Did y'all catch Squirmin Herman's spot on ESPN about Shady?

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

No, this wasn't any usual turnover. This was Dan Snyder like cap mismanagement.

Again, we had the NFL's oldest roster. By a mile. We had the worst pipeline of young players due to being the worst drafting team in the vermeil years. By a mile. And we made the problem worse because we kept borrowing future money to try to force a run in 2005. You can't compare this to an ordinary transition.

There are two things that could have salvaged respectability. We should have blown it up in 2006. And you seem to think we should have spent in 2008 to start building the roster - - fair point but I completely disagree.

I didn't make any assertion that we should have done anything. All I've ever said is that Herm made the team a joke and that it is completely unacceptable. But you're cool with it.

So go Herm I guess?

You can think that 2-14 was a job well done. I'll keep thinking that he wrecked the ****ing franchise.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

I didn't make any assertion that we should have done anything. All I've ever said is that Herm made the team a joke and that it is completely unacceptable. But you're cool with it.

So go Herm I guess?

You can think that 2-14 was a job well done. I'll keep thinking that he wrecked the ****ing franchise.

And again, I don't know how you can claim he wrecked the franchise when he basically moved us from the oldest team in football with a lot of expensive dead weight contracts to the youngest team in football with $57m in cap space and the #3 pick. We were set up for a big offseason in 2009 which pioli squandered.

You see 2 wins as a reflection of what he could do. I see 2 wins as impressive restraint to not trade meaningless wins in a losing season at the expense of saving money for the future, developing our young talent, and securing a better draft position.

We set ourselves for a huge offseason in 2009. I don't know how Herm and Kuharich would have handled it. Perhaps they duff it. But that to me would have been the mark of Herms legacy, not the three years prior where he was trying to clean up vermeils messes. But he never got that chance which I'm okay with.

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

And again, I don't know how you can claim he wrecked the franchise when he basically moved us from the oldest team in football with a lot of expensive dead weight contracts to the youngest team in football with $57m in cap space and the #3 pick. We were set up for a big offseason in 2009 which pioli squandered.

You see 2 wins as a reflection of what he could do. I see 2 wins as impressive restraint to not trade meaningless wins in a losing season at the expense of saving money for the future, developing our young talent, and securing a better draft position.

We set ourselves for a huge offseason in 2009. I don't know how Herm and Kuharich would have handled it. Perhaps they duff it. But that to me would have been the mark of Herms legacy, not the three years prior where he was trying to clean up vermeils messes. But he never got that chance which I'm okay with.

Herm would have made a great GM/Draft room guy.

He was a terrible game day HC...

[FloridaMan88]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

And again, I don't know how you can claim he wrecked the franchise when he basically moved us from the oldest team in football with a lot of expensive dead weight contracts to the youngest team in football with $57m in cap space and the #3 pick. We were set up for a big offseason in 2009 which pioli squandered.

You see 2 wins as a reflection of what he could do. I see 2 wins as impressive restraint to not trade meaningless wins in a losing season at the expense of saving money for the future, developing our young talent, and securing a better draft position.

We set ourselves for a huge offseason in 2009. I don't know how Herm and Kuharich would have handled it. Perhaps they duff it. But that to me would have been the mark of Herms legacy, not the three years prior where he was trying to clean up vermeils messes. But he never got that chance which I'm okay with.

Fat Scott left a 2-14 team with significant salary cap space and the #1 overall pick for Dorsey/Reid.

Using your logic with Herm, do you give the same praise to Fat Scott's legacy?

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by KCChiefsFan88

Fat Scott left a 2-14 team with significant salary cap space and the #1 overall pick for Dorsey/Reid.

Using your logic with Herm, do you give the same praise to Fat Scott's legacy?

No. Pioli inherited a really damn good situation. He had an immaculate cap situation where Herm was given a giant credit card bill. He had a young roster to work with which has developmental upside, but also are easier to cut and move around. And he had four years and two top ten picks to do it. Sure, he had plenty of roster gaps to fill, but he had nothing whatsoever standing in his way from doing it.

Pioli had a significantly cleaner situation and one more year to build the team. At least Herm took a bad situation and left it clean. Pioli took a clean situation and barely advanced the puck while racking up some debt along the way.

[FloridaMan88]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

At least Herm took a bad situation and left it clean. Pioli took a clean situation and barely advanced the puck while racking up some debt along the way.

Herm didn't make it clean.

He saddled the next regime with a terrible QB situation that led to Matt Cassel.

He also saddled the next regime with a defensive line full of draft busts.

[Buehler445]

We are obviously not going to change each others' minds, so I'll quit after this. But the product on the field in 07 and 08 was a complete and utter ****ing catastrophe. And under no circumstances is that product anywhere near acceptable. Ever. And that's on Herm. You can sling shit at Vermeil all you want, but you say Herm did good with the personnel and if he had got dudes that can play, the product is infinitely better.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

And again, I don't know how you can claim he wrecked the franchise when he basically moved us from the oldest team in football with a lot of expensive dead weight contracts to the youngest team in football with $57m in cap space and the #3 pick. We were set up for a big offseason in 2009 which pioli squandered.

The objective of moving on from bad contracts should never ever end in the product on the field. Ever. The product was so bad on the field because he failed miserably to get dudes that could play. Then he doubled down on the fail by not being able coach his way out of a wet paper bag. That was a ****ing abortion. And he did it to my team.

And you keep touting the #3 pick as an accomplishment. It's not. It is a quantification of precisely how shitty we were. Go back and look at the top 10 I posted. There was nothing special about 3-10. The best is Raji and he's been anywhere from good to ineffective. And whoo hoo. $57M. No one single FA class is going to turn that around. So he didn't spend any money. He also wrecked the ****ing franchise.

Pioli was a ****stick, but he was not handed the keys to a ferrari.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

You see 2 wins as a reflection of what he could do. I see 2 wins as impressive restraint to not trade meaningless wins in a losing season at the expense of saving money for the future, developing our young talent, and securing a better draft position.

No wins are meaningless. I'll tell you again. Good teams don't draft high. You don't need good draft picks to get good talent. You need a good talent elevator which Herm was not. Even if we hit on every draft pick and spent the $57M all on good FA (which never happens to anyone, much less Herm) this still wasn't going to be a good team.

Developing young talent? **** that shit. They should have just held self guided practice. Those guys had no discipline, the worst technique in football. So yay, they got some snaps. They also got their heads caved in by guys that were actually talented and knew how to play the game.

Moreover the lockerroom was a cesspool because Herm had killed any will to win with those guys. So, no, I don't view those wins that he ****ed off due to absolute incompetence as meaningless. He wrecked the ****ing franchise.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

We set ourselves for a huge offseason in 2009. I don't know how Herm and Kuharich would have handled it. Perhaps they duff it. But that to me would have been the mark of Herms legacy, not the three years prior where he was trying to clean up vermeils messes. But he never got that chance which I'm okay with.

No the 3 years is on Herm. You try to prop him up by saying the 9-7 season was a point to how good he can be, he has to eat shit for the criminal negligence with which executed his job duties. Many other teams get from old to young without completely abandoning seasons from training camp. You can justify it whatever way you want, but Squirmin Herman mother****ing sack of **** Edwards failed tremendously at every single aspect of his job duties, including personnel.

**** Herm.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

We are obviously not going to change each others' minds, so I'll quit after this. But the product on the field in 07 and 08 was a complete and utter ****ing catastrophe. And under no circumstances is that product anywhere near acceptable. Ever. And that's on Herm. You can sling shit at Vermeil all you want, but you say Herm did good with the personnel and if he had got dudes that can play, the product is infinitely better.



The objective of moving on from bad contracts should never ever end in the product on the field. Ever. The product was so bad on the field because he failed miserably to get dudes that could play. Then he doubled down on the fail by not being able coach his way out of a wet paper bag. That was a ****ing abortion. And he did it to my team.

And you keep touting the #3 pick as an accomplishment. It's not. It is a quantification of precisely how shitty we were. Go back and look at the top 10 I posted. There was nothing special about 3-10. The best is Raji and he's been anywhere from good to ineffective. And whoo hoo. $57M. No one single FA class is going to turn that around. So he didn't spend any money. He also wrecked the ****ing franchise.

Pioli was a ****stick, but he was not handed the keys to a ferrari.



No wins are meaningless. I'll tell you again. Good teams don't draft high. You don't need good draft picks to get good talent. You need a good talent elevator which Herm was not. Even if we hit on every draft pick and spent the $57M all on good FA (which never happens to anyone, much less Herm) this still wasn't going to be a good team.

Developing young talent? **** that shit. They should have just held self guided practice. Those guys had no discipline, the worst technique in football. So yay, they got some snaps. They also got their heads caved in by guys that were actually talented and knew how to play the game.

Moreover the lockerroom was a cesspool because Herm had killed any will to win with those guys. So, no, I don't view those wins that he ****ed off due to absolute incompetence as meaningless. He wrecked the ****ing franchise.



No the 3 years is on Herm. You try to prop him up by saying the 9-7 season was a point to how good he can be, he has to eat shit for the criminal negligence with which executed his job duties. Many other teams get from old to young without completely abandoning seasons from training camp. You can justify it whatever way you want, but Squirmin Herman mother****ing sack of **** Edwards failed tremendously at every single aspect of his job duties, including personnel.

**** Herm.

A few things and I'll keep it short.

He didn't lose the locker room. At the end of 2008, we were keeping most of our losses at least close.

And there is such a thing as meaningless wins. You always try to win with what you have, but sometimes you make decisions that make your team worse short term to build for the long term. Herm could have brought in Pennington. Would that have made people happier? Because that gets you 4-6 wins. Croyle and Thigpen were terrible, but the one time in history we have a coach who insists on playing youth over mediocre veteran qbs... Yeah, it led to losses. But I'm still glad we made the call.

[2112]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

A few things and I'll keep it short.

He didn't lose the locker room. At the end of 2008, we were keeping most of our losses at least close.

And there is such a thing as meaningless wins. You always try to win with what you have, but sometimes you make decisions that make your team worse short term to build for the long term. Herm could have brought in Pennington. Would that have made people happier? Because that gets you 4-6 wins. Croyle and Thigpen were terrible, but the one time in history we have a coach who insists on playing youth over mediocre veteran qbs... Yeah, it led to losses. But I'm still glad we made the call.

Herm took a top 5 offense in 2005 (that he said he wouldnt mess with) and turned it into a carbon copy garbage predictable offense that the Jets had. the Jets won despite Herm. any drive that ends in a kick is a good drive.

How anybody can defend that guy after that Indy playoff game is beyond me. he was a fraud that got exposed and now hes out of football.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by D2112

Herm took a top 5 offense in 2005 (that he said he wouldnt mess with) and turned it into a carbon copy garbage predictable offense that the Jets had. the Jets won despite Herm. any drive that ends in a kick is a good drive.

How anybody can defend that guy after that Indy playoff game is beyond me. he was a fraud that got exposed and now hes out of football.

That was a terribly coached game. The Jets won despite Herm, but they still won. Many times. Again, I don't deal with exaggeration. Herm wasn't a good coach, but he wasn't terrible either. He was a. 500 mediocre coach who would find ways to repeatedly lose big games. As he did against indy. So I agree 2006 was a wasted opportunity and everyone has a right to be pissed.

And I think with 1 or 2 more years, he could have brought us back to 9-7. Not good enough in my book. But it would have completed the rebuild.

[bishop_74]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

That was a terribly coached game. The Jets won despite Herm, but they still won. Many times. Again, I don't deal with exaggeration. Herm wasn't a good coach, but he wasn't terrible either. He was a. 500 mediocre coach who would find ways to repeatedly lose big games. As he did against indy. So I agree 2006 was a wasted opportunity and everyone has a right to be pissed.

And I think with 1 or 2 more years, he could have brought us back to 9-7. Not good enough in my book. But it would have completed the rebuild.

[FloridaMan88]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

That was a terribly coached game. The Jets won despite Herm, but they still won. Many times. Again, I don't deal with exaggeration. Herm wasn't a good coach, but he wasn't terrible either. He was a. 500 mediocre coach who would find ways to repeatedly lose big games. As he did against indy. So I agree 2006 was a wasted opportunity and everyone has a right to be pissed.

And I think with 1 or 2 more years, he could have brought us back to 9-7. Not good enough in my book. But it would have completed the rebuild.

So why are you making such an effort to come to the defense of a .500/mediocre coach (using your words)?

Also Herm's career coaching record is 56-78... making him far from a ".500" head coach.

[FloridaMan88]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

A few things and I'll keep it short.

He didn't lose the locker room. At the end of 2008, we were keeping most of our losses at least close.

And there is such a thing as meaningless wins. You always try to win with what you have, but sometimes you make decisions that make your team worse short term to build for the long term. Herm could have brought in Pennington. Would that have made people happier? Because that gets you 4-6 wins. Croyle and Thigpen were terrible, but the one time in history we have a coach who insists on playing youth over mediocre veteran qbs... Yeah, it led to losses. But I'm still glad we made the call.

Losing to get high draft picks doesn't mean anything if you can't capitalize on those high draft picks.

Herm picked Glenn Dorsey... a.k.a. Ryan Sims the sequel with the 5th overall pick.