Quote From Gunther That Proves HE is the Cancer not JR

[netscape]

I posted this on the old BB, & thought everyone should see it.

I just got the September 10 edition of the Chiefs Report, which was written before the Titans Game. If you were disappointed in the play calling on Sunday, and you want to remain a Gun fan don't read this quote:

"The bottom line is we're going to run the ball when we can, and when we are in a situation when we need to throw, we're still going to run the football."

This is a direct quote from Gunther from before the Titans Game evidently he wasn't kidding!

What a stupid thing to say, and an even more stupid thing to do! The Chiefs ran twice on 3rd & 13, They ran 4 times from 1st & goal, and they sacrificed the game by trying to run in the 4th qtr when they couldn't run all day.

There is another quote in this article about how Gun told JR to NEVER throw the ball if they were backed up in their own territory, and just to get in good position for punting.

Jimmy Raye, I am sorry that I badmouthed you. Gunther's Idea of Offensive philosophy is to try to prove to the other head coach that he is the more stubborn coach. Good plan idiot! How about trying to gameplan to take advantage of the other teams weakness in a given situation?

I am officially off of the Gun bandwagon, and it pains me to say it because I really liked gun, but his offensive philosophy is horrible. With this philosophy the Chiefs will NEVER be able to use their 2 best weapons effectively (SLYMO & GONZO), and that is sad because they could both be stars in this league. <P>

[Michael Michigan]

My entire stance has been this. If it is Gun's fault, then Gun must go. If it is the coordinator's fault, Gun is the one who hired and kept the coordinator, so it all comes back to Gun either way. Bottom line, Gun must go...

[Bob Dole]

Da, Your logic is 100% correct! The common denominator in all equasions however is "The King," he is responsible for it ALL! He must go first! (For a long term solution that is.)

[Michael Michigan]

Well I've never been a huge Carl fan, but I've never been a huge detractor either. He has done his good things for the organization and he has proven that he can build winning teams. I think some coaching decisions and some things on the field that were out of his hands during the playoffs have prevented him from going to the Super Bowl. He has also made his mistakes too, from not being able to draft an impact offensive player until Gonzo to sitting pat after the '95 season with the same teamfor '96 to not going after any of the free agent corners that hit the market this offseason so we could continue playing man coverage because Warfield sucks and he should have been able to see that, I sure as hell did after last year's Tampa game.

I doubt Carl is going anywhere, but if Carl does go, I'd hope we could bring in a big time coach to run the show. Otherwise I'd hope Carl learns his lesson and goes out and hires a smart offensive guy to run the show...

[wutamess]

There is a HUGE flaw in logic here. The faulty assumption is that because Gunther is not a good HC, that therefore Raye is not a bad OC. It is a common mistake in logical analysis.

The evidence of Raye’s ineptitude at OC is clear. Check his resume. He has been a failure every time he has held the position.

I am, however, coming to the reluctant conclusion that Gunther also needs to go. I still believe he was what we needed when Marty bailed and left us a team of showboating thugs. Gunther brought some discipline and a sense of Team to a bad of “me-me-me” players. But it is becoming clear that Gunther has been Peter Principled into the Head Coach position. I hope his pride would allow him to accept the DC position, ‘cause I loved his ‘tude on Defense.

The only good thing I have to say about Gunther as a coach right now is that he is playing the rookies. Since we are probably going nowhere until we have a complete turnover of the coaching staff, at least the young kids are getting some serious PT.

xoxo~
gaz
almost ready to acknowledge that there are Four Stooges.<BR>

[Mosbonian]

Bravo, Gaz...

Gun has to be given the blame for not recognizing the failures of our offense and trying something new or different to score points and win games.

It's obvious to me that he is neither interested in scoring or believes his defense can do both score and defend the other offense.

136 yards on 57 rushing attemps is PATHETIC for a team that supposedly is a running team. This aint gonna work against SD. It's time to throw that other offensive 'gimmick', Gun, and it's called the forward pass.

[BroncoFan]

As recently as one month ago, Bob Dole was willing to give Gunther the benefit of the doubt. The benefit that he was forced to keep Raye and Stock and little Schotty. That benefit has nearly disappeared in the past 4 weeks. His inconsistent behavior contributes significantly to that, as does the play calling.

Gun either doesn't realize there is a problem and therefore has done nothing (or has just done the same thing as the incompetent coordinators), or is unwilling to address the problem at its root. Either way, Bob Dole has lost his faith in Gun.

[flowergirl]

I agree with all of you, but will your feelings change towards any members of the coaching staff if a miracle occurs and the Chiefs end the season at, say, 11-5?

[wutamess]

Clint-

No.

My opinion of the Chiefs staff is not based on our 0-2 start. I take many factors into account before I form an opinion. That is one reason that Schottenheimer and Gunther got the benefit of the doubt up to this point. They were both rookies at their respective jobs at got the same tolerance that all rookies get. They have, however, proven to me that they are just as unqualified for their jobs as the rest of the Stooges.

My opinion could change if I saw changes in the performance of the Stooges. If Raye learned to call an unpredictable Offense that took advantage of mismatches and kept the enemy off-balance, then I would have to reconsider my opinion that he is unqualified for the position. Ditto the other Stooges.

If, however, we stumbled along, got some lucky bounces and finished up 11-5 without crisp, clear evidence of a MASSIVE shift in coaching philosophy, then I would still be done with the Stooges.

xoxo~
gaz
done and done again with the Stooges.<BR>

[flowergirl]

Gaz,

I agree with you 100%.

Your last post also sums up exactly how I feel about Grbac, even after last season. His 3,200 yds, 22 tds & 15 ints were, to me, the equivalent of the Chiefs pulling a miracle 11-5 season out of their --- this year without really improving. The change(s) still needs to be made.

[JOhn]

What I am confused about is the inconsistant comments and sound-bites from the media.

Maybe Gun is on something?????????

[This message has been edited by dawsonpa (edited 09-15-2000).]

[Dartgod]

I would love to see an 11-5 season, I don't belive it can be this year.

Like most have said, you never change OC in the middle of a season, likewise look at the history of changing HC in the middle of the season. Dismal begats dismal.

Looks like we are in for a long season unless what we are all seeing is a fluke.

Look forward to Sunday, SD 5th in the league in rush defense, 16th in pass defense. Obversly the Chiefs are 29th in rush offense and 24th in pass offense.

On the reverse KC is 23rd against the rush and 23rd on pass defense where SD is 26th in rushing and 29th in passing.

Need I say more?

------------------
Remember Joe Delaney?
Some of us do and are acting on our belief that he was a hero.
This is a bandwagon that all are invited to jump on!!!

37 Forever

[This message has been edited by TomCash (edited 09-15-2000).]

[wutamess]

Clint-

Grbac is not franchise QB material. I would not build a team around him, but I will keep him [with a new coaching staff and ] until we find our QBOTF. Despite desperate searching, I find no workable alternative who would be a true upgrade at the position [I am fairly sure that NFL rules prohibit kidnapping and brainwashing Peyton Manning]. There just ain't that many great QBs anymore. As soon as we determine that we have found our QBOTF, then I would sit Grbac down and throw that young pup into the fire.

xoxo~
gaz
doesn't love Grbac, but will use him until someone better comes along.<BR>

[Dartgod]

I would bench #18 and put #1 in. He still has the intelligence to do the job. His physical charictaristics may be dimenished but he has what Elvix doesn't ... ... HEART!

[wutamess]

Tom-

I would agree if we were a QB away from a Super Bowl run. Sadly, we are not a QB away.

Grbac has done a good job so far this year, given the brain-dead Offensive plays that are called. Personally, I would rather see Grbac start audibling out of those stupid calls. He might still fail, but at least it would be his fault. If I am going to crash and burn, I at least want to be driving the bus when it happens.

For those who want Grbac on the pine, if you are going to replace Grbac, you need to replace him with someone who might be our QB while we look for our QBOTF. That might take a couple of years. Moon is obviously not the man to be our QB for a couple of years. If you INSIST on benching Grbac [a mistake, IMO], then you have to go with Collins.

xoxo~
gaz
amazed that he has ended up as a Grbac defender.<BR>

[JOhn]

That is just it. WE do not have, will not have a QBOTF as long as peterson is holding the reigns. ALL we will ever get is rejects from other teams.

WE should have tried to get Clint Stoerner but now his is Dallas property

[Michael Michigan]

"The faulty assumption is that because Gunther is not a good HC, that therefore Raye is not a bad OC. It is a common mistake in logical analysis."

You lost me there Gaz. That wasn't the assumption I was making. What I was saying was either Raye is a bad offensive coordinator, and Gunther's faliure to see that and get rid of him brings the blame back to Gunther (which is what I believe) or that should it be true as Horn says and Raye has his hands tied by Gun, it is thus still Gun's fault, and thus either way the bottom line is Gun is the problem...

[Jim Wilken]

Go to sleep, GUN.

[Mosbonian]

Clint: 11-5 would almost as much of a miracle as Carl Peterson actually getting fired by Lamar. Neither will happen so the point is moot.

Pam:
will not have a QBOTF as long as peterson is holding the reigns. ALL we will ever get is rejects from other teams. - How do you get a QBOTF when drafting an average of #21 since 1990?

How many Franchise QB's come out of the draft outside the top 10 picks? How many Franchise QB's has Carl passed up when drafting?<BR>

[flowergirl]

In your opinion, how long do you think Carl will be around? 20 years? 30?

Maybe Carl will inherit the team.

My stomach just started churning...

[Mosbonian]

Clint: I know you hate me for this opinion http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/wink.gif , but I honestly do not believe that Carl will be sent packing until Lamar hands the team to his son? or other family member.

I could be completely wrong on this, but that's what I believe.

Above that, though, it's not the GM it's the philosophy of play that is dictated to the team and I do NOT believe that this philosophy is driven by the GM. It's driven by the HC. The GM, however, does receive the blame for hiring the coach.

It is my hope that Carl proves that he has learned this is a flawed philosophy and hires someone who has an offensive mindset and a philosophy that fits NFL football in y2k.

[This message has been edited by KCTitus (edited 09-15-2000).]

[wutamess]

DaWolf-

I was coincidence that put my post directly after yours. I was responding to svuda's thread, not Reply #3.

Raye is a proven failure at OC, and was a proven failure at OC before coming to KC. He should never have been promoted to OC and he certainly should not have been retained.

But I do agree that the ultimate responsibility belongs to Gunther. I like Gunther. I thought he was a great DC. That four-blitz series against Buffalo still warms my crusty old heart. However, it is becoming clear that the HC job is too much for him. The Three Stooges must go, and I am reluctantly deciding that Gunther has to go with them.

xoxo~
gaz
really wanted Gunther to succeed.<BR>

[Michael Michigan]

My bad! http://www.ChiefsPlanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

Well it is early. Though I have begun my Gun bashing quite earlier than I expected this year, I am still somewhat optimistic and hope he gets the message soon. I doubt it, but it is not too late to turn it around, although we let two winnable games slip right through our hands, which makes the task even harder...

[shakesthecat]

I too really wanted Gun to succeed. I like Gun, but I'm in agreement with gaz. If the stooges must go, and we all agree they must go, than gun must go with them.

------------------
[b]ct
The 3 Stooges must go!!</B>

[netscape]

The BEST thing that could happen to this team: .. .. Gun admits that the run-only theory is stupid, endorses the use of "Frisbee Football" along with a balanced running attack to score a lot of points through the air with SLYMO, and GONZO. Chiefs go 11-5

The Next Best thing that could happen to this team: .. .. Gun sticks to his Guns, & Runs all the time to the point of stubborn foolishness. The running game & the Chiefs season are a complete failure. Chiefs go 3-13. WE draft a great QBOTF, fire Gun, Raye, Stock, and Cunningham. Bill Parcells Takes over the team.

The ABSOLUTE WORST thing that could happen to this team: .. .. Gun sticks to his guns, but mixes in just enough passing to go 8-8. We get a crappy draft pick, and stick with the same stupid Offensive philosophy & coaching staff. Looks like another bad year.

I hope Gun sees the light, and quickly becomes a more balanced, and progressive coach....But I am not holding my breath. If gun doesn't Morph into a more balanced coach real soon I will be hoping for a high draft pick, and a new staff.<BR>

[G_Man]

The biggest thing that the Coaches are missing is that they rely on the run to set up the pass, but absolutly refuse to do have the pass setup the run when the other team is stopping the run. If the run is not working then you have to change, we don't. I really think that if we took away the DL and put a brick wall there that Gun would have us run into the wall until it fell over, instead of passing around it.

[netscape]

Morphius You are right, and with Cloud running it would only have to be a 6 inch high brick wall.

[Mosbonian]

Svuba: bad news, you are never, ever going to get Bill Parcells out of NY or the New England area. He's an east coast guy.

[MegaChief]

I can't believe it took anyone this long to figure out that Gun is not cut out to be a head coach. He never accepts blame for a defeat and deferrs any questions about questionable playcalling to the coordinators. Not exactly what you like to see in a leader. Best we can hope for now is a 3-13 season, a high draft pick, and a housecleaning. I don't think Peterson needs to go, but it may be time for a change there too. Clint, I hate to break the bad news to you, but Peterson's predesessor, Jack Steadman, ran the Chiefs for 15 years before he was dismissed. I believe they made the playoffs once or twice during his tenure. Lamar is very loyal and I think Carl will stay as long as Carl wants to.

[MegaChief]

I can't believe it took anyone this long to figure out that Gun is not cut out to be a head coach. He never accepts blame for a defeat and deferrs any questions about questionable playcalling to the coordinators. Not exactly what you like to see in a leader. Best we can hope for now is a 3-13 season, a high draft pick, and a housecleaning. I don't think Peterson needs to go, but it may be time for a change there too. Clint, I hate to break the bad news to you, but Peterson's predesessor, Jack Steadman, ran the Chiefs for 15 years before he was dismissed. I believe they made the playoffs once or twice during his tenure. Lamar is very loyal and I think Carl will stay as long as Carl wants to.

[Snapper]

I was wondering who REALLY is to blame for the poor play calling so I asked Adam Teicher. I figured that he would know more than any of us. His response was as follows:


Adam Teicher (teicher), 09/15/00 05:01 pm (reply 466 of 467)
To Steve M.:

Cunningham gives Jimmy Raye parameters on how he wants the game called, but rarely does he tell Raye what play to call. That's the coordinator's job. But Cunningham sets the philosophy.
<BR>

[spe725]

Any Chance copies of that issue were mysteriously sent to opposing teams DC's?
Yea, probably not.
Uh, Uh, remember Paul "Can't" Hackett ? He seems pretty good compared to what has occured since he left. AT least he would throw the ball occasionally, he also had better scripted the first 15 plays or so. That's not a good sign.

[ct]

I hate to give any credit at all to the Packers, but Wolf saw his problem,, and eliminated it. Trouble now is the lack of talent, but I give E for effort on the coaching change.

[LD for KC]

Not only do I agree with the original post, I would like to add this.

IMHO, we continue to have mental mistakes because of the way Gun coaches, he has these guys so wound up that by game day they can't seem to stay onsides, and so aggressive they get out of position, which opens up our D to the long gainer.

------------------
J Smitty is happy C. Okoye will be in the Chiefs Ring of fame!!

[tomahawkchop]

Warpaint,

How does getting "so wound up" prevent the D-Linemen from watching the center snap the ball?

For that matter, how does Gunther's pre-game speeches cause them to LINE UP offsides?

As for the stagnant play-calling of the offense, has anyone ever seen JR screaming into his headset?

[LD for KC]

Injun,

I think way he coaches practice, the go, go, go, kill, kill, kill, attack, attack, attack, takes its toll on some of these guys. By Sunday, play like wild dogs comes to mind, emotions get the better of them so to speak.

I think this hinders clear rational thinking, the kind of thinking needed to do the simple things, like watch the center, line up onsides, & knowing the snap count.


<BR>