*** Official Kansas City Royals @ San Francisco Giants World Series Game 4 Thread ***

[alnorth]

Final	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	R	H	E
KC	0	0	4	0	0	0	0	0	0	4	12	1
SF	1	0	1	0	2	3	4	0	X	11	16	0

Series Tied, 2-2



Jason Vargas 4IP 3R 3ER 2BB 3K
Jason Frasor ⅓IP 1R 1ER 0BB 0K
Danny Duffy ⅔IP 0R 0ER 1BB 1K
Loss Brandon Finnegan 1IP 5R 5ER 2BB 0K
Tim Collins 2IP 2R 2ER 1BB 2K

VS.



Ryan Vogelsong 2⅔IP 4R 4ER 1BB 2K
Jean Machi ⅓IP 0R 0ER 1BB 1K
Win Yusmeiro Petit 3IP 0R 0ER 0BB 2K
Hold Jeremy Affeldt 1IP 0R 0ER 0BB 1K
Sergio Romo 1IP 0R 0ER 0BB 1K
Hunter Strickland 1IP 0R 0ER 0BB 1K

Home Runs

none

Starting Lineups

KC

1. Alcides Escobar, SS
2. Alex Gordon, LF
3. Lorenzo Cain, RF
4. Eric Hosmer, 1B
5. Mike Moustakas, 3B
5. Tim Collins, P
6. Omar Infante, 2B
7. Salvador Perez, C
8. Jarrod Dyson, CF
9. Jason Vargas, P
9. Jason Frasor, P
9. Danny Duffy, P
9. Norichika Aoki, ph
9. Brandon Finnegan, P
9. Jayson Nix, 3B

SF

1. Gregor Blanco, CF
2. Joe Panik, 2B
3. Buster Posey, C
4. Hunter Pence, RF
5. Pablo Sandoval, 3B
6. Brandon Belt, 1B
7. Juan Perez, LF
8. Brandon Crawford, SS
9. Ryan Vogelsong, P
9. Jean Machi, P
9. Matt Duffy, ph
9. Yusmeiro Petit, P
9. Jeremy Affeldt, P
9. Michael Morse, ph
9. Sergio Romo, P
9. Travis Ishikawa, ph
9. Hunter Strickland, P

[alnorth]

Here's an example to illustrate what people are saying is momentum.

You are a hitter leading off in the 7th inning, and you are tied 4-4. You were winning by 4-1, but you just lost the lead in the 6th, and now you need to get the lead back.

Meanwhile, in a parallel universe you are the exact same player in the exact same situation in the exact same game facing the exact same pitcher (who just came into the game in both universes), but in this universe you were losing 4-1 in the 6th inning and you tied it up in the 6th. Now its the 7th and time to grab the lead.

Believers in momentum would argue that the 2nd player would do better than the first player.

[Prison Bitch]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

But baseball is the most chaotic of the major sports. Look at the ball Pence hit to drive in the third run. If he puts his bat through the zone about five milliseconds sooner he hits it right at Escobar and that threat is over with the game being no worse than 4-3.

If Morse hits that ball five milliseconds later yesterday, the Giants probably win that game. You can't attribute events with such strong variance to momentum.

It helps us provide order to things that often defy description, but it's also not supportable by looking at the evidence.

I don't follow. If Morse hits it out we still lead 3-2. Morse doubled in the run and subsequently scored. Not sure on your logic

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch

I don't follow. If Morse hits it out we still lead 3-2. Morse doubled in the run and subsequently scored. Not sure on your logic

You're right. For some reason I remembered him hitting later in the game and it being closer.

[ROYC75]

Originally Posted by Mavericks Ace

Its true. Its very true. The Giants have to get on him early. Even though the Royals didn't win game one, they hit madbum very hard in game one.

Shrugs.

Yep, had him on the ropes a couple of times and they got off.

[ROYC75]

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch

If momentum existed, we'd have won game 1. Or SF would've won games 2&3. Or us tonight. Wait. This is confusing

But so true.

[Kidd Lex]

Originally Posted by alnorth

Again, I'm not talking about butterfly effect or time travel types of scenarios when you can look back, and point out that an event had an impact on later decisions in the game, that likely would have resulted in a different outcome had the event not happened.

I'm talking about this belief that you suddenly can do no wrong or that you "just know" you are now going to lose.

Stop moving the goal posts, you clearly compared momentum to voodoo magic, and were condescending to those that suggested otherwise in the process. There is no doubt you know baseball, and generally I enjoy reading your posts and interacting with you. But it's ok to disagree, and for people to come to different conclusions, right or wrong.

I was definitely referring to a very real thing called psychological momentum, that you can see in players body language, and often their performance. Bill James disagrees, but Bill James knows numbers, not pressure situations on the mound or in the batters box.

Here's an excerpt from someone far more intelligent than I at least defining the topic at hand, "We know it as the "Big Mo", the "Hot Hand", and being "In The Zone" while the psychologists call it Psychological Momentum. But, does it really exist? Is it just a temporary shift in confidence and mood or does it actually change the outcome..."

As Jeff Greenwald put it in his article, Riding the Wave of Momentum, "The reason momentum is so powerful is because of the heightened sense of confidence it gives us -- the most important aspect of peak performance. There is a term in sport psychology known as self-efficacy, which is simply a player's belief in his/her ability to perform a specific task or shot. Typically, a player’s success depends on this efficacy. During a momentum shift, self-efficacy is very high and players have immediate proof their ability matches the challenge. As stated earlier, they then experience subsequent increases in energy and motivation, and gain a feeling of control. In addition, during a positive momentum shift, a player’s self-image also changes. He/she feels invincible and this takes the "performer self" to a higher level."

http://www.science20.com/sports_are_...m_sports-33165

[O.city]

You're talking about confidence. Not momentum

[Molitoth]

Originally Posted by O.city

You're talking about confidence. Not momentum

In sports, I think these kind of work hand-in-hand.

But in the end this is all just based around personal opinions because it cannot be proven as fact.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Originally Posted by Mavericks Ace

uh, no?

Two evenly matched teams fighting for a title. This is how legends are made.
If the Royals win, they will be remembered for ever as being a team to beat the "big boys.'

If the Giants win they are a modern dynasty.

its epic.

Good lord. I looked at the final score and said to myself, "did they bring Alex Smith in"?

[alnorth]

Originally Posted by The God Hypothesis

Stop moving the goal posts, you clearly compared momentum to voodoo magic, and were condescending to those that suggested otherwise in the process. There is no doubt you know baseball, and generally I enjoy reading your posts and interacting with you. But it's ok to disagree, and for people to come to different conclusions, right or wrong.

I was definitely referring to a very real thing called psychological momentum, that you can see in players body language, and often their performance. Bill James disagrees, but Bill James knows numbers, not pressure situations on the mound or in the batters box.

Here's an excerpt from someone far more intelligent than I at least defining the topic at hand, "We know it as the "Big Mo", the "Hot Hand", and being "In The Zone" while the psychologists call it Psychological Momentum. But, does it really exist? Is it just a temporary shift in confidence and mood or does it actually change the outcome..."

As Jeff Greenwald put it in his article, Riding the Wave of Momentum, "The reason momentum is so powerful is because of the heightened sense of confidence it gives us -- the most important aspect of peak performance. There is a term in sport psychology known as self-efficacy, which is simply a player's belief in his/her ability to perform a specific task or shot. Typically, a player’s success depends on this efficacy. During a momentum shift, self-efficacy is very high and players have immediate proof their ability matches the challenge. As stated earlier, they then experience subsequent increases in energy and motivation, and gain a feeling of control. In addition, during a positive momentum shift, a player’s self-image also changes. He/she feels invincible and this takes the "performer self" to a higher level."

http://www.science20.com/sports_are_...m_sports-33165

I wasn't moving the goalposts, I'm not sure if you understood what I meant in that quote. People were pointing out events that had a strategic impact on the game, as in, since this happened the manager had to do that.

Anyway, the impact that what you are talking about has, especially in the world series, is so small that it may as well not exist.

[alnorth]

Originally Posted by O.city

You're talking about confidence. Not momentum

No, this is pretty close to what I was talking about. These are not mentally fragile children who wilt when something bad happens, at the MLB level these are seasoned pros who have spent a lifetime keeping cool, blocking the world out, and playing their game. Whatever you may have felt or was thinking about a minute ago, at the moment of performance all of that stuff leaves your head and all you see is the ball or the glove.

[Kidd Lex]

The idea of momentum in sports is an incredibly interesting one, and certainly won't be solved on a message board so I'll step away from the keyboard and move on to the task at hand, beating the Giants in game 5 today.

To get some Royals mojo going, I'll start by throwing on my lucky Royals cap. We have a flawless record when I've worn it in the postseason, and that Al is some voodoo magic I can believe in.

[Mav]

Originally Posted by 505 Chief

Good lord. I looked at the final score and said to myself, "did they bring Alex Smith in"?

:cool:

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Originally Posted by Mavericks Ace

:cool:

I meant to say, "did they bring in Alex Smith to do something of importance"?