Illegal Immigration: What should we do? - Page 17

Mr. Kotter · 04-11-2006, 11:42 AM

MODS: I'm interested in finding out what CP members think about this issue, and while I understand it's an issue ripe for political discussion.....I'd ask for it to remain in the Lounge for a couple of days, if at all possible, before moving it to its inevitable death in DC.

Fellow ChiefsPlanet posters: Can we try to have a reasonable discussion over this issue without it becoming too heated and denigrating into purely partisan demagoguery or racist insults? Please?

FWIW, I'm following the debate over immigration legislation somewhat closely, and I'm trying to figure out what the middle ground--if there is any--on the issue might be.

Thanks in advance for you opinions and posts.

Poll to follow, shortly....

ChiefsLV · 04-12-2006, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

I'll take 12,000 legal Mexicans before 1 legal frog.

Wow.

Dude, I am so sorry...

Yes, yes you are...

craneref · 04-12-2006, 10:49 PM

My wife is a legal immigrant and it took years, tons of paperwork, and money to naturalize her. She is still proud of her Korean heritage, but she is proud to be an American, and its interests come before Korea's. We adopted a Korean boy last time in Korea and He was not even allowed to enter the USA for two entire years, not even to visit, until he had resided with me for two years. After the two years it took hours upon hours of filling out paperwork, waiting at the embassy, spending money for stamps and passports and numerous background checks, and checks to prove that he really did live with us, at the age of three mind you. It was long, hard and almost had to leave my wife in Korea with him for a bit to make it work, but WE FOLLOWED the laws of the country that I have promised to protect. So why should people who have NO respect for the laws of the USA be allowed the rights privileges of those who have to follow the laws. If I was your neighbor, and I lived in a cardboard box, kids were dressed in ragged clothes with no shoes, you on the other hand lived in a nice house, plenty of land, you worked hard and earned it. If I was able to sneak onto your land, and build a home there before you caught me, should I be allowed to live there, even if my family was living better now, of course not, I would be arrested for CRIMINAL trespassing and have my tail hauled off. These ILLEGAL immigrants KNOW that they are breaking the law, that is why the sneak into this country under the cover of night or where nobody is watching. They are stealing the rights and privelges of Americans and LEGAL immigrants who have followed the rules to be here LEGALLY. It is right that this is AMERICA where if you work hard and honestly , you can achieve your dreams, but I don't remember THEFT as being part of a hard working person, with integrity. You can flower it up all you want, but it is still CRIMINAL trespassing and they are STEALING from this country. Try sneaking into Mexico or any other country (Canada excluded,

) and find out what happens to you. Every year America allows more LEGAL immigrants than ALL other countries combined, the American dream is alive, but ONLY if you follow the rules.

ChiefaRoo · 04-12-2006, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

Is illegal immigration the new gay marriage?

No, this issue actually matters.

**dirk digler** · 04-12-2006, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luzap

I guess the 'Think it through' part of my post escaped you...

'Open Immigration' as practiced in the 1900s does not equate to 'open borders.' It is not my job to educate you ~ go look it up yourself.

It is posts like this that make me realize that the terrorists are winning. People are so scared that they will sacrifice the things that made our country great on the alter of security.

Luz
it's too bad our founding fathers weren't faced with the issues of safety over liberty and enterprise... Oh, wait a minute...

It sounds the same to me...

From wikipedia:

Quote:

Free migration or open immigration is the belief that people should be able to migrate to whatever country they choose, free of substantial barriers. Although the two are not the same issue, free immigration is similar in spirit to the concept of free trade, and both are advocated by free market economists on the grounds that economics is not a zero-sum game and that free markets are, in their opinion, the best way to create a fairer and balanced economic system, thereby increasing the overall economic benefits to all concerned parties. Paradoxically, many libertarians, socialists, and anarchists advocate open immigration, notwithstanding other noteworthy differences among these three political ideologies.

I don't remember in the 1900's that illegals could fly jet airplanes into buildings and kill 3000 people or possibly bring in a nuclear bomb and kill MILLIONS.

If you are so Open Immigration that why in post #235 do you suggest we need to discriminate against Middle Eastern people? That is anti-American and discriminatory. In other words you are a hypocrite.

**Rausch** · 04-12-2006, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefsLV

Yes, yes you are...

Come on sweetness, it's like yer not even trying...

**Rausch** · 04-12-2006, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler

If you are so Open Immigration that why in post #235 do you suggest we need to discriminate against Middle Eastern people? That is anti-American and discriminatory. In other words you are a hypocrite.

Hypocricy isn't a matter of if, but when...

ChiefsLV · 04-12-2006, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

Come on sweetness, it's like yer not even trying...

You're right, I'm not. But if I were an illegal Mexican immigrant I'd be trying 14 hours a day, 7 days a week for $3.35 an hour, but alas. Don't make me stoop to this level again.

**Rausch** · 04-13-2006, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefsLV

You're right, I'm not. But if I were an illegal Mexican immigrant I'd be trying 14 hours a day, 7 days a week for $3.35 an hour, but alas. Don't make me stoop to this level again.

You got me pegged.

I hate Mexicans and Mexican immigrants.

Wouldn't have anything to do with them...

onescrewleftuntwisted · 04-13-2006, 01:21 AM

build the fence and every 25 yard have a bunker with 2 guys in it and a 50 cal.

donkhater · 04-13-2006, 06:00 AM

jspchief--

I started reading this thread and had to respond before I got all the way through.

I totally understand your point about there not being enough American citizens available to backfill jobs if illegals were deported, but I have another viewpoint.

My Brother-in-law isn't educated enough to have anything other than a trade job and that's just fine with him. But he is constantly undermined by the lower wages that illegals can get and nearly price him out of everything. The point its, he is following the LAWS of this country and just trying to earn a modest living, but ILLEGAL workers who don't have to pay taxes and employers who also don't pay employment taxes undercut him just enough that it can be tough to get work.

Sure prices will rise, but not that much. There isn't the vacumm of workforce out there that you may think. I know that he, and others he knows, want to make a living in construction, but essentially can't because there isn't room for them.

Inspector · 04-13-2006, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craneref

My wife is a legal immigrant and it took years, tons of paperwork, and money to naturalize her. She is still proud of her Korean heritage, but she is proud to be an American, and its interests come before Korea's. We adopted a Korean boy last time in Korea and He was not even allowed to enter the USA for two entire years, not even to visit, until he had resided with me for two years. After the two years it took hours upon hours of filling out paperwork, waiting at the embassy, spending money for stamps and passports and numerous background checks, and checks to prove that he really did live with us, at the age of three mind you. It was long, hard and almost had to leave my wife in Korea with him for a bit to make it work, but WE FOLLOWED the laws of the country that I have promised to protect. So why should people who have NO respect for the laws of the USA be allowed the rights privileges of those who have to follow the laws. If I was your neighbor, and I lived in a cardboard box, kids were dressed in ragged clothes with no shoes, you on the other hand lived in a nice house, plenty of land, you worked hard and earned it. If I was able to sneak onto your land, and build a home there before you caught me, should I be allowed to live there, even if my family was living better now, of course not, I would be arrested for CRIMINAL trespassing and have my tail hauled off. These ILLEGAL immigrants KNOW that they are breaking the law, that is why the sneak into this country under the cover of night or where nobody is watching. They are stealing the rights and privelges of Americans and LEGAL immigrants who have followed the rules to be here LEGALLY. It is right that this is AMERICA where if you work hard and honestly , you can achieve your dreams, but I don't remember THEFT as being part of a hard working person, with integrity. You can flower it up all you want, but it is still CRIMINAL trespassing and they are STEALING from this country. Try sneaking into Mexico or any other country (Canada excluded,

) and find out what happens to you. Every year America allows more LEGAL immigrants than ALL other countries combined, the American dream is alive, but ONLY if you follow the rules.

Mr. Kotter · 04-13-2006, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler

Rob I will explain a little better but my positions are all National Security related and IMO that trumps most everything else.

1. Building a high tech fence and the US Military guarding the border will instantly stop 98% of illegal crossings and drug trafficking IMO. We need to stop the real problem which is the illegal crossings. IMO this should be the first priority because without it then the problem will always exist.

2. I believe we should stop all legal immigration because we can't handle the load we have now and we have no idea who is in this country or not. Until we have a better grasp shut down any immigration.

3. Basically what I am saying here is not actively have a policy to pursue and round up illegal immigrants unless they are wanted for crimes committed in the US. What I don't want and which is impossible is to go round up 12 million illegals and deport them. IMO that would wreck the economy. But at the same time if INS or police come across illegals then they need to deport them. IMO punishing small businesses is not the answer.

4. I agree with you and I am not totally sold on it but it could be a start.

5. This one really pisses me off. Not only do you and I and the rest of the country have to support dead beat losers who can't get a job but now we have to support Non-****ing Americans with my tax dollars. **** that shit. These illegals get better medical care than most Americans do and that is not right. Also from what I understand in CA if an illegal wants to go to college they can and don't have to pay out of state tuition but if I wanted to send my kid to college in CA then I would. Have ****ing messed up is that?

Thanks for taking the time to respond, dirk. I certainly understand the national security concerns, and agree that tightening border control should be a priority. I'm just not convinced that a fence is the answer: very expensive to build, maintain, and guard--and will it even really work? I guess I could see shutting down the borders briefly, in exteme circumstances, but I'm not sure we are there yet. Deporting illegals without addressing the reason they come here seems pointless to me. As I've said, national ID would be fine with me; I just think we are still a ways off on getting that one passed. Sadly, it'll probably take another 9/11 or something similar to wake people up. Your last point is the one I probably agree most strongly about. For the life of me, I don't understand how we can administer programs or services to people we know to be here illegally. That makes no sense. If we are gonna do that, then some sort of earned amnesty and eventual citizenship should be arranged for those people; otherwise, I think we should deport them.

Mr. Kotter · 04-13-2006, 09:10 AM

Thanks to all those that responded to the poll, and contributed to the thread. I learned some things I didn't know, including some things that have shaped my opinion on the subject.

greg63 · 04-13-2006, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefsLV

Yes, yes you are...

People continue to use my line incorrectly; it is as follows:

Why yes; yes you are.

Please try to get it right, or there will be a $500.00 service charge.

Logical · 05-20-2006, 09:13 PM

Just proving a point

View Poll Results: What should we do? (Check ALL that apply)
Grant "amnesty" to illegals who've been here at least 2 full years. (time to be negotiated)	8	6.67%
Streamline the naturalization process for current illegals, expediting their road toward citizenship.	13	10.83%
Allow illegals now here to be naturalized, eventually; but crack down on "new" illegals	15	12.50%
Grant eventual citizenship to illegals, but after a waiting period, a symbolic fine, and strict naturalization requirements.	16	13.33%
Crackdown harshly on businesses that are lazy, or who knowingly hire illegals.	57	47.50%
Build a 700 mile fence/wall to be heavily fortified and guarded to stop future illegals.	38	31.67%
Illegals should face a significant fine, and repayment of any back taxes....before being considered for citizenship.	28	23.33%
Illegals here for less than two years should be deported.	23	19.17%
Illegals here from 2-7 years, would be evaluated on a case-by-case basis; good "citizens" could be naturalized, but some would be deported.	24	20.00%
Illegals here for at least 8 years, could apply for expedited citizenship if they've been law-adiding (generally) and held jobs consistently.	24	20.00%
Deport only those illegals who've become problems and have not consistently maintained employment.	20	16.67%
Deport ALL, or nearly all, who entered the country illegally.	55	45.83%
Increase border patrol SUBSTANTIALLY, possibly including use of the armed forces as necessary.	58	48.33%
Utilize armed forces as a routine part of daily border patrol.	38	31.67%
Do whatever GAZ says....	12	10.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

04-11-2006, 11:42 AM
Mr. Kotter Self Ban Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: In some's minds... Casino cash: $3194285	Illegal Immigration: What should we do? MODS: I'm interested in finding out what CP members think about this issue, and while I understand it's an issue ripe for political discussion.....I'd ask for it to remain in the Lounge for a couple of days, if at all possible, before moving it to its inevitable death in DC. Fellow ChiefsPlanet posters: Can we try to have a reasonable discussion over this issue without it becoming too heated and denigrating into purely partisan demagoguery or racist insults? Please? FWIW, I'm following the debate over immigration legislation somewhat closely, and I'm trying to figure out what the middle ground--if there is any--on the issue might be. Thanks in advance for you opinions and posts. Poll to follow, shortly....
Posts: 46,966

04-12-2006, 10:49 PM	#242
craneref He Man bronco hater club Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Land of the Uneasy Calm Casino cash: $10004977	My wife is a legal immigrant and it took years, tons of paperwork, and money to naturalize her. She is still proud of her Korean heritage, but she is proud to be an American, and its interests come before Korea's. We adopted a Korean boy last time in Korea and He was not even allowed to enter the USA for two entire years, not even to visit, until he had resided with me for two years. After the two years it took hours upon hours of filling out paperwork, waiting at the embassy, spending money for stamps and passports and numerous background checks, and checks to prove that he really did live with us, at the age of three mind you. It was long, hard and almost had to leave my wife in Korea with him for a bit to make it work, but WE FOLLOWED the laws of the country that I have promised to protect. So why should people who have NO respect for the laws of the USA be allowed the rights privileges of those who have to follow the laws. If I was your neighbor, and I lived in a cardboard box, kids were dressed in ragged clothes with no shoes, you on the other hand lived in a nice house, plenty of land, you worked hard and earned it. If I was able to sneak onto your land, and build a home there before you caught me, should I be allowed to live there, even if my family was living better now, of course not, I would be arrested for CRIMINAL trespassing and have my tail hauled off. These ILLEGAL immigrants KNOW that they are breaking the law, that is why the sneak into this country under the cover of night or where nobody is watching. They are stealing the rights and privelges of Americans and LEGAL immigrants who have followed the rules to be here LEGALLY. It is right that this is AMERICA where if you work hard and honestly , you can achieve your dreams, but I don't remember THEFT as being part of a hard working person, with integrity. You can flower it up all you want, but it is still CRIMINAL trespassing and they are STEALING from this country. Try sneaking into Mexico or any other country (Canada excluded, ) and find out what happens to you. Every year America allows more LEGAL immigrants than ALL other countries combined, the American dream is alive, but ONLY if you follow the rules. __________________ I have two favorite teams, the CHIEFS and whoever play the broncos this week "I'd say the French and broncos were 'scumbags' but that would be a disservice to bags full of scum." - Dennis Miller -
Posts: 1,114

04-13-2006, 01:21 AM	#249
onescrewleftuntwisted if only i had a hammer Join Date: May 2005 Location: your momma didn't say Casino cash: $10004900	build the fence and every 25 yard have a bunker with 2 guys in it and a 50 cal. __________________ quote lost in translation
Posts: 1,090

04-13-2006, 06:00 AM	#250
donkhater Brilliant!! Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Indiana, USA Casino cash: $10014051	jspchief-- I started reading this thread and had to respond before I got all the way through. I totally understand your point about there not being enough American citizens available to backfill jobs if illegals were deported, but I have another viewpoint. My Brother-in-law isn't educated enough to have anything other than a trade job and that's just fine with him. But he is constantly undermined by the lower wages that illegals can get and nearly price him out of everything. The point its, he is following the LAWS of this country and just trying to earn a modest living, but ILLEGAL workers who don't have to pay taxes and employers who also don't pay employment taxes undercut him just enough that it can be tough to get work. Sure prices will rise, but not that much. There isn't the vacumm of workforce out there that you may think. I know that he, and others he knows, want to make a living in construction, but essentially can't because there isn't room for them. __________________ The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants
Posts: 3,994

04-13-2006, 09:10 AM	#253
Mr. Kotter Self Ban Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: In some's minds... Casino cash: $3194285	Thanks to all those that responded to the poll, and contributed to the thread. I learned some things I didn't know, including some things that have shaped my opinion on the subject. __________________ Movin' On...
Posts: 46,966

05-20-2006, 09:13 PM	#255
Logical Screw U if U can't take a joke Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10004900	Just proving a point
Posts: 31,579