Life WWII Deaths - Page 3

Amnorix · 06-11-2015, 10:39 AM

A fascinating video. Maybe it should go in DC, but it's history and I think has a wider pool of potentially interested people, so

Otter · 06-12-2015, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnorix

I'm not aware of any formal agreement or promise by the Japanese to Germany regarding attacking the USSR.

Not much but the best I could find on short notice:

http://www.haciendapub.com/randomnot...strategic-plan

Quote:

The German Strategy was of course to crush the USSR by a two-front attack: The German Germand High CommandPanzers were to roll into the USSR from the west, which actually took place on June 22, 1941, and the Japanese Imperial Army was to attack Siberia from the east, which never took place. As a result, we shall see what actually happened.

el borracho · 06-12-2015, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnorix

What technology? You could've written the answer in as many words as you typed, but instead tried a pathetic dodge.

The Ark of the Covenant and a mind-reading Cate Blanchet. Duh.

Prison Bitch · 06-12-2015, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Really? The London Police Department (fancy name, but that's what it is) concluded that?! Wow, must be definitive then!

It's bullshit. First, we had friggin nukes, and the Soviets still didn't have any long-range bombers worth the name. Second, IF we had had time to redeploy (and fully mobilize) then the US/UK (plus commonwealths) would have far more population and far more troops, potentially, then the Soviet Union.

I'm not saying by any means that it's some kind of cakewalk. FAR from it, but

IS COMPLETELY WRONG.

Edit to note that Russia would have zero capacity to launch any kind of amphibious assault against England, much less cross the ocean and attack the U.S. Their "navy" at the end of WWII was a complete joke. Like basically non-existent.

Since you didn't read Otters hypothetical, he asked what would've happened had the two allied. And that answer is simple: they'd have overrun Europe (including England) in a matter of weeks.

Your nuke rebuttal won't work because by the time America developed and tested it, we were already deep in 1944. All allied lands would've already been conquered and hence those forces would've been impossible to dislodge. If you're arguing for raining nukes down on Berlin and Moscow, they'd retaliate instantly by liquidating allied civilian populations under their control.

Amnorix · 06-12-2015, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch

Since you didn't read Otters hypothetical, he asked what would've happened had the two allied. And that answer is simple: they'd have overrun Europe (including England) in a matter of weeks.

Europe, YES. But, well, actually, Germany did that all by itself, so that's not giving up much.

England is still going to be a huge problem. The fundamental problem the Germans had was that they couldn't dominate either the skies over England and the English channel, or create a safe environment for ships to transport troops to England, and then resupply them.

Would Russia/Germany together (assuming no US involvement) be able to get there eventually? Yes. Really no doubt.

"in a matter of weeks"? Absolutely not. WTF were they going to do? Row over there with no ****ing tanks, no local air superiority and no naval superiority? That ain't happening.

Quote:

Your nuke rebuttal won't work because by the time America developed and tested it, we were already deep in 1944. All allied lands would've already been conquered and hence those forces would've been impossible to dislodge.

What "allied lands"? Allied territory in Europe? Yes.

If the US gets involved earlier, however, due to Russia/German designs on England (it's all a big hypothetical), then England never gets invaded. With US focusing assistance on England, Germany/Russia will take absolutely forever to get the necessary sea/air power to mount a serious offensive, and though that eventually could be done I think, the US/UK will develop nukes first.

Keep in mind you have a logistical problem here -- the Soviets are pretty freaking far away from England, have no navy worth the name, no heavy bombers, not really even good medium bombers, and their best forces, like the Germans, are their ground troops, which are going to have a real problem crossing that little patch of water between Frnace and England.

Quote:

If you're arguing for raining nukes down on Berlin and Moscow, they'd retaliate instantly by liquidating allied civilian populations under their control.

Not really even worth answering. Nor would it necessarily matter. At this point it's literally a struggle for survival. If A-bombs are what are needed to bring the enemy to its knees, they are what will get used.

Besidess that, we were pounding the shit out of Germany long before we took back control of France. It's not necessarily a useful or effective war fighting technique to kill civilians. We would destroy their leadership and their capacity to fight (industrial centers, etc.). Murdering innocents in France or whatever isn't going to balance those scales.

Prison Bitch · 06-12-2015, 01:22 PM

The U.S. couldn't have saved England from a combined war machine of that magnitude. And most of the bombing soirees into Germany were launched from England so short-haul nuke raids wouldn't have been possible. It'd have to be done with long-range bombers (as it was in Japan) with serious air control and ground cover below. It *could* have been successful but it was no given.

The far likelier scenario is Europe would've been ruled by the two in perpetuity and America wouldve seen any action as futile. Germany alone nearly held off all allies over a 3-front war (I include Italy as a front they defended)

**AustinChief** · 06-12-2015, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch

The U.S. couldn't have saved England from a combined war machine of that magnitude. And most of the bombing soirees into Germany were launched from England

How does one get an invite to a bombing soiree? Are they black tie?

Amnorix · 06-12-2015, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch

The U.S. couldn't have saved England from a combined war machine of that magnitude. And most of the bombing soirees into Germany were launched from England so short-haul nuke raids wouldn't have been possible. It'd have to be done with long-range bombers (as it was in Japan) with serious air control and ground cover below. It *could* have been successful but it was no given.

No matter how big the "war machine", they gotta cross the Channel. Depending on when the US enters the war, then that could be a major problem.

If there was no Channel, you're right. As it was, the German war machine was similarly overwhelming, vis-a-vis England, after France's fall, and couldn't get the job done. "More overwhelming" doesn't necessarily matter, unless T-34s have some kind of previously unknown swimming capability.

**gblowfish** · 06-12-2015, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinChief

How does one get an invite to a bombing soiree? Are they black tie?

I've been bombed at a few soirees myself....

Amnorix · 06-12-2015, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch

The far likelier scenario is Europe would've been ruled by the two in perpetuity and America wouldve seen any action as futile. Germany alone nearly held off all allies over a 3-front war (I include Italy as a front they defended)

Err...no, it's a two front war. Two different enemies on different sides equals two fronts. Unless you want to say the US/UK were also fighting a "two front war" in Europe (in Italy and France), which makes no sense at all.

Second "nearly held off"? In what sense? The German military's high watermark came at the height of Barbarossa, which was the summer of 1941. Once the Russians stopped them at Moscow, and the US entered the war, they just steadily lost the war. They didn't nearly hold off anything -- they just managed to hold them off for four years, which is pretty impressive, but it wasn't like a close call or anything. After Barbarossa failed, there really weren't any "close calls" anymore, either for the Russians or the Brits, much less the Americans.

Amnorix · 06-12-2015, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gblowfish

I've been bombed at a few soirees myself....

I usually like to launch my heat seeking missile after getting bombed at a soiree, personally. I've been to some soirees where I got bombed listening to the B-52s.

**Donger** · 06-12-2015, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnorix

No matter how big the "war machine", they gotta cross the Channel. Depending on when the US enters the war, then that could be a major problem.

If there was no Channel, you're right. As it was, the German war machine was similarly overwhelming, vis-a-vis England, after France's fall, and couldn't get the job done. "More overwhelming" doesn't necessarily matter, unless T-34s have some kind of previously unknown swimming capability.

Correct. Sea Lion was canceled because the Germans hadn't gained air or sea superiority. Add to that the fact that they really didn't have an amphibious force that would have been required to cross the channel...

Hypothetical are fun to a point, but the facts are more fun. The Brits, with a little help, won the BoB and Hitler turned his intentions toward the country he really wanted to fight. The BoB was the first turning point in the European theater and it's victory can't be overstated.

Amnorix · 06-12-2015, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger

Correct. Sea Lion was canceled because the Germans hadn't gained air or sea superiority. Add to that the fact that they really didn't have an amphibious force that would have been required to cross the channel...

Hypothetical are fun to a point, but the facts are more fun. The Brits, with a little help, won the BoB and Hitler turned his intentions toward the country he really wanted to fight. The BoB was the first turning point in the European theater and it's victory can't be overstated.

What, you mean barges on the Rhine aren't ideal amphibious assault naval vessels to cross the English Channel?!?!

**Donger** · 06-12-2015, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnorix

What, you mean barges on the Rhine aren't ideal amphibious assault naval vessels to cross the English Channel?!?!

No, not quite.

The fun fact about the BoB is that ONE German bomber changed the course of the battle. One. If that hadn't happened, the RAF very well could have been destroyed.

Amnorix · 06-12-2015, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger

No, not quite.

The fun fact about the BoB is that ONE German bomber changed the course of the battle. One. If that hadn't happened, the RAF very well could have been destroyed.

Yes. A little accidental bombing on civilians, a little retaliation, and suddenly...

DaveNull · 06-12-2015, 02:44 PM

I've read Marvel "What If" comics that were more plausible than Hitler and Stalin being allies.

06-11-2015, 10:39 AM
Amnorix In BB I trust Join Date: May 2003 Location: Boston, Mass. Casino cash: $10029808	WWII Deaths A fascinating video. Maybe it should go in DC, but it's history and I think has a wider pool of potentially interested people, so
Posts: 43,125

06-12-2015, 01:22 PM	#35
Prison Bitch Rabbi Goldmann Join Date: Nov 2012 Casino cash: $5450159	The U.S. couldn't have saved England from a combined war machine of that magnitude. And most of the bombing soirees into Germany were launched from England so short-haul nuke raids wouldn't have been possible. It'd have to be done with long-range bombers (as it was in Japan) with serious air control and ground cover below. It could have been successful but it was no given. The far likelier scenario is Europe would've been ruled by the two in perpetuity and America wouldve seen any action as futile. Germany alone nearly held off all allies over a 3-front war (I include Italy as a front they defended)
Posts: 87,025

06-12-2015, 02:44 PM	#45
DaveNull Veteran Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Villa Straylight Casino cash: $9975610	I've read Marvel "What If" comics that were more plausible than Hitler and Stalin being allies.
Posts: 2,367