Royals What if Denkinger hadn't blown the call? Looks to me like Royals still win.

**wazu** · 06-17-2008, 09:26 PM

In honor of the series underway, I thought I would go back and see if I could step through "what might have been" for the good old Royals/Cards series of '85.

According to the records I have found, the Royals only recorded one out in the ninth since it was a home game and a walk-off win. Orta, the batter in question, was the out at third, and therefore didn't even score. So, assuming Orta had been called out at first instead of later at third, the following would have logically happened:

1. Orta is thrown out at first (1 out) - NOTE: This is the infamous blown call being un-blown.
2. Balboni singles (Runner at 1st, 1 out) - Conception in to pinch run.
3. Sundberg bunts, thrown out (Conception at 2nd, 2 out)
4. For the purposes of this, I will assume that the fielding problem for the Cards which advanced runners did not happen.
5. Hal McRae walks. (McRae on 1st, Concepcion on 2nd, 2 out)
6. Dane Lorg singles, Concepcion scores. (GAME TIED, runners on 1st and 2nd, 2 out)

After that - who knows? We have a runner in scoring position, and at the very least the game is going to extra innings with all of the momentum on the side of the Royals.

Granted, things probably wouldn't have gone down exactly like I have listed above since chaos theory dictates that the turn of events probably would have been different. Who knows what would have happened with McRae? It's reasonable to think they would have pitched to him and might have gotten an out, but it's definitely not a sure thing. It's also reasonable to say that Sundberg might have gotten a regular single instead of a fielder's choice bunt, which would have undid the net effect of a lead-off out by Orta to begin with.

The bottom line is that the Cards very clearly choked away the win in the bottom of the ninth.

For comparison, below is what actually happened according to Wikipedia:

Game 6
Saturday, October 26, 1985 at Royals Stadium in Kansas City, Missouri

Team 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 R H E
St. Louis 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 5 0
Kansas City 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 2 10 0

WP: Dan Quisenberry (1-0) LP: Todd Worrell (0-1)

A pitcher's duel unfolded between Danny Cox and Charlie Leibrandt, the tough-luck loser in Game Two. They traded goose eggs until the eighth, when Brian Harper singled home Terry Pendleton to give the Cardinals the lead and inside track for the title. But the bottom of the ninth featured controversy and a collapse by the Cardinals.

Whitey Herzog called on rookie reliever Todd Worrell to pitch the ninth. The first batter, Jorge Orta, sent a routine bouncer to Jack Clark. He tossed to Worrell and got Orta for the seeming first out, but umpire Don Denkinger erroneously called Orta safe. Every replay angle indicated that Orta was out. Instead of one out, the Royals now had one on and slugger Steve Balboni at the plate. Balboni lifted a routine pop-up in foul territory along the first base dugout. Darrell Porter claimed he had it and then didn't, and the ball fell harmlessly behind Jack Clark. Given a reprieve, Balboni singled, putting runners at first and second with nobody out. Sent to bunt the runners over, Jim Sundberg's bunt was fielded perfectly by Worrell, and he threw out Orta at third.

But the rally stopper was undone when Porter's passed ball allowed the runners to move up and forced Herzog to walk Royals pinch-hitter Hal McRae. With the bases loaded and one out, pinch-hitter Dane Iorg looped a single to right field. Pinch runner Onix Concepcion scored the tying run and Sundberg approached the plate with the winning run. Andy Van Slyke's throw was on the money, but Porter made a short attempt to tag Sundberg, who slid home safely with the game-winning run.

After the game, Iorg got his nose broken when his teammates, led by 230 pound (104 kg) pitcher Mike Jones, mobbed him after his game winning hit.

DJJasonp · 06-17-2008, 09:27 PM

Cardinal fans dont read.....so this is a waste of time...

But I agree with you.....

It will be the year 2050 and Cardinal fans will still be bitchin' about 1985

VonneMarie · 06-17-2008, 09:28 PM

SUCK IT, ST.LOSER!

SPchief · 06-17-2008, 09:30 PM

This thread will turn out well

**BigRedChief** · 06-17-2008, 09:31 PM

**Dartgod** · 06-17-2008, 09:32 PM

This has been played out waaaay too many times.

KCUnited · 06-17-2008, 09:32 PM

Where is the smiley sitting in the recliner eating popcorn?

VonneMarie · 06-17-2008, 09:33 PM

St.Louis has cooties.

**BigRedChief** · 06-17-2008, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonneMarie

St.Louis has cooties.

And 10 of these.

VonneMarie · 06-17-2008, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

And 10 of these.

That's really original... not! We still beat you and that's all that matters to me.

VonneMarie · 06-17-2008, 09:39 PM

St.Louis sucks and I'm going to bed. SUCK IT!

**BigRedChief** · 06-17-2008, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonneMarie

That's really original... not! We still beat you and that's all that matters to me.

Thats cool. Enjoy the one championship. The Royals earned it. We got over it. Maybe you should too?

**wazu** · 06-17-2008, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Thats cool. Enjoy the one championship. The Royals earned it. We got over it. Maybe you should too?

Maybe you have, but most Card fans I talk to are still bitter. I hear about Denkinger every time '85 comes up. It would make more sense if it was the key play in the series, but in fact it was nearly irrelevant in terms of impact on the game, and has been magnified over the years to a point that it is given significant discussion every time the I-70 series comes up.

That's cool. If we are going to keep hearing about it, just thought I'd take the time to discuss the facts of the case.

little jacob · 06-17-2008, 10:09 PM

even taking away the call, and the fielding error, it comes down to Conception scoring from second on a base hit which seems as likely as not

but you can't really play it out that way, the runners could have moved, something could have happened. and you wouldn't pitch the game exactly the same way with runners in different places would you?

little jacob · 06-17-2008, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Thats cool. Enjoy the one championship. The Royals earned it. We got over it. Maybe you should too?

i dont know any cards fans who were over it until they won another one. which is braggable, but... 22 years of sandy isn't much better than 25 or so.

06-17-2008, 09:26 PM
wazu ... Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kansas City, MO Casino cash: $1832295 VARSITY	What if Denkinger hadn't blown the call? Looks to me like Royals still win. In honor of the series underway, I thought I would go back and see if I could step through "what might have been" for the good old Royals/Cards series of '85. According to the records I have found, the Royals only recorded one out in the ninth since it was a home game and a walk-off win. Orta, the batter in question, was the out at third, and therefore didn't even score. So, assuming Orta had been called out at first instead of later at third, the following would have logically happened: 1. Orta is thrown out at first (1 out) - NOTE: This is the infamous blown call being un-blown. 2. Balboni singles (Runner at 1st, 1 out) - Conception in to pinch run. 3. Sundberg bunts, thrown out (Conception at 2nd, 2 out) 4. For the purposes of this, I will assume that the fielding problem for the Cards which advanced runners did not happen. 5. Hal McRae walks. (McRae on 1st, Concepcion on 2nd, 2 out) 6. Dane Lorg singles, Concepcion scores. (GAME TIED, runners on 1st and 2nd, 2 out) After that - who knows? We have a runner in scoring position, and at the very least the game is going to extra innings with all of the momentum on the side of the Royals. Granted, things probably wouldn't have gone down exactly like I have listed above since chaos theory dictates that the turn of events probably would have been different. Who knows what would have happened with McRae? It's reasonable to think they would have pitched to him and might have gotten an out, but it's definitely not a sure thing. It's also reasonable to say that Sundberg might have gotten a regular single instead of a fielder's choice bunt, which would have undid the net effect of a lead-off out by Orta to begin with. The bottom line is that the Cards very clearly choked away the win in the bottom of the ninth. For comparison, below is what actually happened according to Wikipedia: Game 6 Saturday, October 26, 1985 at Royals Stadium in Kansas City, Missouri Team 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 R H E St. Louis 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 5 0 Kansas City 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 2 10 0 WP: Dan Quisenberry (1-0) LP: Todd Worrell (0-1) A pitcher's duel unfolded between Danny Cox and Charlie Leibrandt, the tough-luck loser in Game Two. They traded goose eggs until the eighth, when Brian Harper singled home Terry Pendleton to give the Cardinals the lead and inside track for the title. But the bottom of the ninth featured controversy and a collapse by the Cardinals. Whitey Herzog called on rookie reliever Todd Worrell to pitch the ninth. The first batter, Jorge Orta, sent a routine bouncer to Jack Clark. He tossed to Worrell and got Orta for the seeming first out, but umpire Don Denkinger erroneously called Orta safe. Every replay angle indicated that Orta was out. Instead of one out, the Royals now had one on and slugger Steve Balboni at the plate. Balboni lifted a routine pop-up in foul territory along the first base dugout. Darrell Porter claimed he had it and then didn't, and the ball fell harmlessly behind Jack Clark. Given a reprieve, Balboni singled, putting runners at first and second with nobody out. Sent to bunt the runners over, Jim Sundberg's bunt was fielded perfectly by Worrell, and he threw out Orta at third. But the rally stopper was undone when Porter's passed ball allowed the runners to move up and forced Herzog to walk Royals pinch-hitter Hal McRae. With the bases loaded and one out, pinch-hitter Dane Iorg looped a single to right field. Pinch runner Onix Concepcion scored the tying run and Sundberg approached the plate with the winning run. Andy Van Slyke's throw was on the money, but Porter made a short attempt to tag Sundberg, who slid home safely with the game-winning run. After the game, Iorg got his nose broken when his teammates, led by 230 pound (104 kg) pitcher Mike Jones, mobbed him after his game winning hit.
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06-17-2008, 09:27 PM	#2
DJJasonp My work speaks for itself!!! Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: So Cal Casino cash: $1615200	Cardinal fans dont read.....so this is a waste of time... But I agree with you..... It will be the year 2050 and Cardinal fans will still be bitchin' about 1985 __________________ Its easier to fool a man, than to convince a man he's been fooled.
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06-17-2008, 09:28 PM	#3
VonneMarie Don't look over here Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Kansas City, MO Casino cash: $10008987	SUCK IT, ST.LOSER!
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06-17-2008, 09:30 PM	#4
SPchief In Search of a Life Join Date: Feb 2004 Casino cash: $1542905	This thread will turn out well __________________ http://give.somo.org/site/TR/Plunge/...nal&fr_id=1244 ^^^^^^^^^^ Click here to help with a special cause. Please help me out
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06-17-2008, 09:31 PM	#5
BigRedChief Has a particular set of skills Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: On the water Casino cash: $2769627 VARSITY	__________________ Time is worth more than money.
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06-17-2008, 09:32 PM	#6
Dartgod Wasted away again... Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: in Margaritaville Casino cash: $7050000	This has been played out waaaay too many times. __________________ If you shed a tear for me, please make it a tear of joy. -Joe Tracy (Nzoner) . .
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06-17-2008, 09:32 PM	#7
KCUnited Cheat Death Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Land of Drincoln Casino cash: $1918244	Where is the smiley sitting in the recliner eating popcorn?
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06-17-2008, 09:33 PM	#8
VonneMarie Don't look over here Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Kansas City, MO Casino cash: $10008987	St.Louis has cooties.
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06-17-2008, 09:39 PM	#11
VonneMarie Don't look over here Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Kansas City, MO Casino cash: $10008987	St.Louis sucks and I'm going to bed. SUCK IT!
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06-17-2008, 10:09 PM	#14
little jacob Bitter Clinger Join Date: May 2008 Casino cash: $10004900	even taking away the call, and the fielding error, it comes down to Conception scoring from second on a base hit which seems as likely as not but you can't really play it out that way, the runners could have moved, something could have happened. and you wouldn't pitch the game exactly the same way with runners in different places would you?
Posts: 1,214