A loss that shakes: The Chiefs must prove they are not who they now appear to be

[Scorpion05]

Originally Posted by NJChiefsFan

I agree with both your points about the Chip Kelly affect and Mahomes sometimes not taking what is given to him. But if you watched this team all year you would see just how horrible the secondary is. The problem is that there are so many horrible breakdowns that a few tight coverages only helps so much.

Fair enough. I haven’t watched every game like you guys

I guess in some respects I’m comparing our defenses. Our ranking would be much worse if we didn’t sustain drives with the rushing attack and Russ. The thing is the team doesn’t care if Russ throws for 70 yards or 300, so long as we win

In comparison, I think Andy Reid sometimes falls too in love with the pass. And I think Mahomes is so confident in his amazing arm he wants to use it as often as possible. I’m not so sure Reid and Mahomes are okay with passing less and winning time of possession. Differing ideologies I guess. But I do believe your defense will benefit, even just a little, from more ball control. Just an opinion from a guy who wants the Chiefs to win it if we don’t

[MVChiefFan]

Originally Posted by Scorpion05

Fair enough. I haven’t watched every game like you guys

I guess in some respects I’m comparing our defenses. Our ranking would be much worse if we didn’t sustain drives with the rushing attack and Russ. The thing is the team doesn’t care if Russ throws for 70 yards or 300, so long as we win

In comparison, I think Andy Reid sometimes falls too in love with the pass. And I think Mahomes is so confident in his amazing arm he wants to use it as often as possible. I’m not so sure Reid and Mahomes are okay with passing less and winning time of possession. Differing ideologies I guess. But I do believe your defense will benefit, even just a little, from more ball control. Just an opinion from a guy who wants the Chiefs to win it if we don’t

Our defense is so bad that if we don’t score 40 points, we have almost no chance to win. Hell, we’re the first team in history to score 50 and lose. If we tried to play ball control we would be down 21-3 before we knew it. We have to strike quick and strike often. Unfortunately, it’s our only hope.

[Scorpion05]

Originally Posted by MVChiefFan

Our defense is so bad that if we don’t score 40 points, we have almost no chance to win. Hell, we’re the first team in history to score 50 and lose. If we tried to play ball control we would be down 21-3 before we knew it. We have to strike quick and strike often. Unfortunately, it’s our only hope.

Yea I disagree. Style of play and in game situations matter

The most dangerous offenses aren’t just the ones that can score 50. It’s the ones that can score on almost every drive, while methodically driving down the field. Eating away at the clock

Even if it means one less possession for the opposing teams offense, it changes the dynamic of the game. It would give your defense, especially your pass rush a chance to make the big play. I’ve seen some truly horrific defenses in my time watching football. That’s not what I saw yesterday. I saw a defense thats had a long season and was getting worn down quarter by quarter. Sometimes, a team who only needs 4-6 plays to score can affect a defense almost like a 3 and out can. Your defense is back on the field in no time. People always look at stats and numbers, but football is so complimentary in the way both the offense and the defense affect each other

For a team who throws the ball as amazingly as you guys do, you guys don’t leverage it as well at all imo. You could, and should be running the ball a lot more. It will mean less gaudy stats, maybe even less points for Mahomes. But in my opinion it will lead to more wins, especially in the post season. Passing is a lot more unpredictable than running. You can pass often and before you know it, a ball gets tipped, receiver drops or fumbles, Mahomes makes a mistake, or 3 and out and the clock stops. All of a sudden your defense is back out again. That’s actually what happened in one sequence last night. Quick 3 and out by you guys, and we ate up more clock, continued to wear out your defense, and scored

Ball control is the key to an offense as explosive as yours. The Greatest Show on Turf’s biggest strength was Marshall Faulk, in an era where teams still loved to run the ball. I just think you guys are in a situation where Andy Reid wants to drive his Ferrari Enzo(Mahomes) everyday. And that car will win you a lot of races. But the Enzo gets like 10 mpg. Take out the Toyota Hybrid every now and then and be smart about it. Just my take. Andy won’t change, but run the ball a lot more. The opportunity is there

[gold_and_red]

Originally Posted by Scorpion05

Yea I disagree. Style of play and in game situations matter

The most dangerous offenses aren’t just the ones that can score 50. It’s the ones that can score on almost every drive, while methodically driving down the field. Eating away at the clock

Even if it means one less possession for the opposing teams offense, it changes the dynamic of the game. It would give your defense, especially your pass rush a chance to make the big play. I’ve seen some truly horrific defenses in my time watching football. That’s not what I saw yesterday. I saw a defense thats had a long season and was getting worn down quarter by quarter. Sometimes, a team who only needs 4-6 plays to score can affect a defense almost like a 3 and out can. Your defense is back on the field in no time. People always look at stats and numbers, but football is so complimentary in the way both the offense and the defense affect each other

For a team who throws the ball as amazingly as you guys do, you guys don’t leverage it as well at all imo. You could, and should be running the ball a lot more. It will mean less gaudy stats, maybe even less points for Mahomes. But in my opinion it will lead to more wins, especially in the post season. Passing is a lot more unpredictable than running. You can pass often and before you know it, a ball gets tipped, receiver drops or fumbles, Mahomes makes a mistake, or 3 and out and the clock stops. All of a sudden your defense is back out again. That’s actually what happened in one sequence last night. Quick 3 and out by you guys, and we ate up more clock, continued to wear out your defense, and scored

Ball control is the key to an offense as explosive as yours. The Greatest Show on Turf’s biggest strength was Marshall Faulk, in an era where teams still loved to run the ball. I just think you guys are in a situation where Andy Reid wants to drive his Ferrari Enzo(Mahomes) everyday. And that car will win you a lot of races. But the Enzo gets like 10 mpg. Take out the Toyota Hybrid every now and then and be smart about it. Just my take. Andy won’t change, but run the ball a lot more. The opportunity is there

Solid post. I don't think Reid is going to change but like you already posted Reid can make up for the lack of running by calling for more short completed passes. It also depends on how patient Mahomes is. On the first series yesterday I thought there was an easy 1st down if he chose to simply keep running instead he tried a difficult deep ball to a single covered Robinson, 3 and out to start. Momentum is real, I doubt Reid will ever figure it out after 20 years but Mahomes might.

[MVChiefFan]

Originally Posted by Scorpion05

Yea I disagree. Style of play and in game situations matter

The most dangerous offenses aren’t just the ones that can score 50. It’s the ones that can score on almost every drive, while methodically driving down the field. Eating away at the clock

Even if it means one less possession for the opposing teams offense, it changes the dynamic of the game. It would give your defense, especially your pass rush a chance to make the big play. I’ve seen some truly horrific defenses in my time watching football. That’s not what I saw yesterday. I saw a defense thats had a long season and was getting worn down quarter by quarter. Sometimes, a team who only needs 4-6 plays to score can affect a defense almost like a 3 and out can. Your defense is back on the field in no time. People always look at stats and numbers, but football is so complimentary in the way both the offense and the defense affect each other

For a team who throws the ball as amazingly as you guys do, you guys don’t leverage it as well at all imo. You could, and should be running the ball a lot more. It will mean less gaudy stats, maybe even less points for Mahomes. But in my opinion it will lead to more wins, especially in the post season. Passing is a lot more unpredictable than running. You can pass often and before you know it, a ball gets tipped, receiver drops or fumbles, Mahomes makes a mistake, or 3 and out and the clock stops. All of a sudden your defense is back out again. That’s actually what happened in one sequence last night. Quick 3 and out by you guys, and we ate up more clock, continued to wear out your defense, and scored

Ball control is the key to an offense as explosive as yours. The Greatest Show on Turf’s biggest strength was Marshall Faulk, in an era where teams still loved to run the ball. I just think you guys are in a situation where Andy Reid wants to drive his Ferrari Enzo(Mahomes) everyday. And that car will win you a lot of races. But the Enzo gets like 10 mpg. Take out the Toyota Hybrid every now and then and be smart about it. Just my take. Andy won’t change, but run the ball a lot more. The opportunity is there

Yeah, your thoughts are very solid. I wish to God we could play that way. You’re also right about Andy not really buying into ball control. But, on the other side of the coin, if our defense would get a few three and outs, that would give them some rest. It’s just the darnedest thing to watch our defense either get ran over at five yards a pop, miss tackles, or get countless penalties.

[stevieray]

Originally Posted by Scorpion05

Yea I disagree. Style of play and in game situations matter

The most dangerous offenses aren’t just the ones that can score 50. It’s the ones that can score on almost every drive, while methodically driving down the field. Eating away at the clock

Even if it means one less possession for the opposing teams offense, it changes the dynamic of the game. It would give your defense, especially your pass rush a chance to make the big play. I’ve seen some truly horrific defenses in my time watching football. That’s not what I saw yesterday. I saw a defense thats had a long season and was getting worn down quarter by quarter. Sometimes, a team who only needs 4-6 plays to score can affect a defense almost like a 3 and out can. Your defense is back on the field in no time. People always look at stats and numbers, but football is so complimentary in the way both the offense and the defense affect each other

For a team who throws the ball as amazingly as you guys do, you guys don’t leverage it as well at all imo. You could, and should be running the ball a lot more. It will mean less gaudy stats, maybe even less points for Mahomes. But in my opinion it will lead to more wins, especially in the post season. Passing is a lot more unpredictable than running. You can pass often and before you know it, a ball gets tipped, receiver drops or fumbles, Mahomes makes a mistake, or 3 and out and the clock stops. All of a sudden your defense is back out again. That’s actually what happened in one sequence last night. Quick 3 and out by you guys, and we ate up more clock, continued to wear out your defense, and scored

Ball control is the key to an offense as explosive as yours. The Greatest Show on Turf’s biggest strength was Marshall Faulk, in an era where teams still loved to run the ball. I just think you guys are in a situation where Andy Reid wants to drive his Ferrari Enzo(Mahomes) everyday. And that car will win you a lot of races. But the Enzo gets like 10 mpg. Take out the Toyota Hybrid every now and then and be smart about it. Just my take. Andy won’t change, but run the ball a lot more. The opportunity is there

We were more like that with Kareem Hunt. He kept the defenses honest. I have no doubt that the last few games would have been different if he was playing.

[TwistedChief]

Originally Posted by Scorpion05

For a team who throws the ball as amazingly as you guys do, you guys don’t leverage it as well at all imo. You could, and should be running the ball a lot more.

As you know, we lost our basically All-Pro RB about a month ago. Team has been trying to re-establish its offensive identity/equilibrium since but has clearly leaned on Mahomes more as a result. So had we played you two months ago when our offense was firing on all cylinders, it looked a lot more like a symphony and it was leveraged to perfection. But with Hunt released, and with our back-up to him (Ware) who had at least a semi-similar style also out, we were relying upon a very different skillset in the backfield (more finesse). I think we just haven't figured out how to best utilize that.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Scorpion05

Yea I disagree. Style of play and in game situations matter

The most dangerous offenses aren’t just the ones that can score 50. It’s the ones that can score on almost every drive, while methodically driving down the field. Eating away at the clock

Even if it means one less possession for the opposing teams offense, it changes the dynamic of the game. It would give your defense, especially your pass rush a chance to make the big play. I’ve seen some truly horrific defenses in my time watching football. That’s not what I saw yesterday. I saw a defense thats had a long season and was getting worn down quarter by quarter. Sometimes, a team who only needs 4-6 plays to score can affect a defense almost like a 3 and out can. Your defense is back on the field in no time. People always look at stats and numbers, but football is so complimentary in the way both the offense and the defense affect each other

For a team who throws the ball as amazingly as you guys do, you guys don’t leverage it as well at all imo. You could, and should be running the ball a lot more. It will mean less gaudy stats, maybe even less points for Mahomes. But in my opinion it will lead to more wins, especially in the post season. Passing is a lot more unpredictable than running. You can pass often and before you know it, a ball gets tipped, receiver drops or fumbles, Mahomes makes a mistake, or 3 and out and the clock stops. All of a sudden your defense is back out again. That’s actually what happened in one sequence last night. Quick 3 and out by you guys, and we ate up more clock, continued to wear out your defense, and scored

Ball control is the key to an offense as explosive as yours. The Greatest Show on Turf’s biggest strength was Marshall Faulk, in an era where teams still loved to run the ball. I just think you guys are in a situation where Andy Reid wants to drive his Ferrari Enzo(Mahomes) everyday. And that car will win you a lot of races. But the Enzo gets like 10 mpg. Take out the Toyota Hybrid every now and then and be smart about it. Just my take. Andy won’t change, but run the ball a lot more. The opportunity is there

Not sure I entirely agree. We're all hung over from ball controlling Alex Smith. We've lost several games because Andy Reid chose to throw the ball sideways and abandoning our aggressive offense. While the Rams were aggressive and run heavy... Brady, brees, and rodgers have had many years in their career with barely a run game.

I think we need to learn to balance in runs and short checkdowns. But not in the name of ball control. Only just enough to take what the defense gives you and keep them off balance. Plus... We're not exactly scoring in 2 plays. We're still putting together a ton of long drives. We don't exhaust our defense the way most fast scoring offenses do. Our defense exhausts themselves because they can never get off the field.

[Scorpion05]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Not sure I entirely agree. We're all hung over from ball controlling Alex Smith. We've lost several games because Andy Reid chose to throw the ball sideways and abandoning our aggressive offense. While the Rams were aggressive and run heavy... Brady, brees, and rodgers have had many years in their career with barely a run game.

I think we need to learn to balance in runs and short checkdowns. But not in the name of ball control. Only just enough to take what the defense gives you and keep them off balance. Plus... We're not exactly scoring in 2 plays. We're still putting together a ton of long drives. We don't exhaust our defense the way most fast scoring offenses do. Our defense exhausts themselves because they can never get off the field.

How often would you guys say you win the time of possession battle? I mean outright win it, sometimes by as much as 10 minutes? I’m open to being corrected

There have been many high powered offenses over the years. You mentioned Tom Brady, Rodgers, and Brees. Well out of those 3, only Tom Brady has been to multiple Super Bowls. Remember Tom’s record breaking year, they lost in the big game. Blame the flukey catch, or whatever it is. But the Patriots great winning years came through complimentary football.

That’s my point. You guys are aggressive sure, and score a lot of points. But that’s not necessarily “winning” football. Especially not in the playoffs. Why are the Saints so great in the last 2 years? Because they have Kamara and Ingram(and rely on Brees efficiency. Ditto for the Seahawks this year). Otherwise despite Brees’ gaudy stats in past years, they’d lose some games. Why did the Vikings make it to the NFC championship? Because of great defense, aided by ball control, tempo, and Keenum making key plays. Under Kirk Cousins, they got too pass happy and their defense, with mostly the same roster isn’t the same. That’s not a coincidence

And the Eagles? There’s a reason they got Jay Ajayi last year. At times they were very balanced..and leveraged the run much better than Andy Reid does at times

You can have a great Quarterback. But Aaron Rodgers is proof that numbers aren’t everything to team winning. Some people critique the Packers talent, but teams with less talent throughout history have done more. The more things change the more they stay the same. Maybe I’m wrong, but I just think that unless Reid changes some of his ways, you’ll waste Mahomes’ talent

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Scorpion05

How often would you guys say you win the time of possession battle? I mean outright win it, sometimes by as much as 10 minutes? I’m open to being corrected

There have been many high powered offenses over the years. You mentioned Tom Brady, Rodgers, and Brees. Well out of those 3, only Tom Brady has been to multiple Super Bowls. Remember Tom’s record breaking year, they lost in the big game. Blame the flukey catch, or whatever it is. But the Patriots great winning years came through complimentary football.

That’s my point. You guys are aggressive sure, and score a lot of points. But that’s not necessarily “winning” football. Especially not in the playoffs. Why are the Saints so great in the last 2 years? Because they have Kamara and Ingram(and rely on Brees efficiency. Ditto for the Seahawks this year). Otherwise despite Brees’ gaudy stats in past years, they’d lose some games. Why did the Vikings make it to the NFC championship? Because of great defense, aided by ball control, tempo, and Keenum making key plays. Under Kirk Cousins, they got too pass happy and their defense, with mostly the same roster isn’t the same. That’s not a coincidence

And the Eagles? There’s a reason they got Jay Ajayi last year. At times they were very balanced..and leveraged the run much better than Andy Reid does at times

You can have a great Quarterback. But Aaron Rodgers is proof that numbers aren’t everything to team winning. Some people critique the Packers talent, but teams with less talent throughout history have done more. The more things change the more they stay the same. Maybe I’m wrong, but I just think that unless Reid changes some of his ways, you’ll waste Mahomes’ talent

Rsalize you're talking to a fan base that has played Marty ball for decades. Non stop except for the vermeil years. Weve seen the flaws in Alex smith's game management style.

We aren't doing bad on time of possession. Mahomes extends drives. I don't have the numbers in front of me but I'd bet we're pretty consistently getting at least 6 plays in per drive. And we typically use up the whole clock before we snap the ball. We're losing some TOP battles but that's because no joke, our defense is consistently staying on the field for 10 plays a game.

Mahomes is at his best when he freelances. Reid has already dialed him back. When reid dials back mahomes too much yiu can tell it doesn't fit our style. We go three and out, which does nothing to extend drives.

I get what you're saying. But it's not a good fit for mahomes.

[Scorpion05]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Rsalize you're talking to a fan base that has played Marty ball for decades. Non stop except for the vermeil years. Weve seen the flaws in Alex smith's game management style.

We aren't doing bad on time of possession. Mahomes extends drives. I don't have the numbers in front of me but I'd bet we're pretty consistently getting at least 6 plays in per drive. And we typically use up the whole clock before we snap the ball. We're losing some TOP battles but that's because no joke, our defense is consistently staying on the field for 10 plays a game.

Mahomes is at his best when he freelances. Reid has already dialed him back. When reid dials back mahomes too much yiu can tell it doesn't fit our style. We go three and out, which does nothing to extend drives.

I get what you're saying. But it's not a good fit for mahomes.

Well yea, of course Marty Ball has its flaws. In order for Marty Ball to truly reach its peak form, you need an elite, efficient QB

But every team has its shortcomings. My opinion is that the Chiefs shortcomings may end up holding them back in the end:

The Chiefs are currently ranked 25th in time of possession on offense. Guess what? That’s ranked the worst among current playoff teams. What’s interesting is that you guys don’t make up for it by avoiding penalties, or turnovers. Your defense spends a LOT of time on the field. It’s clearly not just about them being unable to get off the field. In fact, statistically the Chiefs are not even the worst team on 3rd down defensively. There are at least 7 teams worse, statistically. And most of those teams haven’t had to face as many scrimmage plays.

Give your defense at least one less possession to deal with, and that’s the difference between a heartbreaking loss and a great win.

Kareem Hunt or not, when I watched the Chargers game and saw that you guys couldn’t run out the clock, it reminded me of all those times Andy Reid’s teams would struggle to convert running on 3rd & 1. Andy Reid’s teams are so pass happy that at times when you need to run out the clock, dominate time of possession, it fails. Like a Center trying to shoot a 3 when they dunk 70% of the time

You have to compliment your strengths. If you don’t, your defense will continue to struggle. The Saints, Seahawks, Ravens, Patriots, Bears, Chargers, Rams, and Eagles are all ranked in the top 10 in time of possession. What does that tell you? Look, maybe I’m wrong, and the Chiefs offense is so unbelievable that you’ll overcome it. But from where I’m standing, that’s a problem. Sure, hold your defense accountable. But your offense isn’t helping your defense either.

[NJChiefsFan]

Originally Posted by Scorpion05

Fair enough. I haven’t watched every game like you guys

I guess in some respects I’m comparing our defenses. Our ranking would be much worse if we didn’t sustain drives with the rushing attack and Russ. The thing is the team doesn’t care if Russ throws for 70 yards or 300, so long as we win

In comparison, I think Andy Reid sometimes falls too in love with the pass. And I think Mahomes is so confident in his amazing arm he wants to use it as often as possible. I’m not so sure Reid and Mahomes are okay with passing less and winning time of possession. Differing ideologies I guess. But I do believe your defense will benefit, even just a little, from more ball control. Just an opinion from a guy who wants the Chiefs to win it if we don’t

It's a fine line. Part of the intimidation and explosion of this offense is being aggressive. That being said I agree that, like yesterdays game, there are situations where running the ball does a couple things. It protects the defense for a minute, gains yards and first downs because the opposing team is basically handing you 5 yard games, and it eventually forces the other team to adjust.