The Chiefs don't need an over priced FA to be better next year...

[|Zach|]

Ok here it goes. Most of the board will disagree with me. Some will pass me off as an idiot homer...some will say I don't know anything about football and thats fine. I expect this from Chiefsplanet. I would be dissapointed actully if I don't hear things like that and I will be dissapointed if Laz doesn't put himself on the cross in yet another thread for not being a homer but...

I believe the Chief defense will be better next year and here is why I believe that.

They don't have to be that much better for this team to get to the place it wants to be. They didn't win the superbowl last year but I believe the Colts were just as good as any team in the NFL. During the game we only needed the Colts to punt once. One little punt and the offense and special teams could have put it together enough to win the game. They tore apart our defense like it was a complete joke and it was a complete joke. The Colts would line up and Manning would walk his happy ass to all those lineman and just call out plays. For some reason the defense never decided to move or audible at all. Nothing would change and we would pretty much show what we were going to do before the play. I don't care who is playing defense when you play like that you are going to get your ass kicked.

Not every player that is a FA is going to be an automatic upgrade. It seems to be a very popular opinion that "anyone else would be better than what we have." I think this is foolish I think we have a great CB in Eric Warfield. Did he get beat last year? Of course he did its the damn NFL and offense is taking over. Did make a lot of great plays also? Yes. I think he did.

The Chiefs will have a better defense next year if... Ryan Sims plays up to his potential The defense attacks with 11 men doing their jobs Arm tackles are eliminated The intensity comes back (alot of that passion comes from coaching)I will be very worried about the Chiefs defense if... Maslowski is our MLB There isn't more rotating on the D Line to make use of our player's different strenghts Chiefs Planet members get control of wheeling and dealing with the Chiefs and we sign an over priced Hugh Douglas type playerPredictions from the thread to the field Eric Hick's will have a great season under Gunther's style of defense. Vonnie Holliday will have an awful season and either get beat out in camp or replaced in the regular season Mitchell if given the nod to start will be a solid player and fierce hitter in the middle for us. Gunther has a knack for developing talent at the LB position. William Bartee will play well in a limited roll for the Kansas City Chiefs In the coming years Julian Battle will become the best Chiefs CB since James Hasty

[the Talking Can]

I disagree about our defense, it has to get a lot better...beating the Colts is one thing, beating the Patriots another

but I agree about FA, and I'm glad we haven't signed any of these overpriced FAs....the only reason I was excited about Vincent was that I thought he would be reasonably priced due to age...but it seems maybe he's looking for more

our CBs are good enough if we have a real pass rush..but our DL suks baloney and Gun has a lot of work to do, I wouldn't mind a flyer on Sapp if the price is right...we'll see, still pretty earlier to worry about next year

[|Zach|]

I it has to get a lot better...beating the Colts is one thing, beating the Patriots another



I believe the Chiefs would have beat the Patriots had they played last year but that is neither here nor there.

I think the way our offense scores we only need a top 13 or so defense. Do I want it to be better? Of course. But I am looking at an NFL landscape where you really can't be that great on both sides of the ball.

[Logical]

A little homerish for me Zach but a nice thought out analysis.:thumb:

[big nasty kcnut]

Zach you may be right but if we didn't get improved on defense. You willing to see another lost chance to get to a superbowl.

[|Zach|]

A little homerish for me Zach but a nice thought out analysis.:thumb:

Thats why you guys pay me the big bucks.

[the Talking Can]

I think the way our offense scores we only need a top 13 or so defense.

I agree, but imho the distance between our D and a D ranked #13 is something equivalent to "a bananazillion."

[ChiefJustice]

Eric Hick's will have a great season under Gunther's style of defense.
Vonnie Holliday will have an awful season and either get beat out in camp or replaced in the regular season


I think you may have mixed these two names up. :p


I hope Hicks becomes a monster under Gun.I for one think he will fail
miserably.My prediction: Sims kills Hicks in week 6!
That is my rally cry for the '04 season.

[|Zach|]

I agree, but imho the distance between our D and a D ranked #13 is something equivalent to "a bananazillion."

ROFL I love the usage of words. I think you are right thought sadly. Although if we can just get a little tougher against the run we are gonna be ok. When you plug up that run your pass defense is always gonna come around with it. You can't really say the same thing flip flopped.

[Logical]

"a bananazillion."

Kudos from the peanut gallery on that phraseology.

[Cormac]

Very nice post ZachKC. I agree.

The big offseason improvement on D is the scheme. I will stick to my feeling that the coaching was largely at fault, not the players. I got what I wanted this offseason - a new defensive coach. I would have probably preferred that to keeping GRob, and signing Ray Lewis and Champ Bailey. Once the players know what it is they are supposed to be doing, and are allowed to do it, these players could look pretty good. I find myself completely unable to tell how good these players are, from what we have seen the last 3 years. When they hesitate on the pass rush, or look over their shoulders to find their "zone" instead of just tearing after the ball carrier, of course they look like crap. When Gun instils in them the "go after their heart, then take their soul" philosophy, I think we'll find we have some players.

[nmt1]

Zach, don't you realize that because Vermiel publicly stated we wouldn't be active in free agency this offseason and because we didn't sign anyone on the first day of free agency or have any visits set up for the first day of free agency and because Peterson and Vermiel had the audacity to be on vacation during the first days of free agency that we aren't trying to improve?

[MrBlond]

I disagree with just about every point Zach made. With the exception of no Maz in the Middle.

But I still respect Zach as a poster and do NOT consider him an idiot homer. And I do not think that he knows nothing about football. :D

[KHinz57]

Looks like Zach and I are the only ones on this board who agree that William Bartee under the guidance of Gunther Cunningham will turn out to be a pretty solid player in limited roles. Bartee has the tools to play ... but with Robinson's scheme last year, it was VERY easy to get burnt. Our best cornerback, Dexter McCleon, who normally does not get burned, actually did get burnt several times last year. Was it because he fell asleep or wasn't fast enough? No. The scheme Robinson ran was just horrible and he doesn't belong in the NFL under what he currently runs.

[MrBlond]

KHinz, otoh, is an idiot homer who knows nothing about football.

j/k :D

[KHinz57]

KHinz, otoh, is an idiot homer who knows nothing about football.

j/k :D

Okay, I'll admit it openly, I probably am an idiot homer ... who knows a little about football ... but if anyone watched the games last year and the year before that, and heck, the year before that, you could easily see that it probably wasn't any individuals fault that the Chiefs defense was so bad ... most of them have the necessary tools to do well ... but anytime you play under a horrible scheme, what do you expect to happen? Gunther Cunningham should've been back way sooner, and now because of thid idiocy with Greg Robinson, our window of opportunity is dangerously closing.

[htismaqe]

I've been saying since Gunther drafted him that Bartee has all the physical tools to be a good CB in this league.

[KHinz57]

I've been saying since Gunther drafted him that Bartee has all the physical tools to be a good CB in this league.

Well then that makes 3 of us ... because everyone else on here views William Bartee as the worst cornerback in the league. Just goes to show how much they really know. I'm not saying he's the best ... nor is he great, but I think he will play solid defensive under a truely solid defensive coordinator with a decent scheme.

[htismaqe]

Well then that makes 3 of us ... because everyone else on here views William Bartee as the worst cornerback in the league. Just goes to show how much they really know. I'm not saying he's the best ... nor is he great, but I think he will play solid defensive under a truely solid defensive coordinator with a decent scheme.

Many here threw an absolute fit when Gunther started Pat Dennis over Bartee when Warfield got hurt that season.

Gunther stated at the time that Dennis was more "ready" than Bartee, but that Bartee had far more potential. He said Dennis was as good as he would ever get, but Bartee needed work.

After that season, in comes Greg Robinson, who brought Ray Crock-o-shit with him.

I still think Bartee can be a good player given some decent coaching. I also think Battle has a bright future.

[MrBlond]

Carl Lewis has all the tools to be a HOF CB.

5 years of overwhelming evidence leads me to believe that he is far below an average NFL nickleback.

[htismaqe]

Carl Lewis has all the tools to be a HOF CB.

5 years of overwhelming evidence leads me to believe that he is far below an average NFL nickleback.

5 years?

William Bartee was drafted in the 2000 draft and has logged FOUR years of service. He played 1 season under Gunther and 3 under the unmentionable one.

It's all moot, anyway. This board literally BEGGED for Gunther Cunningham. They got him. Gunther thinks Bartee can play.

Maybe next time, people will be more careful what they wish for.

[KCTitus]

Maybe next time, people will be more careful what they wish for.

Lord, I sure hope not...it would take away all the fun.

[Rain Man]

It's all moot, anyway. This board literally BEGGED for Gunther Cunningham. They got him. Gunther thinks Bartee can play.

Maybe next time, people will be more careful what they wish for.

I make fun of Bartee's 45 degree field of vision as much as anyone, but if Gunther sees an upside to him then I'm willing to suspend my disdain for a season and give him the chance.

[Hoover]

I think Hicks is the one who finds himself on the bench behind Wilkerson or R-Kal. Holliday has a better first step and I think Gun will motivate him

[MrBlond]

5 years?

William Bartee was drafted in the 2000 draft and has logged FOUR years of service. He played 1 season under Gunther and 3 under the unmentionable one.

It's all moot, anyway. This board literally BEGGED for Gunther Cunningham. They got him. Gunther thinks Bartee can play.

Maybe next time, people will be more careful what they wish for.

I included his last year at Oklahoma. :D

I was ambivilant about Gun. I think he is a competent NFL DC. As was McGinnis and Jauron and Williams. I think, given some talent to work with, that he can field good defenses.

But returning the same 11 dregs that have sucked for 2 years doesnt give me much hope of seeing a dramatic improvement in our defense.

And, imo, Bartee is the dregiest dreg that dregged last year. As for Gun liking him, don't forget that Gun liked Kurt Schottenhiemer as his Defensive Coordinator.

[Baby Lee]

ROFL I love the usage of words.
ROFL ROFL - funny, I prefer grunts and finger pointing.

Posting "I love using words" on a BBS. . . ROFL

[Baby Lee]

Bartee gets beat by accurate passes. He generally covers well, but fails to look back for the ball. And the reason we notice his 'stiff neck' is because he's still in the picture when the ball lands in the reciever's arms. As maddening as it is to watch him get burnt like that, it is still much better than seeing other players get burnt and not even being in the picture.
From here, there are two things to improve on. Of course we can work on getting him to look around and feel the pass coming. But even more productive would be pass rush pressure. Don't let the QBs get off those perfect passes and the tightness of Bartee's coverage is gonna make the QB check down under pressure.
Bartee is gonna look a lot different to a QB under pressure than he does to a QB who has all day and the knowledge that, if he can float a perfect pass, he can get it to the receiver no matter how tight Bartee's coverage is.

[KC Dan]

What an idiot homer, Zach. ROFL

Nice layout of your thoughts, not bad at all. I happen to agree in large part that the leap required by the defense really isn't that much but the DL push and CB play must improve some way either by FA pickup and new scheme or by more enthusiasm. R Kal for example picked up the entire defensive intensity each time he stepped on the field last year. Hopefully, he will suu more action in 2004.

[MrBlond]

If we cannot give up on Bartee WTF can we give up on? Does Ted White still have time to develop into a solid NFL QB?

I mean 4 Frikken years (thanks, htis! :D) is a career in the NFL. At some point the sh!t play isnt just a fluke or an excellent throw by the QB or a great route by the WR or a bad scheme or an injury or poor coaching in college or being played out of his "natural position" or youth or inexperiance or an unlucky jersey number or off-the-field distractions or one leg shorter than the other.

Sometimes the butler did do it.

[ArrowheadHawk]

Bartee gets beat by accurate passes. He generally covers well, but fails to look back for the ball. And the reason we notice his 'stiff neck' is because he's still in the picture when the ball lands in the reciever's arms. As maddening as it is to watch him get burnt like that, it is still much better than seeing other players get burnt and not even being in the picture.
From here, there are two things to improve on. Of course we can work on getting him to look around and feel the pass coming. But even more productive would be pass rush pressure. Don't let the QBs get off those perfect passes and the tightness of Bartee's coverage is gonna make the QB check down under pressure.
Bartee is gonna look a lot different to a QB under pressure than he does to a QB who has all day and the knowledge that, if he can float a perfect pass, he can get it to the receiver no matter how tight Bartee's coverage is.By golly I bet your right.

[Rain Man]

Four years may not be an accurate representation, though.

For example, here's a typical CB's career progression.

1st year - Equivalent of rookie
2nd year - Equivalent of second-year player
3rd year - Equivalent of third-year player
4th year - Equivalent of fourth-year player

Here's Bartee's situtation

1st year under Kurt S. and Gun - Equivalent of rookie.
2nd year under Robinson - Equivalent of rookie.
3rd year under Robinson - Equivalent of college senior
4th year under Robinson - Equivalent of college junior.

I say we redshirt Bartee for a year and let him learn, and then draft him again in 2006.

[htismaqe]

I included his last year at Oklahoma. :D

I was ambivilant about Gun. I think he is a competent NFL DC. As was McGinnis and Jauron and Williams. I think, given some talent to work with, that he can field good defenses.

But returning the same 11 dregs that have sucked for 2 years doesnt give me much hope of seeing a dramatic improvement in our defense.

And, imo, Bartee is the dregiest dreg that dregged last year. As for Gun liking him, don't forget that Gun liked Kurt Schottenhiemer as his Defensive Coordinator.

Exactly the reason I was the subject of such derision five weeks ago.

[Baby Lee]

If we cannot give up on Bartee WTF can we give up on? Does Ted White still have time to develop into a solid NFL QB?

I mean 4 Frikken years (thanks, htis! :D) is a career in the NFL. At some point the sh!t play isnt just a fluke or an excellent throw by the QB or a great route by the WR or a bad scheme or an injury or poor coaching in college or being played out of his "natural position" or youth or inexperiance or an unlucky jersey number or off-the-field distractions or one leg shorter than the other.

Sometimes the butler did do it.
I'm not trying to excuse anything. I'm merely pointing out that Bartee has negatives [not looking for the ball], but he also has a strong positive [staying with his man]. Now, if the QB gets all day to make his throw, then Bartee's positive becomes irrelevant, because the QB knows that no matter how good the coverage looks an accurate pass WILL connect. BUT, if the QB is hurried, and all he gets to see is tight coverage on a man [which, I stress again, Bartee CAN provide] and a looming sack, he's not even gonna throw Bartee's direction. Think back, how often is Bartee burned when the QB is under quality pressure? Not nearly as often as you might think.

[htismaqe]

I'm not trying to excuse anything. I'm merely pointing out that Bartee has negatives [not looking for the ball], but he also has a strong positive [staying with his man]. Now, if the QB gets all day to make his throw, then Bartee's positive becomes irrelevant, because the QB knows that no matter how good the coverage looks an accurate pass WILL connect. BUT, if the QB is hurried, and all he gets to see is tight coverage on a man [which, I stress again, Bartee CAN provide] and a looming sack, he's not even gonna throw Bartee's direction. Think back, how often is Bartee burned when the QB is under quality pressure? Not nearly as often as you might think.

That's because Bartee is 6'2" and runs a 4.4 40.

Like I said, physically he's capable. He needs coaching.

[Mark M]

I've been saying since Gunther drafted him that Bartee has all the physical tools to be a good CB in this league.

Except for the one tool that is the most necessary to play CB:

instinct for the position.

Playing CB is one of the toughest positions to play -- most of the time you're all by yourself, covering half of field, while trying to keep up with some guy who is often bigger and faster. Plus, the WR knows where he's going, while the CB doesn't. Plus, the CB has to watch for the run. And when a CB gets burned, everyone knows about it.

I don't care if a CB can run a 3.0 40-yard time, can jump 62" and is 6'3" and 220. If he doesn't have the instincts -- that clock in his head that tells him to turn around, the feel for what a WR is going to do, the ability to read a play and make a break for the ball -- he will not succeed.

Bartee has physical gifts, but no true knowledge on how to play CB at a high level.

MM
~~:shrug:

[ArrowheadHawk]

That's because Bartee is 6'2" and runs a 4.4 40.

Like I said, physically he's capable. He needs coaching.Gunther is just the man to help him, but I'd just as soon have a pro bowler

[MrBlond]

I'm not trying to excuse anything. I'm merely pointing out that Bartee has negatives [not looking for the ball], but he also has a strong positive [staying with his man]. Now, if the QB gets all day to make his throw, then Bartee's positive becomes irrelevant, because the QB knows that no matter how good the coverage looks an accurate pass WILL connect. BUT, if the QB is hurried, and all he gets to see is tight coverage on a man [which, I stress again, Bartee CAN provide] and a looming sack, he's not even gonna throw Bartee's direction. Think back, how often is Bartee burned when the QB is under quality pressure? Not nearly as often as you might think.

No doubt QB pressure makes or breaks a CB. Thats why I hold out hope for Warfield. He has shown enough good plays to make me think that with pressure he would improve more.

But Bartee played worse than Warfield. Worse than McCleon. Hell, they played Woods in the nickle last year. All played better than Bartee. With the same pass rush. Expecting Bartee to make a quantum leap with a better pass rush (which is not given with the same 4 starting DLinemen) takes a leap of faith that I just don't have.

But like has been said the Bartee question is moot. If he comes back he will be the dime back. Behind McCleon, Warfield, Battle. And maybe a 2nd round pick. I just can't work up tears if we bring back such an irrelevent player.

[Cormac]

Here's Bartee's situtation

1st year under Kurt S. and Gun - Equivalent of rookie.
2nd year under Robinson - Equivalent of rookie.
3rd year under Robinson - Equivalent of college senior
4th year under Robinson - Equivalent of college junior.

I say we redshirt Bartee for a year and let him learn, and then draft him again in 2006.

ROFL

Hilarious.

ROFL

[htismaqe]

Except for the one tool that is the most necessary to play CB:

instinct for the position.

Playing CB is one of the toughest positions to play -- most of the time you're all by yourself, covering half of field, while trying to keep up with some guy who is often bigger and faster. Plus, the WR knows where he's going, while the CB doesn't. Plus, the CB has to watch for the run. And when a CB gets burned, everyone knows about it.

I don't care if a CB can run a 3.0 40-yard time, can jump 62" and is 6'3" and 220. If he doesn't have the instincts -- that clock in his head that tells him to turn around, the feel for what a WR is going to do, the ability to read a play and make a break for the ball -- he will not succeed.

Bartee has physical gifts, but no true knowledge on how to play CB at a high level.

MM
~~:shrug:

Go back and watch some tape over the last couple of years.

Bartee is the best run-stopping CB we have. I sincerely mean that.

That's why he's probably best-suited for safety.

[htismaqe]

No doubt QB pressure makes or breaks a CB. Thats why I hold out hope for Warfield. He has shown enough good plays to make me think that with pressure he would improve more.

But Bartee played worse than Warfield. Worse than McCleon. Hell, they played Woods in the nickle last year. All played better than Bartee. With the same pass rush. Expecting Bartee to make a quantum leap with a better pass rush (which is not given with the same 4 starting DLinemen) takes a leap of faith that I just don't have.

But like has been said the Bartee question is moot. If he comes back he will be the dime back. Behind McCleon, Warfield, Battle. And maybe a 2nd round pick. I just can't work up tears if we bring back such an irrelevent player.

Just an FYI, but the reason Woods played nickel was because Bartee was injured.

As soon as Bartee returned from injury, he was inserted as the nickel back. Vermeil actually considered moving McCleon to nickel but said at the time that Dexter had played too well to warrant removing him.

[MrBlond]

Just an FYI, but the reason Woods played nickel was because Bartee was injured.

As soon as Bartee returned from injury, he was inserted as the nickel back. Vermeil actually considered moving McCleon to nickel but said at the time that Dexter had played too well to warrant removing him.


Why are you being so disigenerent today? :D

[Chief Roundup]

You are right we don't need any "overpriced FA" but we do need a couple of FA signings.

[|Zach|]

You are right we don't need any "overpriced FA" but we do need a couple of FA signings.

Like who and for what?

[Mark M]

Go back and watch some tape over the last couple of years.

Bartee is the best run-stopping CB we have. I sincerely mean that.

That's why he's probably best-suited for safety.

I've been saying for two years that they should move him to FS.

Of course, I'm not a real-life GM ...

I only play one on the Internet.

MM
~~:D

[Chief Roundup]

Like who and for what?
Like a CB to push Bartee off our roster. Like a DT to pushing Downing off our roster. Like a MLB in replace Mazlowski

[|Zach|]

Like a CB to push Bartee off our roster. Like a DT to pushing Downing off our roster. Like a MLB in replace Mazlowski

I think its really easy to say sign a few FA's but its hard to actully go out and good player's good enough to mkae us better without breaking the bank.

[KCTitus]

Like a CB to push Bartee off our roster. Like a DT to pushing Downing off our roster. Like a MLB in replace Mazlowski

Are there any FA MLB's available that would be an improvement over Maz or Mitchell? I certainly am not aware of any big names.

[Chief Roundup]

I think its really easy to say sign a few FA's but its hard to actully go out and good player's good enough to mkae us better without breaking the bank.
It is hard to do it without breaking the bank. I think we can get Vincent without breaking the bank. We could of had Robaire Smith without breaking the bank. I wanted Randall Godfrey and I don't think he would of broke the bank either. But those 3 moves probably would of tapped us out but our D would be a lot better for it.

[|Zach|]

It is hard to do it without breaking the bank. I think we can get Vincent without breaking the bank. We could of had Robaire Smith without breaking the bank. I wanted Randall Godfrey and I don't think he would of broke the bank either. But those 3 moves probably would of tapped us out but our D would be a lot better for it. We didn't know our situation with Tait. And how do you know Vincent's asking price? Do you have some line to the Chiefs that we don't know about?

I am not trying to argue just for argument's sake but I just don't understand why people throw out general comments like sign a few FA's like it is this easy simple thing. There is so much that goes into it. And just becuase it is a FA doesn't make it an automatic upgrade. I would have loved to have Vincent. But the guy is 32 and was prob really driving up the prices...

[Chief Roundup]

Are there any FA MLB's available that would be an improvement over Maz or Mitchell? I certainly am not aware of any big names.
Well to me Randall Godfrey who I originally wanted, Marvin Lewis, or Michael Barrow would all be an improvement. They are older guys but we have our future in Mitchell.
I don't have faith that Maz is going to be back to 100% after his second operation on his knee. I am afraid of the speed he might of lost especially considering he was never "fast" to begin with. Not to mention his durability.
Mitchell just looked way to lost for me last season to think that he is going to come in and be as good as one of these vets.

[htismaqe]

It is hard to do it without breaking the bank. I think we can get Vincent without breaking the bank. We could of had Robaire Smith without breaking the bank. I wanted Randall Godfrey and I don't think he would of broke the bank either. But those 3 moves probably would of tapped us out but our D would be a lot better for it.

Robaire Smith was not in our price range.

[Chief Roundup]

I am not trying to argue just for argument's sake but I just don't understand why people throw out general comments like sign a few FA's like it is this easy simple thing.

This is from your post #46
I think its really easy to say sign a few FA's

Don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that this is what they should of done but it is what I would of liked to of seen them do.
I understand to a point of having to wait and see what is going on with Tait but the Chiefs FO shouldn't let Tait dictate to us what we are going to try and do in the offseason.

[Chief Roundup]

Robaire Smith was not in our price range.
You are right he wasn't in our price range because fo the Tait situation.

[|Zach|]

Don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that this is what they should of done but it is what I would of liked to of seen them do.
I understand to a point of having to wait and see what is going on with Tait but the Chiefs FO shouldn't let Tait dictate to us what we are going to try and do in the offseason.

My point was its very easy to do the wrong way...we could throw all our cash at a few guys and fill them in easily.

If you want a bunch of little Hugh Douglas's where our young talent should be....

[Chief Roundup]

My point was its very easy to do the wrong way...we could throw all our cash at a few guys and fill them in easily.

If you want a bunch of little Hugh Douglas's where our young talent should be....
You are right it is very easy to go the wrong way.
I don't necessarily want a bunch of old guys either but money does dictate who and or what age category you can get into.
Since we are in our window for the SB we may have to use a couple of older guys since we can't wait for people to develope.

[Baby Lee]

No doubt QB pressure makes or breaks a CB. Thats why I hold out hope for Warfield. He has shown enough good plays to make me think that with pressure he would improve more.

But Bartee played worse than Warfield. Worse than McCleon. Hell, they played Woods in the nickle last year. All played better than Bartee. With the same pass rush. Expecting Bartee to make a quantum leap with a better pass rush (which is not given with the same 4 starting DLinemen) takes a leap of faith that I just don't have.

But like has been said the Bartee question is moot. If he comes back he will be the dime back. Behind McCleon, Warfield, Battle. And maybe a 2nd round pick. I just can't work up tears if we bring back such an irrelevent player.
I think we are talking past each other. I'm not saying pass rush will make Bartee a quantum leap better. I'm saying a pass rush will mask Bartee's flaws [looking over his shoulder for the ball, and maximize his strength [staying with his man]. Say what you will, but Bartee does a good job of staying with his man. That's why we notice when he gets burned. He's so close to his man, and just can't get his hands in the right place. I defy you to conjure instances of him losing his man completely that is on par with or below par with other CBs in the league. A half second on pass rush is the difference between the QB setting and launching an on target pass that makes Bartee look like a fool and the same QB seeing the coverage and deciding to check, thereby making Bartee a shutdown. That's a lot different from a CB who is actually out of position, so that the QB can set and launch OR launch out of desperation with equal confidence.
I don't see Bartee necessarily getting better. I see the things Bartee already does well paying off better. That's the difference.

[Logical]

I included his last year at Oklahoma. :D

I was ambivilant about Gun. I think he is a competent NFL DC. As was McGinnis and Jauron and Williams. I think, given some talent to work with, that he can field good defenses.

But returning the same 11 dregs that have sucked for 2 years doesnt give me much hope of seeing a dramatic improvement in our defense.

And, imo, Bartee is the dregiest dreg that dregged last year. As for Gun liking him, don't forget that Gun liked Kurt Schottenhiemer as his Defensive Coordinator.


Ding, ding, ding we have a winner. :thumb:

[|Zach|]

I am still right. THE SEAS WILL ONCE AGAIN RUN RED WITH THE BLOOD OF THE NON BELIEVERS!

[|Zach|]

Bump. I figure having some football talk wouldn't kill us. This is my pre draft predcition. All I changed was part of the thread title.

I stick to it damnit.

[listopencil]

Most of the board disagrees with you. Some have said you are an idiot homer...some say you don't know anything about football. Just so you're not dissapointed.

[|Zach|]

Most of the board disagrees with you. Some have said you are an idiot homer...some say you don't know anything about football. Just so you're not dissapointed.

:cuss: :p

[Manila-Chief]

I sure hope you are correct Zach ... wisdom says that we have a window of opportunity to win a S.B. this year. I believe we ought to do everything possible to open the window .... upgrading a couple of positions on the D would help us bust the window open.

Note: I said upgrade the position. New players need to be improve us not just be a cast off from another team. Siavii will be a slight upgrade and I say that because he is a rookie and still raw/learning his trade. I with you in hoping our 2nd. & 3rd. year guys will have progressed enough to become a real force. Past history doesn't offer much evidence of more than 1 (if we have 1) young guy takes a big step and we need several...

I remain disappointed that Kingless didn't make a real attempt at upgrading. He should have known the truth about Tait .... cut him loose early and at least had one of the DT or CB's in and made them an offer!!!

But, since he didn't then all we can do is hope that Zach is really the "MAN."

[|Zach|]

Zach is really the "MAN."
I am Zachary Cobb. And I support the message above.

[NaptownChief]

We don't need to do shit. We are dialed in to pull off another year in the string of three decades plus of non-championship seasons.

[jAZ]

Ok here it goes. Most of the board will disagree with me. Some will pass me off as an idiot homer...some will say I don't know anything about football and...
... the smart ones will say that you are right!

:thumb:

[Fairplay]

I disagree about our defense, it has to get a lot better...beating the Colts is one thing, beating the Patriots another

but I agree about FA, and I'm glad we haven't signed any of these overpriced FAs....the only reason I was excited about Vincent was that I thought he would be reasonably priced due to age...but it seems maybe he's looking for more

our CBs are good enough if we have a real pass rush..but our DL suks baloney and Gun has a lot of work to do, I wouldn't mind a flyer on Sapp if the price is right...we'll see, still pretty earlier to worry about next year



I agree with you Can. We shouldn't have renewed a couple of our guys contracts, we resigned them from last years starting D just to make a statement, also a couple FA's that can motivate and hold some of our guys accountable for missing tackles, coverages and busting their butts in games on the playing field would help greatly.

Yes our DL is very less then stellar. The Colts among other teams sliced through our defense like butter on bread. It was embarrasing.

[keg in kc]

we resigned them from last years starting D just to make a statementHow do you know that, and, if true, what statement would that be?also a couple FA's that can motivate and hold some of our guys accountable for missing tackles, coverages and busting their butts in games on the playing field would help greatly.One comment and one question. Comment: A year ago, we signed not just a couple, but three. Question: What FA's do you wish we had signed? Yes our DL is very less then stellar.It's also somewhat less than experienced. Or rather, it was. Last year at this time, we had a total of three veteran d-linemen on the roster. We now have those three, plus Dalton, plus Sims with a full season starting under his belt. The backups are all more experienced as well, with the exception of the rookie Siavii. In addition, they'll be used differently, both in terms of what they're asked to do on the field as well as how they're rotated. Will that make a difference? I don't know. Can that make a difference? Abso-freaking-lutely.

[ChiefJustice]

How do you know that, and, if true, what statement would that be?One comment and one question. Comment: A year ago, we signed not just a couple, but three. Question: What FA's do you wish we had signed? It's also somewhat less than experienced. Or rather, it was. Last year at this time, we had a total of three veteran d-linemen on the roster. We now have those three, plus Dalton, plus Sims with a full season starting under his belt. The backups are all more experienced as well, with the exception of the rookie Siavii. In addition, they'll be used differently, both in terms of what they're asked to do on the field as well as how they're rotated. Will that make a difference? I don't know. Can that make a difference? Abso-freaking-lutely.


You have to like this guy's takes on our team....spot on IMHO.


If only we could get him out of the house and away from his Star Wars games....

[keg in kc]

If only we could get him out of the house and away from his Star Wars games....I moved my fridge out into the hallway just so I could tell people that I do, in fact, leave the house. Sometimes.

[Abba-Dabba]

I moved my fridge out into the hallway just so I could tell people that I do, in fact, leave the house. Sometimes.

I don't know about you but every house I ever lived in the hallways were always on the inside.

[keg in kc]

I don't know about you but every house I ever lived in the hallways were always on the inside.I live in an apartment. I couldn't think of what to call the entryway outside, so I just called it a hallway. :p

[Abba-Dabba]

I live in an apartment. I couldn't think of what to call the entryway outside, so I just called it a hallway. :p

:redface:

ROFL

[Rausch]

Are there any FA MLB's available that would be an improvement over Maz or Mitchell? I certainly am not aware of any big names.

Jeremiah Trotter is available right now if we are willing to part with a draft pick, and later if we're willing to outbid everyone for him...

[nmt1]

Jeremiah Trotter is available right now if we are willing to part with a draft pick, and later if we're willing to outbid everyone for him...

If I was running the Chiefs, and I'm not, I'd avoid Trotter. We have several young players that need a chance to see the field. Bringing in Trotter would only prolong their development.

[Rausch]

If I was running the Chiefs, and I'm not, I'd avoid Trotter. We have several young players that need a chance to see the field. Bringing in Trotter would only prolong their development.

I think bringing in Trotter would mean the end of Maz's days as a Chief. I would tend to believe that Trotter would be the immediate starter and Kawika would be groomed under Gun to be the MLBOTF....

Kawika has the speed and athleticism to be every bit the LB Donnie Edwards was at MLB, but for whatever reason he just didn't improve or develop much last year. He looks like a boom-or-bust kind of guy....

[nmt1]

I think bringing in Trotter would mean the end of Maz's days as a Chief. I would tend to believe that Trotter would be the immediate starter and Kawika would be groomed under Gun to be the MLBOTF....

Kawika has the speed and athleticism to be every bit the LB Donnie Edwards was at MLB, but for whatever reason he just didn't improve or develop much last year. He looks like a boom-or-bust kind of guy....

I see your logic and I don't totally disagree. Trotter would be more expensive than Maz so that's one strike against him. Maz is also a Gunther guy so I'd guess Gunther would choose to stick with him over bringing in a new guy. Maz isn't a bad player. He was our best run stopper early last season. I wouldn't lose any sleep if they brought in Trotter and he ended up bumping Maz off the roster.

[htismaqe]

I think bringing in Trotter would mean the end of Maz's days as a Chief. I would tend to believe that Trotter would be the immediate starter and Kawika would be groomed under Gun to be the MLBOTF....

Kawika has the speed and athleticism to be every bit the LB Donnie Edwards was at MLB, but for whatever reason he just didn't improve or develop much last year. He looks like a boom-or-bust kind of guy....

Hey man, don't sell Mitchell short.

He's almost TWENTY POUNDS heavier than Donnie "Drag Me" Edwards...

[keg in kc]

Kawika has the speed and athleticism to be every bit the LB Donnie Edwards was at MLB, but for whatever reason he just didn't improve or develop much last year. He looks like a boom-or-bust kind of guy....Whatever reason = bad hamstrings. He wasn't ready to play. He's also (according to Vermeil) a violent, instinctual player, and he was asked to shelve all of that per the requirements of Robinson's read and react.

By the way, regarding improvement and development, Gunther himself said in a recent interview that it takes 4 years for him to develop a linebacker the way he likes. So maybe 1 half of 1 season isn't enough of a sample to judge Mitchell.

[Rausch]

Hey man, don't sell Mitchell short.

He's almost TWENTY POUNDS heavier than Donnie "Drag Me" Edwards...

And has yet to make 1/4 the tackles Donnie made for us.

Here, name one play that highlighted his athletic ability....

[KCTitus]

Wasnt Trotter franchised this time last year by Philly only to have Philly lift the franchise tag, and then Washington signed him and now he's been released?

There's something wrong here...

[Gaz]

Whatever reason = bad hamstrings...
He has been declared a bust by ChiefsPlanet and we don’t want to hear any excuses about injured hamstrings or Robinson’s scheme or a rookie thrown to the wolves.

He’s a bust and Carl is an idiot.

xoxo~
Gaz
Just another pitchfork-wielding member of the mob.

[J Diddy]

Wasnt Trotter franchised this time last year by Philly only to have Philly lift the franchise tag, and then Washington signed him and now he's been released?

There's something wrong here...

Snyder's playing madden with this thing. The salary cap is too easy so
he's got to add some cap hits to keep it interesting.

[keg in kc]

He has been declared a bust by ChiefsPlanet and we don’t want to hear any excuses about injured hamstrings or Robinson’s scheme or a rookie thrown to the wolves.

He’s a bust and Carl is an idiot.

xoxo~
Gaz
Just another pitchfork-wielding member of the mob.
I apologize. I forgot myself. Thank you, sir. May I have another?

[htismaqe]

And has yet to make 1/4 the tackles Donnie made for us.

Here, name one play that highlighted his athletic ability....

You were talking about POTENTIAL, right?

This sentence would seem to suggest as much:

Kawika has the speed and athleticism to be every bit the LB Donnie Edwards was at MLB

So yes, Kawika has yet to make 1/4 of the tackles Donnie made. Donnie was also a 4-year starter. I responded to a post about potential. You responded to my post with a statement about results. Two entirely different things.

He has the size and speed. But he also weighs 240 pounds, which gives him the potential to be BETTER than Edwards ever was...

[Logical]

They don't have to be that much better for this team to get to the place it wants to be. They didn't win the superbowl last year but I believe the Colts were just as good as any team in the NFL. During the game we only needed the Colts to punt once.

Total homer myth now legend in stature. The fact is that Colts would have and could have scored two more touchdowns if needed. They settled for running out the clock when they could have just skipped on down the field had they desired. This idea that we were one stop away is ignoring how the game actually went.

[Logical]

Are there any FA MLB's available that would be an improvement over Maz or Mitchell? I certainly am not aware of any big names.

We won't sign him but Trotter certainly fills that bill.

[keg in kc]

This idea that we were one stop away is ignoring how the game actually went.Of course it is. That's the whole point of the "one stop" argument. We didn't make the one stop so any discussion of it is by nature speculation.

And call it homerism all you like, but the difference in the two teams that day was small. It was two unstoppable offenses against two hapless defenses. The difference was that we gave Indy two breaks, with halftime sandwiched in between. First Mort missed a chipshot, then Priest fumbled at the Indy 22 after a 40+ yard run. That's essentially 10 points off the board, and what should have been a 21-20 game early in the 3rd quarter, with momentum clearly in our corner. Forget the dropped passes and forget the defense. Those two plays were ultimately the difference in the game.

Indy, on the other hand, was flawless, and because of that they won. That's the way it goes. You can't make mistakes and expect to win, especially not in January.

[KCTitus]

We won't sign him but Trotter certainly fills that bill.

Given his recent history, I dont necessarily see that as a bad thing...I have to wonder what the deal is. Franchised by Philly, within months they drop the tag and he signs with Washington only to be released the following year.

[Coogs]

Kawika has the speed and athleticism to be every bit the LB Donnie Edwards was at MLB, but for whatever reason he just didn't improve or develop much last year. He looks like a boom-or-bust kind of guy....

I think we all saw Mitchell do some things that made us all wonder what the heck he was doing. We also know that Sims and Hicks had it out after the Vikings game because Sims wasn't "doing what he was supposed to do". And yes, that was the next to the last game of the regular season, but we don't know how long this sort of thing had been going on before it came to a head in Minnesota.

It very well could have been going on for quite some time that players were being instructed to "just do what your are told" no matter how wrong that assignment may have appeared to us on TV. If Mitchell had a responsibility to get to a gap, maybe he was just following orders out of fear of getting in trouble from coaches and teammates. Nevermind that the play went through the spot Mitchell was just in, he was maybe just doing his job. Remember, Sims is the only one who was singled out as being out of position.

[KCTitus]

Most players have said that after the Minny game Robinson changed up stuff so frequently that there was mass confusion. Throw rookie inexperience in that mix and that's gas on fire.

[Coogs]

Most players have said that after the Minny game Robinson changed up stuff so frequently that there was mass confusion. Throw rookie inexperience in that mix and that's gas on fire.

Yep!

[htismaqe]

Given his recent history, I dont necessarily see that as a bad thing...I have to wonder what the deal is. Franchised by Philly, within months they drop the tag and he signs with Washington only to be released the following year.

Michael Barrow (born 04/19/1970) beat him out for the MLB spot in Washington. THAT is what the deal is...

[MrBlond]

Personally, I'm not worried about our LBs or our DTs. I think all of ours, starters and backups, are either good or have the potential to be better.

CBs and DEs are another matter, imo. I think that with the exception of Battle and Wilkerson (who are both on the bottom of the depth charts) are as good as they are ever going to get.

Overpriced FAs? I don't have any problem not bringing in some.

Same exact cast with a new director? I'm a little concerned.

[keg in kc]

CBs and DEs are another matter, imo. I think that with the exception of Battle and Wilkerson (who are both on the bottom of the depth charts) are as good as they are ever going to get.I have the same concern, although more at corner than end. I still can't comprehend the level of leniency shown towards Bartee, who has shown absolutely nothing in four years as a pro. I thought Vincent would have been a nice fit as a short term addition, but I also thought he used us and maybe we were never really in the running. I guess the best hope is that Battle has developed enough to play the nickel, because, for me at least, the book on Bartee is closed. McCleon concerns me, as well. In the perfect world, we'd have found a starter in free agency which would enable us to relegate him to the nickel.

[htismaqe]

I have the same concern, although more at corner than end. I still can't comprehend the level of leniency shown towards Bartee, who has shown absolutely nothing in four years as a pro. I thought Vincent would have been a nice fit as a short term addition, but I also thought he used us and maybe we were never really in the running. I guess the best hope is that Battle has developed enough to play the nickel, because, for me at least, the book on Bartee is closed. McCleon concerns me, as well. In the perfect world, we'd have found a starter in free agency which would enable us to relegate him to the nickel.

That pretty much sums up my feelings as well.

[Manila-Chief]

Given his recent history, I dont necessarily see that as a bad thing...I have to wonder what the deal is. Franchised by Philly, within months they drop the tag and he signs with Washington only to be released the following year.

Raises plenty of questions to me. And if he got beat out of his position then that raises another question ... how good is he????

[J Diddy]

Raises plenty of questions to me. And if he got beat out of his position then that raises another question ... how good is he????

which raises another question, in comparison how good are our linebackers.

[Manila-Chief]

Agree! but how do we do that in this forum? I was all for him coz we need an upgrade but the fact he got cut raises serious questions. So, if CP doesn't bring him in I'll understand!!!!

[J Diddy]

Agree! but how do we do that in this forum? I was all for him coz we need an upgrade but the fact he got cut raises serious questions. So, if CP doesn't bring him in I'll understand!!!!

I have it. I'll play a season of madden with him on our roster and a season without. Then we shall know.

[philfree]

Given his recent history, I dont necessarily see that as a bad thing...I have to wonder what the deal is. Franchised by Philly, within months they drop the tag and he signs with Washington only to be released the following year.

He's a cap casulaty. No big thing IMO. As far as Barrow beating him out I think Barrow was just signed by the Skins this offseason. We prolly won't make a move for Trotter but you never know.

PhilFree :arrow:

[Rausch]

Given his recent history, I dont necessarily see that as a bad thing...I have to wonder what the deal is. Franchised by Philly, within months they drop the tag and he signs with Washington only to be released the following year.

Trotter is a Terrel Owens. He's got the same level of talent and the same type of attitude.

Andy Reid doesn't put up with that. And I think Reid was pressured to make a move at WR and that's why Owens was signed.

I don't think he'll finish the season as a starter in Philli. Reid is a hardass and just doesn't put up with attitude or character issues. I'm convinced the Owens signing was forced upon him...

[|Zach|]

Bump

Well this was my post from March looks like im pretty hit and miss. My hope for Battle is fading...but I don't think I did to bad of job. It would be a good one if Kawika wasn't hurt.

[38yrsfan]

The KC D has some great talent that needs to be directed to their potential for best results and native abilities. The way they are utilized can be more effective if aligned to a scheme that better suits the temperment of the players. This would be similar to the Bronco "system" on offense that allows them to take unheralded running backs and turn them into rushing leaders. If you have made it to the pros, it should be recognized that there is some ability there that is considered to be above the average.

Considering the 29th place previously, improvement is almost a given, however, significant improvement is what is required to be a dominating team let alone an SB winner/particiapant. The current situation is all the more depressing as KC has been known to be a team that was dominant on defense. Even in the many losing seasons, it was heartenong to see a defense that was out for blood, even while losing. The team has had more than its share of adversity with players dieing in the off-season; Derrick Thomas, Joe Delaney, etc. Let's see some parity in that area, at least Ricky Williams is still alive and kicking, lol ... just some sick humor, give me your indulgence.

[Coogs]

I pulled this from yesterdays DV Q&A at kcchiefs.com...

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Why did you make so few changes on the defense and how do you see it now?

DICK VERMEIL: “Because I thought the defense was young, I thought I could recognize some of the problems, and I felt we were getting better.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I totally agree with DV, and stated as such last spring as well. Many have indicated we have a 1 or 2 year window to get the Super Bowl trophy. I disagree. I think the balance of power will switch from the offensive side of the ball to the defensive side of the ball in a couple of years though. I think the foundation for a top 5 defense is taking shape, and will replace our top 5 offense. Our top 5 offense will probably start to slide in a year or two. But look at the Ravens. A kick azz defense and no offense will keep you in the hunt, just as we have been in the hunt with the reverse situation for the last two years.