Flanagan: Toomer's TD in question

tk13 · 12-21-2005, 02:28 AM

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...s/13452684.htm

It’s not the knee, or the elbow, that makes you down
JEFFREY FLANAGAN
Kansas City Star

The Chiefs didn’t win or lose Saturday’s game because of one play or one call.

But perhaps the most interesting and confusing play of the day was the Amani Toomer touchdown in the fourth quarter that put the Giants up 20-10. The ruling on the field — that Toomer was not down by contact — was challenged by the Chiefs. After the review, the ruling on the field stood.

But did the referee blow the call, even after seeing all the replays?
CBS play-by-play announcer Jim Nantz originally asked after seeing the very first replay, “Was the knee down?”

Nantz’s partner, Phil Simms, quickly corrected Nantz and said: “It doesn’t have to be the knee. If any part of the leg hits the ground (the runner is down).”

Simms was 100 percent right.

Most of us who follow football are taught early on that it is the knee or the elbow (or any part between) touching the ground that declares a runner down.

But according to Steve Alic, AFC information director for the NFL, a runner is down after contact by a defender when “any part of the body except for the hands or feet” hits the ground. That comes from Rule 7, Section 4, Article 1 of the NFL Rule Book.

Simms was right from the start.

And after some more replays were shown, Nantz then conceded to Simms, “The shin was definitely down.”

Then Toomer was down by contact, right?

But Simms backed off a bit as more replay angles were shown. Nantz hedged. Then the referee came back from the hooded monitor and said, “The play stands as called, touchdown.”

Hmmm.

Quite often, officials offer detailed explanations after a challenge. Did the shin touch the ground? (Is that even anatomically possible?) Was the evidence inconclusive? Referee William Carollo chose not to tell us anything.

And strangely, no pool reporter was sent to the officials’ locker room afterward to get an explanation — 400 New York reporters, and not one was curious enough to ask?

Without an explanation from Carollo, the league has an easy out now. It can simply say the evidence was inconclusive, or that it was not strong enough to overturn the ruling on the field.

As for the Chiefs, each week, teams send in taped plays they hope the league will examine and review. The Chiefs won’t say whether the Toomer play is on their hit list.

Shouldn’t it be?

***

Guess who was at the Monday night football game in Baltimore? None other than Jerry Falwell.

Falwell, the founder of the Moral Majority and the president of Liberty University, was there to see one of his alums — Packers running back Samkon Gado, who was with the Chiefs earlier this year.

Liberty, in Lynchburg, Va., is about a four-hour drive from Baltimore.
Gado has become a fascinating story in the NFL, mainly because he was just a third-string running back while at Liberty.

“We have 98,000 alumni, and not one represents a university better than Samkon Gado,” Falwell told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. “He’s a very committed Christian whose goal in life is to be a doctor. I think it still is, but he’ll probably play longer than he ever thought.”

Falwell told the newspaper that given Gado’s talent, he should have been utilized more in college.

“The coach made a mistake,” Falwell said. “The bottom line is that the other two guys were good enough and Samkon was humble enough that it was easy to get lost.”

Asked whether the reason he recently fired coach Ken Karcher, who recruited Gado, was because of his failure to get Gado on the field, Falwell said, “I don’t want to comment on that.”

***

Anyone remember Derrick Blaylock?

Blaylock, the former Chief, apparently will play for the Jets this Monday night, the first time since breaking his foot in a week-five game against Buffalo.

Blaylock, who spent his first four seasons with the Chiefs, was signed to be Curtis Martin’s successor with the Jets.

listopencil · 12-21-2005, 02:47 AM

My wife and I were watching that together. We both thought he was down.

Hammock Parties · 12-21-2005, 02:50 AM

Shockey was short of a first down on NY's first TD drive. Dick didn't even bother challenging the horrible spot.

Demonpenz · 12-21-2005, 02:58 AM

you know the way we were tackling they would have just gotten in the next play

Mecca · 12-21-2005, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gochiefs

Shockey was short of a first down on NY's first TD drive. Dick didn't even bother challenging the horrible spot.

I'm not sure it would have even mattered. If they can look at that Toomer play and say it stands, who's to say they wouldn't just say the spot was right and move on?

philfree · 12-21-2005, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gochiefs

Shockey was short of a first down on NY's first TD drive. Dick didn't even bother challenging the horrible spot.

Yeah we should have challenged the spot but something tells me that our coaches never got to see a replay. I've seen the same thing happen at Arrowhead though where we never show the replay on the big screen. Of course the official blew the spot regardless. Probably the same guy who tried to give the Donks the first down. I'm sure all fans are just like me but IMO we get screwed on a regular basis. I wonder if Gun flipping them off the week before had anything to do with some of the calls/non calls that were made during the Giants game. Nawwww the officials would never do anything like that

PhilFree

**Rausch** · 12-21-2005, 03:07 AM

If you put yourself in the position that one bad call can kill you, it will.

Every time...

CHIEF4EVER · 12-21-2005, 03:14 AM

So the Giants DIDN'T have to wipe an illegal substance off their jerseys? Oh, wait a minute.....wrong team, my bad.

PunkinDrublic · 12-21-2005, 03:15 AM

If Knight had held on and Bell would have got to him instead of making that pansy assed attempt of a tackle we wouldn't have to worry about whether or not Toomers knee was down. Having to watch that replay over and over again was pure torture.

philfree · 12-21-2005, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

If you put yourself in the position that one bad call can kill you, it will.

Every time...

One? There were several bad calls in that game. From Parkers taunting call to the false start call where the D lineman of the Giants clearly entered the neutral zone causing our guy to move. Warfield was held on a touchdown run when Barber was 15 yards away and he was held the whole time Barber was running those 15 yards. I could go on but.....

PhilFree

tk13 · 12-21-2005, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PunkinDrublic

If Knight had held on and Bell would have got to him instead of making that pansy assed attempt of a tackle we wouldn't have to worry about whether or not Toomers knee was down. Having to watch that replay over and over again was pure torture.

Yeah, that BS personal foul call early in the game neutered our defense. That was the most disappointing thing about the game, the one thing this defense has definitely been better at is hitting people... and we didn't do it at all Saturday, at least not after that call. Gotta learn to block that stuff out.

**Rausch** · 12-21-2005, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philfree

One? There were several bad calls in that game. From Parkers taunting call to the false start call where the D lineman of the Giants clearly entered the neutral zone causing our guy to move. Warfield was held on a touchdown run when Barber was 15 yards away and he was held the whole time Barber was running those 15 yards. I could go on but.....

PhilFree

And I could go on for 20 minutes about the times our defense pissed itself and blew easy opportunities to make a play.

Manning was PATHETIC.

All we had to do was stop the run, which is what we do best, and we could have won the game.

We didn't. End of story...

philfree · 12-21-2005, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

And I could go on for 20 minutes about the times our defense pissed itself and blew easy opportunities to make a play.

Manning was PATHETIC.

All we had to do was stop the run, which is what we do best, and we could have won the game.

We didn't. End of story...

I wouldn't dispute that one bit but that doesn't change the facts in regards to the poor officiating.

PhilFree

kregger · 12-21-2005, 03:39 AM

Simple. We didn't show up to play football the last two weeks. NO amount of missed calls or poor excuses can hide the fact that this team was not prepared to do what it takes to make the playoffs. You must beat mediocre teams on the road if you want to play in January. Buffalo and Dallas aren't going anywhere and we let them take the game to us. F@CK YOU DV!

**Rausch** · 12-21-2005, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philfree

I wouldn't dispute that one bit but that doesn't change the facts in regards to the poor officiating.

PhilFree

This team better figure out pretty quick that we play against the other team AND the refs every week.

We can't change it, we have to overcome it...

12-21-2005, 02:28 AM
tk13 ... Join Date: Nov 2001 Casino cash: $-1947500	Flanagan: Toomer's TD in question http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...s/13452684.htm It’s not the knee, or the elbow, that makes you down JEFFREY FLANAGAN Kansas City Star The Chiefs didn’t win or lose Saturday’s game because of one play or one call. But perhaps the most interesting and confusing play of the day was the Amani Toomer touchdown in the fourth quarter that put the Giants up 20-10. The ruling on the field — that Toomer was not down by contact — was challenged by the Chiefs. After the review, the ruling on the field stood. But did the referee blow the call, even after seeing all the replays? CBS play-by-play announcer Jim Nantz originally asked after seeing the very first replay, “Was the knee down?” Nantz’s partner, Phil Simms, quickly corrected Nantz and said: “It doesn’t have to be the knee. If any part of the leg hits the ground (the runner is down).” Simms was 100 percent right. Most of us who follow football are taught early on that it is the knee or the elbow (or any part between) touching the ground that declares a runner down. But according to Steve Alic, AFC information director for the NFL, a runner is down after contact by a defender when “any part of the body except for the hands or feet” hits the ground. That comes from Rule 7, Section 4, Article 1 of the NFL Rule Book. Simms was right from the start. And after some more replays were shown, Nantz then conceded to Simms, “The shin was definitely down.” Then Toomer was down by contact, right? But Simms backed off a bit as more replay angles were shown. Nantz hedged. Then the referee came back from the hooded monitor and said, “The play stands as called, touchdown.” Hmmm. Quite often, officials offer detailed explanations after a challenge. Did the shin touch the ground? (Is that even anatomically possible?) Was the evidence inconclusive? Referee William Carollo chose not to tell us anything. And strangely, no pool reporter was sent to the officials’ locker room afterward to get an explanation — 400 New York reporters, and not one was curious enough to ask? Without an explanation from Carollo, the league has an easy out now. It can simply say the evidence was inconclusive, or that it was not strong enough to overturn the ruling on the field. As for the Chiefs, each week, teams send in taped plays they hope the league will examine and review. The Chiefs won’t say whether the Toomer play is on their hit list. Shouldn’t it be? * Guess who was at the Monday night football game in Baltimore? None other than Jerry Falwell. Falwell, the founder of the Moral Majority and the president of Liberty University, was there to see one of his alums — Packers running back Samkon Gado, who was with the Chiefs earlier this year. Liberty, in Lynchburg, Va., is about a four-hour drive from Baltimore. Gado has become a fascinating story in the NFL, mainly because he was just a third-string running back while at Liberty. “We have 98,000 alumni, and not one represents a university better than Samkon Gado,” Falwell told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. “He’s a very committed Christian whose goal in life is to be a doctor. I think it still is, but he’ll probably play longer than he ever thought.” Falwell told the newspaper that given Gado’s talent, he should have been utilized more in college. “The coach made a mistake,” Falwell said. “The bottom line is that the other two guys were good enough and Samkon was humble enough that it was easy to get lost.” Asked whether the reason he recently fired coach Ken Karcher, who recruited Gado, was because of his failure to get Gado on the field, Falwell said, “I don’t want to comment on that.” * Anyone remember Derrick Blaylock? Blaylock, the former Chief, apparently will play for the Jets this Monday night, the first time since breaking his foot in a week-five game against Buffalo. Blaylock, who spent his first four seasons with the Chiefs, was signed to be Curtis Martin’s successor with the Jets.
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12-21-2005, 02:47 AM	#2
listopencil Immanentize The Eschaton Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In Partibus Infidelium Casino cash: $-1104120	My wife and I were watching that together. We both thought he was down. __________________ *While you live, shine. Have no grief at all. Life exists only for a short while and time demands its toll.*
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12-21-2005, 02:50 AM	#3
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $750478	Shockey was short of a first down on NY's first TD drive. Dick didn't even bother challenging the horrible spot. __________________ Chiefs game films
Posts: 297,576

12-21-2005, 02:58 AM	#4
Demonpenz Woman should only make babies Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Apartment "G UNIT!" Casino cash: $-433864	you know the way we were tackling they would have just gotten in the next play __________________
Posts: 54,959

12-21-2005, 03:14 AM	#8
CHIEF4EVER Just a man in the 'ghan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Jalalabad, Afghanistan Casino cash: $10004900	So the Giants DIDN'T have to wipe an illegal substance off their jerseys? Oh, wait a minute.....wrong team, my bad. __________________ "Igitur qui deciderat pacem, praeparatur bellum" -Flavius Vegetius Renatus
Posts: 13,670

12-21-2005, 03:15 AM	#9
PunkinDrublic Stay down bitch! Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Plano, TX Casino cash: $4320670	If Knight had held on and Bell would have got to him instead of making that pansy assed attempt of a tackle we wouldn't have to worry about whether or not Toomers knee was down. Having to watch that replay over and over again was pure torture. __________________ Disappointing my parents since 1976
Posts: 9,557

12-21-2005, 03:39 AM	#14
kregger thick as a brick Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: alpha centauri Casino cash: $10004925	Simple. We didn't show up to play football the last two weeks. NO amount of missed calls or poor excuses can hide the fact that this team was not prepared to do what it takes to make the playoffs. You must beat mediocre teams on the road if you want to play in January. Buffalo and Dallas aren't going anywhere and we let them take the game to us. F@CK YOU DV!
Posts: 964