Haley versus McDaniels

[SenselessChiefsFan]

For those that think I love Cassel, I don't. I just think that Haley isn't nearly the offensive coordinator that McDaniels is. I think the biggest reason that many on here think that Orton is better is because he had two years with McDaniels while the Chiefs had Haley, then Weis, and now Haley again.

Orton and Cassel have both struggled this year.

Haley had a great offense in Arizona with Kurt Warner. McDaniels had a great offense with Tom Brady, but he also has had good offenses with Kyle Orton and Matt Cassel....ahem.... Kyle Orton and Matt Cassel.

In 2007, Haley's first as a offensive coordinator, there is no comparison. McDaniels had a record setting offense at the top of the league. Haley had the 12th best offense. Winner: McDaniels. Haley might get some credit here since he was in his first year with the Cardinals. But, The Pats set the world on fire and set records and were just so much better, that you have to give the nod to McDaniels.

In 2008, Haley had the fourth rated offense. He had Kurt Warner, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, and Breaston. Granted, the running backs weren't great. Edgerin James wasn't quite what he once was and they had Tim Hightower.

In 2008, McDaniels had the fifth rated offense. He had Matt Cassel, Randy Moss and Wes Welker. And, believe it or not, the running backs in NE were even MORE underwhelming. Lamont Jordon, Maroney, Sammy Morris.

2008 edge: Despite Arizona ranking one spot higher, it would be foolish not to notice the distinct advantage in talent around Haley. so the edge goes to McDaniels.

2009- Daniels had the 15th best offense. He had Orton, Marshall and Royal. He didn't have much of a running threat.

In 2009, Haley had the 25th best offense. He had Matt Cassel, D-Bowe, and Charles. Yeah, he didn't give Charles a ton of time until the end of the season. Who's fault is that? Who is the coach that saw JC on the field every day and still decided to play LJ?

In 2010, Haley had Weis as offensive coordinator. The Chiefs were 12th in offense. The Broncos were 13th. The Chiefs had better offensive talent. Jones was still playing well last year, JC was out of this world. They had D-Bowe and Moeaki as well. Luckily, Haley had Weis to know how to use the talent. With Weis, they managed to be one spot higher than the Broncos.

McDaniels had Orton, B LLoyd, Eddie Royal. Yet, he managed to get to the 13th ranking.

2011. Finally, a year that Haley can probably claim as better than McDaniels. The Chiefs are 27th in offense. The Rams are 29th.

Now, lets look at talent. Matt Cassel versus Sam Bradford. Bradford is the obvious answer. However, a second year guy going into a new system, and an offseason with no training camp. Again, Bradford is the better guy, but overall situation? Haley might have the better overall situation. Cassel and even Palko had been with the Chiefs for a full year.

Both McDaniels and Haley have had to have two games played with their backup QB.

Jackson is clearly superior to anything that the Chiefs have in the backfield since JC went down.

However, look at the talent on the outside and you will see the Chiefs have Bowe, Breaston and Baldwin..... heck, even McCluster would probably be one of the Rams top two WR's. Not kidding. They have Brandon Lloyd and Brandon Gibson. That is their top two WR's.

So, even conceding that they have the best QB and RB in St. Louis, you look at the fact that McDaniels came to a brand new team without an offseason and is only 2 spots worse than the team that Haley has been building for three years.

McDaniels was a crappy personnel guy. I concede that fact every day of the week. But, when it comes down to x's and o's. He outshines Haley by a huge margin.

I think Haley may be the better overall head coach, but from a purely offensive creativity and coordination standpoint. Haley is far inferior to McDaniels.

And any comparison between Orton and Cassel has to be based in this reality.

And, please understand, I am not a huge Cassel fan. I want him gone. But, this idea that Orton is an upgrade is fools gold. They are both mediocre QB's that have looked good under McDaniels. And, in Cassel's case, at least decent under Weis.

[xztop12]

i like josh more than haley. he seems more hands on in the game, where as haley just stands there with his arms crossed looking for the player whos going to be the biggest tough guy to give more playing time to

[KC Hawks]

I keep thinking this is another "Haley vs McDonald's" thread.

[Royal Fanatic]

Originally Posted by xztop12

i like josh more than haley. he seems more hands on in the game, where as haley just stands there with his arms crossed looking for the player whos going to be the biggest tough guy to give more playing time to

That's brilliant. Please post more.

[xztop12]

Originally Posted by Royal Fanatic

That's brilliant. Please post more.

i liek you a lot.

i used sarcasm too, am i a good troll?

[JCharles1981]

Originally Posted by Terribilis

Do you believe an effective pro set QB/ offense is the only way to win a superbowl? just curious.

Nope. The New England Patriots proved that an offense can do mediocre in the Superbowl, and still win with a game ending field goal, which they did twice. Remember the Tampa Bay Buccaneers' SB win against the Oakland Raiders? Their defense intercepted Rich Gannon 5 TIMES, with three of them being returned for touchdowns. Brad Johnson is not what led the Bucs to the Superbowl, it was their scorching hot defense that did.

A wise man once said that an offense wins seasonal games, but defenses win championships.

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by JCharles1981

Nope. The New England Patriots proved that an offense can do mediocre in the Superbowl, and still win with a game ending field goal, which they did twice. Remember the Tampa Bay Buccaneers' SB win against the Oakland Raiders? Their defense intercepted Rich Gannon 5 TIMES, with three of them being returned for touchdowns. Brad Johnson is not what led the Bucs to the Superbowl, it was their scorching hot defense that did.

A wise man once said that an offense wins seasonal games, but defenses win championships.

I hope you die horribly.

[JCharles1981]

Originally Posted by Omega

I hope you die horribly.

Why? Because I spoke an ounce of truth you disagreed with? By the way, eight of the last sixteen Superbowl MVP's have been non-QB's. What does that entail? It means that a QB can only be half as good as the rest of his offense, and still win a Superbowl title. Just over 50% of all the Superbowl MVP's have been quarterbacks, so a QB doesn't necessarily need to be a superstar to lead his team to the Superbowl.

One other thing worth noting is that out of the 6 Superbowls won by the Pittsburgh Steelers, the SB MVP had been awarded to a QB just twice (Terry Bradshaw). Plus, of the 7 Superbowls that the Dallas Cowboys have been to, only 2 of them ended in the QB getting the Superbowl MVP trophy.

[BigMeatballDave]

Originally Posted by JCharles1981

Nope. The New England Patriots proved that an offense can do mediocre in the Superbowl, and still win with a game ending field goal, which they did twice. Remember the Tampa Bay Buccaneers' SB win against the Oakland Raiders? Their defense intercepted Rich Gannon 5 TIMES, with three of them being returned for touchdowns. Brad Johnson is not what led the Bucs to the Superbowl, it was their scorching hot defense that did.

A wise man once said that an offense wins seasonal games, but defenses win championships.

In case you haven't noticed, that style of play just doesn't win SBs nowadays.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

This is Sensible's passive aggressive streak showing it's face again...

You know that deep down he really wants to post a treatise on why he LOVES McDaniel and thinks that having him and Cassel, together, in KC next year makes him wet with anticipation.

But he knows what kind of dogpile that would be so instead he tries to mask it all with stats and gobbledy-gook...

Not really. I would have been fine with McDaniels coming in this year as OC.

Assuming he is still with the Rams after this season, he can't come in as OC next year.

The next coaching hire is actually pretty difficult. A guy like Cowher would be great, but he will want his own staff and more control over personnel.

A guy like Fisher would be good, but he is burnt out and probably wouldn't stay with the 3-4.

I wonder if Crennel would stay on as a DC if the Chiefs replaced Haley without giving him the job.

I could see a guy like Mangini or McDaniels being hired as HC. Of those two, I like Mangini better as HC.

But, the reality is that Haley needs to go. No matter what happens with Cassel, Haley needs to go.

Haley is the one putting Palko back out on the field and talking about all the things that go into being a QB aside from throwing the ball and how Palko is excellent at all those things.

Haley is the one that started LJ over JC.

I actually like Haley's personality. But, I think he took over a team with Kurt Warner, Larry Fitzgerald and Boldin and that made him look better than he is.

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by JCharles1981

By the way, eight of the last sixteen Superbowl MVP's have been non-QB's. What does that entail? It means that a QB can only be half as good as the rest of his offense, and still win a Superbowl title. Just over 50% of all the Superbowl MVP's have been quarterbacks, so a QB doesn't necessarily need to be a superstar to lead his team to the Superbowl.
.

This is the dumbest ****ing post anyone on this forum has ever made in regards to the QB debate.

For ****'s sake, just because Jerry Rice won the MVP in a Super Bowl doesn't mean Montana isn't a great QB. Santonio Holmes and Deion Branch won MVPs in Super Bowls with Tom Brady and Ben Roethlisberger. You want to tell me they aren't "superstar" QBs?

What about: John Elway, Brett Favre and Troy Aikman? They didn't win MVPs in Super Bowl wins.

****ing idiot.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Originally Posted by Omega

You keep repeating this shit while ignoring the fact that McDaniels has done shit in St. Louis with Bradford.

Kyle Orton is not going to magically surrender his ability to throw accurately without McDaniels.

You are full of crap.

Bradford has far less talent around him than Cassel has here or Orton had in Denver.

McDaniels is starting from scratch in St. Louis. Haley has been building this offense for three years.

Bowe, Breaston, Baldwin in KC versus..... Brandon LLoyd and Gibson.

Even McCluster would be the second best pass catcher there.

Yes, they have Steven Jackson, which is better than any back in KC.

But, the offensive line in KC is better, as hard as that is to believe.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Read what he wrote.

"Please understand, I hate Matt Cassel. But I really like the thought of bringing in McDaniels to work with Matt Cassel."

Passive.

Aggressive.

I don't remember writing that. If you could, do me a favor and quote the post that I did that in and just bold that part for me.

Thanks.

Hate is a strong word for my feelings towards Cassel. I would like him replaced. I would like a franchise QB. But, to excuse Haley's shortcomings because of Cassel is foolish. Weis and McDaniels have proven that you can have a decent,if not great, offense with Cassel.

That isn't to say I want Cassel here or even McDaniels. (other than as OC) It is just to point out how inept Haley has been.

It isn't like Haley has no say in personnel. Cassel may not be his ideal QB, but, if he hate him as much as this board thinks....If he really felt like he couldn't have an offense that he wanted with Cassel..... Cassel wouldn't be here.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Originally Posted by listopencil

I would say that Orton looked better while McD was coaching him up. Obviously Orton isn't just going to lose ability just because a particular coach isn't around. But Orton did lose a valuable mentor and looked substantially worse to start this season. Too many variables to say it was a direct cause-and-effect relationship. McD's departure and Orton's decline, that is.

This year, Orton looked like the QB that he was in Chicago. ie: Orton looked like he did every other year that he wasn't being coached by McDaniels.

But, I am SURE, that this is all just coincidence.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Originally Posted by Discuss Thrower

There's an idea, we trade 2012 and 2013 1st rounders for Bradford... and Cassel to sweeten the pot.

No thanks.

I would rather have RGIII or Landry Jones.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Originally Posted by xztop12

i like josh more than haley. he seems more hands on in the game, where as haley just stands there with his arms crossed looking for the player whos going to be the biggest tough guy to give more playing time to

I actually like Haley more as a HC, but he needs to hire a competent OC.

Muir isn't cutting it.

I don't know that Haley can work with a competent OC for an extended time period. Heck, by the end of the season last year, the rumors were swirling about him and Charlie Weis.