Did y'all catch Squirmin Herman's spot on ESPN about Shady?

[Bowser]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Because when Herm left, so did his X's and O's. If you were a terrible coach but left a good situation to your successor after you left, that's not a waste of years.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I don't have a preconceived notion that all free agency is expensive. But you can't rule out that if the Chiefs spent on long-term free agents, they could have easily added to those 17 - 25 contributors. It also allows you to buy lots of small contributors. Fasano, Schwartz, Vickerson, Branch, etc.... these guys were cheap, but they're not that cheap for a team trying to clean their cap up.

I don't think Herm was great at talent evaluation. Much credit goes to Kuharich and the scouts. But (LJ aside) he generally put the right guys over the field, insisted on a youth movement (right thing to do), and yes the decision to blow up the roster was absolutely correct and it was extremely ballsy.

My point all along is and always has been: there are a lot worse coaches than Herm, but I never wanted his 9-7 ceiling. But he made bold moves during the rebuild most coaches wouldn't, and they put the team in a good situation in 2009. You may not agree with the talent that was on there. But it was smart to show massive restrain in free agency vs. band-aiding. It was smart to clean the roster up from lots of bad contracts. It was smart to get your young guys out there early to sink or swim. Any reasonable GM should have taken that 2009 roster and immediately turned them into at least an 8-8 team. I truly believe that.

So he was horrible at X and O. You're comfortable with that assessment.

So he was horrible at franchise management. You're comfortable with that assessment.

So he was horrible at gameplanning/practices during the week. You're comfortable with that assessment.

You and I agree to disagree on how much actual talent was here when he was done. I'm cool with that.

You fully acknowledge that Kuharich et. al. had at least some of the responsibility for bringing the talent that ended up here in.

So you're whole argument for telling me it is absurd that he wrecked the franchise because he had the balls to play the young kids? That's it?

Wow. OK.

Herm's horrible. He wrecked the franchise.

Lots of teams have massive roster turnover without playing like 7th graders. He flubbed it up bad. But I guess kudo's for bucking the King Carl trend.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

So he was horrible at X and O. You're comfortable with that assessment.

So he was horrible at franchise management. You're comfortable with that assessment.

So he was horrible at gameplanning/practices during the week. You're comfortable with that assessment.

He isn't as bad as haters want him to be. I don't care how talented your roster is, you don't make that many playoff games by accident. But his ceiling was 9-7 which is unacceptable to me.

You and I agree to disagree on how much actual talent was here when he was done. I'm cool with that.

You fully acknowledge that Kuharich et. al. had at least some of the responsibility for bringing the talent that ended up here in.

So you're whole argument for telling me it is absurd that he wrecked the franchise because he had the balls to play the young kids? That's it?

Wow. OK.

Yes, it's absurd to say a guy who inherited a hot mess then left the team on a clean slate "wrecked the franchise." And yes, I think it is a complete misrepresentation to say he took a playoff team and turned them into a 2-14 squad. That lets Vermeil completely off the hook and Vermeil is by far the bigger culprit for the mess between 2006-2008 than Herm was.

Herm's horrible. He wrecked the franchise.

Lots of teams have massive roster turnover without playing like 7th graders. He flubbed it up bad. But I guess kudo's for bucking the King Carl trend.

No, they don't. Not like the Chiefs had. The Chiefs had the oldest roster in football and they tried to salvage it by loading the team up with tons and tons of credit card debt. The drafting under Lynn Stiles during the Vermeil era was arguably the worst in the NFL during that time. Oldest team in football. Years of cap hell. A ridiculously shitty pipeline of young players after years and years of failed drafts. This was the perfect storm of shit.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

He isn't as bad as haters want him to be. I don't care how talented your roster is, you don't make that many playoff games by accident. But his ceiling was 9-7 which is unacceptable to me.

You said he was a junk coach, but he brought in good guys so he was a pass. I finally get you to see that the roster wasn't talented and now he's a good coach again? No he was a good coach because Waters was still there and he hadn't killed LJ yet. Until he did, but whatever, you said he was bad at coaching, so cool I guess.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Yes, it's absurd to say a guy who inherited a hot mess then left the team on a clean slate "wrecked the franchise." And yes, I think it is a complete misrepresentation to say he took a playoff team and turned them into a 2-14 squad. That lets Vermeil completely off the hook and Vermeil is by far the bigger culprit for the mess between 2006-2008 than Herm was.

I didn't say he took a playoff squad and turned them into 2-14 (even though he did). I never said Vermeil was bad. You started the comparisons to Vermeil. I merely discovered that he had far more guys that played 3 additional years than Herm did.

What I said was he took a proud competitive franchise and turned it into a joke. If you don't think the Thigpistol and the D that yielded 4 ****ing sacks is not a joke, then you have a very serious sense of humor.

And you're going to put 08 on Vermeil? There weren't even any of his dudes left. They were all Herm's dudes. And they had some money so don't run that cap shit at me again.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

No, they don't. Not like the Chiefs had. The Chiefs had the oldest roster in football and they tried to salvage it by loading the team up with tons and tons of credit card debt. The drafting under Lynn Stiles during the Vermeil era was arguably the worst in the NFL during that time. Oldest team in football. Years of cap hell. A ridiculously shitty pipeline of young players after years and years of failed drafts. This was the perfect storm of shit.

Yes. Yes they do. Remember the Steelers being OLD AS ****. Then they built a defense. Then they drafted Ben. Then they won Super Bowls. Then they got old as **** again. Now their defense isn't stellar but they're all over the Super Bowl radar because Ben rapes faces. Never even got close to 2-14.

Remember how old the Cheatriots were after Moss and company left? They got real young real fast and didn't shit the ****ing bed.

Hell even the Ravens who were old as **** are currently 4-9. And Flacco died. And Suggs Died. And Steve Smith died. But still they're not even done and they still managed twice as many wins as Herm's boys.

Remember when Harbitch made the 9ers young? They went....oh that's right. They never sucked shit. And they were a true tire fire. And you can't run the "But they haz QB." shit at me.

Remember when the Giants were old after they won a super bowl? They were old as ****. Where was their 2 win year?

Bottom line: YOU DON'T HAVE TO SUCK TO TURN IT AROUND.