Very Confused about something guys...

dallaschiefsfan · 12-03-2007, 10:19 AM

I just can't seem to reconcile the mixed messages I seem to hear about this team...from coaches, fans and pundits/experts.

1. Does this team lack talent or not? On one hand, I'm hearing Len Dawson, Herm and others basically say that the players on the field have to play (ie, coaches can't play for them). On the other hand, others speak about how our draft was great last year and that Herm is a good evaluator of talent. Which is it? Herm can't be that great of an evaluator if the guys he drafts can't play. Isn't it Herm/Carl's fault no matter which way you slice the pie? I can't see how this ever falls to the players--they can't help if they were drafted out of order or overpaid as free agents. My take on the talent: O-line definitely lacks talent. Macintosh is fine...just needs to be moved to RT...but we need a solid LT and a new RG. I'm not convinced Nicewonger is the answer at C. Regardless of one's opinions on whether this team lacks talent or not, in my mind, you elevate and build this team around preferred-player types. On defense, Jared Allen and Derrick Johnson are the guys you want the other guys feeding off of. On offense, it's still Tony G. (geeze...he showed SO MUCH "want" yesterday) and Duane Bowe. These players want to win BADLY...and we need more of their tribe.

2. Are we rebuilding or not? This one drives me nuts. I don't believe you can afford to rebuild in the NFL--you have to ALWAYS be rebuilding while you are always competing. I can't understand any other approach as being rational in today's NFL. San Francisco still seems destroyed by their inability to rebuild while they were competing. Having said that, I'm both confused by Herm's intention on moving the old guys (read, Vermeil's guys) out the door, while bringing in Carney. If you're going to develop some players, then develop a kicker. I remember our lack of patience with Saurbraun several years ago and how he became a great punter for other teams. Kickers are rarely "instantly good" in the NFL. Anyway...I can't seem to get a grasp on what we're doing...but "blowing it up" is stupid and not an option in today's NFL.

3. Is Herm a good NFL head coach or not? This is a question that can't be answered long-term...but we can at least evaluate where he is at this point in his career. He's showed an incredible penchant for turning around a terrible defense quickly. The defense still lacks when it comes to giving up the big play...but an improvement from the leaky defense of the Vermeil era. Herm has also instilled some toughness into the team (once again, mostly on defense). At this point, that still makes Herm nothing more than a great defensive coordinator. I'm most concerned about his inability to see a high scoring offense as something that could be coexistent with a great defense. This just seems myopic to me...and truly separates him from his friend Tony Dungy. When Tony came to Indy, he set out to fix the defense...but not at the expense of a machine of an offense. He kept the good OC and let's that unit operate how it operates best. Herm's seemingly blindness to this approach is disturbing. I know you can't compare Green/Manning or any of the other personnel for that matter...but we had a good system in place and seemed to get quite a bit out of guys that didn't necessarily shine in other systems. I feel like many things would have been different if Herm would have made a HUGE effort to keep Saunders OR get an equally quality OC. Instead he gets Solari...a line-guy. This was the first indication that he might never be a Tony Dungy. This could change, but Herm is officially a bust if we don't get a legit OC during the off-season.

Kylo Ren · 12-03-2007, 10:21 AM

Answer: We need a LT.

I'm not reading all of that.

Brock · 12-03-2007, 10:21 AM

IMO, Herm isn't allowing the team to be successful.

**HemiEd** · 12-03-2007, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan

3. Is Herm a good NFL head coach or not? .

I would say not.

Hammock Parties · 12-03-2007, 10:23 AM

Solari was forced on Herm, FYI.

Pushead2 · 12-03-2007, 10:23 AM

We need Herm to stay away from the Offense. Or just stay away from the Chiefs Period.

Mecca · 12-03-2007, 10:25 AM

Ok...quick answers

1. The team does lack talent, Herm has only been here for 2 drafts. The drafts have been better than they were before but they also haven't been "great" drafts.

2. The Chiefs this year are in a halfass rebuilding mode where they tried to sort of rebuild and win 8 games at the same time...didn't work. And blowing it up is an option to this team because they are still relying on far to many players on the wrong side of 30.

3. Herm has proven over the years he isn't a good head coach. He is horrible with time management and all that. Here's the difference in Herm and Dungy, I think Dungy is slightly smarter and a better coach for D and in general. But the only reason the Colts offense is good is that guy who lines up under center. Manning has the sack to tell Dungy to back the **** off. The organization stands behind Manning too. That is the difference we don't have a QB telling Herm to back off. Remember when people use to jump up and down about Manning overrulling Dungy waving off the punt team? That's what makes the Colts good, they have a QB willing to tell the coach back up off this offense right now, we are not playing that kinda ball.

Here in KC we don't have anything like that.

dallaschiefsfan · 12-03-2007, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pushead2

We need Herm to stay away from the Offense. Or just stay away from the Chiefs Period.

I actually disagree with this. Why would you want to leave Solari alone? Seriously. I would only agree with you when a legit OC is hired...and at that point, I will agree with your statement.

Mecca · 12-03-2007, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan

I actually disagree with this. Why would you want to leave Solari alone? Seriously. I would only agree with you when a legit OC is hired...and at that point, I will agree with your statement.

It's not the OC.....no matter who the OC is Herms offenses always look the same...he tells them to run offense like that, then he fires them like it's their fault to save himself from blame, that is Herm's career.

Pushead2 · 12-03-2007, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan

I actually disagree with this. Why would you want to leave Solari alone? Seriously. I would only agree with you when a legit OC is hired...and at that point, I will agree with your statement.

Why would you want Solari PERIOD.

also if Herm goes we will get a coach that will see Solari is a piece of shit and hire a real OC not a turd holding a clipboard.

Fish · 12-03-2007, 10:31 AM

Doesn't sound like you're confused at all. In fact I'd say you have your opinions well laid out in the thread starter.

But anyway....

1. This team lacks talent. On both sides of the ball. Herm has only had 2 offseasons with the Chiefs. Not enough time to draft/trade for the talent he wants. Does he have the intelligence to get the correct talent? We'll have to wait and see.

2. I don't believe there is any "rebuilding" in today's NFL. But we are attempting to get much younger in general. We've also changed the focus of the team since Herm arrived. We've unsuccessfully made the switch from an offensive-minded team to a defensive ball-control team. Still in progress.

3. Herm has taken his teams to the playoffs 4 out of the last 6 years. That's somewhat of an accomplishment. Didn't go far with it though. We'll see what he does from here.

dallaschiefsfan · 12-03-2007, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC Fish

Doesn't sound like you're confused at all. In fact I'd say you have your opinions well laid out in the thread starter.

I'm not confused about my own opinions. That's not what I implied. I'm confused about the conflicting complaints/ideas of the various factions of fandom. Just trying to sort it out and lay out the issues.

As for Herm going to the playoffs. Don't care. I want a coach that builds a championship team...not a playoff team. You can get into the playoffs via many ways...but almost every championship team has a good offense and defense. As many have done...a team can make the playoffs on the back of their defense or offense...but the other half gets exposed the closer one gets to the big game.

**Baby Lee** · 12-03-2007, 10:38 AM

We have a number of talented players, AND a number of glaring holes at key positions. O-line and QB is a mess [until Brodie gets healthy and gets used to his starter position], and until that is rectified all the talent in the world at skill positions isn't gonna show.
The D is tantalizingly close, but can't hold up an entire game like the Ravens used to, especially when an Edwards gets hurt.

el borracho · 12-03-2007, 10:43 AM

On talent, I would say that Herm has done an average or slightly above average job in the draft but I would also say that this team is severely lacking talent. How is that possible? Carl and Dick. Everyone that made our offense so good has retired in the last two years and there was no talent behind them.

Fish · 12-03-2007, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan

As for Herm going to the playoffs. Don't care. I want a coach that builds a championship team...not a playoff team. You can get into the playoffs via many ways...but almost every championship team has a good offense and defense. As many have done...a team can make the playoffs on the back of their defense or offense...but the other half gets exposed the closer one gets to the big game.

You don't become a championship team without first becoming a playoff team. Don't neglect how important playoff experience is to a young team. You've got to learn how to play at that level and act like you've been there before. Good teams learn from the playoffs, win or lose.

12-03-2007, 10:19 AM
dallaschiefsfan Herm is the worst...horrible Join Date: Sep 2000 Casino cash: $3058850	Very Confused about something guys... I just can't seem to reconcile the mixed messages I seem to hear about this team...from coaches, fans and pundits/experts. 1. Does this team lack talent or not? On one hand, I'm hearing Len Dawson, Herm and others basically say that the players on the field have to play (ie, coaches can't play for them). On the other hand, others speak about how our draft was great last year and that Herm is a good evaluator of talent. Which is it? Herm can't be that great of an evaluator if the guys he drafts can't play. Isn't it Herm/Carl's fault no matter which way you slice the pie? I can't see how this ever falls to the players--they can't help if they were drafted out of order or overpaid as free agents. My take on the talent: O-line definitely lacks talent. Macintosh is fine...just needs to be moved to RT...but we need a solid LT and a new RG. I'm not convinced Nicewonger is the answer at C. Regardless of one's opinions on whether this team lacks talent or not, in my mind, you elevate and build this team around preferred-player types. On defense, Jared Allen and Derrick Johnson are the guys you want the other guys feeding off of. On offense, it's still Tony G. (geeze...he showed SO MUCH "want" yesterday) and Duane Bowe. These players want to win BADLY...and we need more of their tribe. 2. Are we rebuilding or not? This one drives me nuts. I don't believe you can afford to rebuild in the NFL--you have to ALWAYS be rebuilding while you are always competing. I can't understand any other approach as being rational in today's NFL. San Francisco still seems destroyed by their inability to rebuild while they were competing. Having said that, I'm both confused by Herm's intention on moving the old guys (read, Vermeil's guys) out the door, while bringing in Carney. If you're going to develop some players, then develop a kicker. I remember our lack of patience with Saurbraun several years ago and how he became a great punter for other teams. Kickers are rarely "instantly good" in the NFL. Anyway...I can't seem to get a grasp on what we're doing...but "blowing it up" is stupid and not an option in today's NFL. 3. Is Herm a good NFL head coach or not? This is a question that can't be answered long-term...but we can at least evaluate where he is at this point in his career. He's showed an incredible penchant for turning around a terrible defense quickly. The defense still lacks when it comes to giving up the big play...but an improvement from the leaky defense of the Vermeil era. Herm has also instilled some toughness into the team (once again, mostly on defense). At this point, that still makes Herm nothing more than a great defensive coordinator. I'm most concerned about his inability to see a high scoring offense as something that could be coexistent with a great defense. This just seems myopic to me...and truly separates him from his friend Tony Dungy. When Tony came to Indy, he set out to fix the defense...but not at the expense of a machine of an offense. He kept the good OC and let's that unit operate how it operates best. Herm's seemingly blindness to this approach is disturbing. I know you can't compare Green/Manning or any of the other personnel for that matter...but we had a good system in place and seemed to get quite a bit out of guys that didn't necessarily shine in other systems. I feel like many things would have been different if Herm would have made a HUGE effort to keep Saunders OR get an equally quality OC. Instead he gets Solari...a line-guy. This was the first indication that he might never be a Tony Dungy. This could change, but Herm is officially a bust if we don't get a legit OC during the off-season.
Posts: 2,031

12-03-2007, 10:21 AM	#2
Kylo Ren Grandson of Darth Vader Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Starkiller Base Casino cash: $10015175	Answer: We need a LT. I'm not reading all of that. __________________ Forgive me. I feel it again... the call from light. Supreme Leader senses it. Show me again the power of the darkness, and I'll let nothing stand in our way. Show me, grandfather, and I will finish what you started. I will fulfill our destiny.
Posts: 10,197

12-03-2007, 10:21 AM	#3
Brock Say hello to my little friend Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Larryville Casino cash: $9598422	IMO, Herm isn't allowing the team to be successful.
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12-03-2007, 10:23 AM	#5
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $830478	Solari was forced on Herm, FYI. __________________ Chiefs game films
Posts: 297,371

12-03-2007, 10:23 AM	#6
Pushead2 **** off Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New York Casino cash: $6331882	We need Herm to stay away from the Offense. Or just stay away from the Chiefs Period. __________________ "**** up once, lose two teeth....”
Posts: 5,264

12-03-2007, 10:25 AM	#7
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-682950	Ok...quick answers 1. The team does lack talent, Herm has only been here for 2 drafts. The drafts have been better than they were before but they also haven't been "great" drafts. 2. The Chiefs this year are in a halfass rebuilding mode where they tried to sort of rebuild and win 8 games at the same time...didn't work. And blowing it up is an option to this team because they are still relying on far to many players on the wrong side of 30. 3. Herm has proven over the years he isn't a good head coach. He is horrible with time management and all that. Here's the difference in Herm and Dungy, I think Dungy is slightly smarter and a better coach for D and in general. But the only reason the Colts offense is good is that guy who lines up under center. Manning has the sack to tell Dungy to back the **** off. The organization stands behind Manning too. That is the difference we don't have a QB telling Herm to back off. Remember when people use to jump up and down about Manning overrulling Dungy waving off the punt team? That's what makes the Colts good, they have a QB willing to tell the coach back up off this offense right now, we are not playing that kinda ball. Here in KC we don't have anything like that.
Posts: 115,355

12-03-2007, 10:31 AM	#11
Fish Ain't no relax! Join Date: Sep 2005 Casino cash: $-1411081	Doesn't sound like you're confused at all. In fact I'd say you have your opinions well laid out in the thread starter. But anyway.... 1. This team lacks talent. On both sides of the ball. Herm has only had 2 offseasons with the Chiefs. Not enough time to draft/trade for the talent he wants. Does he have the intelligence to get the correct talent? We'll have to wait and see. 2. I don't believe there is any "rebuilding" in today's NFL. But we are attempting to get much younger in general. We've also changed the focus of the team since Herm arrived. We've unsuccessfully made the switch from an offensive-minded team to a defensive ball-control team. Still in progress. 3. Herm has taken his teams to the playoffs 4 out of the last 6 years. That's somewhat of an accomplishment. Didn't go far with it though. We'll see what he does from here. __________________
Posts: 48,850

12-03-2007, 10:38 AM	#13
Baby Lee Supporter Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $8028275	We have a number of talented players, AND a number of glaring holes at key positions. O-line and QB is a mess [until Brodie gets healthy and gets used to his starter position], and until that is rectified all the talent in the world at skill positions isn't gonna show. The D is tantalizingly close, but can't hold up an entire game like the Ravens used to, especially when an Edwards gets hurt. __________________ We need the kind of courage that can withstand the subtle corruption of the cynics - E.W.
Posts: 95,642

12-03-2007, 10:43 AM	#14
el borracho In Pat We Trust Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Albuquerque, NM Casino cash: $2539148	On talent, I would say that Herm has done an average or slightly above average job in the draft but I would also say that this team is severely lacking talent. How is that possible? Carl and Dick. Everyone that made our offense so good has retired in the last two years and there was no talent behind them.
Posts: 12,269