see it again.

Be ready for a barrage of "Payday #_ - no tax cut yet" posts from me for the next 4-8 years.

[cdcox]

We're headed for a recession no matter who is elected. Contrary to what most liberals believe, the federal government does not control the business cycle. It can only influence it.
I will be holding my money offshore if Gore gets elected.

[BroncoFan]

If Bush is elected then public schools will fall down, and we can all apply to private schools....YYYUUUUUUKK

Pam

The abortion issue SHOULD NOT BE an issue. it is no ones business.

[This message has been edited by dawsonpa (edited 11-02-2000).]

[cdcox]

I'd like to see your evidence for that, or are you just spouting what you heard on TV?

[ColoradoChief]

Clint - Tell me exactly, do you prefer the money to trickle down through the rich or would you prefer for your money to trickle down through the gov't.

My money comes from some people with lots of money and the gov't makes sure I don't walk home with all of it.

[KCWolfman]

Pam, Bush didn't let public schools fall down in Texas. They have made serious improvements there, in spite of all the immigration and language issues there.

Don't believe the rhetoric.

Also, I agree, abortion is a private matter... a great moral and spiritual matter... between you, your family, and God... and that's where it ought to stay...

I also believe that the Supreme Court really had no CONSTITUTIONAL basis for any decision regarding abortion...

[cdcox]

BTW-why are so many schools still underfunded after eight years of 'one of the best presidents in the history of the country'? (Gore's words after Clinton was impeached in the House for lying under oath, a crime usually called perjury and usually punishable by jail time and a stiff fine)

[G_Man]

Fly,

A tax cut "of some kind" is worthless to me. If my paycheck doesn't increase, there has been no tax cut as far as I'm concerned.

[KCWolfman]

Clint, as far as the tax cut goes, I really don't care... It won't help me as much as I really need it... Too much haggling in Congress will keep any tax cut from really helping anyone...

But an education savings or a health savings would be a good start so I can help my family and my kids...<BR>

[Kurt Surber]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR> I am in the Education field <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ketsup? Vegatable? Beleive? Issure?

Tell me you're not an English teacher.

[BroncoFan]

Bush Speech 3/31/00

I don't believe the federal government should be building classrooms across the country

The Bush six-point education reform plan is silent on school modernization

Smaller class size --

(Bergen (N.J.) Record, 3/30/00

"With me, the guiding principle will the be the "proof is in the pudding.' It isn't a matter of more classrooms and more teachers, it is a matter of making the ones we have work"

Al Gore on smaller class sizes.
"Smaller classes enable teachers to provide more individualized atention to every child, and make it easier for teachers to focus on teaching--rather than on the challenge of maintaining discipline in a larger class--and students to focus on learning"


Need more? I've got it.

[One Arrowhead Dave]

Pam-

I'm not at all happy with the prospect of a Republican controlled Congress and White House, but I cannot fathom the reasoning behind your dire predictions.

· As has already been stated, neither Congress nor the President can stop a recession if the business cycle has come to that point in the wave.

· As has already been stated, education is a big issue for Bush. It always has been. I find this prediction hard to swallow.

· War with whom, over what issue? And how do a Republican Congress and White House cause this situation?

Being somewhat skittish about Republican control myself, I eagerly await your reasoning.

xoxo~
gaz
really worried now.<BR>

[ColoradoChief]

Pam - Now tell me, is it the President who actually determines those things, or is it the state that you live in?

[BroncoFan]

No I am not a reading teacher. And forgive me for typing fast. I have to post inbetween classes and directions.

Petty people focus on misspelled words because they don't have a valid arguement. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[kc hopeful]

I think the last 8 years have shown us that the economy shapes the President the President does not shape the economy. Education is very, very important. Whether or not a school district is successful is dependent on the teachers and the parents of that district not the federal government. The KC MO school district is the best example I can think of. Several years ago a Judge (Clarke I think) stepped all over the constitution and decided he and he alone would fix the problems. Due to his court order several Billion I repeat BILLION dollars were poured into the district. Facilities second to none were provided. Olympic sized swimming polls were built. Top-notch computers were provided. Test Scores did not improve. I’m not disrespecting teachers, far from it I think they are underpaid for how important their job is. I just don’t think the amount of money a school district has is not the deciding factor in the “quality” of the education provided.

[KCWolfman]

Lastly, war has always been a possibility... Look at the current administration... We bombed an aspirin factory in Sudan... We bombed "terrorist" camps in Afghanistan... We bombed the hell out of Kosovo inside Yugoslavia... We sent troops into Bosnia... We blew apart any chance of a Middle East peace by having no coherent foreign policy...

Yes, there could be wars... But whatever administration takes office, it will be because we inherited them from a inept administration that has NO clue on foreign policy at all...<BR>

[G_Man]

I agree that more emphasis should be placed on education in this country, but poor facilities are no excuse for poor performance by students.

The public schools in this country are basically the same as they were when I was in grade school 20 years ago. The curriculum is almost identical. Teachers' qualifications are nearly identical.

The biggest reason that so many students fail or "slip through the cracks" is pi_s-poor parenting. If a child is raised properly, they could get good grades sitting outside in a freaking field with their books stacked on the ground next to them.

[Kurt Surber]

Petty person here - I wouldn't be pointing those errors out were this not a "dire predictions for the state of education" thread. You the one accusing Bush of wanting to destroy education and you are an educator who can't spell. The transposition in beleive and and the added 'r' in issure may be speed errors. But the other two, huh-unh.

As for not possessing an argument - I think that the posts thus far have adequately covered my position. Raw dollars bear little relevance to performance, facilities are secondary to personnel and curriculum, teacher accountability and proficiency must be stepped-up, and [above all] it is a local issue.

[This message has been edited by JC-Johnny (edited 11-02-2000).]

[KCWolfman]

JC, Pam is a very well intentioned person. She may have been misled by the campaign rhetoric, but I can assure you as an individual she is top-notch and honest...

(Which is a heck of a lot better than most folks campaigning for office...)

[kc hopeful]

Clint
I’m in complete agreement with you. And as strange as it sounds, I would imagine Russ, Luz and Titus are too.

We might have to hold hands and sing “We are the World”….
Or
Not


------------------

"A steak a day keeps the cows dead."

[htismaqe]

Pam,
I ussally don't dive to deep into these political threads but.....

Face it, Gore is gonna say whatever you want to hear to get elected. Granted every politician lies, but gore isn't even good at it. At least Bush tends to stand his ground instead of jumping to wichever side is the "in thing".

Now as for the private schools, Considering the state of MOST public schools, I would rather have a CHOICE if I want to send my kids to private or public.

You know CHOICE's is what this country is about. NOT a president telling us what is best for us.

(just my .02 worth)

[KC Jones]

Come on now, if it weren't for Al we wouldn't be on the internet discussing this at all... http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
joe

"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
-Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst

[Kurt Surber]

Fly - you're probably right, and
Pam - I apologize for my attack posture.

It's just that Pam hit two of my hot-buttons in one fell swoop. Grammar and NEA self-preservation alarmism. I'm sure Pam is well intentioned. Its just that I have too many good friends who are teachers, and 9 times out of ten we agree ideologically. But when it comes to Bush/Gore, they get so bitter about the prospects for accountability and losing out to more open competition.

I'm not talking about Pam personally, but the general sentiment reminds me of the grousing by union automakers in the late '70's when they couldn't understand why the Pinto and Chevette were being outsold by the Accord and Civic.

[This message has been edited by JC-Johnny (edited 11-02-2000).]

[Chiefnj]

I would expect to see an avalanche of investigations against Democratic leaders to begin immediately. The Repubs would control Congress, puppet-Bush, and the Attourney General. We'd see four years of investgative onslaught against any Dem that may be seen as a potential presidential candidate in 2004. They'll have plenty of time and all of our money to continue the politics of destruction that we have come to accept.

[KC_red]

Summary of all political threads (or Limbaugh-love-ins) on this board:

Chiefsfan1: "Bush!"
Chiefsfan2: "Harumph!"
Chiefsfan3: "Harumph!"
Chiefsfan4: "Harumph!"
...ad nauseum
Chiefsfan1: "Hey! I didn't get a harumph out of you! You misled-neo-socialist-ignorant-liberal! Give me my tax money regardless of how remote the real possibility of me seeing it is!"
Chiefsfan5: "Harumph!"
Chiefsfan6: "Harumph!"
Chiefsfan7: "Harumph!"
Rush Limbaugh: "Harumph!"
TheFly: "Bump and thump!"

Both parties are untrustworthy and inept. This pretty much sums up my beliefs: Dems want personal freedom. Repubs want financial freedom. I just want freedom.

[This message has been edited by DiscoJones (edited 11-02-2000).]

[KC_red]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>"It's just that Pam hit two of my hot-buttons in one fell swoop. Grammer and NEA self-preservation alarmism."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What the he$$ is "grammer"?

That's just too funny! http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[KCWolfman]

I prefer "BUMP N THUMP" if you please! http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[KC_red]

Fly - post#29 has been edited to reflect your preference. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[KCWolfman]

Thank you!
As a libertarian (small "l") I prefer bumping and thumping to harumphing!
http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[JOhn]

EXCELLANT take, Clint! That's the best damn thing I've heard you "utter" on this board (politically related).

[KC_red]

From what I have read, I think that I lean towards the libertarian ideology as well.

So, "bump and thump" for me as well! http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/cool.gif

he$$akewl

[Kurt Surber]

Likewise Disco - #27 has been edited to reflect yours. As I said earlier, I only pointed the misspellings out because of the irony of the position the misspellings were trying to convey. We all type too fast. We all have "bugaboo" words (actually believe is one of them, along with receive).

[KCFan95]

In a war? Hmmm...lets see.
WW2-Demo as pres, demo congress and senate.

Korea--same

Vietnam--same--war ended by a Rebub pres.

Gulf--Repub pres--demo congress and senate. Only war that ended quickly.

Now, which party is it that starts wars?

If I remember right--and I do--the demos said that Reagan was sure to get us into a war. Hmmm...seems like he is the one that headed the charge that led to the down fall of the USSR. Remember them????

Now which party is it that starts wars???

YOU BETTER LOOK AT HISTORY BEFORE YOU MAKE ACCUSATIONS!!

Dev
~just another lib lie that is easy to refute!



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GO CHIEFS!!!! Squash the faiders like the scum that they are!!

[KC_red]

JCJ - It's all good! I no what you mean by the bugaboo words! (even put one in as an example) http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

[BroncoFan]

I guess we all believe who we want to believe. I agree that schools are in bad shape, but I do not want to teach in a private school. I believe that with better teachers, the schools will improve IF we get that chance.

Pam

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I am for Gore ALL the way.

[Jeff_000]

I am NOT a Republican, but a few things:

The amount of federal $$ that goes to public education is so insignificant it amazes me this is even an issue. Our schools do have problems, but the feds sure the he!! aren't the ones to fix it. With what, a $5,000 desk? The feds have proven they cannot handle problems as wide-spread as the education issue.

Recessions are economic cycles—Bush Sr. was unlucky enough to end his term during one and Clinton has been charmed enough to not have to worry about it. The gov't has little impact there. Alan Greenspan has more control than anyone or anything when it comes to the markets, and he will still be there no matter who wins.

As far as war goes, the current administration has done a terrible job. Would a Republican done any better? Probably not. Will they do worse? Again, probably not. With all of the local battles fought all over the world, should we be the world's police? I say no. Unless is genocide (ala Serbia, even though the gov't did nothing), then we should keep out noses out of it.

Republicans will not spell doom. They will just continue the tradition.

MM
--Convinced it doesn't matter who I vote for . . . we're all screwed!

[Baby Lee]

Pam,

Why are you falling in with the fear monger's of the DNC and predicting such doom and gloom?

Why do you think the president or congress has so much power? The person who has kept the economy going along at the pace it has been going is Alan Greenspan. The only real policy that would have a great influence on the economy is a reduction in capital gains and/or income tax rates. That action would put more money into the system and wouldn't be inflationary because the money is already in the system, it just isn't available to the common person.

If the liberals are so good, why weren't they able to anything the first 2 years of Clinton when they had the presidency and congress?


When responding, don't make personal attacks and try to back it up with facts and hopefully don't use the facts from a biased source. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif



------------------
bk

[BroncoFan]

Bush could have ended the gulf war but did not that is why we had TO GO BACK.


I know my history. We had no chance on WW2 and prior to those "Democrats" there were Republicans as President.

[BroncoFan]

My facts are from documented sources that are on public Record. I am voicing my opinion. I have not attacked anyone without merit and I resent that you resort to public attack.

Pam
We will never agree.

[Baby Lee]

Pam,

Please list you sources.

thanks,




------------------
bk

[KCFan95]

Now, if the Demo's get the presidency and congress look out.

Hand guns will be outlawed and law abiding gun owners will become criminals.

Public land will become off limits with the exception of a few national parks and they will be heavily regulated and under the control of the UN. Already happening with the new Heritage designations.

Majority of property owners will either loose their property or use of it based upon new far reaching environmental regulations.

Only the rich will be able to afford new cars because of high gasoline prices and environmental restrictions that make the cost of a new car prohibitive.

Much of our sovereignty will disappear as the UN begins its take over.

Education will continue it's downward slide and home schooling will become illegal, making even more citizens criminals.

Any religious speech, especially any related to Christianity will be denied and church's tax exemption will be eliminated. Church's may also loose property rights.

Please feel free to copy and paste.<P>

[KCWolfman]

Pam, you can't judge an administration that doesn't exist yet... How many wars did Gov. Bush start? How many wars did Al Gore start? We have NO frame of reference for either...

[Boise_Chief]

Whoaa!! Idaho Chief dude, I'm as Republican as the next guy. But come down to earth man. You need to get back in with society. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Baby Lee]

Alan,

The scary part is, a lot of this has already taken place in the current administration. I certainly hope it wouldn't continue if Algore gets elected. But I am almost sure it wouldn't happen if GW gets elected.



------------------
bk

[Jeff_000]

Idaho--
While I don't agree with Pam, where in the HELL did you get this stuff? I'm assuming you're mocking her . . . I hope you are. Here's my version, though:

If Republicans control Congress and the White House:

Hand guns will be sold from vending machines, making it even easier for children to blow away their classmates.

Public lands will be clear cut, stripped mined and ran by big corporations in the name of profit. It already happens in many places.

Majority property owners will lose their property to the rich based on new tax cuts.

Only the rich will get tax breaks, letting them buy more $80,000 SUVs and get 10 miles to the gallon.

We will break from the UN and be unable to sell our goods, protect our citizens and foreign property as every other nation black-balls us and makes us targets for their hate.

Education will improve for the top 5% in income . . . the rest will share classrooms with 65 kids and one untrained, unqualified teacher who is more like a warden than an educator (see TX public schools).

Christians will force their morals and doctrine upon the entire country, making it illegal to think for yourself.

Of course, this is all theory and hyperbole, but you get the idea. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

MM--
Showing that it works both ways.<P>

[KCFan95]

Don't agree? Fine. It is my opinion. But do a little research. Take a long look at the direction the UN is moving. Did you know that the new international Heritage Park designation gives the UN unprecedented control over the parks so designated? Check out the agenda of the last big UN meeting in New York.

Look at the WHO, WTO and the WCO. Take a look at their charters and their goal statements. Then tell me that they don't intend to break down the walls of our soveriegnty.

Try reading--for yourself--Al Gore's book, "Earth in Balance."

See who Handgun Inc. gives their political money to. Handgun Inc. is for the elimination of handguns. Take a look at what has been done to Australia and England and then tell me that we are not far behind.

Like I said. Copy and paste it and then wait 8 years. See what happens. Then tell me if I'm over the edge.

Personally I thing Bush will win and this scenario will not occur...yet.



------------------
GO CHIEFS!!!! Squash the faiders like the scum that they are!!

[Luzap]

Pam: can you list those sources that are 'in the public record'? Im interested to see where the hyperbole has started. Also, please point out to me where in the Federal budget, schools are funded. You might like to know that school funding comes mainly from state bond issues and property taxes.

Clint: I liked your post #21. Very well written and I would agree. I have to ask you, do you understand the difference between payroll deduction and your taxes which are levied on April 15th? I think this may be the source of your problem or better yet, maybe you could tell me when it was that Clinton increased your paycheck?



[This message has been edited by KCTitus (edited 11-02-2000).]

[KCWolfman]

Here's what's really going to happen:

1) Handguns, condoms, Pepsi, and cigarettes will be distributed by vending machines on campus
2) Abortions will be performed on unpregnant women
3) The UN will select Bill Clinton as the next Secretary General
4) Bill and Hillary will divorce.
5) Monica will be the Asst Sect General
6) Taxes will be raised to support tax credits for genetically modified textbooks.
7) Police will outnumber teachers in schools.
8) Teachers will not be able to read and write.
9) Students will wear striped uniforms.
10) Everyone will be on welfare except Bill Gates
11) There will be free health care for all who dare to trust anything that is "free"
12) You get what you pay for
13) Israel and Palestine will blow each other off the face of the earth
14) Lieberman will insist on gov't shutdown every Friday/Saturday
15) Bush will insist on tax cuts only on Sundays
16) Gore will promise free beef stew on Mondays as long as you have an alternative energy vehicle
17) Cheney will direct Desert Storm II and finish off the entire Middle East
18) More money will be spent on education and our kids will still be getting dumber
19) More money will be spent on healthcare and our healthcare will not improve
20) More money will be spent on corporate and labor welfare to buy votes... and that will actually work...<BR>

[KCTitus]

Mark,
Not a single student has died from school shootings this year. When are you going to quit buying into this media feeding frenzy attacking our second amendment rights. It's all BS http://www.lp.org/press/archive.php?function=view&record=162 Check it out.

[Gaz]

BD, now, now. You should know by now the only thing you will here from liberals this year is gloom and doom.

Only tactic that might work for them.

[Baby Lee]

Not to mention that you are more likely to get killed as a result of going to a doctor than you are by a gun. Remember also that the government wants you to be able to go to the doctor easier. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/wink.gif




------------------
bk

[KCWolfman]

Damn it guys, if Bush wins and the Congressional majority is Republicans, then THE WHOLE FREAKIN WORLD IS GOING TO COME TO AN END!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif<BR>

[Jeff_000]

Everyone--
THAT WAS A JOKE!!! Jeesh!

Listen, I am of the opinion that BOTH Democrats and Republicans are screwed in the head. (Throw Libertarians in there as well as the Reform Party). They walk the political lines without doing what the people want or what is best for the country. If everyone would stop the damn name calling, stop bringing up all of the screw-ups that BOTH parties have made in the past, and just basically stop, pull their heads out of their collective a$$es and smell the public opinion we could solve the problems in this country. Which was exactly my point—both sides can find something wrong with the other, no matter the spin or the facts.

Wake up, people! The current two-party system leaves out those of us who can see the pros and cons of both parties, yet aren't comfortable with either. And the sad thing is there are a HUGE number of people that feel this way.

Perhaps one day we will have a system that does what is best, rather than what is supposed to be done. Until then, the argument will never end.

MM
--Rides the fence . . . and seems to get away with it . . . for now.

[Kurt Surber]

Fly - LMAO - which happens first #13 or #17? BTW, if government beef stew is anything like government cheese, butter, or powdered milk, AlGore can keep it.

[KCTitus]

MM,
The only joke is the fact that you have fed into the feeding frenzy. Yes, I would agree that the 2 party system is crap however as long as people like you are buying into and supporting the BS being promoted by the AP we are all f*c*ed.

[Luzap]

Mark: I disagree...with more parties, you would even more discord and you'd have the president winning the election with less than 50% of the popular vote. If you garner less than 50%, you can hardly be considered the winner.

I also believe that the 2 party system makes people come together and hash out differences that they wouldnt other wise with a 5 or even 10 party system.

[Baby Lee]

Mark,

You really have to be careful ridin' the fence, you could very easily end up straddlin' it and OUCH!!!!



------------------
bk

[Gaz]

Mark, I couldn't agree more and I knew you were just mocking a previous post.

Not only do I think the two party system is all ate up but I would like to see term limits for congress put into place.

In the 90's the term limits issue helped the republicans win majority in congress and they promptly tabled the issue once they were in power.

I blame the two party system and the republicans for that.

[KCWolfman]

The two-party system is the best way to get a bland result... And oftentimes that can be really good...

When you look at multi-party systems like Israel, France, Spain, and Italy, you see gov'ts rise and fall on the whims of a tiny, tiny party that makes or breaks a coalition... No unity, no results, and no clear directions of any kind...

Nope, I'll keep what we've got... I just would like a better two-party system. Something other than Democrats and Republicans... Perhaps Greens vs. Conservatives or Libertarians vs. Socialist or something more akin to the issues we really need to address...<BR>

[Baby Lee]

I promptly blame the citizens for not enacting thier own form of term limits. Vote the Bas*ards out. You don't need any laws to do that.

I think it is real sad when in the last presidential election Clinton was re-elected to the office by only getting around 25% of the possible vote. This is truely sad.



------------------
bk

[Baby Lee]

This is a perspective with rose colored glasses, but here it goes.

It would be great if the legislators would do what is best for the majority of the people instead of what they perceive to be in the legislators best interest.

But we all know thta won't happen http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/frown.gif


------------------
bk

[Kurt Surber]

On the two-party system being crap. It's called coalition building. A skinny guy with humongous lips once said "you can't always get what you want." There is only one seat for the presidency. The person to fill it has to have the broadest appeal. In rare instances, the possibility exists that a candidate unfairly fails to garner support solely on the basis of money. But 99.999% of the time, he or she is two left or right, or single issue oriented to garner widespread support. That's why McDonalds is the world's restuarant, not 'Jim's House of Trout' [although I hear he makes a mean trout], the Taurus outsells to Viper, VHS killed Beta, Coca-Cola outsells Squirt, etc., etc.
Liberals, look at the posts you bemoan on this site and tell me if more exposure for Nader would put him in the White House? Conservatives, tell me true, would "getting away from the two-party system," however that is done, produce a Pat Buchanan White House? Would Alan Keyes' eloquence override his staunch stance on abortion [as admirable as it is]? Would more exposure make Gary Bauer taller, or more able to flip a fricken' pancake without falling down?
If you think partisan bickering is bad now, imagine 535 voices, with no unity, each braying their own limited view. Watch the coverage of the British House of Commons sometime, or the fist-fights that break out in South Korean and Indonesian houses of parliament.

[Luzap]

Amen, Johnny.

[KCTitus]

Great so we would get to choose between bad and horrible. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/confused.gif

[Jeff_000]

Wow! I had no idea I would get such a response!

First of all, kudos to all. Everyone has incredibly good points. Yes, multiple parties would cause some havoc. But my point was that neither side truly represents a majority of people.

I would vote Democrat if I thought I could trust them to not tax and spend, to not outlaw law-abiding citizens from having guns, not put into effect ignorant environmental laws (that mostly do no good, not even for the environment) and to tell the truth when asked.

I would vote Republican if I thought I could trust them to not say what a woman can do with her body, to not be ran by the NRA (did you hear Charleston "I'm Not an Ape" Heston's speech on the news? Talk about propoganda!) and to not give all of the tax breaks to the richest Americans.

I DO NOT blindly trust the media . . . when they show a clip or play a sound bite I am fully aware that there is more to the picture/speech than meets the eye. It's amazing what people sound like when you take what they say out of context. Granted, most of the media is slanted to the liberals,but more often than not both sides are torched one way or the other by those who control our means of information.

I just think there has got to be a better way. Unfortunately, I don't have the solution . . . but I'm sure if we all work together we can solve the problems via this BB! http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

MM
--Should we bring the Whig party back?

[Jeff_000]

bkk--
It's okay . . . I wear a cup.

MM
--Ride 'em cowboy!

[Baby Lee]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>
I would vote Republican if I thought I could trust them to not say what a woman can do with her body, to not be ran by the NRA (did you hear Charleston "I'm Not an Ape" Heston's speech on the news? Talk about propoganda!) and to not give all of the tax breaks to the richest Americans.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aren't there already laws on the books that says we really can't do what we want to our own bodies. I believe Brian G. from Denver was doing what he wanted with his own body and the law didn't like it. We can tolerate a law like that, but God fobid a law against Abortion!.

I also believe the NRA is more about the responsibility of owning a gun instead of wanting to make sure everyone has a gun. If a person, of sound mind and not a convicted felon wants to own a gun, why shouldn't he be allowed to. These gun laws are only aimed at a small minority of owners anyway and they wouldn't abide the laws concerning gun ownership at all. Why shouldn't the average Joe be able to protect his family and property, we all know the cops are only there to fill out reports of what happened, they aren't there to Protect and Serve.

According to the mouth pieces for Bush, the wealthiest 1% would end up paying more of the tax burden after all of the tax breaks were in place. I don't see anything with everyone getting a tax break, including the rich.



------------------
bk

[BroncoFan]

Bush Speech 3/31/00
I don't believe the federal government should be building classrooms across the country

The Bush six-point education reform plan is silent on school modernization

Smaller class size --

(Bergen (N.J.) Record, 3/30/00

(Washington Post 4/25/99

I teach in a district that if funding is cut, we will be shut down. We are already operating on a very tight budget. We are looking at cutting staff, combining bus routes to eliminate busses, not ordering needed textbooks and combining classes.

This is fact from our district. WE can't afford to "try" the voucher experiment, and we need the federal money we receive from our FEDERAL government.<P>

[TheFly]

Voting is not a choice it's a civic duty and I guarantee that at least 50% of the people who whine in here don't vote or haven't even talked or e-mailed their congressman.

No sympathy. Make a difference or quit your bitching. If you make a decision to make a difference you will.

Bush IMO is the best candidate and Gore is the BIGGEST liar of the two. The difference to me is that I'm sure I'll be getting a tax break with bush. Not with gore.

[BroncoFan]

bkk,
whom are you quoting there????

Pam
ABORTION SHOULD NOT EVEN BE ON THE TABLE FOR DEBATE. IT IS A PERSONAL ISSUE BETWEEN A WOMAN AND GOD.


GORE IS PRO-CHOICE NOT FOR ABORTION.

[KCTitus]

Voucher, voucher, voucher, voucher

[TheFly]

I say to you Pam that if you had a quality school you wouldn't be worried about where money from vouchers was going to be put.

Yes there will be some schools that will shut down. Is that a bad thing? NO!

Schools will either learn to be cutting edge on teaching our kids or the backward thinking liberals who run some of those schools that think the National Education Association is the answer can close the hell down. Period.<BR>

[BroncoFan]

What makes you all so sure that you will get a tax break from Bush....It is and always has been a campaign promise that hardly ever comes to fruitation. If it did, then in the next year, we would be taxed higher on something else.

<BR>

[Baby Lee]

Pam,

I was quoting post #69....

I would dare say that we would be more likely to get a tax cut from Bush than we would from Algore...


[This message has been edited by bkkcoh (edited 11-02-2000).]

[Duck Dog]

Pam,

I always enjoy reading your posts, but I (like some others here) am anxious to hear WHY you believe these things will happen.

Does it make me a mean person because I want education to be a State and Local issue ~ without unfunded Federal mandates and control?

Are you under the impression that Bush doesn't want to help schools, or simply that it is not a Federal issue?

Can you explain to me why you are against vouchers in neighborhoods where the Public Schools are already failing?

Are you in favor of the gigantic and ever increasing portion of Public School's budgets (funded by local taxes) that are Federally mandated to be spent on Children with Disabilities?

Lastly Pam, can you give me any evidence that what you say will happen (other than that the NEA or some media person said so)?

Luz
at least bush will win arkansas anyway...

[This message has been edited by Luzap (edited 11-02-2000).]

[TheFly]

First on abortion, I think it's wrong. I'm not in the position to judge though. That's for a woman who has an abortion to handle when she ready to be judged before god.

I don't think playing god because of a sexual mistake is acceptable. Especially when the fetus is viable at a minimum late in the second trimester and definitely in the third trimester.

[Jeff_000]

bkk--
You are 100% true—there are laws on the books that prevent us from doing things to our own body. And they should all be repealled. As long as it doesn't affect another person, it shouldn't matter. I know, I know, a fetus is a person. I'm of the opinion, however, that a fetus is not a person until after the first trimester. I am totally against late-term abortions. And I had the opportunity to see my daughter's pics while in the womb and I still hold true to that argument.

I also support the NRA . . . they do good work most of the time. HOWEVER, Republicans seem more easily influenced by their powerful lobbying than Democrats are. Sure, the Demos have their "pet" lobbyisits, but any group, whether the NRA, the PTA, whatever, should not look to control government. Yes, they are there to help influence a Congress person's decisions . . . and it should be illegal to do so. I think the NRA, as well as a number of other groups, actually do more to influence gov't policy than the actual legislators do.

And listening to a mouthpiece for Bush is not what I would call a non-partisan opinion. I heard on NPR (granted, the "liberal" media) a non-partisan group's spokesman say that Bush's plan does favor the rich, but Gore's hurts the budget surplus we have worked so hard to get. Once again, they are both screwed in the head.

MM
--Becoming more convinced it just doesn't matter . . .

[TheFly]

Pam,

Clinton said he was going to give us a targeted tax cut also and then proceeded to administer the largest tax increase in the nations history.

I believe bush.

[KCWolfman]

Pam, I don't know what to say to you about all this. You're getting a bit carried away by the campaign rhetoric. The truth is always somewhere inbetween.

Gore has switched his stance on abortion many times over the years. He defends abortion IF it will get him the votes. The Democratic Party rolls out the abortion scare every four years to ensure you will think of nothing else.

Bush has been largely silent on abortion, except to say he will honor the laws of the land. He is NOT Pat Buchannon or Alan Keyes. He is NOT going to take away your "right" to an abortion. He is NOT going to address the issue at all.

Lastly said, abortion is a NON-ISSUE used to scare people on both sides of the aisle... Nothing is going to change... Not even with different Supreme Court justices...

So please, relax. Bush is a good guy who is trying to do what's right... Al Gore is a not-so-good guy willing to pander, scare and say anything that will get you to vote for him...

You have to decide... But get away from the scare tactics please...

[BroncoFan]

Yes it is always a bad thing when schools shut down. We are a good school in the poorest section of Benton County. I happen to want to keep my job.


San Jose Mercury News. 8--25

Republican Platform
Opposes tougher air pollution standards

Opposes stricter gas mileage standards for new cars (car makers in their pockets)

Besides the education issue. The things that the Republicans favor all are for the money men and big business. Those of you that support bush I assume all either work for big coporations or are rich.

P.S. Walmart's political action committee is in support of Bush and Republicans. One of their reasons is because they oppose laws limiting the amount of time semi's can drive.

I will post more on this subject as I don't have the info here with me at school.

<BR>

[KCWolfman]

Can't help you about Walmart. I don't shop there and don't like the company. That's how I protest. If I don't like what someone is doing, I stay away from them, or don't do business with them, or don't vote for them.

So Walmart wants Bush? That's bad? Occidental Petroleum wants Gore. I think that's bad...<BR>

[TheFly]

Pam if your a good teacher your gonna keep your job.

I'm tired of the excuses by our educational system especially secondary education for trying to keep the status quo when it totally sucks.

Teachers should be getting paid more than they are and they should be held accountable for student performances nationwide. Period

[KCTitus]

Pam,
I don't mind spending more money but only if we go to a voucher system. The US Department of education cannot account for $400,000,000 in missing funds this year alone. The present system is a complete failure. Maybe they can find some of the funds to keep your district open there.

BIG DADDY
Doesn't want to put his $$$$$$ on a sinking ship.

[This message has been edited by BIG_DADDY (edited 11-02-2000).]

[BroncoFan]

I am a great teacher. I also teach Social Studies and DO NOT coach. Therefore in the spirit of reduction and attrition I would be not very demanding.

This is not a scenerio that MIGHT be, but something that will happen next year. IF the Republicans run this country and do not support public schools, then MY school will be shut down. I am not sure but I would be willing to bet that there would be others. Therefore my job is eliminated and several others too. That in my book leaves several for one open position.

It has nothing to do with how good teachers are or are not. IT is strictly about money.

[KCTitus]

Pam,
I was going to say that I was sure that you are a good teacher and then you scared me death by saying that you taught social studies. I sure hope you don't teach with a left wing bias.

BIG DADDY
Is pissed that my god son has already been led that direction by his school.VOUCHER

[KCWolfman]

Pam, is there a specific statement in the Republican platform that says "we will cut spending in public schools?"

Also, talking about vouchers and actually passing constitutional legislation are two different things. Reality is, there will probably be more pilot programs.

And the other reality is that funding won't be cut at all.

[Jeff_000]

Fly--
I agree with you that abortion is used by Demos as a scare tactic. It's actually very sad. Sometimes they seem to want to skirt around the issues rather than take them head on. Typical Gore.

But what do you call Repubs claims that if Gore is elected the gov't will take everyone's gun away? Sounds like using scare tactics to me.

And Bush won't say how he truly feels about abortion 'cse if he stated the party doctrine he would lose many female voters (most women are pro-choice). Besides, his VP has already stated his opinion—Cheney is strongly opposed to it. I doubt if Bush disagrees.

Pam--
Why won't you teach in private school? Do you find public education more rewarding? Not a dig, just a question from someone who thought about teaching at one time, then decided that he didn't want to be a referee/babysitter/warden.

MM
--Still straddling

[KC Hawke]

Mark M said:
I would vote Democrat if I could trust them to not outlaw law-abiding citizens from having guns.

. . . ummm . . . isn't this a right protected by the Constiution?

[KCWolfman]

I agree about the scare tactics. It's a real BIG turnoff to me.

As far as Bush and abortion, I don't believe his position is the same as Cheney's. From the small amount he has "let out" about abortion, I get the distinct impression that he doesn't like abortion but is also not willing to legislate against it definitely is a highly personal and moral issue.

People are far less absolute and more pragmatic than often is presented in the media...<BR>

[Baby Lee]

CRP:

But how many laws already infringe upon that constitutional right?

------------------
bk

[Luzap]

CRP: not for long if the looney left has their way. They would also like to take a crack at the 1st ammendment as well (campaign finance reform).

Pam: Im sorry, were those source supposed to be those 'public' record facts? I find them severely lacking.

[KCTitus]

Mark,
It is not a scare tactic. Did you watch the debates?. When guns came up Gore said that he was not for taking away rifles from hunters.It is what is not said here that is the issue. Why does he specify rifles? Is he for the removal of handguns?. What about the rights of citizens to protect themselves and secure liberty and freedom for our country?. It doesn't sound like someone who's intent is to secure these freedoms.

------------------
BIG DADDY - Not to be confused with that loser Big Daddy on the other BB

[This message has been edited by BIG_DADDY (edited 11-02-2000).]

[Kurt Surber]

Come on ChiefRedPAnts - ya' gotta know that answer to that one

"depends on who you ask."

[Luzap]

There's a very easy and more lawful way to handle the abortion issue.

repeal Roe v. Wade and draft an ACTUAL constitutional ammendment or let the states decide.

Roe v. Wade should never have been ruled upon by the Court as it didnt have jurisdiction under the 10th ammendment-- Judicial Activism at its worst hour.

[Kurt Surber]

99

[KCWolfman]

Can't we all just talk about sex, lies and videotape instead?! http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/eek.gif

100! 100! You suckas! 100! 100!


[This message has been edited by TheFly (edited 11-02-2000).]

[Kurt Surber]

Dang it Fly - I really wanted that 100 post!!

[KC Hawke]

someone explain to me how a law can infringe on a Constitutional right?

[KCWolfman]

Na na na na naaaaaaaaaaa! http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/eek.gif

[TheFly]

Pam wrote,

"It has nothing to do with how good teachers are or are not. IT is strictly about money."

This is soley responsible for how bad our schools are today. The focus is on the money or the quality of the teaching and not on the kids.

Selfish teachers cans stay selfish as far as I'm concerned but they better damn well start getting results whether they have to "coach" or "teach" or whatever. <P>

[Kurt Surber]

CRP - in a sentence, by limiting the scope, extension or applicability of said right.

ie - 2nd amendment - what are "arms"? Can one only bear "arms" in the maintenance of "a well-regulated militia."

1st amendment - what is speech? Is all speech granted equal protection, no matter the message, no matter the recipient, no matter the form?

[KCWolfman]

Roe v Wade is NOT a law. It is a court ruling. By the highest court of the land. Hence, it has the force of law.

It has often occurred that localities, states, and Congress have approved laws that are unconstitutional, but were not tested in a court of law. When tested, they are thrown out as unconstitutional. It has happened before. It will happen again.

Roe v Wade was a fine example of a court ruling outside of the constitution. Since the Constitution said nothing on abortion, the court justices at the time took it as a green light to okay abortion as a "right"...

This is a danger of judicial activism. I'm more angry about judicial activism than I am about abortion. And I think that's what a lot of people don't like, the idea that you can make a "law" by ruling on a court case outside of the Constitution. Doesn't that make the Constitution not worth the paper it's written on?<BR>

[KC Hawke]

" . . .I'm goin' down, down baby ... your street in a Range Rover ... BOOM,BOOM . . . "


whoops ... I broke your windows ... sorry

------------------
C.R. Pants
(The Resident liberal)

[Jeff_000]

Big Daddy--
Sorry, I missed the debates. The Mrs. and I were looking at houses . . . just moved in to our 1st . . . so I have got my info late and/or in snippets. But I've got enough info to know I don't like either of them.

CRP--
Look at BDs post. Also, the constitution was written in a way so that it can be interpreted differently by different generations/political ideologies/situations. Abortion wouldn't have been legal in the 1800s or early 1900s, but is in the late 1900s/2000s. Granted, like the earlier post stated, it shouldn't have been a SC decision. Let's put it to a vote.

Damn! I need to type faster!

MM
--Will get that 100 someday!

[KCTitus]

Pants,
You have got to be kidding. They have already outlawed MANY guns, clips ect.. They can do whatever they want, they are the goverment. We will just make an amendment and band there goes your rights. I am not going to keep babbling - you were kidding right?

------------------
BIG DADDY - Not to be confused with that loser Big Daddy on the other BB

[Kurt Surber]

Pam says
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR> It has nothing to do with how good teachers are or are not. IT is strictly about money. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I hear
It has nothing to do with G-Dub's position on abortion, the military, taxes, or the price of wheat in Russia. It is strictly about what I think will happen to my union.

I can sympathize with how demoralizing it appears now, the prospects for competing. But the auto industry, the tech industry, manufacturing, all of these have faced this before and discovered two things - Talent will win out and competition is good. Can anyone refute that the adjustments the Japanese forced on the auto trade haven't, on the whole, produced better cars better workers and better jobs? Or that the downsizing disaster of the early '90's didn't produce more efficient companies and allow the growth of new upstarts?

[This message has been edited by JC-Johnny (edited 11-02-2000).]

[KC Hawke]

what kinda guns do you need that were "banned"?

[Luzap]

JC- I have to disagree, GM's answer to the smaller japanese cars of the early 80's was the Chevette and we all know what a QUALITY car that was.

[KCTitus]

Mark,
Interpretation is a convenient excuse. The right of the citizens to own guns was to insure freedom, militias ect. For someone to try and interpret that any other way would be to blatantly lie to try and expand the power of the federal goverment which is already out of control.

BIG DADDY
Doesn't need the goverment to protect him from citizens.

[KCWolfman]

CUT IT OUT!!!! You guys (and gals) are getting me all hot and frothy with all this political talk!

If you don't stop I'm going to run up and down my street bare *** naked carrying a Bush/Cheney sign in one hand and a Gore/Lieberman sign in the other!!!!!!

http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[Jeff_000]

BD--
I agree with you!! I'm not saying they have the right to take them away, nor am I saying the Demos will. You asked how can a law override the Constitution. I'm just saying it has, and will again, be done. That's all.

MM
--Getting tired on the fence.

P.S. Gotta go now. I'll check in tommorrow morning. See ya!

[Luzap]

Fly: Just make sure that you have Bush/Cheney in the right hand and Gore/Liebermann in the left. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[KCTitus]

Mark,
You have apparently got me confused with Mr. Pants http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/wink.gif

[KCTitus]

Pants,
We will be down to BB guns if the demos have it their way. The right of the citizenship to have guns is to secure liberty and freedom from OUR OWN goverment as much as any other. How in the hell are we going to do that if they keep making more and more guns illegal?.

BIG DADDY
You asked how your constitutional rights can be taken and I was just providing examples. I could do that all day.

[KC_red]

Elephant in the Snickers commercial: "I wear the same pants as my dad."

Donkey: "I invented pants."

These two yahoos are a complete waste of time. Future generations will look back and see this election as further proof that our capitalist democracy is failing.

[Snapper]

I took 2 years of elementary ed before I decided I didn't want to deal with a bunch of whiney administration that were in the business because they were picked on in school..

Tell me this. If a companies sales department is failing to effectively market a product(school/teachers/ litterate student), A salesman is NOT guaranteed a job, and the company may "re-evaluate" its marketing strategy to become more effective. This may involve new policies and STAFF if thats what it takes to get the job done...Why should any less be expected for the education of the future of our nation?

[Kurt Surber]

KCTitus - I meant in the long term. The small, efficient cars were still better than the chevette and forced US automakers to go beyond the first iteration. Actually, the gas crunch probably brought around the chevette and without external competition, we'd still be driving fuel efficent CRAP, with no improvement or innovation.

But my central point actually was my frustration over alarmists who see a single issue red flag and blast the candidate willy-nilly on a broad range of issues. If you have a problem with a candidate, vocalize that problem honestly. Don't throw in a tons of other snarking, hoping to cast a wide enough net to p!ss enough people off.

I think the worst takes the form of people who discuss things rationally for a while. Then when the debate begins to go south on their end, start lipping-off about the "death machine" in Texas.

SFW!!

Bush is the last in a long line of decision-making, starting with the citizen-juror, through the Supreme Court. No There is no difference whatsoever between Gore's and Bush's position on the issue of the death penalty. The president possesses no effective platform to guide death penalty policy at the federal level. The only reason to even mention it is to get in a cheap shot.

[This message has been edited by JC-Johnny (edited 11-02-2000).]

[Luzap]

JC: I was being sarcastic. I totally agree that the japanese replete with Charles Demmings managment principles waylayed the american auto industry.

It was a good thing, and now we have a better product(s) for it.

[Snapper]

Wasn't it Winston Churchill that said

" A person at 20 who isn't a liberal, doesn't have a heart. A person at 40 who isn't a conservative, doesn't have a brain."

I am actually an independent converted from the left,and leaning towards the right...I guess I'm ahead of schedule.

[Jeff_000]

Big Daddy--
(in best Homer Simpson) DOHT!! Sorry. I'm doing this at work between printing Medicare Supplement outlines . . . lost track. I won't be able to post at work for much longer, though. Looks like I'll be a Fri. afternoon poster (get off early). See ya!

MM
--Working too hard, getting confused, trying not to get fired!

[Jeff_000]

Iowa--
Beautiful quote! I'm 30, so I guess that's why I straddle the fence . . . too much heart ot be conservative, too much head to be Republican.

MM
--Just following Churchill's guidelines

[KC_red]

Why public schools say that they need more money:

It is simple really, teacher salaries in public schools are so low that quality personel opt for other positions that are more lucrative. If your failing company wants to hire new staff, they have to do it at the market level of pay or they won't get quality people and your company will still suck.

This is one of the problems with our capitalist democracy. People who really have no societal value when you really look at it (like atheletes and actors) are paid millions of dollars while policemen and teachers have to work extra jobs just to support themselves and their families.

"Bump and thump!"

Y'all can go on your "harumph" kick some more. Now back to regularly scheduled ridicule of the "big bad nasty liberals".

Fly - you should put "Bush/Dick" on that sign in your right hand. I know that's the main reason a lot of you are really supporting them. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

[KC_red]

Wasn't it Harry S. Truman who said, "If you want to live like a Republican, vote Democrat."

[Luzap]

DJ: the education is not a 'capitalist' system or even a market system, so you just made a point against your communist/socialist sympathies.

If there was ACTUAL competition in the education field, the overall product/service would be greater.

Of course, I can understand how someone of your persuasion would be hard pressed to understand that.

[KC_red]

Titus - I was just referencing Iowanian post:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>"Tell me this. If a companies sales department is failing to effectively market a product(school/teachers/ litterate student), A salesman is NOT guaranteed a job, and the company may "re-evaluate" its marketing strategy to become more effective. This may involve new policies and STAFF if thats what it takes to get the job done...Why should any less be expected for the education of the future of our nation?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regardless of either of our ideological stances, you think teachers are not underpaid?<BR>

[Snapper]

disco,

The problem with Harry S. statement is that I don't belong to a bellyaching special interest group, and therefor, they don't work for "my people"

so sorry to be a straight caucasian agriculture american of gun owning rural decent. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

Disco, I understood your post...I was simply asking a question...answers appreciated.

[This message has been edited by Iowanian (edited 11-02-2000).]

[Luzap]

Teachers pay is irrelevant when discussing the current system. Their pay is low in that system because the current system is top heavy (as with all govt/monopoly systems) and most of the money is wasted there on beauracracy.

When Washington DC spends $8000 per year to educate a student to the worst education in the country, it's not the teacher's pay that's the issue, but rather the system.

[KC_red]

Titus - Also thanks for helping to make my point to Iowanian that schools are not a 'capitalist' system. See, we can agree on some things. And I don't think you know my persuasion with regard to several issues, so please try not to assume more in the future. The main confusion for me is how the Repubs have adopted positions that were formerly regarded as liberal ideals and the Dems have adopted positions that were formerly conservative. Like I said before, Repubs are for financial freedom, Dems are for personal freedom. I'm just for freedom.

Iowanian - I don't really agree with the quote. I just wanted to post another prominent historical figure's view on the subject. Since some Brit. was quoted regarding our political system.

I know it is hard for all of us to read intonation and intent on a thread. I try to account for that, and sometimes I screw up. Hopefully, some of you dogpilers will realize this and we can all be Chiefs fans first, BB buddies second, and ideological mudslingers last. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif<P>

[KC_red]

I'm all for the "less beauracracy". I'm also for less legislation. I think Norman Einstein (that was for Joe58) once stated something to the effect that the best solutions are the simplest ones.

I say we build a Thunderdome and throw all the possible candidates in it along with a couple of "secret celebs" and let them all duke it out. X number of men/women enter, one man/woman leaves. It's that simpe. I just wish the Isrealis and Palestinians could adopt something like that.

Just think of all the tax money you would save due to pay-per-view revenue (we just have to keep Don King out of it). Cha-ching!

[This message has been edited by DiscoJones (edited 11-02-2000).]

[Snapper]

He's-n-she's

I post and read to learn as much as to spew my views...I do like seeing the other sides of arguments, try to learn from the good ones, and leave my boring @$$ job a little smarter for the wear..I don't even mind a bad question or comment being smacked out of the park..when i'm wrong, i'm wrong...

I understand the capitolist argument...thats part of why I'm not a teacher now/pay...but in theory, if something isn't working, it isn't working...and needs a solution. I think schools should teach a little more "reading writing and arithmatic" instead of feel good crap...thicken the skin of the youth for the real world that doesn't give 2 $h!ts about them..

???GWB's wife is a teacher/educator...why does the left say he doesn't care about education?

[This message has been edited by Iowanian (edited 11-02-2000).]

[KC_red]

I agree that it should not be up to the school to teach children how to act like people and not animals. Here I will have to agree with Clint's earlier post that the responsibility for that lies soley on the parents. But with multi-income families come latch-key kids. So ask yourself this question, is my carreer more important that raising my family? If you think so, then don't have a family - it's that simple. Womens' lib. may have its positive aspects, but it's also forcing our kids to be raised in day-care and school. I know that comment will sound bad - I just think that somebody (mom or dad) needs to take care of business at home and stop worrying so much about the rat race.

[Luzap]

DJ: I can only read from your previous posts. I read three straight posts from you where the point was how 'our capitalist democracy' is a failure.

I can infer one of two things. One, that you are being sarcastic and if this is true, you could have just said 'I was being sarcastic'. The other is that you actually believe that some other form of government/economic system would be a better success. Im its the latter and would encourage you to defend your beliefs.

That said, please give me an example of how democrats increase my 'personal freedom' by increasing my taxes and the federal goverments control over my daily life.

Also, the main reason for the two income family is a direct result of the current tax burden being put onto families. My wife works, it's not a career but we need her income to pay the taxes that are levied on us to which goes to this failing education system, a flop of a healthcare system in Medicare and a joke of a 'retirement' system in social security.

Maybe great 'socialist' ideals dont work when actually tried.

[KC_red]

Titus - Okay please try to bear with me. I will do what I can in the time that I have.

I actually do think that the capitolist system is breaking down in many aspects (class disparity resulting in more crime and more discrimination, inequality in our justice system, special interest influence on politics, disporportionate pay for jobs - see police & teachers vs. atheletes & actors, etc.), while it is also excelling in others (technological advancement, medical research, etc.). There isn't a system that has been tried that I think will work better right now, but I still wonder about other possibilities. For instance, I went to a movie and they showed commercials before said movie. I wondered why I had to pay for the movie if it was already sponsored by someone else. Isn't that what the commercials are for? Anyway, I had a vision of a purely capitolist-corporate structure where the needs of the poor were actually taken care of by big business instead of govt. (republican ideal). It would be like, "This bag of groceries has been brought to you by Microsoft" or whoever. I know it's a stretch, but it's also one of the best ways to gain customers.

(cont.)

[KC_red]

Personal freedom example - abortion is the obvious. I was primarily referring to the Repubs tendancy to dwell on issues like abortion and gay rights. Things that are really nobody's business but those who are directly involved.

I don't see an easy solution to your predicament regarding having to have two incomes. It is easy to say that two-parent families with at least one child under 18 should receive an additional deduction should one parent choose not to work. But is that really enough? Do we really want more obscure deductions and loopholes in the already overwhelming tax structure? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and presume (as dangerous as that is) that you both are not working so that you can get a BMW SUV and go to the country club on the weekends while your children find stronger family ties in a gang. Believe it or not, this is happening. See, the capitolist system in which we reside puts money first and everything second. Your value as a person is more often than not determined by how much you bring in annually.


I must go shortly, so please forgive if I duck out. I appreciate a true dialogue, but unfortunately these are not simple issues and cannot be decided with simple answers.

[Ozarks-Chiefs-Fan]

Pam,

I do not agree. Clinton took office in 1993 and the stock market over the next two years gained about 7%, being generous. When the republicans took over congress the stock market went over 10000 for the first time ever.

Look at our military, right now if we had two minor conflicts we would not have the forces to endure. It would virtually leave our shores unprotected from any Tom, Dick or Harry that wanted to take over.

I won't say that the republicans will not let that happen, but it is a sure thing with Gore. It could even happen if Bush is president and the demo's have control of the house and senate.

Check out the history, you're a teacher, you have access to some pretty good stuff.

The school system is in the condition it is due to the lack of morals that have been pushed into the system. (this all started in 1962 MMO'H)

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Nuc'em all and let those who remain sort them out!

[Luzap]

In your movie example, the additional commercials are usually the studios pimping some of their other products...It's a captive audience and free advertising for the studio. You paid for the movie because you wanted to see the movie regardless of whether or not the movie was paid for for other means. Using that logic, one could argue that when a studio releases its movies on VHS or DVD, they should be given free to those that already saw the movie...poppycock.

Second, you mention a 'pure' capitalist structure. We dont have one and the republicans ideal is not to expect 'big business' to take care of the poor. The republican ideal is to teach people self reliance and responsibility. Those that are diligent, self reliant and responsible will overcome adversity. That said, the remainder of those 'left behind' would be helped by churches, synagouges, and other charitable organizations.

[chief18]

Typical liberal tactic.....scare 'em into voting for you.

Post Abe Lincoln, every major war / conflict the US has participated in started with a democrat in office.

WWI - Woodrow Wilson
WWII - FDR
Korea - Harry "the buck stops here" Truman
Vietnam - JFK

Now, what information that you possess, what historical events that you refer to, would lead you to think that a republican administration will plunge this country into war?

I can't think of any, other than the age old liberal myth that republicans are war mongers. This was used very effectively against Goldwater, but no so against Reagan.

Signed,

An objective libertarian.

PS/ In regards to Mr. Lincoln, I guess you can add him to the aforementioned list of democrats as well. It seems current day revisionists are claiming that the republican party Lincoln served, then, is today's democratic party, now.

If that makes any sense.
<P>

[chief18]

In regards to a few of the posts below, discussing "two family incomes".....it doesn't take TFIs to pay taxes, however, it does take TFIs to live the supposed "Amercian dream" and pay the penalties that "dream" incurs.

It's a true shame that people are penalized so dramatically for living that "dream" and contributing to that "dream".

What's really mind-boggling is how much better our current lifestyles are compared to those of the generations before us, especially when we're paying 50% plus of our income to taxes.

<BR>

[KC_red]

Titus - I'm back and I don't know for how long, but her I go again:

Movie - actually they have been showing the same commercials that they show on TV (and they don't have anything to do with the studios). Most recently, I saw a commercial for Coke and one for the new Pontiac Aztec. Both were shown before the previews. If my movie was sponsored by Coke or Pontiac at least the ticket prices or concessions should be less, I think, call me noots.

(more to come)

[KC_red]

Republican Ideal - I was just putting my own creative twist on the current system. The Repub Ideal that I referred to was simply that individuals who need help would get it through the private sector and not from the govt. I think we can agree on that. Basically, consumerism drives our lives in America (the American Dream mentioned previously). If we allow corporate America to "sponsor" us, we could eliminate sales taxes and still end up paying less for the same products while the corporations still gain the same profit. And by rehabbing down-and-outs into productive consumers, they will be building their customer base for the future. It really becomes a kind of capitolist-socialism (I know, y'all think I'm a lunatic now, but hear me out). When the corporations are publically held, then it is in the masses' (stock holders) best interest for the company to prosper. It is also in the corporations' best interests for the masses to prosper; it results in more profits through consumer spending. I don't have all the details worked out yet like which programs would be corporately sponsored and which ones wouldn't, but I'm working on it. I would also retain the democratic aspects of our country, but I would work harder to include every individual citizen. Using current technology, we could use SS#s as voting IDs and everyone would be allowed one vote on each issue before the people. You could do it on a national extranet linked to libraries or something like that. This would help to counter the inevitable involvement of the corporations and their ability to take advantage of the society. So maybe we have a three party system. Corporate, Citizen, and Judicial. Change is inevitable, it's what you contribute to it that matters.


[This message has been edited by DiscoJones (edited 11-02-2000).]

[AustinChief]

Wow, Pam - this is the most reactionary post I have ever seen from you. There is absolutely no basis in fact whatsoever.

So I guess I can play too, right.

Hold onto your money. If Gore is put in office within 2 years socialized medicine will have run out every intelligent doctor in the United States to locate in another country. Your liver transplant will be put on hold until the next fiscal budget committee meets. Your education dollars will line the NEA's pocket and never reach a classroom. If you earn over 30,000 a year your taxes will increase. And we wont need to be at war as Albert will give Cuba the state of Florida as an apology for the way we have treated them for the last 40 years.

But hey, your prescriptions will cost less than your dog's, and thats what really matters, right?

[redbrian]

Pam-

That must have been some union rally. Curious, do they actually print this stuff out and pass it around, or just hope you remember it once you get online. http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

[elvislivesinkc]

I like your take on Gore giving Florida to Cuba, Russ. Of course, if what we saw of Florida during the Elian fiasco is any indication, its already Cuban anyway...

And while Castro would likely nationalize Disney World, at least you'd be able to smoke a decent cigar while standing on line for Space Mountain!

[Duck Dog]

What makes you think that Castro would want Florida?

Luz
he'd make sure that every Disney World line was just as equaly long and slow...

[This message has been edited by Luzap (edited 11-03-2000).]

[Gaz]

The new ride next year at Disneyworld could be the white water innertube ride.

[Gaz]

This is what Wall street thinks about Bush and a recession....
http://cnnfn.cnn.com/2000/11/02/markets/wallst_election/

[htismaqe]

LOL!!! Nice talking points Pam! Did you get thosefrom your local DNC headquarters? http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif What you forgot to mention is that you will have more money to hold on to because Bush is going to give you some of your money back! And besides, you don't wan't to hold on to it for crying out loud. That is what will send us in to recession. If you spend money than companies make money therefore thier value goes up, and you have a healthy economy. Another point, if people are buying lots of stuff then companies have to produce more stuff to meet the demand. To create more stuff you need employees. So tax cuts not only help to create a healthy economy, but they also help create jobs! And any economist that says other wise is lying to you. LONG LIVE REAGANOMICS!!!

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WHEN THE GOING GETS TOUGH, THE TOUGH GET GOING!